Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 methvezem May 26, 2005 16:21:51	It struck me that DS3 price for weapons were quite high for comparable weapons found in the PH. So I revised the price and i'd like to know your opinion about it. (sorry, its a long post, and its quite hard to read. I'm not very familiar with the code command). The first number list the old price, the second is the new one, and the third paragraph list a somewhat equivalent weapon and the original DS price if possible.
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup May 26, 2005 16:59:07	Personally, I like the DS3 weapon prices. yes, they are higher - just means that weapons are a bit more expensive. Metal weapons in my games are still their straight gp value - meaning that they are 100x the value of their non-metal counterparts. Less money available to the players, and higher-costs for weapons, to me, sounds about right.
#3 methvezem May 27, 2005 7:33:43	I understand your point, xlorep, but the revised prices here are more to make them comparable to the PHB weapons. Why bother buying a weapon that cost more to have the same combat capabilities? I like it that the DS weapons are at least as used as the one in the PHB for a DS campaign.
#4 elonarc May 27, 2005 8:06:00	Why bother buying a weapon that cost more to have the same combat capabilities? You fail to see the point that athasian weapons (at least in the DS version of athas.org) are superior to their PHB counterparts. Why bother buying a non-metal longsword (-1 penalty) when one can buy a macahuitl (no penalties).
#5 jon_oracle_of_athas May 27, 2005 11:43:06	You fail to see the point that athasian weapons (at least in the DS version of athas.org) are superior to their PHB counterparts. Why bother buying a non-metal longsword (-1 penalty) when one can buy a macahuitl (no penalties). Not when the currency is Cp. The currently released DS3 Equipment chapter has a macahuitl costing 35 cp, while the PHB has its equivalent - the longsword at 15 gp. To me a 15 cp price for the macahuitl sounds fair. In Greyhawk, that macahuitl would probably cost 15 gp (or less since it is actually inferior to the longsword). I'm curious as to how DS weapons are superior. They are easier to sunder than other wordly metal "cousins".
#6 elonarc May 27, 2005 11:51:51	I'm curious as to how DS weapons are superior. They are easier to sunder than other wordly metal "cousins". Ah, now it comes down to the athasian weapon quality discussion that was in another thread recently. But I still deem a macahuitl (damage: 1d8, no "to hit" penalty) superior to a longsword (damage: 1d8-1 and -1 to hit). Remember, we talk about non-metal weapons.
#7 jon_oracle_of_athas May 28, 2005 3:54:42	Ah, now it comes down to the athasian weapon quality discussion that was in another thread recently. But I still deem a macahuitl (damage: 1d8, no "to hit" penalty) superior to a longsword (damage: 1d8-1 and -1 to hit). Remember, we talk about non-metal weapons. Now I see where you're coming from. You're comparing the DS weapons to inferior material versions of PHB weapons. IDHABIFOM but shouldn't those inferior material versions of PHB weapons be cheaper than their metal equivalents on other worlds - and that price be converted from gp to cp in Dark Sun? Thus leaving a macahuitl at the same price as a metal longsword on another world, and a bone longsword cheaper? That seems more balanced than increasing the price of DS weapons such as the macahuitl.
#8 jon_oracle_of_athas May 28, 2005 4:12:35	As a conclusion, inferior variants of PHB weapons should cost less than 1% of the price in the PHB and DS counterparts, such as the macahuiitl, cost 1% of the PHB price. Unless we have any actual price references to inferior item costs on other worlds, I suggest a flat rate of perhaps 0.75% or 0.5% (easier to do the math). PHB Weapons unaffected by the inferior materials rules (spears for example) cost 1% of the listed PHB price.
