All the arcane and divine casters, with the exceptions of Templars, are able to become advanced beings. Avangions and dragons, Elemental clerics and spirits of the land, each being has a tie to the method of casting and belief that the caster clung to.
I realize that a templar gets his power from his sorcerer-king, but the power is transfered through (or comes directly from) an elemental vortex that has connected to the monarch. If a Templar gained enough knowledge of psionics to use psionic enhancements, would it be possible for him to gain a much better understanding of this connection and become an advanced being.
I figured that, if it could happen, the Templar would become a being similar to the elemental vortex. He begins to detact from his sorcerer-king, eventually gaining the ability to cast his spells independantly and perhaps more spells known. Most importantly, he would gain the ability to siphon magic/psionic power/other power from other beings, similar to the Ur-priests ability.
I doubt that a sorcerer-king would willingly allow such a being to exist, but in a world as large as Athas, it's always possible that someone could figure it out and make the first steps of the transformation.
What does the community think?
I don't know if anyone has ever broached the subject, but I was wondering if anyone had opinions on Templar Advanced Beings.
All the arcane and divine casters, with the exceptions of Templars, are able to become advanced beings. Avangions and dragons, Elemental clerics and spirits of the land, each being has a tie to the method of casting and belief that the caster clung to.
I realize that a templar gets his power from his sorcerer-king, but the power is transfered through (or comes directly from) an elemental vortex that has connected to the monarch. If a Templar gained enough knowledge of psionics to use psionic enhancements, would it be possible for him to gain a much better understanding of this connection and become an advanced being.
I figured that, if it could happen, the Templar would become a being similar to the elemental vortex. He begins to detact from his sorcerer-king, eventually gaining the ability to cast his spells independantly and perhaps more spells known. Most importantly, he would gain the ability to siphon magic/psionic power/other power from other beings, similar to the Ur-priests ability.
I doubt that a sorcerer-king would willingly allow such a being to exist, but in a world as large as Athas, it's always possible that someone could figure it out and make the first steps of the transformation.
What does the community think?
I personally am aganst the idea of a Templar Advanced Being. first of which - a Sorcerer-King just wouldn't let someone get that powerful that works for him/her. Second, the Divine Advanced Beings were more or less granted, by the elemental powers (or Spirits of the Land) to undertake the procedure, rather than taking the power themselves and doing it all through their own hard work and effort (IE: what both Dragons and Avangions do). The Templars exist at all, through an unnatural stealing of these divine energies that the Sorcerer-Kings themselves might not fully understand how it works, and as such, Templars aren't really provided power granted by the elemental powers/spirits of the land - it's stolen. And the elemental powers/spirits of the land won't exactly be granting a group that's stealing their power the advancement into such beings.
It does mean that Templars do have that disadvantage of not becoming an Advanced Being - but then again, your average character wouldn't be fully aware of the Advanced Beings as such to begin with, and even more, that there are multiple kinds in existence. those that do discover the path, might simply not catch on (characters, that is) that such a path is open to other class combinations. And finally - what Templar would walk up to their Monarch, and request to become something more powerful than a mere Templar, who coul potentially become a threat to that Monarch's own power, and expect to survive the encounter?
So no, I just don't see Templar Advanced Beings. It makes no sense from a setting standpoint at all.
I personally am aganst the idea of a Templar Advanced Being. first of which - a Sorcerer-King just wouldn't let someone get that powerful that works for him/her.
In which case there should be a level cap on any character with templar levels. Something that limits them from rising to anymore than say... four to five level below their own. If sorcerer-kings aren't totally omnipotent, the Templar might be able to keep it secret until they take the first step and break from the king's power.
Second, the Divine Advanced Beings were more or less granted, by the elemental powers (or Spirits of the Land) to undertake the procedure, rather than taking the power themselves and doing it all through their own hard work and effort (IE: what both Dragons and Avangions do). The Templars exist at all, through an unnatural stealing of these divine energies that the Sorcerer-Kings themselves might not fully understand how it works, and as such, Templars aren't really provided power granted by the elemental powers/spirits of the land - it's stolen. And the elemental powers/spirits of the land won't exactly be granting a group that's stealing their power the advancement into such beings.
Templars gain their spells from the SK's through the elemental vorticies. The vorticies either draw the power from the land, elements or the kings themselves, and distribute it according to the sorcerer-king's wishes. As an apparently mindless being, it doesn't seem to care how its magic is used or distributed. If a Templar reached the point where he could make the transformation, the vortex might grant the necessary power whether the SK agreed or not. No one knows how they work, and they might see it as an act akin to reproduction.
It does mean that Templars do have that disadvantage of not becoming an Advanced Being - but then again, your average character wouldn't be fully aware of the Advanced Beings as such to begin with, and even more, that there are multiple kinds in existence. those that do discover the path, might simply not catch on (characters, that is) that such a path is open to other class combinations.
Yes, but that's a weak reason for not allowing it. The character's might not know, but the players do, and saying that their character's wouldn't know about Elemental Clerics isn't a reason to disallow that Advanced Being. After all, I don't believe that there are any Elemental Clerics actually around on Athas. Perhaps I'm wrong.
And finally - what Templar would walk up to their Monarch, and request to become something more powerful than a mere Templar, who coul potentially become a threat to that Monarch's own power, and expect to survive the encounter?
I agree with you there. Of course, it depends on a few things. One is that the SK knows every spell that every templar casts and says yes or no. While Lynn Abbey portrayed it in that way, she also said that the mere act of granting the spells made the SK progress down the path of Dragonhood. If, instead, it is more like the SK has a vauge impression about the energy being drawn if not the spell, then the transformation is more possible.
What Advanced Being doesn't suffer from being hunted by the Sorcerer-Kings? A Templar Energy Stealer would suffer the same problems as the rest, if not more when the sorcerer-king realizes that the man is gaining his spells independently.
So no, I just don't see Templar Advanced Beings. It makes no sense from a setting standpoint at all.
Elemental clerics draw closer to their elements, from which they draw their power. Druids join with the spirits of the land, from which they draw their power. Dragon magic draws off the energy of life, mimicing the act of defiling, while Avangion magic draws from... um themselves? Their minds? Something like that.
A Templar who reaches the peak of his potential has drawn as close to the Elemental Vortex that grants his power as he can. If he can cast psionic enhancements, perhaps he is able to sense something about the link between himself, the vortex and his king, something that the king is unable to sense from his end. He draws closer to that being, acting as a power siphon, until he discovers a way to raise himself to something more like it.
As you said, the link isn't understood very well, and neither are the Elemental Vorticies. In that case, the vortex itself might allow the energy to be drawn, or it might not care and the Templar figures out a way to siphon the needed energy out over a very long period of time through his psionic enhancements. All of the other Advanced Beings had rituals attatched to their transformational stages. The Templars might drain a tiny, unnoticed bit of extra power everyday, and then uses it all when the psionic enhancement spell is finally cast.
Yes, the SK will eventually notice, but perhaps the Templar is now independant, or is loyal enough to have uses for a while. Just like every other character that takes a step along the path of an advanced being, they become a target. They're a high priority target, just as an Avangion is a more important target than an Elemental Cleric or Spirit of the Land.
If someone can think of a valid way to sneak enough energy for their first step in the transformation, not too difficult if the Templar gains enough knowledge of the link to realize that the spells aren't coming directly from the SK, then it would seem that it could fit into the setting.
I suppose that a templar, who, as all advanced beings, would have to be a very potent psionicist, could find a way to use psionics to cause the living vortex to pruduce a new vortex, or maybe the Templar could use a psionic variant of the Origin of Species epic spell to create a new vortex for himself, which would be a much less complex lifeform than the vortices connected to the Sorceror Kings, because it only has to connect one being to the Elemental Planes, not hundreds or thousands. This being said, what type of being would an AB templar become? Something between an AB elemental and an Avangion, maybe? Or perhaps some kind of tetra-elemental?
Probably similar to a visible Elemental Vortex, something new. What does that look like? I have no clue. I'm leaning towards something with tendrils and a "container" for storing stolen power. Perhaps something insectile.
Thinking up the form of a new advanced being probably takes a lot of brainstorming. Clerics and druids were easy, its the Avangions and their ilk that are hard.
In which case there should be a level cap on any character with templar levels. Something that limits them from rising to anymore than say... four to five level below their own. If sorcerer-kings aren't totally omnipotent, the Templar might be able to keep it secret until they take the first step and break from the king's power.
Level caps go against the 3.5e ideology, and thus isn't allowed by it. Not making a PrC for some abstract idea that doesn't exist in the setting, is very much in-line with the 3.5e ideology.
Templars gain their spells from the SK's through the elemental vorticies. The vorticies either draw the power from the land, elements or the kings themselves, and distribute it according to the sorcerer-king's wishes. As an apparently mindless being, it doesn't seem to care how its magic is used or distributed. If a Templar reached the point where he could make the transformation, the vortex might grant the necessary power whether the SK agreed or not. No one knows how they work, and they might see it as an act akin to reproduction.
The Sorcerer-Kings may not know each and every spell that's being cast (as that would be a mind-full), but you can bet that they know just how much power they are dishing out to different Templars - especially those that are grabbing more and more power. That would be like the one guy wearing all yellow in a sea of black suits.
Yes, but that's a weak reason for not allowing it. The character's might not know, but the players do, and saying that their character's wouldn't know about Elemental Clerics isn't a reason to disallow that Advanced Being. After all, I don't believe that there are any Elemental Clerics actually around on Athas. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Understand that I'm of the belief that player knowledge and character knowledge should never be mixed up. It's a very valid reasoning there. It's not an excuse for not having them - but it does mean that the characters shouldn't be even remotely aware that Advanced Beings exist (fortunately, I have a group that for the most part, don't even know what "Advanced Being" means).
I agree with you there. Of course, it depends on a few things. One is that the SK knows every spell that every templar casts and says yes or no. While Lynn Abbey portrayed it in that way, she also said that the mere act of granting the spells made the SK progress down the path of Dragonhood. If, instead, it is more like the SK has a vauge impression about the energy being drawn if not the spell, then the transformation is more possible.
Well, Lynn Abbey had some communication problems. But there is nothing which says that a Templar can recieve spells without their respective Monarch's approval - period. As such, assuming that some Templar can steal that power from the Sorcerer-Monarch - especially the amount of power that would be involved in becoming an Advanced Being, is ludicrous bordering on total insanity. Even if the Sorcerer-Monarch is only vaguely aware of the energy being drawn - we're not talking about some little "Cure Light Wounds" spell here. Hell, we're not even talking about something as simple as a Miracle spell here. We're talking about someone grabbing enough power to literally change their very essential being into something as close to a Deity as is possible on Athas.
What Advanced Being doesn't suffer from being hunted by the Sorcerer-Kings? A Templar Energy Stealer would suffer the same problems as the rest, if not more when the sorcerer-king realizes that the man is gaining his spells independently.
Umm... the thing is - the other Advanced Beings can hide from the Sorcerer-Monarchs. They don't, well, [i]get their spells and power from them[/b]. A Templar Advanced Being isn't gonna be some weak, low-rank nobody who can slip away unnoticed by the Sorcerer-Monarch. This is someone who is definitely in the upper-echelons, the elite of the Templarate for that city, who then starts drawing even more power to enact the transformation. That will get the Monarch's attention. Even Oronis or Daskinor would be seriously concerned about such a person.
Elemental clerics draw closer to their elements, from which they draw their power. Druids join with the spirits of the land, from which they draw their power. Dragon magic draws off the energy of life, mimicing the act of defiling, while Avangion magic draws from... um themselves? Their minds? Something like that.
Ahh, but Dragons and Avangions make themselves what they are. They start the process, and work steadily at it - represented by the spells they research and cast. Elementals and Spirits of the Land don't quite work the same way. They sort of transfigure into these beings, and are granted the ability to undergo the process from their respective power source. That is a significant, major difference in how this all occurs. Templars, as they are divine spellcasters, not arcane, would, as logic dictates, follow in the same general footsteps as the other divine Advanced Beings. So, that once again is a Templar getting granted the process to become an Advanced Being by their respective Sorcerer-Monarch (don't forget, the Elemental Vortices died when they fused into the Sorcerer-Monarchs when Borys used the Dark Lens - the Sorcerer-Monarch doesn't have a Living Elemental Vortex there any more - they just have that sort of"funnel" of energy, which they themselves cannot use, but can grant to other people - IE, the Templars.)
A Templar who reaches the peak of his potential has drawn as close to the Elemental Vortex that grants his power as he can. If he can cast psionic enhancements, perhaps he is able to sense something about the link between himself, the vortex and his king, something that the king is unable to sense from his end. He draws closer to that being, acting as a power siphon, until he discovers a way to raise himself to something more like it.
But the Living Vortices are extinct. They don't exist any more. What was left of them fused into the Sorcerer-Monarchs and became part of the Monarchs themselves.
As you said, the link isn't understood very well, and neither are the Elemental Vorticies. In that case, the vortex itself might allow the energy to be drawn, or it might not care and the Templar figures out a way to siphon the needed energy out over a very long period of time through his psionic enhancements. All of the other Advanced Beings had rituals attatched to their transformational stages. The Templars might drain a tiny, unnoticed bit of extra power everyday, and then uses it all when the psionic enhancement spell is finally cast.
It's not understood very well by the Monarchs themselves - it's a bizarre, unexpected side-effect from being granted Dragonhood by the Dark Lens as far as they are concerned. That doesn't mean that the books haven't explained that the Vortices are dead and that the energy comes from the SM's themselves now.
Yes, the SK will eventually notice, but perhaps the Templar is now independant, or is loyal enough to have uses for a while. Just like every other character that takes a step along the path of an advanced being, they become a target. They're a high priority target, just as an Avangion is a more important target than an Elemental Cleric or Spirit of the Land.
Sorry, if Templars could get their power independent of a Sorcerer-Monarch, then I think the Sorcerer-Monarchs would have wiped them out a long time ago. It would be too much of a risk.
If someone can think of a valid way to sneak enough energy for their first step in the transformation, not too difficult if the Templar gains enough knowledge of the link to realize that the spells aren't coming directly from the SK, then it would seem that it could fit into the setting.
I am sorry, but there's just no way - without reaching a lot, and deviating from the official setting a bunch as well, to get such a thing to happen. If your players want to become Advanced Beings, they just don't look to a Templar as the solution. Look to Wizards (or Sorcerers if you allow them), Clerics, or Druids (and don't forget that you need to be a Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, or possibly an Erudite if you include it as well).
Next you'll be asking why Rangers can't become Advanced Beings - since officially, a Ranger can cast spells too.
