I'm interested in getting input on a couple of issues that came up on the DS mailing list (as well as at a recent DS curry evening with my new group).
1) Under the current 3e rules from athas.org, should a defiler be able to decide on a case-by-case basis whether to defile or not when casting a spell? The current rules say that a preserver can choose to defile but a defiler cannot choose to preserve, once he has become a full defiler. Given that defiling represents an mechanical advantage and not a drawback, is there a solid mechanical reason why a defiler should not be allowed to preserve? Dave Noonan's defiling rules, for example, use a system that incorporates something like this. Should it be allowed? Should the defiler be able to preserve at decreased efficiency? Should the defiler be required to make a Will save to overcome the temptation to defile if he wishes to preserve instead? Should it be a feat? Should it be ruled out altogether? Thoughts?
2) In later 2e DS supplements the idea was introduced that a defiler could defile during spell preparation instead of during spell casting. Does this have a place under the current 3e rules set? How would it best be represented? By a feat? Or is it too unbalancing, given that it allows the defiler to choose advantageous terrain in which to prepare his spells? Thoughts?
For a preserver to learn defiling magic (its ways); that makes sense if they dabbled in it and then developed their current morals. IE: Guilt trip. Otherwise, why would a preserver teach a preserver prospect defiling magic? And if they didn't dabble, then they should be excluded from defiler magic due to being bias (ignorant).
For a defiler to learn preserver magic (its ways); that makes sense if they dabbled in it and found it too limiting, so they turned to the quicker, more selfish path. IE: Power trip. And if they didn't dabble, then they should be excluded from preserver magic due to being bias (ignorant).
Point it, the feat should exist as background material for a character. And with that said, making a character burn a feat kind of makes sense. As long as it is has that "You may only take this feat at character creation" prerequisite. And if a wizard character can't justify knowledge of both magic creation methods (possess the feat), then they can only use the way that was originally taught to them. Simple. And to get this feat to work smoothly, I'd create a table/chart that includes penalties for using the lesser of two forms when drawing magic. The lesser form being the path that the character turned their back to. An increased chance that the spell fails. The spell severely backfires. Spells cast at X amount of levels lower. Lowered spell save DC. Stuff like that.
Granted, I've never played a wizard before, and I am still adjusting to third edition rules (my new group is 1E-on, 2E-off), so my ideas may not make all that much sense. If they're at all related to the topic of this thread.
Defiling Rules
I don't have time right now to get into everything that was said, but I did have another idea about the whole situation and you can expect a much longer post from me later.
Even if a Defilier cannot gather spell energy when he prepares spells normally. he can when he makes scrolls, thusly there is a way to circumvent defiling every time you cast a spell (kinda).
Maybe something along the lines that enabled them to defile at the time of memorization a number of spell levels equal to his arcane caster level (maybe even half caster level) + his Int mod per 24 hour period.
Just remember the Veilled Alliance in all this. How can the poor guys be expected to weed out the Evil Defilers if they can just decide not to Defile for the Green Test?
To bad for the VA. They should have a better screening process for their applicants :evillaugh
As far as defilers go, no, they did not have the option of going the other route (ie. preserving). It just wasn't possible. You can always be good and go to evil, but going the other route is close to impossible short of starting over again.
That's the way I've always run it. Take it or leave it and all that. ;)
Now I remember in the old rules in "Defilers and Preservers" that a defiler could become a preserver again, but would lose a great deal of their power for doing so. So it stands to reason that it is possible for them to learn to cast spells without defiling all the time. I think you lost half your levels by becoming a Preserver so that should be the effective limit for casting spells without defiling: what a preserver of half your level would be capable of (including effective caster level). Like a lot of people have been saying, I think a Will save sounds very reasonable as well. It does mention many times that part of the whole defiling process is the addiction of the rush of power, something that would be hard to resist. And I'm not sure if there are any, but any spell that is normally defiler only could most certainly not be cast in this way.
As for the idea of a Defiler passing the green test by not defiling when he casts a spell, I have a few ideas. First, the wizards of the vield alliance could require the test taker to draw the energy from the plants during the casting of the spell and use detect magic to watch the process. Second, you could rule that; even if a defiler could avoid defiling in some manner when casting his spells, the test administers could still tell the difference when viewing the process via Detect Magic, because of the "black aura surrounding him" or some other crap like that. If you wanted to you could even make it so there was still a little damage done to the plant life, just not to the same extent as normal: just some wilting and evaporation of water not full out circle of black ash, but definately enough to still tell the difference between a Defiler and a Perserver.
