Basically, I would like to confirm If anyone else ran into the same issues or obstacles that I did.
Did you play in DA or did you DM it?
With that in mind it would be nice to have at least some write-up of Dregoth. (But I guess as this topic is so hot, I won't be getting any anytime soon).
Anyway I am quite sure that my group will retreat (they know they won't be able to take him down -- as they played through the City by the Silt Sea adventure). ;) But I guess they will try at least to distract him for a few rounds before retreating.
I will DM it soon! Though as my group averages level 23, I am quite sure that they will probably like to pay Dregoth a short visit at the south gate. And I am not so sure if the suggestion about taking him on in the adventure (to just kill the PCs) would be still valid for their level.
Well, that wasn't even an option with the group I DM for. They are only 15th.
Even still, as 15th level they blew thru pretty much eveything in part 1 of DA short of Dregoth himself.
I DM'ed.
Now did you find that most of the encounters weren't that challenging?
I understand that I could of "beefed up" the encounters, but even then, the dray didn't seem to offer the PCs any sort of resistance short of overwhelming them with sheer numbers.
I'm just concerned that the encounters for rest of DA are going to follow the same suit.
Now did you find that most of the encounters weren't that challenging?
I understand that I could of "beefed up" the encounters, but even then, the dray didn't seem to offer the PCs any sort of resistance short of overwhelming them with sheer numbers.
I DMed this some time ago now and made many comments.
However my players porvided some feedback which I never got around to posting.
Before that I should say that I wanted to let my PCs try to 'break' the game (since I was advertising it as a sort of one shot play test) so I a) recruited gamist players, and b) let them use the "Complete" books to pick semi-appropriate prestige classes (the darksun prestige class doc was available at the time). I also let them have appropriate levels of magic for their level as recommended by the DMG.
After finishing, my players universally agreed that none of the encounters were really challenging for the following reasons:
*NPC spell selection was dubious (their words not mine) at best. Spellcasters didn't have see invisibility or true sight prepared, many had levels in non casting classes (limiting their highest level spell) The nature of the adventure meant that spell casters all had the same sorts of spells memorised, this allowed for their tactics to become much more predictable.
*Since the magical support wasn't there, the fighters were simply so much walking XP. Entangle, web etc were used to pacify the warriors, then the spell casters were overwhelmed, then the warriors dealt with. This occured in almost every fight.
*NPC opponents had little to no magical gear to keep them in the fight (a potion fruit each (flying, haste, bulls strength, cure serious, enlarge etc) could have made the fights much more interesting.
*Fights were written quite dully, as most simply listed numbers appearing not unique tactics they would try. This was left entirely up to the DM which they felt was poor writing.
*Several encounters were with things of much lower EL than the PCs, the art thieves for instance. These took up space in the document without really adding to overal threat level. The Merchant House compound was only slightly better with a bunch of fighters present but no supernatural support, or inbuilt house defences.
Mostly they complained about the repetitive nature of the fights. This made the experience more monotonous and thus less fun. They didn't mind the sheer number of hostile encounters, but they wanted a bunch of fights with a wide variety of foes each using different tactics not "another bunch of elite dray footsoldiers with a Dray psion pops around the corner" type thing.
It was just brutal. I actually felt bad for the dray.
The huge battle at the end was a rough encounter to run as well. The map was great but it just didn't help in running that fight. The PCs were to focused on the advancing dray as whole vs the individual groups of dray charging them. And the commander at the end of the "big fight" was taken down in one round by the party's mul ranger/fighter/knight of the claw. That was a HUGE let down for me.
If I were to do it over, I'd bulk up the dray encounters by doubling their number and advancing the HD of the Kalin rider's mounts.
Kick 'em in the junk
The user of this feat aims a well-placed and well-timed kick directly to the "midsection" of their target. The target will double over in pain (if male), throwing up, head pounding, trying to catch their breath. There is no save - it hurts that bad. This attack always goes first.
Prerequisites: Dray; preferably one who likes to fight dirty.
Benefit: Opponent, if male, is incompacitated for the duration of the encounter. Any males in the party must make a Fortitude (DC18) check or be overcome with sympathetic pain and unable to act for 1d4 turns.
but I'm very interested how those encounters will convert over to 3e.Just remember that Dray are not semi-intelligent: they are very intelligent. Think about how you would defend places, fight the PCs, defend yourself against the PCs. Add to this the knowledge and power of the second most powerful dragon known on Athas and you can have a pretty devious encounter even with low-level dray.