Templars turn into an Energy Vortex and are drawn to a sorcerer-king to start mindlessly dolling out power to new templars 
Level caps go against the 3.5e ideology, and thus isn't allowed by it. Not making a PrC for some abstract idea that doesn't exist in the setting, is very much in-line with the 3.5e ideology.
Elemental Clerics and druids who became Spirits of the Land were not part of the setting from the very beginning. They were introduced in Dragon Kings. The concept has to come from somewhere.
You said that no SK would allow a Templar to gain that much power. If that's true, then Templar's should have a mechanical level cap. It goes against the design of 3.5, but you yourself pointed out that no SK would allow their Templars to become that strong. I'd rather leave it to the actions of the Templar, and whether or not he is discovered by the Sorcerer-King.
The Sorcerer-Kings may not know each and every spell that's being cast (as that would be a mind-full), but you can bet that they know just how much power they are dishing out to different Templars - especially those that are grabbing more and more power. That would be like the one guy wearing all yellow in a sea of black suits.
Perhaps no one has gotten to that level of power yet. The SK is going to keep a close eye on any higher level Templar. It doesn't mean that he's going to ask the circumstances of every spell.
And if the drawing of enough power for a psionic enhancement is such a concern to the SK, then Templar's shouldn't be allowed to cast psionic enhancements at all. Or, like with the Templar's personal power level, you can handle it in game.
Understand that I'm of the belief that player knowledge and character knowledge should never be mixed up. It's a very valid reasoning there. It's not an excuse for not having them - but it does mean that the characters shouldn't be even remotely aware that Advanced Beings exist (fortunately, I have a group that for the most part, don't even know what "Advanced Being" means).
I understand what you're saying, but what happens when, in game, the player's do find out about advanced beings and begin to research them, in character. Perhaps they discover the Avangion transformation process, discover more about Boyrs, and/or meet a Spirit of the Land that was once a druid. At epic levels, this becomes more and more likely. If the Templar really beings to look into it, it really isn't fair to penalize the player for picking the wrong class at first level.
Well, Lynn Abbey had some communication problems. But there is nothing which says that a Templar can recieve spells without their respective Monarch's approval - period. As such, assuming that some Templar can steal that power from the Sorcerer-Monarch - especially the amount of power that would be involved in becoming an Advanced Being, is ludicrous bordering on total insanity. Even if the Sorcerer-Monarch is only vaguely aware of the energy being drawn - we're not talking about some little "Cure Light Wounds" spell here. Hell, we're not even talking about something as simple as a Miracle spell here. We're talking about someone grabbing enough power to literally change their very essential being into something as close to a Deity as is possible on Athas.
Then no Templar's should be able to cast psionic enhancements of any kind. They use a similar amount of power. At the same time, a Sorcerer-King who has a templar who had stayed loyal for that long would have an extremely useful tool. Besides, I mentioned in my above post that they become independant of the SK, most likely after their first step. The power necessary for cast the psionic enhancement would involve a ritual similar to that of Dragons and Avangions, possibly involving the stealing of tiny, unnoticed amounts of extra energy over a long period of time and storing them in some kind of object. When the object is full, the Templar is able to take a step.
Umm... the thing is - the other Advanced Beings can hide from the Sorcerer-Monarchs. They don't, well, [i]get their spells and power from them[/b]. A Templar Advanced Being isn't gonna be some weak, low-rank nobody who can slip away unnoticed by the Sorcerer-Monarch. This is someone who is definitely in the upper-echelons, the elite of the Templarate for that city, who then starts drawing even more power to enact the transformation. That will get the Monarch's attention. Even Oronis or Daskinor would be seriously concerned about such a person.
As I mentioned above, the power could be drawn slowly over time, similar to the time and effort an Avangion or Dragon invests in carving out their crystal "tomb" or gathering the sacrifices. If done wisely (and what Templar who has reached that level of power doesn't know how to be subtle and crafty) he could reach the first step fairly unnoticed. And when he hits that level, he prepares to run, just like anyone else that hits AB level.
Ahh, but Dragons and Avangions make themselves what they are. They start the process, and work steadily at it - represented by the spells they research and cast. Elementals and Spirits of the Land don't quite work the same way. They sort of transfigure into these beings, and are granted the ability to undergo the process from their respective power source. That is a significant, major difference in how this all occurs. Templars, as they are divine spellcasters, not arcane, would, as logic dictates, follow in the same general footsteps as the other divine Advanced Beings. So, that once again is a Templar getting granted the process to become an Advanced Being by their respective Sorcerer-Monarch (don't forget, the Elemental Vortices died when they fused into the Sorcerer-Monarchs when Borys used the Dark Lens - the Sorcerer-Monarch doesn't have a Living Elemental Vortex there any more - they just have that sort of"funnel" of energy, which they themselves cannot use, but can grant to other people - IE, the Templars.)
The link between a SK and his templars is not the same as a druid or cleric and their patron. They gain their powers from a link that their patron doesn't even understand. The personal knowledge necessary to use psionic enhancements involves quite a lot of examination of how the power is drawn and where it comes from. If the Templar is just getting his out of a funnel, it isn't too hard to see him learning how to funnel power from other sources, the same way wizards suddenly learned how to cast spells with shadow/cerulian storms/and necromancy when Preservers and Defilers came out. Once he knows how to tap into things other than the sorcerer-kings (such as Spirits of the Land, energy from the elements) and forcibly use them to power their spells, then he has become independent of his SK.
It all depends on whether or not you believe that SK's micro-manage every scrap of spell power taken from them and knows what the spell is. He might even think that the extra power is going to a metamagic feat for all we know. The exact nature of that has not been defined, and you can take a lot of leway in fleshing it out.
Also, I was pretty sure that clerics and druids had to make the changes themselves. After all, if it were a gift from their element, why would they be required to use psionic enhancements to begin the change? They want to make the change, and the patron just doesn't say no. Otherwise, there would probably many more clerics who would know what they could become.
But the Living Vortices are extinct. They don't exist any more. What was left of them fused into the Sorcerer-Monarchs and became part of the Monarchs themselves.
Yet they still grant spells. If it isn't alive, then the Templar could still examine the link enough to realize that there is something there. Enough examination and they might even discover the metaphysical fossil of the elemental votrex.
It's not understood very well by the Monarchs themselves - it's a bizarre, unexpected side-effect from being granted Dragonhood by the Dark Lens as far as they are concerned. That doesn't mean that the books haven't explained that the Vortices are dead and that the energy comes from the SM's themselves now.
The energy comes from the SK's, but through the remains of the vortex. You said that Templar's gain their spells from stolen energy. One that has reached the level of casting psionic enhancements probably has enough power to start stealing it from other places.
Athasian magic is all about taking the power from somewhere else.
Sorry, if Templars could get their power independent of a Sorcerer-Monarch, then I think the Sorcerer-Monarchs would have wiped them out a long time ago. It would be too much of a risk.
The SK's keep pet defilers, full knowing that they could one day become Dragons in their own right. They just watch them closely. The city states couldn't work without the Templars, and more than a few SK's use the fact that they grant spells to convince their subjects that they are gods. If they don't know that Templars can become AB, then they don't know what they're watching for. If they ever found out, they could wipe out all templars and plunge their city-state into ruin, stop granting spells and lose their claim at divinity, and show a weakness or moment of doubt to their people, or they could treat Templar's like their pet defilers and watch them for signs of rising in power.
I am sorry, but there's just no way - without reaching a lot, and deviating from the official setting a bunch as well, to get such a thing to happen. If your players want to become Advanced Beings, they just don't look to a Templar as the solution. Look to Wizards (or Sorcerers if you allow them), Clerics, or Druids *SNIP*
I feel that I've explained myself well enough above to show how it could work in the official setting. Athasian magic always comes from something else. An Advanced Being who has spent that much time stealing power could probably find a way to change themselves into a being that can naturally steal it.
*SNIP*(and don't forget that you need to be a Psion, Wilder, Psychic Warrior, or possibly an Erudite if you include it as well).
And a character of that power level would probably be able to figure out a way to pull it off.
Next you'll be asking why Rangers can't become Advanced Beings - since officially, a Ranger can cast spells too.
Not in Athas they can't. Neither can bards. Which only leaves Templars out in the cold.
If no SK would allow their Templars to reach that level of power, the player should be warned that their character has a built in expiery date when they take a level in the class. If the SK's are willing to employ defilers know what they could become, then they wouldn't dump their Templar's because of what could happen. Yes, the Templar would be hunted, probably more than an Avangion, but that is the fate of all Advanced Beings. Unlike the Elements and Spirits of the Land, Sorcerer-Kings have very mortal concerns to take up their time. They aren't omnicient, and things can slip past them. Once that first step has been taken, it's too late and the hunt is on.
Also, I never claimed that they became Elemental Vorticies, I said that they became similar to them. They wouldn't be drawn to Sorcerer-Kings any more than an Athasian Dragon is drawn to tying up princesses and sitting on gold. I like Terminus Vortexa's cephalopod idea, but they would be independent creatures. They would become something like an Ur-priest and a Spellthief, mechanics wise.
Magic on Athas comes from stolen energy. Why couldn't a 30-40th level character figure out how to make that connection with other divine beings and force the power from them?
Elemental Cleric Turn into an elmental. Druids turn into a spirit of the land. All the Advanced beings undergo a transformation, so what
Never said that. They turn into something that can tap into other things and draw their power, like an Ur-priest and a Spellthief. Using the power of others for their own gain. Its what they have been doing with the sorcerer-kings for years.
Maybe they become something like a landbased Silt Horror, with tendrils that can drain the stored spells out of a helpless caster and from the Spirit of the Lands itself. A druid doesn't become useless when he fuses with the Spirit, why would a Templar who makes his transformation?
Perhaps a mechanic like this would work for templars who no longer wish to serve their SK (or those who lost their SK) and change to levels of another divine spell caster class. This would allow them to pursue their goal in achieving to be an advance being.
Just a thought.
Elemental Clerics and druids who became Spirits of the Land were not part of the setting from the very beginning. They were introduced in Dragon Kings. The concept has to come from somewhere.
You said that no SK would allow a Templar to gain that much power. If that's true, then Templar's should have a mechanical level cap. It goes against the design of 3.5, but you yourself pointed out that no SK would allow their Templars to become that strong. I'd rather leave it to the actions of the Templar, and whether or not he is discovered by the Sorcerer-King.
Um first off even in the books the SK's were big on killing their high templars when they got too powerful. And there is no SK that would not be watching their high ranking templars..... after all they know better than anyone that power corrupts.
Perhaps no one has gotten to that level of power yet. The SK is going to keep a close eye on any higher level Templar. It doesn't mean that he's going to ask the circumstances of every spell.
And if the drawing of enough power for a psionic enhancement is such a concern to the SK, then Templar's shouldn't be allowed to cast psionic enhancements at all. Or, like with the Templar's personal power level, you can handle it in game.
Actually by every version of the rules EVER put out templars could NOT cast psionic enchantments. And personnally I think it goes against everything in the setting to allow them to. They are granted their power by their SK.... just like druids and clerics are granted their power. Note the advanced being forms for druids and clerics are granted to their followers..... not attained through personal power. Note also templars choose their known spells from the templar list...... ie the SK limits what kind of magics their templars know how to use.
I understand what you're saying, but what happens when, in game, the player's do find out about advanced beings and begin to research them, in character. Perhaps they discover the Avangion transformation process, discover more about Boyrs, and/or meet a Spirit of the Land that was once a druid. At epic levels, this becomes more and more likely. If the Templar really beings to look into it, it really isn't fair to penalize the player for picking the wrong class at first level.
Same thing happens to a fighter or a rogue who starts finding out about the Advanced Beings...... they see what other people can become.
Also note at least Lynn Abbey's books several templars learned to become Druids...... they have the option to forge a link to another divine source. (this could be easily done with a prestige class for ex templars)
Then no Templar's should be able to cast psionic enhancements of any kind. They use a similar amount of power. At the same time, a Sorcerer-King who has a templar who had stayed loyal for that long would have an extremely useful tool. Besides, I mentioned in my above post that they become independant of the SK, most likely after their first step. The power necessary for cast the psionic enhancement would involve a ritual similar to that of Dragons and Avangions, possibly involving the stealing of tiny, unnoticed amounts of extra energy over a long period of time and storing them in some kind of object. When the object is full, the Templar is able to take a step.
again, per every source templars cannot cast psionic enchantments in 2ed or in the latest edition. (note so far in the epic bureau we have been having the psionic enchantments be only aquired by taking levels in the advanced being PrC's)
On Epic spells, IMHO, they need to follow the same rules as normal spells for templars.... templars only have access to those divine spells the SK's allow them.
As I mentioned above, the power could be drawn slowly over time, similar to the time and effort an Avangion or Dragon invests in carving out their crystal "tomb" or gathering the sacrifices. If done wisely (and what Templar who has reached that level of power doesn't know how to be subtle and crafty) he could reach the first step fairly unnoticed. And when he hits that level, he prepares to run, just like anyone else that hits AB level.[/QUOTE}
But again that is not how divine casters transform...... that is how Arcane casters transform...... there is a huge differenceThe link between a SK and his templars is not the same as a druid or cleric and their patron. They gain their powers from a link that their patron doesn't even understand. The personal knowledge necessary to use psionic enhancements involves quite a lot of examination of how the power is drawn and where it comes from. If the Templar is just getting his out of a funnel, it isn't too hard to see him learning how to funnel power from other sources, the same way wizards suddenly learned how to cast spells with shadow/cerulian storms/and necromancy when Preservers and Defilers came out. Once he knows how to tap into things other than the sorcerer-kings (such as Spirits of the Land, energy from the elements) and forcibly use them to power their spells, then he has become independent of his SK.
This would be a good example for allowing Ur-Priest into Athas, which could possibly make a way for someone to become some other form of being (possibly on the level of an advanced being) BUT they would no longer be a templar once they started this and it would not be a templar advanced being but more of a Ur-Priest advanced being...... big difference.It all depends on whether or not you believe that SK's micro-manage every scrap of spell power taken from them and knows what the spell is. He might even think that the extra power is going to a metamagic feat for all we know. The exact nature of that has not been defined, and you can take a lot of leway in fleshing it out.
per the rules they do...... templars have a very limited spell list to choose from and they have spells they are required to take. So while the SK may not know what you are casting at an exact minute (depending on DM) they do know what you are capable of casting.Also, I was pretty sure that clerics and druids had to make the changes themselves. After all, if it were a gift from their element, why would they be required to use psionic enhancements to begin the change? They want to make the change, and the patron just doesn't say no. Otherwise, there would probably many more clerics who would know what they could become.
to become an elemental does not require the psionic enchantments..... the ability to cast psionic enchantments is the result of starting the transformation. (not metamorphosis but transformation, this was very specific in dragon kings) It appears the control of psionics is needed more to allow the body to be able to withstand the transformation rather than anything else.Yet they still grant spells. If it isn't alive, then the Templar could still examine the link enough to realize that there is something there. Enough examination and they might even discover the metaphysical fossil of the elemental votrex.