Now I did have another idea about circumventing defiling in a limited way for defilers in the city, where they could be readily discovered. Essentially it would be a feat or class feature that would grant you the ability to perform a ritual sacrifice in order to draw your spell energy from a living creature rather than all the plant life and soil around you. My idea was to have it take maybe, 1 minute or 10 minutes per spell level to preform, so it couldn't be used as a quick way to cast spells, but would still be available as an alternate means so that defiler living in the city could stay in town an avoid detection (if defilers had to sneak out of town every time they wanted to cast a spell, you'd think the Templars would get rather suspicious of their frequent comings and goings). The amount of spell power that you could drawn from an animal could be dependant on either the animals size or hit dice.
I'll leave it at that for now to gather responses and give other people a chance to post their ideas on the topic :D .
Undoubtably there would be similar spells out there. Think of defiling as the Dark Side, however: once you go there, it's damn near impossible to come back without giving all your power up (and I do mean all of it: I don't allow my players to flip-flop without a serious price). And let's face it - the kind of person that becomes a defiler does so for the power.
The spell you are talking about sounds very useful. Maybe it could be made into a metamagic feat for the new rules.
There were a few spells that would allow defilers to extend the radius of their defiling out so that it did not take from their immediate area. Don't have the book handy because, once again, I'm packing, but I believe it was Dragon Kings (a little help?).
I believe its in Defilers & Preservers, the energy conduit spell. You cast orb of power on an obsidian orb, followed by energy conduit, then you turn in a circle to locate the closest, most fertile patch of land. The defiling occurs at a distance.
And before some Star Wars war is waged on these boards, it was a loose association, not an exact fit. I've seen the movie, but I've never read the books or followed the history or any of that. In short, my thought is simply that defiling is as corrupting as it is addictive. The people that choose that life eventually can't stop. In the lower levels, I'd consider the ability to do a Sadira-esque flop and switch back and forth a few times as they learn to control the magic. In short, Preserving really comes down to control: how much life do you take to cast your spell? Defilers don't care, they simply take what they need and whatever else they can - they're addicted to the power and the energy brought by defiling. I think you'd find as many defilers giving up "the life" as you would heroin addicts (willingly) giving up their addiction.
I think that was it.
And before some Star Wars war is waged on these boards, it was a loose association, not an exact fit. I've seen the movie, but I've never read the books or followed the history or any of that. In short, my thought is simply that defiling is as corrupting as it is addictive. The people that choose that life eventually can't stop. In the lower levels, I'd consider the ability to do a Sadira-esque flop and switch back and forth a few times as they learn to control the magic. In short, Preserving really comes down to control: how much life do you take to cast your spell? Defilers don't care, they simply take what they need and whatever else they can - they're addicted to the power and the energy brought by defiling. I think you'd find as many defilers giving up "the life" as you would heroin addicts (willingly) giving up their addiction.
Exactly what Dawnstealer said.
This is WAY off topic, but as of the most recent Star Wars books, it has become understood that there is fundamentally no difference between the Light and Dark sides of the force, it is only in how the Force is used that these notations become valid. :D
Thats only according to Vegere(sp?). I, for one, am not buying that
Any thoughts on the idea?
The combination of the ability to use scrolls and the aforementioned Distance Razing feat mostly take care of the original conceptual dillema, but what does everybody think of my idea of animal sacrifice... I know it wouldn't be in every Defiler's style, but the SKs are able to draw on animal life, so why not other defilers?
Any thoughts on the idea?
Largely because the SK's are SK's and other defilers aren't...
One way around it would require a special spell and an obsidian ball created especially for that purpose (to drain life), much like dragon magic. Of course, the player would not be able to cast psionic enchantments (10th+ level spells), but they would be able to drain life.
Something along these lines might explain Nok's cain, which had the ability to drain life even though Nok was clearly not a dragon. The user could choose to sacrifice their own levels to power higher-level spells or they could store energy from other sources (the aforementioned pets, children, virgins, whatever). That's my two cps.
Largely because the SK's are SK's and other defilers aren't...