#9 gilliard_derosan May 28, 2005 11:27:25	As a conclusion, inferior variants of PHB weapons should cost less than 1% of the price in the PHB and DS counterparts, such as the macahuiitl, cost 1% of the PHB price. Unless we have any actual price references to inferior item costs on other worlds, I suggest a flat rate of perhaps 0.75% or 0.5% (easier to do the math). PHB Weapons unaffected by the inferior materials rules (spears for example) cost 1% of the listed PHB price. I was actually about to start making a chart like this before I started running my DS campaign, that had Bone longswords costing .8% of the PHB price, and then stone or obsidian at .6%, and wood at .4% (or maybe the other way around), but it just got overwhelming. So I figured I would just adjust on the fly. I mean, who is to say that the Elven market isn't going to charge a group 19 cp for a bone longsword, of offer 5cp for one that they are trying to pawn off? I also thought about the old conversions. Wood weapons being 30% of the cost, Bone being 50%, etc, but that meant you ended up with bone longswords being 750cp, and wooden ones costing 450cp, and that was just way too off, unless this was already after taking in the 1% conversion for non metal, which made the prices better for players, but a headache to come up with each time. Bone longsword is going to cost you 75bits, wood longsword will cost you 45 bits. Much more reasonable prices, definitely, but a bit on the low side for my tastes. But I could go for something like Stuff that is not affected by inferior weapon materials being 1%, take 10% off this price for bone, and 20% off for wood or the like, or even 15% and 30% (Please forgive me, I start to ramble from here on out) As far as DS weapons costing a little more, I put it all up to oppression of the masses. Merchants have to bribe templars for them to overlook any goods that might be more on the shady side, and thus they pass on those price increases to the customer. "Hey, you know how much grease I have to supply to be able to even sell these things???" Wood is wood, and so 15cp shouldn't get you either of two weapons that do the same damage, and are just as easy to sunder, but one comes with a -1 to hit and damage. The one with no penalty to hit and damage should cost more that the one with the penalties should. This being Athas, I am in favor of upward adjustments for the non-penalty weapon instead of downward. Another thing about adjusting prices on the fly, is you don't end up with players plotting the expenditure of every ceramic piece. I have had gamers in the past supply a list of stuff they are buying and the prices listed that they are spending, and I don't care for that. I think about a DS game I played in where we picked up a metal longsword for 20gp, and it was magical even. It was all the money we had, the merchant wanted a little more for it, but gave in because it had alignment restrictions, and for the merchants alignment, the sword was unwieldable in combat. In the hands of my Halfgiant, it's power was adjusted by the HGs daily alignment. Lawfun was fixed, and so on the days he was lawful good, the sword was +5. On the days he was neutral, the sword wasn't even considered magical, and on the days he was evil, the sword was cursed and wouldn't even come out of the scabbard in a combat situation. In any case, the Merchant was happy to get rid of such a "hot" commodity. When you take price listings to the letter, you don't get players thinking they are getting a deal when they are getting 6gp for selling a magical +1 dagger (Minimum 2002cp for non metal, and 2200cp for metal), and they don't think they are getting ripped off when a merchant is demanding 1200cp for an amulet of natural armor +2 (which is normally 4000cp I believe) But since money is usually so limited, the prices work. Of course, when the players amass some wealth, and rumors spread that they have some wealth, then merchants increase prices accordingly as well "Ahh, Mrs. Smith, here you go, one metal dagger for 500cp... Ahhhh, Player1, you want a metal dagger as well? I am afraid I am down to my last one, so it will cost you 2000cp" Also, you can charge conversion fees for gp and sp. "2000 Ceramic. . ahh, you have gold, well then, since I take gold at only 87cp per coin, give me 23 of them, and I shall give you 1cp as change. I take Silver at 9cp per coin, so 223 of them will suffice as well"
#10 Kamelion May 29, 2005 9:01:24	I was actually about to start making a chart like this before I started running my DS campaign, that had Bone longswords costing .8% of the PHB price, and then stone or obsidian at .6%, and wood at .4% (or maybe the other way around), but it just got overwhelming. I know what you mean. It kinda did my head in a bit, but I was able to put a list together, giving DS prices for PHB weaponry. Steel weapons cost PHB price, bronze costs 50% of PHB price, obsidian costs 1% of PHB price and stone or bone costs 0.5% of PHB price. I ruled that obsidian was the standard material for "inferior" weapons, with a -1 penalty and stone/bone were even worse, with a -2 penalty. I left bone/stone at the same price, given that one has more hardness/hp but weighs lots while the other hass les hardness/hp but weighs less. I didn't include wooden weapons in the list as, imc, I treat wood as a fairly valuable commodity and it rarely gets used to make inferior weapons, only athasian weapons and armour. Anyway, the list is an edited version of the weapons chart and weapon descriptions from the PHB/SRD, so anyone can have a copy if they like. Just bounce me a mail.