I agree however, that is not apparent from the adventure as written.
I don't want to acquire an adventure and then have to write a bunch of interesting fights. I want to get an adventure and dive write in, I want most of the work done for me.
Another thing I just thought of, think of magical devices that create areas of anti-magic - those web spells suddenly won't work.
Yes that would be nice.
However, as written the monsters have little to no magic. THis is my major gripe with the adventure. To survive against a party of teen-level PCs an NPC needs his allotted amount of magic gear or else he is a dead man walking.
What about Kalids, etc..
My PCs loved the improv random encounter where the Kalid riders charged from invisibility from nearby roof tops. But that sort of stuff is not 'by the book' which is how I wanted to run the adventure.
If you have a brighter bunch of PCs that are good at working out tactics, you have to up the smarts of their adverseries. Not cheat, but just think a bit deeper beyond what the adventure encounter has set up.
You see, unlike you I expect better from the adventure. Particularly because it is a high level adventure. If I am to anticipate save or dies, teleport raiding, PCs polymorphing into Braxats, commune spells etc than I expect some help. I don't want to write this stuff. I want to refer to a page in the adventure.
If the power level was toned right done (by say subtracting 5 levels off of everything) than I would feel easier about the amount of improvisation necessary to successfuly run the adventure.
The huge battle at the end was a rough encounter to run as well. The map was great but it just didn't help in running that fight.
Total agreement, very pretty but ultimately useless.
My players remarked that the elves should be playing ninja in the back streets rather than defending an open square. That barricading themselves in a bunch of buildings was tactically more sound than staying where they were, in an open plaza. Open space was better for the bad guys not the Elves.
The PCs were to focused on the advancing dray as whole vs the individual groups of dray charging them. And the commander at the end of the "big fight" was taken down in one round by the party's mul ranger/fighter/knight of the claw. That was a HUGE let down for me.
I think mine lasted the right sort of time (ie 3-4 rounds) but only because I gave him appropriate levels of gear for a 15th level NPC and gave him the effects of Defiling Regeneration the psionic enchantment, ie I cheated.
I was then only disappointed in his damage output personally. Double weapons may look cool, but they suck in terms of damage.
If I were to do it over, I'd bulk up the dray encounters by doubling their number and advancing the HD of the Kalin rider's mounts.
I did double the dray numbers the PCs had to fight (and threw in some spellchuckers in with the second wave too) and my PCs still did pretty much okay. I think the worst injury was the cerebramancer got feebleminded late in the game.
Another thing I just thought of, think of magical devices that create areas of anti-magic - those web spells suddenly won't work.
What about this? (Its preliminary work and the pricing may be wrong...)
Occluding Standard: The sorcerer-monarchs and their defiler lackeys have developed these army standards to rob enemy armies of the advantage of spellcasters. These standards are usually entrusted to units with mindbender and warrior troops.
For an occluding standard to be effective, it must be affixed to a two-handed hafted weapon such as a halberd or a lance. Once per day, the standard can produce a field preventing the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, and which is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. The field functions like an antimagic field with a 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on the standard, and once activated lasts for 110 minutes or until dismissed by the standard bearer.
Moderate abjuration; CL 11th; Craft Wondrous Item, widened antimagic field; Price 23,760 Cp; Weight 1 lb.
I was just voicing my concerns and in doing so hoping to help others who plan on running this for their home games with some advice and tips.
The huge battle at the end was a rough encounter to run as well. The map was great but it just didn't help in running that fight.
Noticed this, too. Thankfully, I tweaked it before I ran it and it worked out fine. It did take some heavy modification, though.
What about this? (Its preliminary work and the pricing may be wrong...)
Good start.
However, as written the monsters have little to no magic. THis is my major gripe with the adventure. To survive against a party of teen-level PCs an NPC needs his allotted amount of magic gear or else he is a dead man walking.
Correct, but the preferred class of a Dray is Wizard.
My PCs loved the improv random encounter where the Kalid riders charged from invisibility from nearby roof tops. But that sort of stuff is not 'by the book' which is how I wanted to run the adventure.
But is how you personalize the adventure to your players likes and dislikes: my point.
You see, unlike you I expect better from the adventure.
