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Lolth's Return...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the_simple_seeker_ii
May 31, 2005 10:48:30 A while back, I heard that Lolth was supposedly 'killed' in a Greyhawk module or book. Removed she was, from Oerth's sphere of influence. Now that she has gained Greater deity status in another realm.

The big question comes to mind. Would she go and seek out the drow population in Oerth and seek to regain her 'lost' children back into the fold?

And also, since the Eberron world has brought the drow into that world as well. It looks like Lolth's power base could jump up...greater. The drow there, has no idea of their true hertiage.

What are your thoughts on this?
#2
ripvanwormer
May 31, 2005 17:46:03 Lolth is still alive and active in Oerth in the current continuity. What you may be thinking of is that it was (theoretically) possible for her to be killed by PCs in the module Q1, Queen of the Demonweb Pits - but she wasn't given the powers of a goddess then. The storyline doesn't really work with the current interpretation of the powers of gods.
#3
Elendur
May 31, 2005 17:48:34 I guess it depends on whether you view Lolth as a racial deity, akin to Moradin for the dwarves, etc, or if she is just a demonic entity the drow made a pact with. It seems to me originally demon lords were akin to minor gods and could grant spells to supplicants. (As could weird, undefined entities such as the EEG).

So I don't see any particular reason the spider queen would show up in Eberron, since the cosmology is so different. If I were running drow in Eberron, I'd probably stick with the scorpion thing(or the umbragen, very cool).

I don't know if there is a Greyhawk source that actually kills off Lolth, but in Q1 the heroes defeat her on her home plane, a very bad thing for a demon lord. The module implies she'd be out of commision for a long time, I'd say 20 years at least. She could come back just in time to spoil the heroes retirement party.

But yeah, I think the drow would bargain with whatever infernal was offering, so she could make a comeback.
#4
Greyson
May 31, 2005 22:48:23
I don't know if there is a Greyhawk source that actually kills off Lolth ...

Escalla the twit, an annoying and stupid character from Paul Kidd's Queen of the Demonweb Pits, kills Lolth at the end of that novel. Lolth falls into a bag of holding full of acid or some ridiculous thing like that while in the Demonweb Pits.

I don't think Lolth fits into Eberron at all. Hopefully, she will not figure into that campaign setting. The black elves of Eberron are not the same as the drow of Faerun or Greyhawk. I think their history and identity will be more closely developed with the ancient giants os Xen'Drik then with any other planar entity.
#5
Brom_Blackforge
Jun 01, 2005 11:00:37 The original post mentioned something about Lolth gaining power "in another realm." I don't own it, but I remember paging through the Forgotten Realms supplement "Faiths and Pantheons" (co-authored by Erik Mona) and finding some mention that the Lolth of the FR is not the Lolth of Oerth (the same being true of all the racial deities). It was something akin to Neil Gaiman's novel "American Gods" - when the demihuman races arrived in FR, they brought versions of their gods with them, or something like that. It struck me kind of odd, and something completely contrary to earlier stuff (like all of Planescape, for instance, or stories about notable NPCs traveling from one setting to the other). Anyway, the original post reminded me of that, so I thought I'd share.
#6
ripvanwormer
Jun 01, 2005 18:20:02
Escalla the twit, an annoying and stupid character from Paul Kidd's Queen of the Demonweb Pits, kills Lolth at the end of that novel. Lolth falls into a bag of holding full of acid or some ridiculous thing like that while in the Demonweb Pits.

It doesn't seem that that book - or any Greyhawk novel, for that matter - has become part of the current setting's canon.

Even Gygax's own novels are part of their own continuity, not that of the RPG line.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jun 02, 2005 5:36:49
Even Gygax's own novels are part of their own continuity, not that of the RPG line.

Well, elements (such as Evaleigh of Knurl and Obmi for example) of the first two Gord novels, Tale of Old City and Artifact of Evil, seem to have been incorporated into post GH '98 RPG material. Personally I consider them pretty much canon - but YMMV.
#8
Greyson
Jun 02, 2005 12:16:11
It doesn't seem that that book - or any Greyhawk novel, for that matter - has become part of the current setting's canon.