The energy comes from the SK's, but through the remains of the vortex. You said that Templar's gain their spells from stolen energy. One that has reached the level of casting psionic enhancements probably has enough power to start stealing it from other places.
Athasian magic is all about taking the power from somewhere else.
Again, this gives a good reason for such a templar to becomes something like a Ur-Priest ..... but doing so is dividing them away from being a templar not encouraging it.The SK's keep pet defilers, full knowing that they could one day become Dragons in their own right. They just watch them closely. The city states couldn't work without the Templars, and more than a few SK's use the fact that they grant spells to convince their subjects that they are gods. If they don't know that Templars can become AB, then they don't know what they're watching for. If they ever found out, they could wipe out all templars and plunge their city-state into ruin, stop granting spells and lose their claim at divinity, and show a weakness or moment of doubt to their people, or they could treat Templar's like their pet defilers and watch them for signs of rising in power.
All the fluff states the SK's are watching their pet defilers for this though..... and all the fluff and rules from 2ed go against the idea of templar advanced beings.I feel that I've explained myself well enough above to show how it could work in the official setting. Athasian magic always comes from something else. An Advanced Being who has spent that much time stealing power could probably find a way to change themselves into a being that can naturally steal it.
And I have shown above why a Templar would not be able to become an advanced being but your line of logic would lead to something along the lines of an Ur-Priest that could do something like what you are wanting in terms of an advanced being....... it just would no longer be a templar when they did this.If no SK would allow their Templars to reach that level of power, the player should be warned that their character has a built in expiery date when they take a level in the class. If the SK's are willing to employ defilers know what they could become, then they wouldn't dump their Templar's because of what could happen. Yes, the Templar would be hunted, probably more than an Avangion, but that is the fate of all Advanced Beings. Unlike the Elements and Spirits of the Land, Sorcerer-Kings have very mortal concerns to take up their time. They aren't omnicient, and things can slip past them. Once that first step has been taken, it's too late and the hunt is on.
EVERY templar already knows he has an expiration date on their head..... as soon as they tick off their SK, or become too much of a bother..... the SK will cut off their power if not their head. And don't try and tell me a SK could not cut one of their templars off from the magic...... as that goes against everything in darksun on templars. The SK chooses who they grant power too. What you can grant you can take away.
And yes they keep defilers..... and kill them (or transform them to undead in Borys case) when they get too powerful..... just like they do their templars.Also, I never claimed that they became Elemental Vorticies, I said that they became similar to them. They wouldn't be drawn to Sorcerer-Kings any more than an Athasian Dragon is drawn to tying up princesses and sitting on gold. I like Terminus Vortexa's cephalopod idea, but they would be independent creatures. They would become something like an Ur-priest and a Spellthief, mechanics wise.
Magic on Athas comes from stolen energy. Why couldn't a 30-40th level character figure out how to make that connection with other divine beings and force the power from them?
Again what you are talking about is a templar (or far more likely an ex-templar) discovering how to become and Ur-Priest and then becoming a new form of advanced being...... not a templar becoming an advanced being.
Um first off even in the books the SK's were big on killing their high templars when they got too powerful. And there is no SK that would not be watching their high ranking templars..... after all they know better than anyone that power corrupts.
And a character playing a Templar is aware of this, but he should be able to maneuvor enough that his SK won't slaughter him the moment he hits epic level.
Actually by every version of the rules EVER put out templars could NOT cast psionic enchantments.
Ah, but they must still be extremely powerful psions and spellcasters to be able to make the change.
And personnally I think it goes against everything in the setting to allow them to. They are granted their power by their SK.... just like druids and clerics are granted their power. Note the advanced being forms for druids and clerics are granted to their followers..... not attained through personal power.
But the advanced being forms of Preservers and Defilers are gained through personal power, and the Sorcerer-Kings are not elemental spirits. The main question is... do Templars gain access to higher level spells because they have shown their loyalty and ability to serve their SK, or are they developing spell casting skills? Secular Authority suggests that it is through proving their ability. When you use the SK's, do they question every power drain by certain Templars, or do they allow it because he has proven worthy enough for that much power?
Note also templars choose their known spells from the templar list...... ie the SK limits what kind of magics their templars know how to use.
Epic level spells are researched individually. The king will be able to find out what the spell can do, but as I said, the ritual could involve the slow drain of power over time.
Same thing happens to a fighter or a rogue who starts finding out about the Advanced Beings...... they see what other people can become.
Except that it has been established that making the transformation requires high magical skill (arcane or divine) and high psionic skill. Templars with the psionic power qualify for both. A fighter or rogue has neither.
Also note at least Lynn Abbey's books several templars learned to become Druids...... they have the option to forge a link to another divine source. (this could be easily done with a prestige class for ex templars)
Or, by multiclassing into druid, as the third edition allows.
again, per every source templars cannot cast psionic enchantments in 2ed or in the latest edition.
Can you how me where the definitive rules for 3.5e epic levels have been posted? I haven't seen them yet.
If psionic enchantments are for advanced beings, there is still a ritual to being the transformation. Even if they couldn't cast them in 2e, they could do it here if they could become advanced beings.
3e allows any race to take any class. That's a far cry from the racial limits of 2e. Saying that it didn't work in the second edition is no longer a completely viable answer. There was also a time when you couldn't cast arcane spells without draining energy from the plant life around you. That changed too.
(note so far in the epic bureau we have been having the psionic enchantments be only aquired by taking levels in the advanced being PrC's)
If you can't cast psionic enchantments until you are an advanced being, than the necessary spells to begin the change must not be psionic enchantments. As long as the Templar meets requirements similar to those of other ABs, then he should be able to get into the class.
On Epic spells, IMHO, they need to follow the same rules as normal spells for templars.... templars only have access to those divine spells the SK's allow them.
Once again, divine spells are researched independantly of your god. A Templar could figure out a method of getting the extra power overtime, storing it, and making the change when he was ready.
As I mentioned above, the power could be drawn slowly over time, similar to the time and effort an Avangion or Dragon invests in carving out their crystal "tomb" or gathering the sacrifices. If done wisely (and what Templar who has reached that level of power doesn't know how to be subtle and crafty) he could reach the first step fairly unnoticed. And when he hits that level, he prepares to run, just like anyone else that hits AB level.[/QUOTE}
But again that is not how divine casters transform...... that is how Arcane casters transform...... there is a huge difference
And connection from a sorcerer-king and his templar is quite different from a cleric and his elemental patron. The Sorcerer-King is not a divine being and has no idea how he grants this power. He doesn't notice the moment a Templar breaks faith or works against his interests, he needs to find it out for himself. He isn't omnicient.
Magic on Athas works by taking energy and manipulating it. A Templar with that level of power and guile shouldn't have that much difficulty figuring out how to get the energy and maniplulate it in a different way than was intended.This would be a good example for allowing Ur-Priest into Athas, which could possibly make a way for someone to become some other form of being (possibly on the level of an advanced being) BUT they would no longer be a templar once they started this and it would not be a templar advanced being but more of a Ur-Priest advanced being...... big difference.
Templars leech power from their Sorcerer-Kings, magical, political and social power. One that wants to make the jump to an advanced being desires more power than his lord can grant. He wants more power than even his sorcerer-king has. Not every templar will want to take that path, but it fits with the sterotype of a good number of templars. If Tithian had been given a similar chance, he would have taken it. The resulting advanced being is the ultimate power leech, and signifies their ultimate desire for power. They no longer need to worship anything for their magic, and are able to steal power from those around them. Yes, it is like an Ur-Priest in mechanics, but it also fits quite well with the more power hungry templars out there.per the rules they do...... templars have a very limited spell list to choose from and they have spells they are required to take. So while the SK may not know what you are casting at an exact minute (depending on DM) they do know what you are capable of casting.
Do you cast these spells because you've memorized the motions in your training and get your lord to send you the power to manipulate, or can your lord grant only certain spells. There are arguements either way, but I would assume that the exact spell casting is memorized in training, and the assigned spells are ones that the Sorcerer-Kings require their Templars to learn. The limit is how much the mind can hold at once before the motions blur in memory. With enough knowledge, the Templar should be able to research new spells, just like other divine casters. If he can do that, he can figure out a Advanced Being transformation.to become an elemental does not require the psionic enchantments..... the ability to cast psionic enchantments is the result of starting the transformation. (not metamorphosis but transformation, this was very specific in dragon kings) It appears the control of psionics is needed more to allow the body to be able to withstand the transformation rather than anything else.
A High level Templar/Psion could initiate the process and survive it. Its all about getting the energy and manipulating it properly. This goes back up to where I talk about the nature of Templar's and their spells known list.Again, this gives a good reason for such a templar to becomes sometg like a Ur-Priest ..... but doing so is dividing them away from being a templar not encouraging it.
As I said above, taking the level in Advanced Being shows a wish to become more than a servant. I think that works fairly well for a number of templars.All the fluff states the SK's are watching their pet defilers for this though..... and all the fluff and rules from 2ed go against the idea of templar advanced beings.
If you play a pet defiler, the DM should just look at you and say, "You've hit 20th level, the king kills you in your sleep". He should have a chance to escape, fight back, do something. Same with a Templar.
As for 2e, justify a dwarven preserver or halfling defiler, or clerics casting healing spells above 3rd level. Then we'll talk.And I have shown above why a Templar would not be able to become an advanced being but your line of logic would lead to something along the lines of an Ur-Priest that could do something like what you are wanting in terms of an advanced being....... it just would no longer be a templar when they did this.
Answered above.EVERY templar already knows he has an expiration date on their head..... as soon as they tick off their SK, or become too much of a bother..... the SK will cut off their power if not their head. And don't try and tell me a SK could not cut one of their templars off from the magic...... as that goes against everything in darksun on templars. The SK chooses who they grant power too. What you can grant you can take away.
Answered above a few times.
If you can tell me where Sorcerer-Kings know what all their templars are doing at any moment (except for Rise and Fall... Which has dragon transformations progressing through the granting of spells), or gives an exact and concrete description of how Sorcerer-Kings grant their spells through the Elemental Vorticies, then I'll conceed that there is no way that a Templar could do the job. As it stands, I can find justification fairly easily.And yes they keep defilers..... and kill them (or transform them to undead in Borys case) when they get too powerful..... just like they do their templars.
Answered above.Again what you are talking about is a templar (or far more likely an ex-templar) discovering how to become and Ur-Priest and then becoming a new form of advanced being...... not a templar becoming an advanced being.
Answered above.
On the topic of Templars being able to have an epiphany and trade classes. I don't see anyone but the para-elementals accepting that kind of trade in. Last time I checked, Para-elemental clerics couldn't cast the spells high enough to become advanced beings. If they can in the new edition, then that's another shot against the "Templars couldn't do it before" arguement.
Never said that. They turn into something that can tap into other things and draw their power, like an Ur-priest and a Spellthief. Using the power of others for their own gain. Its what they have been doing with the sorcerer-kings for years.
Maybe they become something like a landbased Silt Horror, with tendrils that can drain the stored spells out of a helpless caster and from the Spirit of the Lands itself. A druid doesn't become useless when he fuses with the Spirit, why would a Templar who makes his transformation?
You're right I said it. It is the logical conclusion from following the pattern. As for the Ur-Priest/Spellthief comparison, wow! you are so far off it isn't even funny. Ur-Priests and Spellthiefs steal their power templars do not. Socerer-Kings grant templars their power upon request and have the ability to take their power away from them anytime they want. It is the SK that has a connection to the elemental vortex, not the templar.
Besides think about it this way: If I was a priest, would I want to kill my god?
If you answered yes: you are insane
, your god is the source of all your power, kill him/her would only cause you to lose your power.I understand what you're saying, but what happens when, in game, the player's do find out about advanced beings and begin to research them, in character. Perhaps they discover the Avangion transformation process, discover more about Boyrs, and/or meet a Spirit of the Land that was once a druid. At epic levels, this becomes more and more likely. If the Templar really beings to look into it, it really isn't fair to penalize the player for picking the wrong class at first level.
Like Fighter and Thief? They don't seem to be able to become an advanced anything...
You're right I said it. It is the logical conclusion from following the pattern. As for the Ur-Priest/Spellthief comparison, wow! you are so far off it isn't even funny. Ur-Priests and Spellthiefs steal their power templars do not. Socerer-Kings grant templars their power upon request and have the ability to take their power away from them anytime they want. It is the SK that has a connection to the elemental vortex, not the templar.
Besides think about it this way: If I was a priest, would I want to kill my god?
If you answered yes: you are insane
Sorcerer-kings are not gods, and you'd be way off in suggesting that they are, or are similar to the elemental patrons in their understanding or abilities. In my above post, I pointed out how it seems that SK's grant unmanipulated energy to their Templars. Also, they don't know the instant a Templar disobeys them, such as with Tithian in the Verdant Passage. Some may be seen as gods by their subjects and low level Templars, but most of the Templars realize that they are mortal. Some Templars aren't going to be happy with serving someone they realize is mortal, especially when they realize they can become just as powerful.
Templars learn to tap into their sorcerer king. With the maliable nature of power sources in Athas, why couldn't an extremely powerful Templar figure out how to force a similar connection with other sources to get at the energy. I mentioned all of this in an above post.
I mentioned Ur-priests and Spellthieves because their advanced being abilities would mimic the abilities of these classes.
Like Fighter and Thief? They don't seem to be able to become an advanced anything...
Same thing happens to a fighter or a rogue who starts finding out about the Advanced Beings...... they see what other people can become.Except that it has been established that making the transformation requires high magical skill (arcane or divine) and high psionic skill. Templars with the psionic power qualify for both. A fighter or rogue has neither
Take a look above, Korvar. I dealt with that.
The only way for the Templar to advance further than the Sorcerer-King wants is to somehow tap into the power of the Elemental Vortex. However, they are unlikely to be able to tap in to it directly - even the Sorcerer Kings can't, but instead have to pass it to other beings.
So if a Templar can learn to do this - he probably wouldn't gain power himself, but would be able to create his own "Templars"...