To this, I'll respond with this clever emoticon:
If I am to anticipate save or dies, teleport raiding, PCs polymorphing into Braxats, commune spells etc than I expect some help. I don't want to write this stuff. I want to refer to a page in the adventure.
And it is tactics like this that specific things cannot be written into an adventure. EVERY player group is going to approach it differently. There is absolutely no way to predict what every player in every group will do, so you lay down the basics (a starting point) and let GMs take it from there. That's what GMs are supposed to do, otherwise you might as well just make a recording of the adventure and play right along with your PCs.
I And it is tactics like this that specific things cannot be written into an adventure. EVERY player group is going to approach it differently. There is absolutely no way to predict what every player in every group will do, so you lay down the basics (a starting point) and let GMs take it from there. That's what GMs are supposed to do, otherwise you might as well just make a recording of the adventure and play right along with your PCs.
I agree with most of what you said, but written adventures need to be somewhat accurate when it comes to challenging a party. An adventure that states "for character levels blah-thru-blah" should already be semi challenging without the DM majorly altering entire encounters for PCs who are the appropriate level. I can see this if a DM were running an adventure for PCs well over the suggested level of play, but not for parties that are.
I'm stating this more in regards to other pre-gen adventures and not DA specifically. I understand that DA was originally written with 2e characters in mind and appreciate that athas.org has converted it to 3.5 while still staying somewhat true to the original manuscript.
My group struggled against the dray, but they didn't include an arcane spellcaster or psion. In melee combat the dray are fierce with good use of spells such as divine favor and divine power and feats. The PCs had to flee the final battle.
My group consisted of:
human templar of Hamanu - the glorious leader "freeing" Raam from tyranny and such
elf elf paragon/fighter/wizard/duelist - dex fighter who could polymorph
half-giant druid/ - ruthless defiler-hunter who could wildshape into a braxat and so served as the party tank
human wizard/psion/cerebramancer - mobile artilery platform
So everyone of my players had magical spells of some kind.
The Braxat (he never left that form) had fun with a throwing sap until I asked him nicely to use a spiked chain instead.
The cerebramancer totally tore apart anything and everything until he got feebleminded in the final fight.
This may be the reason for the very different results that occured.
Correct, but the preferred class of a Dray is Wizard.
Missing your point here? Are you saying the dray should have on average more wizards running around? That does not seem to be what the adventure is telling me. The only stats listed is for a 12th(?) level defiler, and these guys only appear after a bit or so I recall the adventure stating.
To incorporate your point better, swapping a few levels of many of the dray for 1 or 3 levels of wizard would a) give the dray access to a lot of low level buff spells (shield, enlarge and bulls strength anybody?), and b) give them the ability to use wands and scrolls (which could be hilarious if the damn Dray were given any magic gear at all).
And it is tactics like this that specific things cannot be written into an adventure. EVERY player group is going to approach it differently. There is absolutely no way to predict what every player in every group will do, so you lay down the basics (a starting point) and let GMs take it from there. That's what GMs are supposed to do, otherwise you might as well just make a recording of the adventure and play right along with your PCs.
A paragraph on what sorts of stuff can be gleaned from commune spells and similar divinations and another on responses to teleport raiding is not much to ask for, surely? These are not very specific things, these are the sorts of things that standard mid-teen level characters regularly do when they have an appropriate level arcane and diven spell caster in the party. These are also not addressed in the adventure, hence the complaint.
I understand that DA was originally written with 2e characters in mind and appreciate that athas.org has converted it to 3.5 while still staying somewhat true to the original manuscript.
I remain doubful that staying true to the original manuscript on many points was the best decision. But since I ain't producing anything (beyond criticisms) I will leave it be.
Anoch-Mul ranger/fighter/ knight of the claw (PrC for followers of Taraskir)
Creed-Mul gladiator/mul paragon (dudes sporting a freaking 28 Str!)
Slava-Half-elf ranger/bard/ Way Blessed Template (super wild talent template)
Ruk-Halfling psion kineticist
Jessix-Elf rouge/wizard/arcane trickster
Mannon-Human cleric of air
Rage-aurumvorax companion of Creed
Ruve-Ruve companion of Anoch
All average around 15th level. These were pretty much the characters/players I DMed for all thru 2e.
This may be the reason for the very different results that occured.