I was just citing that particular book as a source of information, whether it be literal or potential canon in the setting or not. Speaking of Mr. Gygax, Paul noted two items of material used directly from Gygax books that manifest in the setting. I certainly think novels can be considered sources for the setting. At least to draw inferences and contrasts, if not demonstrable canon.

Happy gaming.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jun 02, 2005 14:28:15 I was under the impression, that if a demon or a god were defeated on the Prime Plane, that they were sent back to their home place for a century. If they are defeated on their home plan it was finito for them.
#10
ripvanwormer
Jun 02, 2005 16:33:21
I certainly think novels can be considered sources for the setting. At least to draw inferences and contrasts, if not demonstrable canon.

I agree with you. Certainly, some aspects of the Gord novels have made their way into the continuity - arguably, the entire Greyhawk Wars sequence parallels the wars in (was it the third or fourth book?): Iuz conquers the North, the Scarlet Brotherhood conquers the South, Graz'zt conquers three layers of the Abyss. That all happened.

But it's not exactly the same. Novels enrich the setting, but they don't determine it (unlike the Forgotten Realms).
#11
zombiegleemax
Jun 02, 2005 16:35:35 How does one obtain those novels and what are their titles?
#12
Elendur
Jun 02, 2005 16:37:35
I was under the impression, that if a demon or a god were defeated on the Prime Plane, that they were sent back to their home place for a century. If they are defeated on their home plan it was finito for them.

I'd agree with that in general, but Q1 specifically mentions Lolth only being severely diminished in power, not totally destroyed. Perhaps she had some contingency plan in place. Personally in my campaign she'll be good as dead at that point.
#13
ripvanwormer
Jun 02, 2005 16:42:23
How does one obtain those novels

I got them from used bookstores.

and what are their titles?

This is the Gord the Rogue sequence by Gary Gygax:

1. Saga of Old City
2. Artifact of Evil
3. Sea of Death
4. Come Endless Darkness
5. Dance of Demons

Short stories:

- Night Arrant
- City of Hawks
- "At Moonset Blackcat Comes," Dragon Magazine #100
- "Evening Odds," from Pawn of Chaos (White Wolf)

I would avoid anything that says Rose Estes on the cover.
#14
Greyson
Jun 02, 2005 17:45:54
Personally in my campaign she'll (Lolth) be good as dead at that point.

One area of debate regarding Lolth is Eclavdra. There is another thread on this very board touching on the issue of Eclavdra and her relationship (or non-relationship) with Lolth, Iggwilv, Grazzt, Iuz and the Elder Elemental Eye. If Eclavdra figures into your campaign, you might want to "pick your side" for the priestess to play for. If Eclavdra has made atonement with Lolth, the goddess could not be dead. Personally, I stick with the Elder Elemental Eye. But, if you don't use Eclavdra, then this argument is academic, as they say.

Between Amazon.com and eBay, I was able to pick up all of Gygax's Gord books, including Dragon #100 last year. Eric Mona's old page is still up from his UM days. Check it out and click on the Saga of Old City image to see his interesting notes. CLICK HERE

And ripvanwormer is not kidding - do not pick up anything with the name Rose Estes on it. She might have been a talented children's author. But, she blundered horrendously when she typed up her Greyhawk Adventures novels. I read Master Wolf, and I regret the time wasted reading it.

Is this thread still on topic? lol
#15
Elendur
Jun 02, 2005 19:51:16
If Eclavdra figures into your campaign, you might want to "pick your side" for the priestess to play for.

I'm running pretty straight off the original GDQ modules (not even the compilation), so she'll be EEE all the way.
I don't know, demon queens just don't seem like the forgiving type to me. Maybe if Eclavdra could offer her some shortcut back into power. But as I said, that'll be outside the scope of my current campaign. After GDQ there will probably be some eventual showdown against Iuz.

p.s. Any thread that doesn't bash wizards, rules editions, or other people/websites is gloriously on topic as far as I'm concerned.
#16
zombiegleemax
Jun 03, 2005 15:04:53 I am going to be running the Slave Lords, Giants, Underdark, Demon Web Pits for some people who have never experienced them. I plan on them becoming epic before they get to the Demonweb.
#17
Greyson
Jun 03, 2005 23:58:59
After GDQ there will probably be some eventual showdown against Iuz.