The Psionic powers would have to be as much to do with stealth and hiding actions from the SK as they would be about manipulating power - unlike a "normal" Advanced Being, the Templar would have to conduct his research and advancement right under the nose of the one being who would most want to destroy them if they were found out. A being who would know the Templar very well. And that's not counting the other Templars who would love to be able to get credit from their master by turning in such a "traitor"...
...however, one does wonder about the abandonded Vorteces left by the dead Sorcerer-Kings. Although the Vorteces died long ago, the "funnel" from the Elemental planes remains - and possibly somehow survived the death of the Sorcerer King in question. Perhaps our enterprising Templar could search for one of those, instead of stealing from his own master. Getting permission for a long absence from their own city could prove interesting, though.
Thoughts:
The only way for the Templar to advance further than the Sorcerer-King wants is to somehow tap into the power of the Elemental Vortex. However, they are unlikely to be able to tap in to it directly - even the Sorcerer Kings can't, but instead have to pass it to other beings.
Well, it probably wouldn't work by tapping directly into the vortex, but rather by finding a way to force connections onto being like Spirits of the Land and elemental sources.
So if a Templar can learn to do this - he probably wouldn't gain power himself, but would be able to create his own "Templars"...
That's a quest that any advanced being might want to try.
The Psionic powers would have to be as much to do with stealth and hiding actions from the SK as they would be about manipulating power - unlike a "normal" Advanced Being, the Templar would have to conduct his research and advancement right under the nose of the one being who would most want to destroy them if they were found out. A being who would know the Templar very well. And that's not counting the other Templars who would love to be able to get credit from their master by turning in such a "traitor"...
I agree that it would be very difficult, but a Templar able to become that powerful would be adept at weaving through the plots and intrigues of the templarate. He would have abilities to have a chance of hiding under the Sorcerer-King's nose and would have the patiences to work on it and not attract attention.
I would rather have the option there than say no because getting there would be require a lot of hard work and some really difficult challenges. That goes part in parcel with becoming an advanced being.
Finally, Sorcerer-kings aren't omnicient, so a properly crafty Templar could theoretically do the job. Just as even a defiler under the Sorcerer-king possibly could do it.
...however, one does wonder about the abandonded Vorteces left by the dead Sorcerer-Kings. Although the Vorteces died long ago, the "funnel" from the Elemental planes remains - and possibly somehow survived the death of the Sorcerer King in question. Perhaps our enterprising Templar could search for one of those, instead of stealing from his own master. Getting permission for a long absence from their own city could prove interesting, though.
Sure, but that would be a quest for any advanced being.
Well, it probably wouldn't work by tapping directly into the vortex, but rather by finding a way to force connections onto being like Spirits of the Land and elemental sources.
Again, now we're looking at someone trying to change what kind of Priest he is and then try to become and Advanced Being.
I agree that it would be very difficult, but a Templar able to become that powerful would be adept at weaving through the plots and intrigues of the templarate. He would have abilities to have a chance of hiding under the Sorcerer-King's nose and would have the patiences to work on it and not attract attention.
I would rather have the option there than say no because getting there would be require a lot of hard work and some really difficult challenges. That goes part in parcel with becoming an advanced being.
Finally, Sorcerer-kings aren't omnicient, so a properly crafty Templar could theoretically do the job. Just as even a defiler under the Sorcerer-king possibly could do it.
True. But think how much more experience the SK's have at dealing with the plots and intrigues of their templarate? They have thousands of years head start on any Templar.
Again, this wouldn't make it impossible. But it would be very, very hard.
So if a Templar can learn to do this - he probably wouldn't gain power himself, but would be able to create his own "Templars"...
Sure, but that would be a quest for any advanced being.
I'm suggesting that a Templar AB would only be able to empower others, not themselves. And "compete" with the other AB's that way. I think that would be a very interesting challenge, if the mechanics can be worked out. And I love the irony of the ultimately ambitious Templar trying to find the source of ultimate power - and getting it, only to discover they can only give it to others!
And a character playing a Templar is aware of this, but he should be able to maneuvor enough that his SK won't slaughter him the moment he hits epic level.
If you play a pet defiler, the DM should just look at you and say, "You've hit 20th level, the king kills you in your sleep". He should have a chance to escape, fight back, do something. Same with a Templar.
And that is exactly how it is in the templarates...... You have a chance of survival but if you start stealing from the SK your life expectancy just hit the commode. And that is exactly what you are talking about.
Except that it has been established that making the transformation requires high magical skill (arcane or divine) and high psionic skill. Templars with the psionic power qualify for both. A fighter or rogue has neither.
Ah, but they must still be extremely powerful psions and spellcasters to be able to make the change.
Actually it is established that you need high level psionics and high levels of specific types of magic to become an advanced being....and while it has been stated that elementalclerics with enough psionic energy and druids with enough psionic might can be transformed. The fluff and rules have always been very specific in that templars are limited in this regard and cannot.
Epic level spells are researched individually. The king will be able to find out what the spell can do, but as I said, the ritual could involve the slow drain of power over time.
Once again, divine spells are researched independantly of your god. A Templar could figure out a method of getting the extra power overtime, storing it, and making the change when he was ready.
Sure you can research it all you want...... BUT two major things..... one the divine transformation have never been spells, they are the equivilent of a prestige class that is granted to the characters, and I know this is how I will be recommending they are in 3.5 when we are working on them in the epic bureau. As we are supposed to be updating the rules for 3.5 not rewriting the world to add our personal ideas in athas.org.
Can you how me where the definitive rules for 3.5e epic levels have been posted? I haven't seen them yet.
Nope as we in the Epic bureau (like myself and xlor who have been responding to you on this) have not released the rules and are still working on them.
If psionic enchantments are for advanced beings, there is still a ritual to being the transformation. Even if they couldn't cast them in 2e, they could do it here if they could become advanced beings.
3e allows any race to take any class. That's a far cry from the racial limits of 2e. Saying that it didn't work in the second edition is no longer a completely viable answer. There was also a time when you couldn't cast arcane spells without draining energy from the plant life around you. That changed too.
my refferences to 2ed is refferencing the fact that we are supposed to be updating the rules not totally rewriting the fluff. The no level requirements were required by WOTC on the rules. And again, DIVINE advanced beings do NOT cast a spell to transform, that is only arcane advanced beings that do that.
Magic on Athas works by taking energy and manipulating it. A Templar with that level of power and guile shouldn't have that much difficulty figuring out how to get the energy and maniplulate it in a different way than was intended.
Actually only arcane magic in Athas has you take energy and manipulate it...... divine magic manipulates the energy you are GRANTED. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
If you can't cast psionic enchantments until you are an advanced being, than the necessary spells to begin the change must not be psionic enchantments. As long as the Templar meets requirements similar to those of other ABs, then he should be able to get into the class.
If there was an advanced being class that teh templar met all the requirements for they could take one..... BUT there is nothing in Darksun that even hints at that even being an option. Again divine advanced beings are more on the lines of just a PrC than a spell PrC combo like the Avangions and Dragons.
And connection from a sorcerer-king and his templar is quite different from a cleric and his elemental patron. The Sorcerer-King is not a divine being and has no idea how he grants this power. He doesn't notice the moment a Templar breaks faith or works against his interests, he needs to find it out for himself. He isn't omnicient.
Never said he was omnipotent, and I agree the conneciton is different.
But the advanced being forms of Preservers and Defilers are gained through personal power, and the Sorcerer-Kings are not elemental spirits. The main question is... do Templars gain access to higher level spells because they have shown their loyalty and ability to serve their SK, or are they developing spell casting skills? Secular Authority suggests that it is through proving their ability. When you use the SK's, do they question every power drain by certain Templars, or do they allow it because he has proven worthy enough for that much power?
Templars leech power from their Sorcerer-Kings, magical, political and social power. One that wants to make the jump to an advanced being desires more power than his lord can grant. He wants more power than even his sorcerer-king has. Not every templar will want to take that path, but it fits with the sterotype of a good number of templars. If Tithian had been given a similar chance, he would have taken it. The resulting advanced being is the ultimate power leech, and signifies their ultimate desire for power. They no longer need to worship anything for their magic, and are able to steal power from those around them. Yes, it is like an Ur-Priest in mechanics, but it also fits quite well with the more power hungry templars out there.
Do you cast these spells because you've memorized the motions in your training and get your lord to send you the power to manipulate, or can your lord grant only certain spells. There are arguements either way, but I would assume that the exact spell casting is memorized in training, and the assigned spells are ones that the Sorcerer-Kings require their Templars to learn. The limit is how much the mind can hold at once before the motions blur in memory. With enough knowledge, the Templar should be able to research new spells, just like other divine casters. If he can do that, he can figure out a Advanced Being transformation.
This is purely conjecture on your part. And there are some serious flaws in your argument here.
First: Templars do NOT leech power from the SK in any way.... they are granted it..... that is a extremely important difference..... in all of the novels and in all of the fluff, the templars request the power from the SK and then use it. There is a HUGE difference between that and them taking what they want.
Second: Comparing their spellcasting and secular authority to prove your point is inherently flawed..... as someone who was kicked out of the bureau could fake their way through secular authority with someone who did not know they were out of favor..... it is just social skills and standing after all..... however you are not going to "bluff" your way into getting granted spells.
Third: yes there would be templars wanting to gain power beyond what they are granted..... in the fluff and novels these were the ones studying the way and defiler magic in addition to their templar skills.....And as I said this would be a great idea for allowing an Athasian Ur-priest into a campaign.
Fourth: Which way they are able to gain new spells is not that important in this discussion as DIVINE advanced beings do not transform through a spell...... it is more like a PrC and it is a granted state per the fluff and 2nd edition. (and as most of the fluff pertaining to this was from 2ed rulebooks that is kind of important)
A High level Templar/Psion could initiate the process and survive it. Its all about getting the energy and manipulating it properly. This goes back up to where I talk about the nature of Templar's and their spells known list.
Again divine advanced beings are not created through a spell. Having the levels in psionics means he could survive the transformation ..... but not having the levels in a divine class that grants it means he would not be granted the chance to transform in the first place.
As I said above, taking the level in Advanced Being shows a wish to become more than a servant. I think that works fairly well for a number of templars.
but that is the point Templars are broken into the mold of a servant to the SK's. And those who want something more must look elsewhere..... what you are describing is the idea behind an athasian Ur-Priest..... someone who steals divine power to make themselves more powerful.
If you can tell me where Sorcerer-Kings know what all their templars are doing at any moment (except for Rise and Fall... Which has dragon transformations progressing through the granting of spells), or gives an exact and concrete description of how Sorcerer-Kings grant their spells through the Elemental Vorticies, then I'll conceed that there is no way that a Templar could do the job. As it stands, I can find justification fairly easily.
As almost the only novels that describe in detail the mentality of and thought proccess of SK' and their templars, was the ones from the Chronicals of Athas by Lynn Abbey..... which you seem to want to discount because she was not given full assistance on fluff of dark sun by TSR's novel department..... then you have really removed every source save a few short stories that even deal with templars.
And again I did not claim they knew all the templars are doing, in fact I do not believe they do...... but as I have shown above your fundamental basis for templars leaching the power is flawed..... which breaks the idea that you are presenting.
However as I said a ex templar stealing from a different SK or spirit of the land is well within the possibilities...... and is along the lines of a Ur-Priest..... the thing is that means they are no longer progressing as a templar however but they are progressing in their new class.
Or, by multiclassing into druid, as the third edition allows.
On the topic of Templars being able to have an epiphany and trade classes. I don't see anyone but the para-elementals accepting that kind of trade in. Last time I checked, Para-elemental clerics couldn't cast the spells high enough to become advanced beings. If they can in the new edition, then that's another shot against the "Templars couldn't do it before" arguement.
Actually the only book, that I remember offhand, that talked about templars switching over to using another source was Lynn Abbey's novels about Pavek the soon to be ex templar of Hammanu. In which Pavek learns to use the power granted by spirits of the land to become a druid..... not a para elemental cleric.
And a character playing a Templar is aware of this, but he should be able to maneuvor enough that his SK won't slaughter him the moment he hits epic level.
Once again, you are under the mistaken impression that casting an epic spell of that magnitude would go unnoticed. You are also siognificantly blurring the lines between Arcane and Divine magic.
Ah, but they must still be extremely powerful psions and spellcasters to be able to make the change.
They must be extremely powerful psionic characters *and* SPECIFIC SPELLCASTERS.
But the advanced being forms of Preservers and Defilers are gained through personal power, and the Sorcerer-Kings are not elemental spirits. The main question is... do Templars gain access to higher level spells because they have shown their loyalty and ability to serve their SK, or are they developing spell casting skills? Secular Authority suggests that it is through proving their ability. When you use the SK's, do they question every power drain by certain Templars, or do they allow it because he has proven worthy enough for that much power?
The Advanced Being forms of Arcane Spellcasters from Preservers & Defilers (which is a book focused on, gasp Preservers & Defilers - IE: Arcane Spellcasters) are done through spell cycles and personal power. the ones in Earth, Air, Fire & Water the book for Clerics and Druids, however, there is no spells. There is only the development into the Advanced Being. And to be able to start that, the Cleric's patron element, or the Druid's Spirit of the Land, provides the opportunity to work down that path. The individual does have to develop it like another class, but they don't research Epic Spells to cast and become these beings.
Epic level spells are researched individually. The king will be able to find out what the spell can do, but as I said, the ritual could involve the slow drain of power over time.
And the second a Templar casts and Epic Spell - bam, he's got the complete attention of his Sorcerer-Monarch, and just ended up on the dinner list.
Except that it has been established that making the transformation requires high magical skill (arcane or divine) and high psionic skill. Templars with the psionic power qualify for both. A fighter or rogue has neither.
Ahh, but it also has been defined that for Arcane spellcasters, one must [i]research, develop and cast Epic Spells[/u]. For Divine spellcasters, one must be granted the opportunity by the source of their power. By your own statements agreeing with me - the source of the Templar's power, the Vortex, is dead. Kinda hard to get that request granted. Now, the other option is that the SM themself would grant that power - and like I said, that won't really turn out so well.
Or, by multiclassing into druid, as the third edition allows.
True
Can you how me where the definitive rules for 3.5e epic levels have been posted? I haven't seen them yet.
Being worked on as we speak. Considering you are arguing with two of the members of the Epic Bureau at Athas.org, maybe, just maybe we might know some details about what is being worked on, that we are basing our judgement calls upon.
If psionic enchantments are for advanced beings, there is still a ritual to being the transformation. Even if they couldn't cast them in 2e, they could do it here if they could become advanced beings.
For Arcane spellcasters, there is an Epic Spell to begin the transformation. For Divine spellcasters, their source of power grants the beginning of the transformation (real simple here: special requirement for the PrC known as "Must have been granted the ability to begin this process from patron element/spirit of the land"). Your reasoning is seriously flawed here, and you are blurring the lines between Divine and Arcane spellcasters again.