Right, well thats not enough of a reason to resistrict the ability completely. Does it really disrupt the balance or feel of the game to have a few defilers who can draw energy from people or animals under very restricted circumstances (ie, In a specialy prepared space with wards and focuses and requiring an elaborate ritual and the death of the creature or person in question) its actually much less powerful of an ability than the Necromant or Cerulean's ability to draw on an alternate source.
SKs have to set up focuses in order to draw power from animals as well (which is why the arenas are so important to them). The SK would still have much greater power and ability to draw on animal life (I believe for Psionic Enchantments you need to draw on both the life force and minds of your sacrifices) and a similar set of focuses could have to be set for other defilers to do the same.
I can accept this idea as not going into cannon, but seriously would anyone else be interested in using a system like this in their game. There is no harm in options and I'd be more than willing to work out the details of the idea for anyone whose interested.
Why not?
I was just about to try and work black/cult/orgy magic into an idea I had brewing in a thread separate from this one, and I'd be up for throwing some bits into a thread involving such a subject.
Even so, if somethig like this were possible, the SKs would be doing it all the time instead of destroying their surrounding crop lands and forests and so on.
I see what you are saying, but I don't think that the SKs do draw their energy from the surrounding crop lands and forests, except for maybe when they go to war (and then it would be on the crops and forests surrounding the cities of other SKs). SKs are able to and do draw their power from the Trees of Life that they have surrounding their palaces and from the life force of people killed in their arenas (which is why every Socerer-King has an arena and why both Kalid-ma and Kalak used their arenas to gather energy for their accelerated transformations).
I think all the destruction of the Cleansing wars and other wars waged since then along with the defilment caused by the defilers of nomadic tribes and raiders is what is responsible for the desolation of the planet. Oh and add to that both Kalid-ma's and Borys' animalistic periods (although Kalad-ma's was cut short) after they underwent their accelerated transformations.
If the SKs had to draw energy from the surrounding crop lands and forests, there wouldn't be verdant areas surrounding their cities, but rings of desolation.
Not to split hairs with a chainsaw, but the only focus an SK requires to drain life force is an obsidian orb, which they attune to themselves. They can draw on life force anytime, anywhere, as illustrated in the Prism Pentad when Abalach-Re drains a legion of her own troops to power a spell in the battle against the Dwarves of Kled and Sadira. I believe it states in Dragon Kings that they can drain life wherever they want, too. Arenas may be convenient places to discretely (or not so discretely, like Kalak!) drain life energy, but they are by no means required.
Thank You! I actually appreciate your spliting hairs in this case. It strengthens my position. Weaker Defilers could still be required to have specially prepared space in order to draw energy and it could still take them much more time to do so... thusly this ability would be a weaker precursor to the SK's ability.
And your input is welcome and appreciated Crimson Ghost. What thread/idea are you refering to?
*scratches head* OKIt's a defiling thread - of course it did ;)...
So are you saying the thread was Defiled?
Few things:
Right, well thats not enough of a reason to resistrict the ability completely. Does it really disrupt the balance or feel of the game to have a few defilers who can draw energy from people or animals under very restricted circumstances (ie, In a specialy prepared space with wards and focuses and requiring an elaborate ritual and the death of the creature or person in question) its actually much less powerful of an ability than the Necromant or Cerulean's ability to draw on an alternate source.
Magic users can use obsidian orbs as a lense, even if they aren't dragons. At least, I believe that was what was originally intended in the Prism Pentad. Proof lies in the final pages of Verdant Passage: (Sadira) "Obsidian isn't magical, it's just a tool. Like any tool, it's only as powerful as the person using it." It goes on to state that only dragons can use it to pull life-energy from animals and people, but that doesn't mean a lesser magic user couldn't put it to use to a lesser degree (following the tool analogy).
I'd say you could certainly use it in your own campaign, but don't expect anything official.
On to the next bit:
I see what you are saying, but I don't think that the SKs do draw their energy from the surrounding crop lands and forests, except for maybe when they go to war (and then it would be on the crops and forests surrounding the cities of other SKs).
Actually, all SKs whose cities have been detailed all have Trees of Life in their gardens. They aren't there just for show - the SK uses them to power their spells. They can't always be draining their subjects, after all. Weakened subjects is bad for business.