Elendur, here are a couple of ideas for a follow up to the GDQ series of adventures. Of course, I am sure there are many options, these following are my choices.

The Harrowing from Dungeon 84 is pretty good, I think. It is v.3.0, and designed for 15th-level characters. It has handouts and an interesting phase pattern of play, revolving around an in-game timeline.

Speaking of Iuz, there is the 2nd Edition AD&D adventure WGR6 City of Skulls. It is in Dorakaa, the Old One's home town. I am sure it can be tweaked to involve Iuz, his Boneheart or both. It is only for character levels 9 to 12, though.

And, as Treymordin said above, A1-4 Slavers is pretty dang good.

Your campaign sounds interesting, Elendur. You'll have to let us know how it goes. Happy gaming.
#18
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2005 15:41:38
One area of debate regarding Lolth is Eclavdra. There is another thread on this very board touching on the issue of Eclavdra and her relationship (or non-relationship) with Lolth, Iggwilv, Grazzt, Iuz and the Elder Elemental Eye. If Eclavdra figures into your campaign, you might want to "pick your side" for the priestess to play for. If Eclavdra has made atonement with Lolth, the goddess could not be dead. Personally, I stick with the Elder Elemental Eye. But, if you don't use Eclavdra, then this argument is academic, as they say.

I am playing in a campaign where Eclavdra was the high priest for the Elder Elemental God, in the end Lolth had a hand in Eclavdra's destruction. Years later (game time) we found out that Eclavdra was indeed still alive, but now she was serving Lolth. We have not had the time to track her down, but we have found out that she makes regular trips to Dorakaa. It should be pretty interesting when are characters get all the info on her.
#19
zombiegleemax
Jun 17, 2005 17:49:33
And ripvanwormer is not kidding - do not pick up anything with the name Rose Estes on it. She might have been a talented children's author. But, she blundered horrendously when she typed up her Greyhawk Adventures novels. I read Master Wolf, and I regret the time wasted reading it.

I wouldn't entirely agree with you. I picked up her novels more for collection completeness than anything else and found myself reading them out of sheer curiosity. The biggest problem with Rose Estes is not her writing, which is pretty good as far as fantasy fiction goes. Rather, the problem lies in the fact that she is very unknowledgeable of Dungeons and Dragons and Greyhawk in particular. In one book, Mika and friends journey to a city ruled by priests of an evil sun god. There's no such god even close. However, if I suspend disbelief and instead envision myself in an alternate dimension Greyhawk, then the books are a splendid read. Just don't read them expecting to learn anything useful for your campaign because you won't find anything if you want to stick with canon.
#20
Elendur
Jun 18, 2005 18:26:20
Elendur, here are a couple of ideas for a follow up to the GDQ series of adventures. Of course, I am sure there are many options, these following are my choices.

The Harrowing from Dungeon 84 is pretty good, I think. It is v.3.0, and designed for 15th-level characters. It has handouts and an interesting phase pattern of play, revolving around an in-game timeline.

Speaking of Iuz, there is the 2nd Edition AD&D adventure WGR6 City of Skulls. It is in Dorakaa, the Old One's home town. I am sure it can be tweaked to involve Iuz, his Boneheart or both. It is only for character levels 9 to 12, though.

And, as Treymordin said above, A1-4 Slavers is pretty dang good.

Your campaign sounds interesting, Elendur. You'll have to let us know how it goes. Happy gaming.

Thanks for the info. We did A1-4 before the G's, so I definitely concur on it's coolness.

I'd really like to do the S series after GDQ, but I'd have to change them quite a bit since the characters will be 15 or 16th level by then.
#21
zombiegleemax
Jun 28, 2005 17:48:22 Doesnt the Epic Handbook say that Eclavadra was raised by Lolth or something? I like the Elder Elemental Eye however. Is there a place that lists which Houses in the Vault worship Lolth and those that worship the Elder Elemental Eye?
#22
Mortepierre
Jun 29, 2005 2:40:37 Yes, D3 Vault of the Drow. Info reprinted in the mega-module GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders.