3e allows any race to take any class. That's a far cry from the racial limits of 2e. Saying that it didn't work in the second edition is no longer a completely viable answer. There was also a time when you couldn't cast arcane spells without draining energy from the plant life around you. That changed too.
Incorrect. 3/3.5E allows any race to take any base class. Prestige Classes can restrict based on Race (Arcane Archer, for instance). Arcane magic still, for Dark Sun, requires you to drain energy from the plant life around you. I have no idea where you got the impression that had changed. I think even Dim Sun provides for that rule.
If you can't cast psionic enchantments until you are an advanced being, than the necessary spells to begin the change must not be psionic enchantments. As long as the Templar meets requirements similar to those of other ABs, then he should be able to get into the class.
There is only necessary spells for the transformation for, and I'll say it again hoping you can grasp the concept, Arcane Spellcasters. So that does not apply to Divine spellcasters, and your argument is irrelevant at this point.
Once again, divine spells are researched independantly of your god. A Templar could figure out a method of getting the extra power overtime, storing it, and making the change when he was ready.
But there's no Epic Spell for Divine Metamorphoses.
And connection from a sorcerer-king and his templar is quite different from a cleric and his elemental patron. The Sorcerer-King is not a divine being and has no idea how he grants this power. He doesn't notice the moment a Templar breaks faith or works against his interests, he needs to find it out for himself. He isn't omnicient.
Actually, everything in the books states the complete opposite of what you said here. Now you are reaching.
Magic on Athas works by taking energy and manipulating it. A Templar with that level of power and guile shouldn't have that much difficulty figuring out how to get the energy and maniplulate it in a different way than was intended.
Arcane magic on Athas works by taking energy. Divine magic on Athas works by being granted that energy.
Templars leech power from their Sorcerer-Kings, magical, political and social power. One that wants to make the jump to an advanced being desires more power than his lord can grant. He wants more power than even his sorcerer-king has. Not every templar will want to take that path, but it fits with the sterotype of a good number of templars. If Tithian had been given a similar chance, he would have taken it. The resulting advanced being is the ultimate power leech, and signifies their ultimate desire for power. They no longer need to worship anything for their magic, and are able to steal power from those around them. Yes, it is like an Ur-Priest in mechanics, but it also fits quite well with the more power hungry templars out there.
Templars do not leech the power from their Sorcerer-Monarch. They are granted the power, to handle those things the SM would rather not handle themself, and the SM can easily stop the flow of magical power to that Templar, rendering them spell-less.
Do you cast these spells because you've memorized the motions in your training and get your lord to send you the power to manipulate, or can your lord grant only certain spells. There are arguements either way, but I would assume that the exact spell casting is memorized in training, and the assigned spells are ones that the Sorcerer-Kings require their Templars to learn. The limit is how much the mind can hold at once before the motions blur in memory. With enough knowledge, the Templar should be able to research new spells, just like other divine casters. If he can do that, he can figure out a Advanced Being transformation.
Templars are spontaneous spellcasters. They have a set list of spells available to them, which they can draw upon. They request the power from their Monarch for the day, and are granted it,. to use in whichever spell they have in their repertoire for the requisite level. Now you are bringing even more irrelevant arguments that do nothing to support your case.
A High level Templar/Psion could initiate the process and survive it. Its all about getting the energy and manipulating it properly. This goes back up to where I talk about the nature of Templar's and their spells known list.
They can't exactly store the energy to use it at a later date. Sorry, but I don't think there's any rule for 3.5e that allows for any spellcaster to use the spell levels they haven't used the day before, to be used the next day on top of the spells they are granted for each day. There's no "rollover" spells. And once again, Templars are Divine spellcasters, and as such, would not have an Epic Spell to cast in order to become an Advanced Being. Period.
As I said above, taking the level in Advanced Being shows a wish to become more than a servant. I think that works fairly well for a number of templars.
And it's just not possible. How many different ways do you need it written out for you?
If you play a pet defiler, the DM should just look at you and say, "You've hit 20th level, the king kills you in your sleep". He should have a chance to escape, fight back, do something. Same with a Templar.
Ahh, but a pet Defiler could potentially escape to another City-State, or some area distant, and away from their master. And they would still retain their power. Templars don't have that option. So, your argument is irrelevant.
As for 2e, justify a dwarven preserver or halfling defiler, or clerics casting healing spells above 3rd level. Then we'll talk.
Irrelevant statement not worthy of a real comment.
If you can tell me where Sorcerer-Kings know what all their templars are doing at any moment (except for Rise and Fall... Which has dragon transformations progressing through the granting of spells), or gives an exact and concrete description of how Sorcerer-Kings grant their spells through the Elemental Vorticies, then I'll conceed that there is no way that a Templar could do the job. As it stands, I can find justification fairly easily.
Ok, once again, in small words this time. [b]The Sorcerer-Monarch does not need to know what their templars are doing at any moment.[b] The Sorcerer-Monarch just is aware of the energy each Templar is using, as that is what the Templars take from them - even if it's through the Vortex, the Sorcerer-Monarch does get to know how much they are taking. An individual taking more energy than others, would be quite a bit more obvious. It would be like seeing a TV full of static, and in one spot, you have a real bright light appear, standing out from the rest. That would be a Templar casting an Epic Spell. Even amidst the static, that bright light would ring out loud and clear to the SM.
On the topic of Templars being able to have an epiphany and trade classes. I don't see anyone but the para-elementals accepting that kind of trade in. Last time I checked, Para-elemental clerics couldn't cast the spells high enough to become advanced beings. If they can in the new edition, then that's another shot against the "Templars couldn't do it before" arguement.
Actually, you're incorrect on that. Paraelemental clerics can become Para-Elemental Advanced Beings. You are mixing up 2e rules with already-established 3/3.5e rules. Welcome to two years ago.
Again, now we're looking at someone trying to change what kind of Priest he is and then try to become and Advanced Being.
What kind of priest is a Templar? They're beaurocrats. Yes, they serve and worship their sorcerer-king, but they have their own desires for power. As they get higher in level, they're going to realize that their sorcerer-king is not a real god, especially when they look at their fellows and what they are capable with getting away with. They are able to break the kings laws (taking bribes to ignore a law and let person x in) or direct edicts and still keep their powers. Otherwise, the sorcerer-king would have a list of people to purge each day, or test them every shift by asking them to call upon a spell. A Templar can be corrupt or break laws. He just needs to know how to keep it quiet.
I discuss my views on Templars and their magic below, and that deals with what kind of priest they are.
True. But think how much more experience the SK's have at dealing with the plots and intrigues of their templarate? They have thousands of years head start on any Templar.
Again, this wouldn't make it impossible. But it would be very, very hard.
Tithian was able to use his office to hold back the search for Sadira and Agis, in direct opposition to Kalak's orders. Even if he was distracted with the near completion of his Ziggurat, word would have come back to him somehow. The other sorcerer-kings have entire cities to run and centuries old plots coming into fruition. They don't have time to micromanage everything personally, and its quite possible to fool most other spies he has if you're canny enough.
Becoming an advanced being should be hard, especially near the Sorcerer-Kings. But the fact that it is hard, or even almost impossible doesn't mean that there isn't a form waiting for them to find.
I'm suggesting that a Templar AB would only be able to empower others, not themselves. And "compete" with the other AB's that way. I think that would be a very interesting challenge, if the mechanics can be worked out. And I love the irony of the ultimately ambitious Templar trying to find the source of ultimate power - and getting it, only to discover they can only give it to others!
Actually, that involves fleshing out exactly how Templars are given their spells.
A wizard memorizes the exact process for casting the spell, draws the energy and manipulates it to the proper form. A druid and cleric prays for the spell, and their patron grants it to them, already manipulated, ready to be called upon.
Sorcerer-Kings are not omnicient gods. They don't know everything that goes on, and it is possible to trick them. If they knew everything, then there would be no corruption among the templarate. I doubt that Hammanu believes his laws are mere suggestions that can be bent for small amounts of coin or other offers that his servants might get. If they're caught, they're punished, but he obviously doesn't catch everyone, because the practise would have died out centuries ago if he did. A templar who reaches 30+ levels know how to stay under the radar in their actions better than most. They can fail, but unless the king has reason to spend his own time spying on the high templar, it will be possible to get through.
No one is sure how Templar magic works, not even the Sorcerer-Kings. Because of the fused vorticies, they are able to grant their templars elemental spells. That much is certain. But they aren't omnicient gods. They have hundreds, if not thousands, of templars, and even an entity as powerful as them can't be expected to take the time to find the correct healing spell every time one of their poop shovelers feels the need to cure light wounds. The king isn't able to grant all the spells that a cleric could get, which suggests something I deal with further down.
It is more likely that the Sorcerer-King has forged a link between the Templar's "holy symbol" and himself. The symbol acts as a focus, like a cerulian's blue lense or a leech's obsidian ball, and drawing on power through the elemental vortex. The King feels the draw, can feel the the on the end and knows if the guy is in the good books. If the templar isn't in trouble with him and is approved for the amount of power he is trying to draw, the Sorcerer-king allows it to go through.
Templars get a small number of spells know. As mentioned above, the sorcerer-kings aren't sure how they grant their spells, and keep their templars to a small list of possibilities to requisition. It would make more sense, and seems to be supported by the 3e mechanics, if the Templar was taught during training how to shape the raw energy they draw from their patron. Templar's are required to memorize certain spells that are necessary for their duties to the king (such as hold person and such), and tare given leave to study a number of other possibilities that the Templarate makes avaliable. When they cast a spell, they recieve the raw energy and shape it when they cast their spell (whose components are hidden within calls to their king). It would also be for characters to try to find the time when all the Templars are praying for their spells, and attack when the Sorcerer-king is most distracted.
This brings up another question. If a sorcerer-king grants pre-shaped spells, and just puts a limit on which ones a Templar can request, can the Templar research a new spell, just like all of the other spellcasting classes? Does he need to go before the King and get the king to figure out how to channel it? Does the king then go through the trouble of learning how to channel the spell so that only one guy can cast it? If the Templar can research spells independantly, he would be able to learn the new forms on his own, offer them to the Templarate to teach, and not have to work side-by-side with his king to get it to work.
I guess that I've just come to see Templar casting to be like a wizard drawing off of a divine force. The sorcerer-kings are powerful, but they use Templars to micromanage their holdings. I don't think they would offer spells if they then had to micromanage exactly what spells they were granting and to how. They have other concerns.
If Templar's are the ones that shape the magic, then an advanced being templar would be one who has figured out how to draw this energy from other divine sources and even other creatures, similar to how a Dragon learns to draw energy not only from plants, but from animal life. Also, if the Templar shapes the actual power, and has reached the level where he can requisition enough of it, then he would be capable of making the first step and gaining his independance (or forcing the link between him and the king to stay open). Learning the ritual would be the main action and that is what the Templar would have to keep his king from discovering.
The sorcerer-kings never willingly allowing it is not a good enough reason to say the form does not exist. Besides, a Templar with the ability and drive who wants to step beyond his monarch (are you telling me that there are no high templars who wouldn't take the chance if given it?) might try. It is then up to the Monarch to find out and stop it.
I also don't like the idea of Sorcerer-kings slaughtering an character with a level in Templar simply because they reached power level x. It makes things too easy for epic level characters, knowing that they will never have to worry about any of the Sorcerer-kings servants being any higher than that specific level. If the king is willing to kill off all of his templars who have been loyal for that long and shown that level of ability, then he isn't going to allow mercanaries or citizens to go anywhere near that high. I just don't see most of the sorcerer-kings throwing away a useful tool without cause.
I'm probably way off on how the rest of the community views Templar magic, so perhaps someone could explain how the otherside works, where the Sorcerer-kings are aware enough of the power being drawn that they are able to shape it to specific spells and hand it out to individual Templars, but still unable to use it themselves. If they can't use it, I would think that they are also unable to shape it either.
I am going to try and combine as many of them into sections as possible my responses to you as you keep saying answered above when I was taking your issues one at a time.
And that is exactly how it is in the templarates...... You have a chance of survival but if you start stealing from the SK your life expectancy just hit the commode. And that is exactly what you are talking about.
Sk's don't know the instant you break their law. See above.
Actually it is established that you need high level psionics and high levels of specific types of magic to become an advanced being....and while it has been stated that elementalclerics with enough psionic energy and druids with enough psionic might can be transformed. The fluff and rules have always been very specific in that templars are limited in this regard and cannot.
The fluff (up until this edition) was also very clear as to which races could be wizards. That has changed, and giving Templars a chance in no way changes the feel of the setting.
Wizards take their power from the land in a raw form and shape it. Druids and clerics get their from their partons in completed forms, and change into the correct form. If a templar gains raw divine power and can shape it, then why wouldn't be be able to shape it like a wizard shapes his. There are only two types of power after all, arcane and divine. I don't seem to recall anything that say the magic of the sorcerer-king is different from that of a cleric, with the exception of the source and how they cast the actual spell.
Sure you can research it all you want...... BUT two major things..... one the divine transformation have never been spells, they are the equivilent of a prestige class that is granted to the characters, and I know this is how I will be recommending they are in 3.5 when we are working on them in the epic bureau. As we are supposed to be updating the rules for 3.5 not rewriting the world to add our personal ideas in athas.org.
I never said it should be in the official rules. If I did, perhaps you can point that out. I was asking about the idea, not trying to influence the Epic Bureau. Maybe you can point out where I said otherwise.
At the same time, was the leech found in the Defilers and Preservers book, or was that added new to this edition. I was pretty sure that magic that feed off of animal life was only avaliable through dragon magic or artifacts like Katando's Cane.
Nope as we in the Epic bureau (like myself and xlor who have been responding to you on this) have not released the rules and are still working on them.
That's what I thought. I understand that you've been working on the rules, but the majority of the people here haven't seen them, and it isn't fair to start quoting something that no one else can check, and that hasn't even been finished, approved or released.
my refferences to 2ed is refferencing the fact that we are supposed to be updating the rules not totally rewriting the fluff. The no level requirements were required by WOTC on the rules. And again, DIVINE advanced beings do NOT cast a spell to transform, that is only arcane advanced beings that do that.
Where can I find the exact description of how the Sorcerer-king passes energy to his templar. Is it listed in a released document? If it's more like a wizard, manipulating the magic when he recieves it, then the Templar could instead manipulate it into a spell, like wizards.
Actually only arcane magic in Athas has you take energy and manipulate it...... divine magic manipulates the energy you are GRANTED. There is a HUGE difference between the two.
