* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : The High-Level Campaign Started at 01-31-08 04:44 AM by True_Atlantean Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=985581 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 01-31-08 04:44 AM Thread Title : The High-Level Campaign Hi all, I'm looking for some DM advice on a topic that I'm not particularly good at handling in any game - the high level campaign. Only one of my campaigns in twenty years of Dming has gone over 12th level. I really like the low level play (1st-5th) as it provides challenge for establishing yourself, wearing the character "right" and developing some backstory. 6th-10th is where the PCs have come into their own and start to explore the world a little more fully, accrue some sort of temporal power and make a name for themselves. However, the post 12th level game is where I see the party establishing themselves as a powerful force within their respective areas. The clerics assume some ecclesiastical rank, the fighter starts to look at strongholds, the Mage is perhaps investigating some serious study. I find the players are looking at their characters beginning to "settle down" and the game needs to be upped to a new level. It's doubtful that the same sorts of quests are applicable and the same sorts of hooks will continue to work. In addition, I find that each PC has a distinct set of interests and the party cohesion starts to fray as each follows his own path. What I want is a high-level campaign that feels special, rather than a rehash of the first ten levels of play, but with more powerful characters. Does anyone have any particular tips and tricks for keeping the party together, keeping things fresh and evoking the epic atmosphere? Also, anything you've found that doesn't work would be helpful too. My current party has hit 8th level and I'm hoping to break past that barrier eventually and have them running at the highest level I've DMed for. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : Extempus Date : 01-31-08 10:25 PM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign Where to start??? My campaign is ultra-high level (most of the major characters are 18th-24th level now, although the 13th level archdruids, while seemingly out of their depth, are among the most powerful druids around by 1e standards). The big shift in the campaign comes when the characters establish not just their own strongholds, but their own nations (in Greyhawk, there are plenty of unclaimed territories such as the Kron Hills, where some of our characters carved out a niche). At that point, it's not, "Let's go kill the monster," or "Let's rescue the princess," the characters are on a par (nominally) with kings and emperors (kinda like the difference between a naval captain in charge of an aircraft carrier and the captain of a shrimp boat), so their adventures should reflect that. In other words, they'll be rubbing shoulders with allied kings planning out war strategies, and fates of nations rather than villages will lie in their hands. Of course, at that level of play, you can't just rush in and kill the bad guys... at lower levels, enemy kings aren't likely to notice or care much about the inconvenience. If you deal with their high-level advisors, that's another story... it's no longer just hack-and-slash, but much planning and thought has to go into just about everything that one does (plus, you have to be able to cover your tracks... mindblank is a wonderful spell), you just can't go in gangbusters like you once did at low levels. In my campaign, since we deal on a national level, that means that many of the characters are still involved since it affects their own nation, so there is little or no fragmenting of the party. We also don't often cast spells or get into melee, but we still do once in a while, and it's fun to be able to deal with the bad guys in a round or two instead of having a long, protracted battle. It's also great to be able to deal with large numbers of orcs and other things with massively destructive offensive spells, and we often use wish as well (why not? We earned it!), but the real challenge is to be able to deal with situations without resorting to massive amounts of magic or brawn. Something else we often deal with are puzzles and ancient mysteries... we're at a level now where we can get answers to certain things (whether it involves paying a sage large amounts of money, traveling to a location thousands of miles away to check things out firsthand, etc)... basically, there are still challenges at higher levels, but they're different than the ones we deal with at 1st level. And once in a while, we encounter an uber-badguy who is very difficult to kill (my wizard once had a hell of a time killing an evil cavalier and had almost run out of spells, then there was the Malleck, a paragon black dragon over 2,000 years old that killed most of the party before we did him in). Another challenge involves capturing enemy wizards instead of killing them (which activates their clones), so we don't have to deal with them again and again and again... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : cavemanjed Date : 02-02-08 04:31 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign My old DM was pretty good at the higher level stuff by being creative. Essentilaly he was a crafty bastard lol, He'd do things like sick kobolds on us...not in swarms but swinging from ropes with spears in hand knocking us off a bridge over a chasm. Or vice versa he'd take a weak creature that we had contempt for then sick it on us under the influence of an evil artifact. Another evil yet balancing action he would take was to periodically divest us of ridiculous magic items. But he would always do that through role playing he never screwed us, he always let us screw ourselves lol. point is creativity and rethinking the way you look at accepted things goes a long way. cavemanjed -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 02-03-08 05:58 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign Thanks for the thoughts thus far, it has already given me much to ponder. I agree with your points, Extempus, they were some of the topics that seemed the most daunting, although the questing for deeper mysteries plot thread is one that does greatly appeal to me. I try to invoke that the higher level characters have a greater understanding of how the world works and how the various aspects of reality mesh together, so this sort of knowledge quest would tap into that them very well. More food for thought.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : RealmsRunner Date : 02-12-08 10:43 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign Howdy, Atlantean. I've had a few campaigns reach the high-level territory, and in the one i'm running now, we have characters from level 12 to level 16. To keep them challenged, and keep everyone interested in a unified goal, I am using the ol' "Homeland Under Attack" routine, but i'm jazzing it up a bit: the enemies are a party of high-level, evil characters that do more plotting and sabotage than outright assaults. These guys are so badass that they are always a step ahead of the PCs. They set up false threats for the PCs to respond to, while the real attack hits where it hurts the most. And the kicker is that the dastardly villains were right under their noses the whole time. With a story like this, the action is much more role-playing, but still with plenty of battles for those who crave it. Keep in mind that for the "Homeland Under Attack" scenario to really work, the "Homeland" in peril must be somewhere that the PCs and players really love, not just the place written by their Homeland space on their character sheet. You have to spend some time in the place and really make it pop for the players, make them interested and excited, and then make them love the place. Then when the armada of pirate ships shows up in the harbor with a level 20+ evil mage, and The Mighty Servant of Luek-O, the PCs and players will go, "Not in MY city!" I hope I helped at all. Good luck. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Extempus Date : 02-12-08 07:40 PM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign One thing that has kept me challenged on occasion with our high-level campaign when my dad DM's is misdirection... once, we had travelled to another world (that turned out to be a Dyson sphere, and we were on the inside), and there were two neighboring nations that were always skirmishing: the Land of the Magi (the ruling class were all wizards) and the Land of the Dead (yep, a land populated with undead). We took a dislike to the magi at first, since they had what we thought was a slave class (turned out the "slaves" were actually happy with their lot and depended on the magi for protection), but the real enemies, as it turned out, were the undead. We knew they were getting ready to attack and the magi were certain it was going to be at one end of the domain where the undead were massing, and some of us accompanied them to fight. When we slaughtered them with little to no resistance we knew something was fishy because it was far too easy, and we asked the magi where the weakest part of the land was: it was at the other end of the domain, and I realized instantly that that was the real target! The undead had executed a near-perfect feint, but the majority of the magi were too far away to get back to the real battle, so we had to do most of the work ourselves (the magi, powerful as they were, had no real experience with war and weren't sure what to do). While it wasn't our nation that we defended, we still got into it because none of our characters are willing to let the helpless (and yes, sometimes the clueless) get enslaved or killed (and, in this case, reanimated as undead) when we can make a difference. IIRC, there were some 25,000 zombies and other types of undead that we'd never heard of before that would have taken the Land of the Magi had we not happened to be there to intervene (large numbers of elementals can be very, very handy in massed battles!)... It's not always, "Might is right" (which evil nations ascribe to), but "Might for right" is a sort of unspoken motto in our campaign... I don't agree with the tactics of Mordenkainen and others who prefer to "work behind the scenes." Screw that, with as much power as we have now, we can make a huge difference now by directly involving ourselves while others drag their feet and do nothing... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : RedWizard Date : 02-14-08 09:13 PM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign As has already been mentioned, adventures at levels in the teens start revolving quite a bit around kingdom affecting situations. Obviously characters will b expected to make visits to other equally ranked/prestigious peers (and the skullduggery that goes with such visits). This will involve huge amounts of "roleplay" as opposed to rollplay in dungeons but can be just as much fun. Still we all hanker occasionally for an adventure that lets our characters get a bit down and dirty and these can still be done even at high levels. 