To be fair, it's not very well outlined but if you read the section on the noble houses with attention, you can get the info.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_simple_seeker_ii May 31, 2005 10:48:30	A while back, I heard that Lolth was supposedly 'killed' in a Greyhawk module or book. Removed she was, from Oerth's sphere of influence. Now that she has gained Greater deity status in another realm. The big question comes to mind. Would she go and seek out the drow population in Oerth and seek to regain her 'lost' children back into the fold? And also, since the Eberron world has brought the drow into that world as well. It looks like Lolth's power base could jump up...greater. The drow there, has no idea of their true hertiage. What are your thoughts on this?
#2 ripvanwormer May 31, 2005 17:46:03	Lolth is still alive and active in Oerth in the current continuity. What you may be thinking of is that it was (theoretically) possible for her to be killed by PCs in the module Q1, Queen of the Demonweb Pits - but she wasn't given the powers of a goddess then. The storyline doesn't really work with the current interpretation of the powers of gods.
#3 Elendur May 31, 2005 17:48:34	I guess it depends on whether you view Lolth as a racial deity, akin to Moradin for the dwarves, etc, or if she is just a demonic entity the drow made a pact with. It seems to me originally demon lords were akin to minor gods and could grant spells to supplicants. (As could weird, undefined entities such as the EEG). So I don't see any particular reason the spider queen would show up in Eberron, since the cosmology is so different. If I were running drow in Eberron, I'd probably stick with the scorpion thing(or the umbragen, very cool). I don't know if there is a Greyhawk source that actually kills off Lolth, but in Q1 the heroes defeat her on her home plane, a very bad thing for a demon lord. The module implies she'd be out of commision for a long time, I'd say 20 years at least. She could come back just in time to spoil the heroes retirement party. But yeah, I think the drow would bargain with whatever infernal was offering, so she could make a comeback.
#4 Greyson May 31, 2005 22:48:23	I don't know if there is a Greyhawk source that actually kills off Lolth ... Escalla the twit, an annoying and stupid character from Paul Kidd's Queen of the Demonweb Pits, kills Lolth at the end of that novel. Lolth falls into a bag of holding full of acid or some ridiculous thing like that while in the Demonweb Pits. I don't think Lolth fits into Eberron at all. Hopefully, she will not figure into that campaign setting. The black elves of Eberron are not the same as the drow of Faerun or Greyhawk. I think their history and identity will be more closely developed with the ancient giants os Xen'Drik then with any other planar entity.
#5 Brom_Blackforge Jun 01, 2005 11:00:37	The original post mentioned something about Lolth gaining power "in another realm." I don't own it, but I remember paging through the Forgotten Realms supplement "Faiths and Pantheons" (co-authored by Erik Mona) and finding some mention that the Lolth of the FR is not the Lolth of Oerth (the same being true of all the racial deities). It was something akin to Neil Gaiman's novel "American Gods" - when the demihuman races arrived in FR, they brought versions of their gods with them, or something like that. It struck me kind of odd, and something completely contrary to earlier stuff (like all of Planescape, for instance, or stories about notable NPCs traveling from one setting to the other). Anyway, the original post reminded me of that, so I thought I'd share.
#6 ripvanwormer Jun 01, 2005 18:20:02	Escalla the twit, an annoying and stupid character from Paul Kidd's Queen of the Demonweb Pits, kills Lolth at the end of that novel. Lolth falls into a bag of holding full of acid or some ridiculous thing like that while in the Demonweb Pits. It doesn't seem that that book - or any Greyhawk novel, for that matter - has become part of the current setting's canon. Even Gygax's own novels are part of their own continuity, not that of the RPG line.
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 02, 2005 5:36:49	Even Gygax's own novels are part of their own continuity, not that of the RPG line. Well, elements (such as Evaleigh of Knurl and Obmi for example) of the first two Gord novels, Tale of Old City and Artifact of Evil, seem to have been incorporated into post GH '98 RPG material. Personally I consider them pretty much canon - but YMMV.