Once again, it depends on if the sorcerer-kings have the power to reach into the well of power to be drawn (the well that they are unable to actually use themselves) and shape the spells individually before passing it onto each templar or if they simply allow the templars to draw on the power and shape it at their end. The sorcerer-kings aren't gods and would be incapable of multi-tasking on the scale that the elemental patrons or Spirits of the Land are.
If there was an advanced being class that teh templar met all the requirements for they could take one..... BUT there is nothing in Darksun that even hints at that even being an option. Again divine advanced beings are more on the lines of just a PrC than a spell PrC combo like the Avangions and Dragons.
There was nothing in the inital Dark Sun that hinted at divine Advanced Beings. They were added to the line, and have gained acceptance. There was nothing in the line about gaining magic through the sources of shadow, or storms. It was added and accepted. Once again, I'm not trying to force the Epic Bureau to include my idea, and "rules that you can't see say no" isn't a valid arguement at this point. When they've been sanctioned and released, then they're official rules.
Never said he was omnipotent, and I agree the conneciton is different.
I mentioned my views on this above.
This is purely conjecture on your part. And there are some serious flaws in your argument here.
First: Templars do NOT leech power from the SK in any way.... they are granted it..... that is a extremely important difference..... in all of the novels and in all of the fluff, the templars request the power from the SK and then use it. There is a HUGE difference between that and them taking what they want.
Explained above.
Second: Comparing their spellcasting and secular authority to prove your point is inherently flawed..... as someone who was kicked out of the bureau could fake their way through secular authority with someone who did not know they were out of favor..... it is just social skills and standing after all..... however you are not going to "bluff" your way into getting granted spells.
Ok. Valid point.
Third: yes there would be templars wanting to gain power beyond what they are granted..... in the fluff and novels these were the ones studying the way and defiler magic in addition to their templar skills.....And as I said this would be a great idea for allowing an Athasian Ur-priest into a campaign.
If the character is able to steal raw divine magic, then there is nothing to stop him from trying to figure out a ritual to exalt himself and improve this power. I realize that divine transformations are different from arcane, but if there is no patron to guide the magic, or the caster does the actual shaping of it independantly (see above), then they could possibly figure out some form of transformation ritual similar to a wizard.
Besides, a Templar who wants to step beyond his SK is trying to surpass him. He wants to rise above him, and the Templar is actively making the choice to break off from his lord. Wizards don't have to become advanced beings, and neither do the divine casters. Neither would a templar, especially considering the sacrifice and risk they would be taking.
Fourth: Which way they are able to gain new spells is not that important in this discussion as DIVINE advanced beings do not transform through a spell...... it is more like a PrC and it is a granted state per the fluff and 2nd edition. (and as most of the fluff pertaining to this was from 2ed rulebooks that is kind of important)
Once again, mentioned above.
Again divine advanced beings are not created through a spell. Having the levels in psionics means he could survive the transformation ..... but not having the levels in a divine class that grants it means he would not be granted the chance to transform in the first place.
Above.
but that is the point Templars are broken into the mold of a servant to the SK's. And those who want something more must look elsewhere..... what you are describing is the idea behind an athasian Ur-Priest..... someone who steals divine power to make themselves more powerful.
And if one got to that level of power, and then saw that there was more, and a chance to become just as (if not more) powerful than the entity they have served for so long? Some will be content to serve, some will be afraid, and some will jump at the chance. As has been said before, most characters don't know anything about advanced beings. If they reached that level of power in templar magic and psionics and saw a chance at power they never knew before, they're going to be tempted. Besides, one that has become that powerful in templar magic isn't going to suddenly start to study both wizardy and psionics if they though that there might be a way to proceed by only studying psionics.
As almost the only novels that describe in detail the mentality of and thought proccess of SK' and their templars, was the ones from the Chronicals of Athas by Lynn Abbey..... which you seem to want to discount because she was not given full assistance on fluff of dark sun by TSR's novel department..... then you have really removed every source save a few short stories that even deal with templars.
True... but it also said that the templar's drawing power furthered the dragon transformation, something that flies completely in the face of the Elemental Vorticies and what we know about dragon transformation. That seems to be a great misunderstanding about templar magic. Maybe the Epic Bureau decided that it was a good idea and you've added that to the new rules set. Once again I can't check.
Yes, they're the only real sources dealing with that, but the scenes in question don't mesh with anything else. You can't say that the scene was dead on about the sorcerer-king knowing exactly what their templars were doing, the exact situation they were in, and able to pick and shaped the spell for them, but it was wrong that drawing the power turns them into dragons. If one piece of information involving the process is wrong, then the rest of it becomes suspect.
And again I did not claim they knew all the templars are doing, in fact I do not believe they do...... but as I have shown above your fundamental basis for templars leaching the power is flawed..... which breaks the idea that you are presenting.
Then where has the definitive process of how their spells have been granted been released. Please point me to the document.
However as I said a ex templar stealing from a different SK or spirit of the land is well within the possibilities...... and is along the lines of a Ur-Priest..... the thing is that means they are no longer progressing as a templar however but they are progressing in their new class.
When they make the break, then they have become more Ur-Priest like. Last time I check, though, none of the Divine patrons cared about the exact reason their servants worked for them. If the Templar continues going up in Templar levels to increase his skills at drawing power, he would still get his spells as long as his service was up to par. Unless the sorcerer-king went into his mind to look around.
Actually the only book, that I remember offhand, that talked about templars switching over to using another source was Lynn Abbey's novels about Pavek the soon to be ex templar of Hammanu. In which Pavek learns to use the power granted by spirits of the land to become a druid..... not a para elemental cleric.
And you would represent that by his multiclassing. He didn't start off able to cast high level spells.
I'll deal with the things xlorep raised later.
Templars wouldn't have to be killed to prevent them from rising to too high of power levels. They could merely have their powers taken away from them or have their power level capped by the SK in question. It's not as if the templar can gain levels just by adventuring, despite what the rules on XP say. The SK has to grant them more power in order for them to gain a level in Templar.
Also Templars do not gain imortality, unless their SK decides to transform them into an undead. So templars wouldn't have to be killed for being too powerful the SK would merely cap the amount of power he is willing to grant them, and then wait for them to die. Surely someone else would be ready to take their place by the time that happened.
Once again, you are under the mistaken impression that casting an epic spell of that magnitude would go unnoticed. You are also siognificantly blurring the lines between Arcane and Divine magic.
Depends on how the magic is cast. If the Templar has been granted access to the ability to draw that much power, they probably could make the first step. Once that's been taken, there is no stopping them.
They must be extremely powerful psionic characters *and* SPECIFIC SPELLCASTERS.
But they are still able to use magic and psionics. It depends on the exact nature of templar magic. Discussed above.
The Advanced Being forms of Arcane Spellcasters from Preservers & Defilers (which is a book focused on, gasp Preservers & Defilers - IE: Arcane Spellcasters) are done through spell cycles and personal power. the ones in Earth, Air, Fire & Water the book for Clerics and Druids, however, there is no spells. There is only the development into the Advanced Being. And to be able to start that, the Cleric's patron element, or the Druid's Spirit of the Land, provides the opportunity to work down that path. The individual does have to develop it like another class, but they don't research Epic Spells to cast and become these beings.
Discussed above.
And the second a Templar casts and Epic Spell - bam, he's got the complete attention of his Sorcerer-Monarch, and just ended up on the dinner list.
Thank god for that! No epic level character will ever have to worry about powerful Templars. The sorcerer-kings are well known for slaughtering resources on the off chance that they could be a problem. Or they just keep a closer watch. A smart Templar will foresee this possibility and save drawing that power until he is ready to make the change. i also mention my view of templar magic above. Perhaps you can point to the 3.5 source where it says differently.
If it were that much of a problem, Templars would be completely incapable of casting epic spells, and the epic rules will say so.
Ahh, but it also has been defined that for Arcane spellcasters, one must [i]research, develop and cast Epic Spells[/u]. For Divine spellcasters, one must be granted the opportunity by the source of their power. By your own statements agreeing with me - the source of the Templar's power, the Vortex, is dead. Kinda hard to get that request granted. Now, the other option is that the SM themself would grant that power - and like I said, that won't really turn out so well.
I discuss templar magic above.
Or, by multiclassing into druid, as the third edition allows.
True
Being worked on as we speak. Considering you are arguing with two of the members of the Epic Bureau at Athas.org, maybe, just maybe we might know some details about what is being worked on, that we are basing our judgement calls upon.
Rules I can't see and that haven't been finished, approved or released. I am not trying to question your work, or even influence how it turns out. If it requires specific magic, then you can point out where exactly where templar magic works. Discussed more above.
Also, can non-humans other than half-elves become Advanced Beings? All the fluff has been against that to this point.
For Arcane spellcasters, there is an Epic Spell to begin the transformation. For Divine spellcasters, their source of power grants the beginning of the transformation (real simple here: special requirement for the PrC known as "Must have been granted the ability to begin this process from patron element/spirit of the land"). Your reasoning is seriously flawed here, and you are blurring the lines between Divine and Arcane spellcasters again.
Discussed above.
Incorrect. 3/3.5E allows any race to take any base class. Prestige Classes can restrict based on Race (Arcane Archer, for instance). Arcane magic still, for Dark Sun, requires you to drain energy from the plant life around you. I have no idea where you got the impression that had changed. I think even Dim Sun provides for that rule.
Ah... I was thinking of the prestiege classes such as the cerulean, leech and shadow mage. I made the mistake of understanding that, like in 2e, they allowed you to access a different energy source than plant life if you desired. I mean, what with the "They can choose whether to utilize plant energy or cerulean energy when casting spells" bit.
Of course, if you're saying that the Dark Sun 3.5 Prestiege Class Appendix 1 is violating your own rules...
There is only necessary spells for the transformation for, and I'll say it again hoping you can grasp the concept, Arcane Spellcasters. So that does not apply to Divine spellcasters, and your argument is irrelevant at this point.
Discussed above with the nature of Templar magic.
But there's no Epic Spell for Divine Metamorphoses.
Disccused above with nature of Templar magic.
Actually, everything in the books states the complete opposite of what you said here. Now you are reaching.
So Hammanu doesn't mind if his templars take bribes or bend laws in their favour? Well, his laws are just suggestions after all. If that were the case, all the templarates would have been wiped clean of corruption centuries ago. The sorcerer-kings are great guys, giving their templars only some suggestions instead of hard fast laws they expect obeyed.
Arcane magic on Athas works by taking energy. Divine magic on Athas works by being granted that energy.
Yes but.... discussed above.
Templars do not leech the power from their Sorcerer-Monarch. They are granted the power, to handle those things the SM would rather not handle themself, and the SM can easily stop the flow of magical power to that Templar, rendering them spell-less.
Ture, but above.
Templars are spontaneous spellcasters. They have a set list of spells available to them, which they can draw upon. They request the power from their Monarch for the day, and are granted it,. to use in whichever spell they have in their repertoire for the requisite level. Now you are bringing even more irrelevant arguments that do nothing to support your case.
Discussed above.
They can't exactly store the energy to use it at a later date. Sorry, but I don't think there's any rule for 3.5e that allows for any spellcaster to use the spell levels they haven't used the day before, to be used the next day on top of the spells they are granted for each day. There's no "rollover" spells. And once again, Templars are Divine spellcasters, and as such, would not have an Epic Spell to cast in order to become an Advanced Being. Period.
Um... xlorep... have you taken a look at the Myrmeleon in the Dark Sun 3.5 prestiege class appendix 1 (and Athas.org release). Read the Orb of Energy entry. Yes, it is arcane magic, but magic on athas seems to always require drawing it from somewhere, even if you get it from a sorcerer-king. Finding a way to store divine energy isn't that far fetched in a world that requires arcane magic to be powered by plant life, and then turns around to sa you can also draw it from the forces of shadow. Besides, now that I've considered how templar magic works (as discussed above) storing it for later is not longer necessary.
And it's just not possible. How many different ways do you need it written out for you?
Tell me why the sorcerer-kings, who set the laws and apparently know when a templar does anything to disobey them, allow any corruption to exist in the ranks at all. With minimal effort, they could have wiped it all out centuries ago. Show me exactly where it say the exact way the sorcerer-kings use the elemental vorticies to pass energy to their templars, how they are able to shape a source of energy that they can't actually use with as much ease as inhuman entities like the other divine patrons while keeping full tabs on all their worldly interests, and why they have full power over it but make their templars cast their spells differently than the other divine casters. Then, since I read your above statement to mean that you are a member of the Epic Bureau, explain how someone who claims to know the rules better than I makes statements about the nature of magic which flies in the face of documents that have been released and edited for issues that the community found a problem with. From where I stand, it doesn't seem that you haven't been keeping on top of the rules that the Epics are supposed to fit above. If you are part of the epic bureau, you might want to check what you've been doing with the people outside of your department.
Ahh, but a pet Defiler could potentially escape to another City-State, or some area distant, and away from their master. And they would still retain their power. Templars don't have that option. So, your argument is irrelevant.
A templar might have reason to travel outside the city. He might do the deeds there. He might find ways to do it within the city. Unless your Sorcerer-kings know exactly what their templar's are doing at all times, something that the Verdant Passage contradicts, then it should be possible.
Irrelevant statement not worthy of a real comment.
Things in fluff have to change between editions. Templar advanced beings are just as against the old fluff as mul defilers. Besides, the inclusiveness of 3e would suggest that Templars be given the same chance that other casters have.
Ok, once again, in small words this time. [b]The Sorcerer-Monarch does not need to know what their templars are doing at any moment.[b] The Sorcerer-Monarch just is aware of the energy each Templar is using, as that is what the Templars take from them - even if it's through the Vortex, the Sorcerer-Monarch does get to know how much they are taking. An individual taking more energy than others, would be quite a bit more obvious. It would be like seeing a TV full of static, and in one spot, you have a real bright light appear, standing out from the rest. That would be a Templar casting an Epic Spell. Even amidst the static, that bright light would ring out loud and clear to the SM.
They are definitely aware of the power being drawn, but not necessarily what it is used for (discussed above).
As a member of the Athas.org team, perhaps you can explain why the templar is not an NPC calss like the commoner. According to you they have no way of ever reaching the same level of power of another class, even as a proven and loyal member of the Templarate, because their king will know everything they do that displeases them and automatically deals with them, as your sorcerer-kings are apparently actual gods watching that one templar and not advanced beings with about 5000 other things that they're working on. Did the group just bow to community pressure, unlike the abmirable stand for the single wizard class? Because the Templar is apparently not meant for PCs. And how can a Templar get away with accepting a bribe?