That is a very magic-heavy group for any campaign world, but especially for Dark Sun. Like Sysane, my group consisted mostly of non-magical classes, although one was a psion and one was the token cleric. Spellcasters in my campaigns have the bad habit of casting their spells in the wrong place and being stoned by the local populace. :D
While I don't know them personally, it appears that these players are munchkins and enjoy steamrolling opponents. I guess that brings up another question: did they have fun or were they rolling their eyes when they slaughtered the Dray?
To incorporate your point better, swapping a few levels of many of the dray for 1 or 3 levels of wizard would a) give the dray access to a lot of low level buff spells (shield, enlarge and bulls strength anybody?), and b) give them the ability to use wands and scrolls (which could be hilarious if the damn Dray were given any magic gear at all).
You got it: this was my point.
A paragraph on what sorts of stuff can be gleaned from commune spells and similar divinations and another on responses to teleport raiding is not much to ask for, surely? These are not very specific things, these are the sorts of things that standard mid-teen level characters regularly do when they have an appropriate level arcane and diven spell caster in the party. These are also not addressed in the adventure, hence the complaint.
Agreed: that would be a relatively simple solution.
What about this? (Its preliminary work and the pricing may be wrong...)
Good start.
Where would you like to see it go, if this is a start?
Anyone think such an item, or a different one, might make a difference in the adventure?
That is a very magic-heavy group for any campaign world, but especially for Dark Sun. Like Sysane, my group consisted mostly of non-magical classes, although one was a psion and one was the token cleric. Spellcasters in my campaigns have the bad habit of casting their spells in the wrong place and being stoned by the local populace. :D.
Hey, that is what my PCs wanted to play with. I personally thought they needed better tanks, the Druid kept running out of Hit points, and the dex fighter took too long to prep for combat (5 rounds I think before he was ready to wade into a battle?). As for mob justice, a) my players weren't foolish enough to defile where anybody who cared was around and b) most of the commoners were distracted hiding from the Dray.
While I don't know them personally, it appears that these players are munchkins and enjoy steamrolling opponents. I guess that brings up another question: did they have fun or were they rolling their eyes when they slaughtered the Dray?.
I recruited them to test the adventure mechanically as I had no Darksun game running at the time so couldn't test the more RP related bits. My players were all primarily gamists as a result, ie they play RPGs to win in favour of story development or character portrayal. This helped me acheive my goal rather than hindered it.
They too frequently thought many of the encounters were flawed (too low EL on some, not enough support on others, too much 'more of the same thing' in others etc).
They also agreed that the adventure premise was largely flawed: Dregoth arrived with an army of around 25,000 HD, why (beyond the fact he is an insane goob) is he looking for 1,000 HD in Raam when it pretty much reveals his big plan to anyone paying attention, surely a sermon convincing the faithful to sacrifice a few of their number is simpler, and maintains secrecy about Dregoth's survival?
On a completely seperate note, there is another comment I wanted ot make regarding the adventure but forgot until now: A bunch of the NPCs (mostly the supporting cast) have no names. Most of them were nothing more than a hit point total and a reference to a generic set of stats. I think one guy didn't even have that.
Can some effort be put into making these guys worth RPing as opposed to "Yeah the Mul gladiator has a few friends, they don't say much. Their names are... ermmm... Larry, Curly and Moe?"
Not asking for a full writeup here. A name, basic personality, immediate goals, opinion of the Dray etc would make running them much easier than having to generate another NPC on the fly jotting stuff down to remain consistant in following sessions.
Anyone think such an item, or a different one, might make a difference in the adventure?
The occluding standard seems a little pricey. Spending 20k on something that protects a small bunch of troops seems inefficient. Particularly when under XPHB psionics (which function perfectly) is just as destructive as magic.
Particularly when the PCs end up with the item and have their barbarian raging Half-giant charge into battle with it.
I would rather see more frequent appearences of potions and scrolls and lower level spellchuckers.
Particularly when the PCs end up with the item and have their barbarian raging Half-giant charge into battle with it.
The standard can be attached with giant hair rope to the mid-section of an half-giant, just a thought.... ;)
They also agreed that the adventure premise was largely flawed: Dregoth arrived with an army of around 25,000 HD, why (beyond the fact he is an insane goob) is he looking for 1,000 HD in Raam when it pretty much reveals his big plan to anyone paying attention, surely a sermon convincing the faithful to sacrifice a few of their number is simpler, and maintains secrecy about Dregoth's survival?