#8 Greyson Jun 02, 2005 12:16:11	It doesn't seem that that book - or any Greyhawk novel, for that matter - has become part of the current setting's canon. I was just citing that particular book as a source of information, whether it be literal or potential canon in the setting or not. Speaking of Mr. Gygax, Paul noted two items of material used directly from Gygax books that manifest in the setting. I certainly think novels can be considered sources for the setting. At least to draw inferences and contrasts, if not demonstrable canon. Happy gaming.
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 02, 2005 14:28:15	I was under the impression, that if a demon or a god were defeated on the Prime Plane, that they were sent back to their home place for a century. If they are defeated on their home plan it was finito for them.
#10 ripvanwormer Jun 02, 2005 16:33:21	I certainly think novels can be considered sources for the setting. At least to draw inferences and contrasts, if not demonstrable canon. I agree with you. Certainly, some aspects of the Gord novels have made their way into the continuity - arguably, the entire Greyhawk Wars sequence parallels the wars in (was it the third or fourth book?): Iuz conquers the North, the Scarlet Brotherhood conquers the South, Graz'zt conquers three layers of the Abyss. That all happened. But it's not exactly the same. Novels enrich the setting, but they don't determine it (unlike the Forgotten Realms).
#11 zombiegleemax Jun 02, 2005 16:35:35	How does one obtain those novels and what are their titles?
#12 Elendur Jun 02, 2005 16:37:35	I was under the impression, that if a demon or a god were defeated on the Prime Plane, that they were sent back to their home place for a century. If they are defeated on their home plan it was finito for them. I'd agree with that in general, but Q1 specifically mentions Lolth only being severely diminished in power, not totally destroyed. Perhaps she had some contingency plan in place. Personally in my campaign she'll be good as dead at that point.
#13 ripvanwormer Jun 02, 2005 16:42:23	How does one obtain those novels I got them from used bookstores. and what are their titles? This is the Gord the Rogue sequence by Gary Gygax: 1. Saga of Old City 2. Artifact of Evil 3. Sea of Death 4. Come Endless Darkness 5. Dance of Demons Short stories: - Night Arrant - City of Hawks - "At Moonset Blackcat Comes," Dragon Magazine #100 - "Evening Odds," from Pawn of Chaos (White Wolf) I would avoid anything that says Rose Estes on the cover.
#14 Greyson Jun 02, 2005 17:45:54	Personally in my campaign she'll (Lolth) be good as dead at that point. One area of debate regarding Lolth is Eclavdra. There is another thread on this very board touching on the issue of Eclavdra and her relationship (or non-relationship) with Lolth, Iggwilv, Grazzt, Iuz and the Elder Elemental Eye. If Eclavdra figures into your campaign, you might want to "pick your side" for the priestess to play for. If Eclavdra has made atonement with Lolth, the goddess could not be dead. Personally, I stick with the Elder Elemental Eye. But, if you don't use Eclavdra, then this argument is academic, as they say. Between Amazon.com and eBay, I was able to pick up all of Gygax's Gord books, including Dragon #100 last year. Eric Mona's old page is still up from his UM days. Check it out and click on the Saga of Old City image to see his interesting notes. CLICK HERE And ripvanwormer is not kidding - do not pick up anything with the name Rose Estes on it. She might have been a talented children's author. But, she blundered horrendously when she typed up her Greyhawk Adventures novels. I read Master Wolf, and I regret the time wasted reading it. Is this thread still on topic? lol
#15 Elendur Jun 02, 2005 19:51:16	If Eclavdra figures into your campaign, you might want to "pick your side" for the priestess to play for. I'm running pretty straight off the original GDQ modules (not even the compilation), so she'll be EEE all the way. I don't know, demon queens just don't seem like the forgiving type to me. Maybe if Eclavdra could offer her some shortcut back into power. But as I said, that'll be outside the scope of my current campaign. After GDQ there will probably be some eventual showdown against Iuz. p.s. Any thread that doesn't bash wizards, rules editions, or other people/websites is gloriously on topic as far as I'm concerned.
#16 zombiegleemax Jun 03, 2005 15:04:53	I am going to be running the Slave Lords, Giants, Underdark, Demon Web Pits for some people who have never experienced them. I plan on them becoming epic before they get to the Demonweb.