Actually, you're incorrect on that. Paraelemental clerics can become Para-Elemental Advanced Beings. You are mixing up 2e rules with already-established 3/3.5e rules. Welcome to two years ago.
That's what I thought. So you've created the para-elemental advanced being, because the rules update meant you had to change all previous fluff. So, since no one has defined the exact amount of power that a sorcerer-king holds over the elemental energy he doles out, perhaps you can tell me where my interpretation falls apart. You did allowing para-elemental advanced beings flies in the face of their power and ability in previous editions. Apparently, there have been some changes in the ability of their patrons.
No one ever defined the link between templars and their sorcerer-kings, so it should be easier to justify the possibility of templar advanced being with my interpretation, as opposed to the complete throwing out of the weakness of the para-elemental patrons and the "creation" of new advanced beings during the 3e update you've done.
Just a thought.
Templars wouldn't have to be killed to prevent them from rising to too high of power levels. They could merely have their powers taken away from them or have their power level capped by the SK in question. It's not as if the templar can gain levels just by adventuring, despite what the rules on XP say. The SK has to grant them more power in order for them to gain a level in Templar.
Also Templars do not gain imortality, unless their SK decides to transform them into an undead. So templars wouldn't have to be killed for being too powerful the SK would merely cap the amount of power he is willing to grant them, and then wait for them to die. Surely someone else would be ready to take their place by the time that happened.
True. Unless the person took a single level in templar and then reached the limit with Psion. Even though he is a 1st level templar/34th level psion, he is still a templar and, as has been said multiple times, "no Sorcerer-king will let their templars gain that much power".
Really, it all comes down to a Templar being caught trying to make the change. While that is the most probable outcome, it isn't a guarantee. The fact that they're likely to get caught doesn't mean that they are going to get caught.
Heck, the process could be desceminated by a cerrulian mage, one who was under Tithian's control (if Tithian can actually converse with Rajaat, as suggested in RaFotDK*). If Rajaat saw a way to use the templars against the sorcerer-kings, he might use some of his servants to pass on the information as well. Likely, no. Possible, could be.
*Yes, I said that I don't count its description of Templar magic as accurate, but it was tied to an incorrect description of how dragonhood works. Tithian and Rajaat talking isn't connected to that problem and is left for the group to decide.
I realize that my idea isn't popular and has no support. At the same time, I'll see how long I'm able to defend it. Still, you might want to stick to quoting released material.
And for the final time, I'm not trying to get the Epic Bureau to accept it as a possibility. I approached you as DM to DM, not on the official level. I don't know why there is this sudden belief that I'm trying to fight the epic bureau specifically. I'll bow to their knowledge when the rules are released, but not until then.
At least I have a better idea how advanced beings work though. That was worth this.
Edit: I forgot. Necromant also casts spells without killing plantlife, xlorep. Sure, none of these groups are divine casters, but you were talking about wizards draining plantlife only, and the existance of alternate energy sources for spellcasters in general. This has been around since Preservers and Defilers. I'm surprised that you had no idea what I was talking about.
I'd continue, but I'm gonna drop it. Why? Because it'sx not worthwhile. You haven't covered half of what you claim to have, with your "mentioned above" statements. If you want Templar Advanced Beings in your own rendition of Dark Sun - cool for you. It's not an officially supported option, and the setting materials conflict with it every which way from Sunday, but go right ahead. Don't let throwing out basic concepts of the setting get in your way, after all, it didn't stop Paizo.
Throwing out basic concepts like the para-elementals being weaker than the regular elements and unable to become elemental advanced beings? I'm willing to continue this, and you are throwing out unreleased rules I can't even check. No, I didn't back down because you've claimed you're in the Epic Bureau, but I also find it quite insulting that you claim I'm completely off base, don't know the rules, and you have no idea what Athas.org has done with the way magic works? I'm sorry if I called your BS, but I'm not going to bow out simply because you have secret knowledge and expect me to bow to it.
If you want to continue this arguement we can do it in private message. If you want to comment on the nature of Templar magic and how it relates to advanced beings, we can go ahead here.
I may have assumed that I covered something above and hadn't explained the point clearly. If I am, I'm sorry. But I came here as a DM/Player to talk to other DM/Players, not to question your work or tell you how to do it.
What didn't I cover that I claimed I did? If it has anything to do with my ideas about Templar magic, lets discuss that, because its the basis of a templar advanced being. But the Epic Bureau has already started adding in their own advanced beings with the para-elementals. You can't then turn around and say that there is no way without defining the specifics of the control over the sorcerer-king and his the spells he grants. Is there a problem with my reading of the situation and mechanics of how they grant spells? Then tell me.
Dark Sun is making changes into the new edition, such as no racial restritions on core classes, prestiege classes like the leech, para-elemental advanced beings. Perhaps now would be a good time to look at the templar and really think about what's going on there.
Throwing out basic concepts like the para-elementals being weaker than the regular elements and unable to become elemental advanced beings?
I'm kind of on-board for the templar AB thing (Origin of Species : Living Vortex) epic spell cast by a templar as early as possible, severing the tie to the SK so they can't track you down is the route I'd go), but I have to say, the thing about the paraelementals you're talking about simply doesn't exist. I checked all the materials. in EAFaW, it says they can become ABs just like other clerics, and they use basically the same tables, too. I've checked every single DS release, 2E and 3E , and there is never any mention of a paraelemental AB being incapable of the AB transformation. RunningWilder, not to sound condescending, but you REALLY need to read Earth, Air, Fire and Water. the AD&D 2E Dark Sun OFFICIAL book on all things related to clerical magic. The only thing I can think you're drawing your assumption from is that paraelemental AB characters are simply not mentioned in Dragon Kings. Earth, Air , Fire, and Water supercedes Dragon Kings on things related to clerical magic. DK simply doesn't mention paraelemental AB characters, but Earth, Air, Fire and Water expands upon the concept. And also, I think I know why you think Paraelemental characters are less versatile. It's because they don't get access to other para and quasi elements like straight up Elemental AB characters do. This makes them more focused and less versatile, but not weaker. I hope I've helped clear things up.
one: as stated earlier per earth, air, fire, and water paraelemental advanced beings are entirely possible even in 2ed. And we have not even gotten to that stage in the epic rules to be honest.... we have discussed but final version is not completed.
two: your view on templar magic is..... unique to say the least in my experience. I have never heard anyone try and describe divine magic as being at all similiar to arcane magic. In fact every source in 2ed that reffered to templars specified that they were granted their magic the same as a cleric and in several of the short stories they actually showed that they "requested" to be granted specific spells.
three: I have not problems with you doing whatever you want in your own game.... I was just trying to let you know that what you were talking about violated the ideas of templars from everything written on the.....
four: as they are granted their power by sk.... they do not take it .... which is the basis of your idea. As I have said numerous times..... this is a very interesting idea, but as soon as a caster tried to start it they would cease to be getting their magic from a SK..... hence they are no longer advancing as a templar.... as templar gain power by being granted more and more power from their SK.... just like a cleric or druid does from their source.
five: at no point did I say that a SK killed their templars when they got too much power..... just that the sk's would be paying a whole lot of attention to any templar requesting that much power.
six: your idea of them casting a spell to become an advanced being is based off your assumtions of templar magic which do not match any version of their magic I have ever seen. Note a templar that could cast epic spells could transform/metamorphose themselves into something else using epic spells..... BUT they does not make them an advanced being capable of weilding psionic enchantments.....
seven: on all of your discussions on changes from 2ed to 3.5..... almost every single change you have quoted was changes made per requirements from WoTC not choices made by athas.org. In 3.5 there can be NO level limit restrictions on base classes by race..... and as was demonstrated in dragon kings the only reason only humans and half elves could become dragons and only humans could become others was there were level limits on all the classes in 2ed for the other races..... therefor they could not achieve the levels required to become advanced beings......
eight: taking point 7 into consideratrion, not even humans who had unlimited advancement in templar and psionicist could become advanced being templars of any sort.
nine: apparently you are the one who has not read the Myrmeleon PrC..... they can store the life energy for casting a extremely small number of spells not actual spells/spell slots...... for a templar to do what you are suggesting they would need two things.... the ability to drain the energy when not casting a spell....(which has never even been suggested for templars.... unlike for wizards where his is a base idea of them draining power and then casting per the fluff) and a PrC that allows them to store the power
ten: A SK does not know everything that a templar does..... nor does a spirit of the land know everything their druids do, nor does a elemental patron know everything their clerics do..... however they are all WELL aware of how much power their followers have and would start paying attention once the follower started getting too powerful. (as this is when spirits of the land and elemental patrons start grooming their advanced beings.... sk's are a bit more jealous with their power however.) And if a Sk catches his templar with his hand in the proverbial "cookie jar" (ie trying to take power that was not granted) he is not going to be helping him on the proccess and is going to cut off the magic and then hunt them down.
eleven: There are NO gods in Athas, no one is omniscient...... however the spellcasting of SK, elemental patrons, and spirits of the land go along the same lines as the DIVINE rules from WOTC for 3.5..... therefor they have the same restrictions. Which means templar magic follows all the rules of divine spellcasting per 3.5 rules...... this is a requirement of the official rules..... what you do in your own rules are your business...... BUT what you are suggesting goes against the RAW, and the fluff from the released darksun novels. (note the other 2 novels by lynn abbey in the Chronicals of Athas line, are not disputed like RaFoaDK as they do not mention anything on the nature of dragons or champions that are in the conflict with dragon kings..... and both novels explain templar magic in detail as the spells being requested from the SK. And there are numerous other short stories in the various modules released for dark sun that say the same thing.)
again..... I actually like what you have been describing..... BUT as soon as a templar started on the route you are talking about they are no longer advancing as a templar..... they are advancing in a divine draining PrC..... like the Ur-Priest. And they are running a very dangerous line of their SK cutting them off from their templar spells when the SK finds out. (not if... when.... you are not going to be able to hide that forever)
I kind of feel like I'm shouting in the wind here. Couldn't a templar, who is multiclassed with Psion, and able to manifest Epic Psionics, use a modified version of the Origin of Species epic spell to create an elemental vortex for himself, with only one endpoint (himself), then sever all ties with the vortex of his SK, thus granting himself a personal source of power? This could be done way before they were actually drawing sufficient Templar energy to attract their SK's attention, and since the SK doesn't really know how powerful with the Way a templar is (if the templar is careful), the prospective AB templar could pull this off, disappear from the SK's "radar", so to speak, and then work on advancing as a Templar with no allegiance to an SK, drawing power from a vortex that is his alone, and eventually become a new type of AB by merging further with said vortex? Not by stealing power from an SK, which is impossible, but by gaining their own source of elemental energy for their spells? Maybe they could even gain the ability to sponsor Templars of their own, in the final stage of their evolution, and lead others along this path and in the Way until they are ready to create their own vortices, thus founding the first line of "procreating" AB creatures? Somebody please give me some feedbackSorry, I was so busy trying to explain to RunningWilder why what he was talking about was not advancing as a templar, I forgot to respond to you on this.... I am sorry.
this is a very interesting idea..... only a few problems with it. But it has some things that are of definate use.
First.... a templar/psion creating its own vortex through psionics is a great idea...... the problem is they would have to link it to a living creature in a way similiar to what the SK's did for it to be usable to grant spells.... and if he bonded to himself then I would think he would be under the same limitation as the SK's were..... you can send it to others but not to yourself.
Now if they could find a way to craft a epic power that would perhaps make part of their mind seperate that actually channels the power this might work however.... something like an epic schism...... that is a very interesting idea. It would give a wa for a templar to be its own source and to power other templars right off the bat.
This would be a way of founding a version of an templar Advanced Being however... as the schismed mind could grant more and more power to the other half of the mind to allow it to possibly transform. Mind you this would be something never seen before but an interesting idea. Most likely the templar would end up undergoing something similiar to the elemental metamorphosis as it is actually channelling elemental energy..... but tere could be some quirks in it.
I really like the idea..... though I think other than being their own patron and having a different form it should really follow something almost identical to the elemental clerics as it is still elemental energy directly from the planes they are weilding. But their ability to summon elementals would be more limited most likely.
using the psicrystal is an interesting idea..... but as the cyrstal is not truely a crystal but a manifested part of the mind..... the reabsorbtion should be really easy.
Show me exactly where it say the exact way the sorcerer-kings use the elemental vorticies to pass energy to their templars, how they are able to shape a source of energy that they can't actually use with as much ease as inhuman entities like the other divine patrons while keeping full tabs on all their worldly interests, and why they have full power over it but make their templars cast their spells differently than the other divine casters.
I just want to chime in at this point to clear up an apparent misconception that the granting of templar magic has never been specifically defined in the DS setting. It has, and it's on page 53 of Earth, Air, Fire and Water:
The spells and minor powers that are given to the templars must be requested directly from the sorcerer-king, but these transactions have been played out so many times that the king is rarely even conscious of them. High-level templar spells are often supervised, however, because the sorcerer-kings are concerned about potential treachery and, in any case, they believe that they know what armaments their servants need better than their templars.
Page 57 further clarifies the relationship:
These abilities (granted powers and spells) come directly through the sorcerer-kings, who siphon energy from the elemental planes.
and
Templars on assignment outside the city also have a telepathic link with the king, but the link is only open wide enough for them to channel their spells through him. It is only through spells or psionic abilities that a templar can communicate with his master. Whatever he has to say had better be good - the sorcerer-kings don't like being bothered, and they certainly don't like their minions inside their heads.
This clarifies a few issues. Firstly, templars request all spells from their SK through worship and prayer. Secondly, powerful spell-use is supervised for treachery (and any epic spells would certainly come under this category). Thirdly, SKs do not monitor everything that their templars do - but they can monitor all spell use. Also, when read in conjunction with the passages in Dragon Kings p10-11, it is clear that the SKs gained the ability to grant spells through being fused with the now-dead elemental vortices. The vortices no longer exist, but through their connection to the vortices, the SKs gained the ability to siphon energy from the elemental planes and grant it to their worshippers. The fusion with the vortex did not grant the ability to cast elemental magic to the SKs - it granted them the ability to pass elemental energy on to their worshippers. This seems to be quite clear to me.
So, on the contentious issue of whether a templar could become an advanced being using the divine magic he gains from his SK, the answer would seem to be yes, but only with the approval of the SK in question. (A templar could, of course, advance as a defiler and a psion as well as a templar, and do it with arcane magic, but I don't think that's what is at issue here).
. How feasible this would be is another matter entirely.And even then as the basis of the energy is elemental but the source is Unique in each case, you would either end up with something unique every time you advance into one.... or end up with something almost identical to an elemental cleric advacned being.