On a completely seperate note, there is another comment I wanted ot make regarding the adventure but forgot until now: A bunch of the NPCs (mostly the supporting cast) have no names. Most of them were nothing more than a hit point total and a reference to a generic set of stats. I think one guy didn't even have that.
Can some effort be put into making these guys worth RPing as opposed to "Yeah the Mul gladiator has a few friends, they don't say much. Their names are... ermmm... Larry, Curly and Moe?"
You see, that why I think DA suck and I will never run it.
My apology for the people who worked hard on it
The standard can be attached with giant hair rope to the mid-section of an half-giant, just a thought.... ;)
huh?
To clarify, I am concerned that once the PCs beat the Dray with their item, they will then use it themselves against the Dray, or worse pawn it for another magic item. That is the beauty of scrolls and potions, they simultaneously make monsters harder to fight and take loot away from the PCs. :D
If players want to use any such item that benefits an enemy group, just have the item be attached to an half-giant.
That way, if the PCs kill every enemy in the group, they either have to...try and cut the rope (pretty tough and time consuming) or drag the item with the dead half-giant attached to it (even tougher).
:D
They also agreed that the adventure premise was largely flawed: Dregoth arrived with an army of around 25,000 HD, why (beyond the fact he is an insane goob) is he looking for 1,000 HD in Raam when it pretty much reveals his big plan to anyone paying attention, surely a sermon convincing the faithful to sacrifice a few of their number is simpler, and maintains secrecy about Dregoth's survival?
Ah, but you see. Dregoth just didn't hit Raam at random. He attacked Raam for revenge against Abalach-Re.
Did anyone that has DA find it odd that Dregoth didn't use his amassed horde of undead and devils he struck a bargain with from CbtSS?
Well my group played through that adventure and destroyed the army in the encounter therein (at least the one in that particular cave the PCs stumble onto - of course there might be other caves ... ). There even is an XP bonus at the end of the adventure if the PCs do that (I think). So I guess the hordes are considered destroyed (at least shortly after the CbtSS adventure).
I am sure though that Dregoth will invest a bit of his time to create a new one (but at least the PCs have delayed his plans -- just like they delayed him by the other things they might do in that cool CbtSS adventure concerning the altar and the planar gate ... ;) ).
Well my group played through that adventure and destroyed the army in the encounter therein (at least the one in that particular cave the PCs stumble onto - of course there might be other caves ... ). There even is an XP bonus at the end of the adventure if the PCs do that (I think). So I guess the hordes are considered destroyed (at least shortly after the CbtSS adventure).
I am sure though that Dregoth will invest a bit of his time to create a new one (but at least the PCs have delayed his plans -- just like they delayed him by the other things they might do in that cool CbtSS adventure concerning the altar and the planar gate ... ;) ).
Good point. In my campaign they never destoryed that orb in the cave that was keeping the undead animated.
That still doesn't explain the lack of fiends though. Unless its assumed that the PC's destoryed the Planar Gate as well.
Good point. In my campaign they never destoryed that orb in the cave that was keeping the undead animated.
That still doesn't explain the lack of fiends though. Unless its assumed that the PC's destoryed the Planar Gate as well.
Well destroying the Planar Gate was the major goal of that adventure ... and yes my group did that too .. they even destroyed that dummy-altar ...
After all of those things the PCs had quite a hard time ... the Earth Cleric even jumped into the lava to escape ... and the Psion was caught and later transformed into a Dray.
Well destroying the Planar Gate was the major goal of that adventure ... and yes my group did that too .. they even destroyed that dummy-altar ...
After all of those things the PCs had quite a hard time ... the Earth Cleric even jumped into the lava to escape ... and the Psion was caught and later transformed into a Dray.
Three characters were aced in the final encounter with Dregoth in the CbtSS adventure. Two being PC's, one being the NPC dwarf Pask from Cromlin.
"His focus was a meklot load"
Did anyone that has DA find it odd that Dregoth didn't use his amassed horde of undead and devils he struck a bargain with from CbtSS?
I was thinking about saving the undead for DA part III.
I was making a joke cute_n_fluffy.
If players want to use any such item that benefits an enemy group, just have the item be attached to an half-giant.
That way, if the PCs kill every enemy in the group, they either have to...try and cut the rope (pretty tough and time consuming) or drag the item with the dead half-giant attached to it (even tougher).
:D
roflmao
Now I get it. That would be amusing to watch. Must remember for next Darksun game I run.