1st edition had artifacts and relics detailed in the DMG and boy they were some scary items. But trying to destroy one was even more crazy, still these are items that affect the "world" and as such high level characters are needed to handle them. Take a cue from Tolkien (all his characters were high level) and set your guys out to find/dispose of such an artifact (Eye/Hand of Vecna or Queen Ehlissia's Marvelous Nightingale as examples). Give them competition their own level outside of the monsters already set to guard said item. In the last high level camapign I played in, we had an ancient red dragon whose only purpose in life was to reduce us to ash for killing her children. I gave the party in my own campaign a lich intent on overunning their mutually ruled kingdom. You can have both the roleplay and the rollplay even at the high levels. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 02-16-08 04:27 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign You have to spend some time in the place and really make it pop for the players, make them interested and excited, and then make them love the place. Then when the armada of pirate ships shows up in the harbor with a level 20+ evil mage, and The Mighty Servant of Luek-O, the PCs and players will go, "Not in MY city!" I hope I helped at all. Good luck. You certainly did. I generally take the approach with any game of choosing a single geographical setting, using it for the first few levels, building NPC relationships and allowing the players to explore the locale and history; befire movign the game to show a larger world. As a result, the first setting, whilst not strictly everyone's homeland, is somewhere that they care about. Threats to the land are seen are almost personal slights. For example, I have been running my present Realms campaign in Shadowdale, and have branched out to Daggerdale where the local lord has been deposed by the Zhentarim. They are dead keen to restore him to power as they see the threat the Zhents pose to the neighbouring Dales; and dislike the Zhents just on principle. I'll take the rest of your e-mail on board too - it has certainly given me something to think about. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 02-16-08 04:29 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign 1st edition had artifacts and relics detailed in the DMG and boy they were some scary items. But trying to destroy one was even more crazy, still these are items that affect the "world" and as such high level characters are needed to handle them. Take a cue from Tolkien (all his characters were high level) and set your guys out to find/dispose of such an artifact (Eye/Hand of Vecna or Queen Ehlissia's Marvelous Nightingale as examples). Give them competition their own level outside of the monsters already set to guard said item. The artifacts idea is definately a good one. Looking through my 1st and 2nd ed books, there are items that I'd have no problem letting the party possess. Again, thanks for the ideas - they'll all be distilled into something that hopefully works. :D -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 02-16-08 04:34 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign It's not always, "Might is right" (which evil nations ascribe to), but "Might for right" is a sort of unspoken motto in our campaign... I don't agree with the tactics of Mordenkainen and others who prefer to "work behind the scenes." Screw that, with as much power as we have now, we can make a huge difference now by directly involving ourselves while others drag their feet and do nothing... I've always taken exception to the sidebar by Elminster in one of the editions of the Forgotten Realms Campaign settings that speaks of the equivalent of a magical Cold War where the bad guys have stockpiled their arsenal and the good guys have an equivalent amount and no-one is willing to use the weapons of mass destruction in fear of the other side doing the same. Rubbish. If you have real power to stop evil, use it. That's been the way that our group has always viewed the game world and the very idea of inactivity just 'because the bad guys would retaliate" is foolish and not terribly heroic. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : RedWizard Date : 02-16-08 01:03 PM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign If the good guys have enough power to essentially overpower the bad guys though then that probably means you need to bump up your villanins. In all campaigns but especially a high level one, the good guys need to be underdogs. The difference in my opinion can be seen in the works of Tolkien as opposed to the works of David Eddings in his Belgarian series. In Middle-Earth, the good guys had some heavy hitters with the likes of Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, Bombadill, etc but ultimately Sauron had more raw force at his disposal. A frontal attack on the part of the good guys would have failed outright. This kept the readers involved because it was clear how dire the threat at hand was. In Edding's books, I knew of the evil at hand but Polgara and her crew spent so much time socializing with the other monarchs of the land and talking about how tough they all were that I basically decided the "threat" wasn't much of a threat at all and likely just a vehicle to let Eddings talk about how cool his cast of heroes were. Unfortunately from most of the high level campaigns I have seen, they were more alike to Eddings characters/situation then to Tolkien's. The player's themselves took the campaigns only halfway seriously. The bad guys could wait, the good guys had a party in their honor to attend. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : RealmsRunner Date : 02-21-08 04:46 PM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign You certainly did. I generally take the approach with any game of choosing a single geographical setting, using it for the first few levels, building NPC relationships and allowing the players to explore the locale and history; befire movign the game to show a larger world. As a result, the first setting, whilst not strictly everyone's homeland, is somewhere that they care about. Threats to the land are seen are almost personal slights. For example, I have been running my present Realms campaign in Shadowdale, and have branched out to Daggerdale where the local lord has been deposed by the Zhentarim. They are dead keen to restore him to power as they see the threat the Zhents pose to the neighbouring Dales; and dislike the Zhents just on principle. I'll take the rest of your e-mail on board too - it has certainly given me something to think about. Sorry about the late response. I'm still getting the hang of this, trying to keep up to speed with all my posts. Anyhow, it sounds like you have a plan. I can hear the maniacal laughter from here. Funny that your PCs are in Shadowdale. I am currently running two FR campaigns: my high-level group, which is based in Waterdeep and is currently facing the horde I mentioned earlier in my first response to your thread, and my just weeks old, 1st and 2nd level characters, who are based in Freedale. These Freedalers have made more than a few trips up to Shadowdale, in an attempt to gain the advice and friendship of a certain elderly mage, but to no avail, for the old man is in Waterdeep at the moment, helping defend the city against an unbelievable horde (haha). Let me know how your PCs turn out. I love hearing campaign tales from other groups, and I rarely get to do so, because we are the only old-school group around here. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : True_Atlantean Date : 02-26-08 04:19 AM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign Okay, RealmsRunner, I usually try to avoid gaming stories as I've never wanted to be "that guy" at the gaming store when a group gathers. I re-wrote some of the Dalelands history and inserted the Temple of Elemental Evil just north of Daggerdale. Lord Mourngrym fought in the great battle against the cultists and has had a vested interest in keeping the Temple under covert watch since then. His brother was lost in the Temple during the campaign and the lack of a body has meant that even after all these years, he has yet to have his closure. They checked out the moathouse and have had a single foray into the Temple, eventually turning to the local militia to guard the Temple against the influx of evil when the Zhents attacked and conquered Daggerdale during the winter. During this time, a powerful artifact resurfaced in the area and Elminster, off plane-hopping (I've run the Realms for almost fifteen years and have yet to have the Sage make an appearance) wasn't able to deal with the resurgence of arcane energies. A foray into the Ghost Tower of Inverness yielded the Soulstone, which has now been passed into wiser hands than theirs. Mourngrym (who I play as a first among equals and general busybody of the Dales/self-appointed protector) recieved word via a Harper agent about the invasion and sent the party as an undercover group to make contact with the local militia (or what remained) and locate the dispossesed lord, one Randal Morn. I modified The Doom of Daggerdale for this and turned it into a guerilla-warfare style game based in the Eagle's Eyrie, an abandoned, and haunted Dwarven Citadel some distance from town. From here they struck at Zhent supply wagons, depriving them of food, replacement equipment and their pay; with the party reditributing these goods to the good folk of Daggerdale. They eventually rallied the townsfolk, and using a divide-conquer strategy against an already demoralised foe, ran the Zhents out of town - or at least that's what it looks like. Come Spring, it is possible that reinforcements will be sent form Zhentil Keep to deal with the upstart populace of a rural town that was meant to be subdued. Randal Morn finally recieved word of the last resting place of The Sword of the Dales and left to retrieve it, but in the last game, word arrived from a barely conscious member fo his party that they were ambused, Morn captured and the militia crushed. Using the militia-mans directions, the party has headed to the Tomb which Randal believed held the Sword. They now stand on the threshhold of the Tomb and are ready to brave the dangers and hopefully return both the rightful ruler and a mighty artifact to the Dales (which is the plot of The Secret of Spiderhaunt) Happy times are here again... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : RealmsRunner Date : 02-26-08 07:19 PM Thread Title : Re: The High-Level Campaign Okay, RealmsRunner, I usually try to avoid gaming stories as I've never wanted to be "that guy" at the gaming store when a group gathers. That's funny. The only reason I know about that kind of thing is because of the jokes in Dragon magazine. There never has been a game store near enough to me for me to frequent. Anyhow, thanks for the rundown. Sounds like a great game and story. I really like the idea of connecting the published stuff like that. For some reason i've never thought of doing that. I'm in the process though. I'm getting our new characters ready for Night Below, and i'm finding things I can integrate. I dug out an old issue of Dragon and found an adventure called "Kingdom of the Ghouls" (I think). It should work well. If I don't come across anything else published, i'll add in some things here and there to keep the PCs tied in. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 05-10-08 08:22 AM.