#17 Greyson Jun 03, 2005 23:58:59	After GDQ there will probably be some eventual showdown against Iuz. Elendur, here are a couple of ideas for a follow up to the GDQ series of adventures. Of course, I am sure there are many options, these following are my choices. The Harrowing from Dungeon 84 is pretty good, I think. It is v.3.0, and designed for 15th-level characters. It has handouts and an interesting phase pattern of play, revolving around an in-game timeline. Speaking of Iuz, there is the 2nd Edition AD&D adventure WGR6 City of Skulls. It is in Dorakaa, the Old One's home town. I am sure it can be tweaked to involve Iuz, his Boneheart or both. It is only for character levels 9 to 12, though. And, as Treymordin said above, A1-4 Slavers is pretty dang good. Your campaign sounds interesting, Elendur. You'll have to let us know how it goes. Happy gaming.
#18 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2005 15:41:38	One area of debate regarding Lolth is Eclavdra. There is another thread on this very board touching on the issue of Eclavdra and her relationship (or non-relationship) with Lolth, Iggwilv, Grazzt, Iuz and the Elder Elemental Eye. If Eclavdra figures into your campaign, you might want to "pick your side" for the priestess to play for. If Eclavdra has made atonement with Lolth, the goddess could not be dead. Personally, I stick with the Elder Elemental Eye. But, if you don't use Eclavdra, then this argument is academic, as they say. I am playing in a campaign where Eclavdra was the high priest for the Elder Elemental God, in the end Lolth had a hand in Eclavdra's destruction. Years later (game time) we found out that Eclavdra was indeed still alive, but now she was serving Lolth. We have not had the time to track her down, but we have found out that she makes regular trips to Dorakaa. It should be pretty interesting when are characters get all the info on her.
#19 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2005 17:49:33	And ripvanwormer is not kidding - do not pick up anything with the name Rose Estes on it. She might have been a talented children's author. But, she blundered horrendously when she typed up her Greyhawk Adventures novels. I read Master Wolf, and I regret the time wasted reading it. I wouldn't entirely agree with you. I picked up her novels more for collection completeness than anything else and found myself reading them out of sheer curiosity. The biggest problem with Rose Estes is not her writing, which is pretty good as far as fantasy fiction goes. Rather, the problem lies in the fact that she is very unknowledgeable of Dungeons and Dragons and Greyhawk in particular. In one book, Mika and friends journey to a city ruled by priests of an evil sun god. There's no such god even close. However, if I suspend disbelief and instead envision myself in an alternate dimension Greyhawk, then the books are a splendid read. Just don't read them expecting to learn anything useful for your campaign because you won't find anything if you want to stick with canon.
#20 Elendur Jun 18, 2005 18:26:20	Elendur, here are a couple of ideas for a follow up to the GDQ series of adventures. Of course, I am sure there are many options, these following are my choices. The Harrowing from Dungeon 84 is pretty good, I think. It is v.3.0, and designed for 15th-level characters. It has handouts and an interesting phase pattern of play, revolving around an in-game timeline. Speaking of Iuz, there is the 2nd Edition AD&D adventure WGR6 City of Skulls. It is in Dorakaa, the Old One's home town. I am sure it can be tweaked to involve Iuz, his Boneheart or both. It is only for character levels 9 to 12, though. And, as Treymordin said above, A1-4 Slavers is pretty dang good. Your campaign sounds interesting, Elendur. You'll have to let us know how it goes. Happy gaming. Thanks for the info. We did A1-4 before the G's, so I definitely concur on it's coolness. I'd really like to do the S series after GDQ, but I'd have to change them quite a bit since the characters will be 15 or 16th level by then.
#21 zombiegleemax Jun 28, 2005 17:48:22	Doesnt the Epic Handbook say that Eclavadra was raised by Lolth or something? I like the Elder Elemental Eye however. Is there a place that lists which Houses in the Vault worship Lolth and those that worship the Elder Elemental Eye?
#22 Mortepierre Jun 29, 2005 2:40:37	Yes, D3 Vault of the Drow. Info reprinted in the mega-module GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders. To be fair, it's not very well outlined but if you read the section on the noble houses with attention, you can get the info.