Heh heh, yeah - the only way you are going to get it past your SK is by cutting him out of the loop in some way
Yup. I don't personally see anyone inventing an Origin of Species spell for a species that went exticnt 2,000 years ago. Especially one that had no physical form.
And once again - we're stuck with the compl.ication that the Templars, and the SM's aren't aware of the Living Vortices influence in this regard, or even their existence. The species on a while has since become extinct, so there is nothing for them to base any research on in order to determine the nature of such things. And one does not just go about poking and prodding their personal Sorcerer-Monarch nonchalantly without expecting to a) attract that SM's complete attention, or b) being killed for becoming an annoyance.
That doesn't mean that an epic psion couldn't create a new one - it just means that there aren't any in existence to be studied.
Interesting thought, except that, as Kam had pointed out, the Vortices don't really exist any more. The ones that merged with the SM, died, and became part of the SM directly. The SM's themselves don't even know of their existence, assuming that the ability to grant spells was a side-effect of the Dark Lens' effect that Borys used to initiate their Dragonhood. As the SM's aren't aware of the Vortices, logic would dictate that the Templars themselves, obviously aren't aware of them. All that is known is that the SM's are able to grant divine magical power to their followers that they themselves cannot use. And that the SM's can dictate who gets what amount of power when, and even use that link to observe how that power is being used if they desire such a thing. The Templars technically more or less worship their individual Sorcerer-Monarchs like gods, because the SM's are able to grant this power.
Snap :D.
In fact, worship of the SK is the factor that determines whether or not a templar can gain elemental magic. This is evidenced by the fact that a templar can decide to worship a different SK (if their initial SK dies, for example) and gain spells through their new patron.
Interesting thought, except that, as Kam had pointed out, the Vortices don't really exist any more. The ones that merged with the SM, died, and became part of the SM directly. The SM's themselves don't even know of their existence, assuming that the ability to grant spells was a side-effect of the Dark Lens' effect that Borys used to initiate their Dragonhood. As the SM's aren't aware of the Vortices, logic would dictate that the Templars themselves, obviously aren't aware of them. All that is known is that the SM's are able to grant divine magical power to their followers that they themselves cannot use. And that the SM's can dictate who gets what amount of power when, and even use that link to observe how that power is being used if they desire such a thing. The Templars technically more or less worship their individual Sorcerer-Monarchs like gods, because the SM's are able to grant this power.
And once again - we're stuck with the compl.ication that the Templars, and the SM's aren't aware of the Living Vortices influence in this regard, or even their existence. The species on a while has since become extinct, so there is nothing for them to base any research on in order to determine the nature of such things. And one does not just go about poking and prodding their personal Sorcerer-Monarch nonchalantly without expecting to a) attract that SM's complete attention, or b) being killed for becoming an annoyance.
You are right xlor they would not be able to study to create the "living vortices" that the SK's had...... however they could research a way to transform their psicrystal into a conduit to the elemental planes similiar to what the SK's do..... it would be risky and would be a combination of Origin of species: Living Vortice and the transform seed. You are actually looking at a pretty massive DC on something like this, and I really think it will require some impressive mitigating factors to even make it possible.
This could be done with the information they have on the SK's, without knowing about the actual living vortices..... but there is a good chance their research would lead them to beleive they would need the dark lens and the pristine tower to do it........ ie..... the psion is in for a surprise.
There are no "Living" vortices to study. They are all dead.
You surprise me , Kamelion! Anyone in the know knows about the one that is left. Ask the right people. They'll tell you
You surprise me , Kamelion! Anyone in the know knows about the one that is left. Ask the right people. They'll tell you
In that case, you may count me as being one of the wrong people
.You surprise me , Kamelion! Anyone in the know knows about the one that is left. Ask the right people. They'll tell you
Bah, I killed it on my last Hunting Trip.
Its said they were probably all deceased, you could get one but would probably need to replicate the conditions that created the original SKs. New dragons just arent noticeable enough for any (possible) remaining vortices.
When I mentioned the Myrmeleon, Xlorep had claimed that it was impossible to store any form of energy, and I showed him an official class that could store energy for later use. I realized the limits of the class, but the fact remains that Athas.org does support the ability to sort arcane magic. If you can store arcane magic... we'll we are talking about a world in which you can suck power from a storm and halflings can shape tools from living beings. Storing divine energy isn't that far a leap if you are the one that shapes it into a spell in the first place. Read through before you comment on this please.
Now, my view on Templar magic came out of the latest edition of Dark Sun. For the sake of arguement, let's ignore the above statements about advanced beings and deal with the nature of templar magic from levels 1-20. We'll discuss advanced beings in depth when we're on the same page again. Ignore my turning into a Elemental Vortex idea.
In 2nd edition, all divine casters memorized their spells and then cast them. They had lists to chose from when they slept. In third edition, the cleric prays and is granted their spell. The Druid prays, and is granted their spells. These spells sit in their mind, memorized, until they decide to call on that power, and they choose these spells from their lists every time they go to memorize a new set.
The 3e Athas.org Templar does not memorize his spells from a list, instead taking a very limited number of spells, which he cannot change until he levels up again (and then only change one). He is a spontantous caster, something he wasn't in previous editions. Spontantous casting didn't exists at the time, which makes the decision to go beyond the a core facet of templar spellcasting odd. What is happening when the Templar calls for his magic?
The sorcerer-king acts as a conduit for the energy from the elemental planes. Now, we know that he can act as a choke point, closing off this power to anyone he feels like. In second edition, it was obvious that he also shaped the power as well. In third edition... well, the shaping comes into question.
As you mentioned, the templars gain a link to their sorcerer-king when they grant the spell. The fact that they always can get the assigned spells (such as Hold Person, Greater Command, Detect Magic) makes sense. They need these spells to complete their work as templars. But what about the other spells on the spells known list.
Let's take Tritha the Templar as an example. Having just reached fourth level she gains Hold Person (her assaigned spell) and chooses Delay Poison as her only other known 2nd level spell. One day, she is attacked by a zombie. She call out to her Sorcerer-King, opening the Link and calls/begs for Return to the Earth, which is on the Templar Spell List but is not one of the spells she knows.
Here's the problem. If the sorcerer-king is able to shape the divine energy that flows from the planes to him to them, then we know he is able to grant her that spell. If he can grant any spell on the list, then he must be capable of shaping the magic himself. But instead, his Templars find themselves only able to call for certain spells.
If he is the one shaping the energy into the spell, than he is going to have to micromanage the spellcasting of all his templars. I also fail to see how he is going to remember (or care) what every single templar was cleared to cast. In the above example, Tritha was cleared for second level magic, and her master can grant the spell. If he could zap a Hold Person or Delay Poison to her the moment she asked, why not a spell of similar power.
If he shapes them all at once at a certain time and ships them out throughout the day, what happens when his spontaneous casting templars request a spell that he hasn't shaped enough of? He stops what he's doing and makes more as quickly as possible? No, he probably just lets them die and then pays to have a new one trained. Loyal follower down the tubes, but its their fault for not following the demand that the sorcerer-king expected.
As it said in the passage you quoted, Trithia can't have a conversation with him, just the call for the spell. In second edition, this meant that he could understand what she wanted (possibly because she put "notice" in earlier while memorizing) and grant it to her at the moment of casting. Now, he punishes her because she didn't have the foresight to pick a spell she was going to need in a situation down the road. Meanwhile, he sends Mulis, who did select that spell, Return to the Earth so that he can break down the corpses of some beggars who died overnight.
If you wanted to keep the idea of second edition and not introduce new interpretations, the templar would have been better represented as spellcaster who memorizes before hand, or altered it into something that more closely resembles the warmage (CA) or the Spirit Shaman (CD). With a memorizing templar, assigned spells would simply have been spells that you could spontaneously cast by sacrificing another spell of the appropriate (or higher level). Mechanically, the Templar no longer makes sense in this context.
So, what is happening? It has been established that the Sorcerer-Kings do not understand the nature of the link or how it really works. They are the source of the power for the templars. When everything is considered, it is doubtful that the sorcerer-kings spend that much time questioning every spell that is requested from them. I am talking lower level spells, not epics, epic power they'll question. They have many mortal concerns to tend too, and aren't going to waste much of their time or something minor like a fist level character who wants a cantrip. Templars get their spells from first level, when they are doing fairly menial work for the City-State. If the King had to shape all the divine energy into spells, wouldn't he save the magic for servants who had proven more worthy of it, especially if he had to spend any effort on the action. He would be constantly bombarded with the need to form the spells and send them down the chute, and at times of war he'd be hearing almost everyone at once. Unlike the Spirits of the Land and Elemental Patrons, the sorcerer-kings have involved themselves fairly deeply in mortal affairs, and have many demands on their time and effort.
Instead of being a prestiege class, the templar is a core class, meaning the 1st level poop shoveling templar is still able to request his sanctuary spell when people try to steal his shovel.
So we have a 20 level core class which spontaneously casts, requesting their power from their living god. A god who, though he can shape the magic, grants specific spells to those that have the correct permits. This way seems a little shaky. If they've reached a point where they can be trusted with 2nd level power, why does the exact spell matter. What happens when a war occurs and they need more war templars? Do they have to fill out papers and forms to request the change of spells and have the King approve this and make the changes one by one? If you want to change a spell, do you have to make the request directly or fill out some paperwork of some kind? If you research a new spell (something all other classes, even spontaneous ones, can do in DnD) do you have to convince your monarch to spend his time learning how to shape the power for you?
The way I see it, the Sorcerer-King is the conduit and choke point of this power, but not the shaper of it. Shaping the power into the correct spell would have to require some attention, and with the number of spells that a Sorcerer-King can grant per day, it would make more sense to save the magic for his higher level and most loyal followers. From the mechanics of the official Athas.org conversion, it makes more sense if the Templar is the one converting the raw energy that their sorcerer-king has granted into the spell.
Depending on his level, the Templar has proven himself to be worthy of a certain level of spells (ie 1st at first, 2nd at fourth, and so on). Once a sorcerer-king knows what the templar has earned, he is willing to dole out that amount of energy (represented by spells per level and day). The Sorcerer-king can feel when a templar requests a spell and how much energy they require. As a choke point, they can cut the templar off completely or decide that they're going to limit the amount he can have. As is mentioned in EAWF, he doesn't hear their voices, so it he wouldn't know the spell the templar is casting at that exact moment. If he was shaping the spell himself, he could probably hear the request in some way, shape or form. The king would be able to decide how much energy a given templar could take in total and at one time (limiting both spell level and spells per day). As long as the templar hasn't attracted undue attention, the king leaves it alone, takes no real notice of the call, and can probably check back later on if need be. If the templar is going to be cut off, the King makes the decision once, and doesn't have to worry about vetoing the power every single time the bad templar calls.
Being mortal, the templar mind can only hold a small number of "spell processes" (needed to shape the raw divine energy) in his mind at a given point. They're complex, so he trains until he knows them by heart, and has a hard time forgetting them. As he is trained, his is required to learn a certain spell for each level of power (his assigned spell), and the templarate offers a number of other "spell processes" to learn. These are represented by the spell list that the templar picks the spells he can know from. Shaping this raw, divine energy is more difficult than casting the spells memorized by wizards, and that is why they cannot choose new spells every day.
As an added bonus, the way this Templar allows him to research his own spells without the odd questions about the sorcerer-king's involvement. Yes, the templar would be punished severly if he is creating frivolous spells, but he would be punished for using them incorrectly too.
This also goes back to the way in which templars are not like the priests of other patrons, who lose their powers the moment they do something against their patrons interest. EAWF says that high templars are being supervised, which suggests that the Sorcerer-king does not have the same instant knowledge of their templar's actions (possibily even that they don't know exactly what spells they might be able to cast if you want to look at it that way). The corruption that has existed for centuries among all the templarates also helps in confirming this. It seems that Templars can cast spells until they are caught and reported to their King. Otherwise they would be caught the instant they took a bribe, and would be required to draw upon their lord's energy at the beginning and end of each shift to prove they have been loyal.
On the side topic of epic spells, yes they would definitely be supervised. But, if by some chance a Templar was in a distant area and was able to convince his sorcerer-king that the energy for an epic spell was life or death for the Sorcerer-Kings interests, then (if it was an absolutely masterful trap) he could theoretically get the energy and do what he pleased with it. If he could become an advanced being that had learned to forcibly draw power energy from the elemental planes and other creatures (possible, considering the different way they might be utilizing their magic), then that first step would be the only time he would need his Sorcerer-kings permission. But this is just a side note. It assumes that becoming an advanced being requires a certain the ritual path for arcane casters, and that templars are the ones that shape their divine energy instead of getting the pre-shaped kind that other clerics do. Heck, if they could figure out a vessal to store the spell energy (The Myrmeleon prc proves that it is possible) they could even do it by requesting a certain number of spell levels over time and lying about what he was doing. Obviously, you'd need a very large vessal, but it could be possible to eventually collect enough to make a go without requesting the one big epic spell. Just like a dragon needs to collect life and an avangion needs to build that tomb thing. I realize that there is a difference between divine and arcane transformations, but the Athas.org Templar is already a different kind of caster from the other priests. If he is the one who shapes the energy, its his to deal with once he gets it.
Anyway, that's my take on the past fluff and the current mechanics. Perhaps someone could explain why the templar was made a spontaneous caster, when a memorizing caster able to spontaneously transform spells of the correct level into his assigned spells would have worked so much better with the past fluff.
Please, point where my assumption is wrong and how the current mechanics support the "Sorcerer-King shapes the energy into spells" theory better. All you really have to explain is how the templar goes about researching spells and why the king shapes the divine energy into any spell on the templar list, but only gives it to specific people. I realize that spontaneous casting makes more sense with the way the fluff was presented, but the spells known list fricks everything up. If it's all about what job the templar is supposed to be doing, then they should not only have your basic assigned spell, but a set of "bureau" assigned spells. If the sorcerer-kings actually shape the spell before handing it over to the Templar, then the mechanics are either half-done or completely wrong.
This is all stuff that the different Bureaus must have gone over before when making the design decisions. I'd like to hear their explainations if possible. The Epic Bureau must have had a long discussion about each class with the correct Bureaus (and the Magic Bureau for that matter) before they began, so I'm hoping one of you two could explain the in-game reasoning for those design decisions. If you want to reference a document, I'd rather you keep to ones that you could expect me to see.
Of course, if you want to refer to something that hasn't been released, I can give you my e-mail so that you can send what you've written and talked about up to this point to me. ;)
Being mortal, the templar mind can only hold a small number of "spell processes" (needed to shape the raw divine energy) in his mind at a given point. They're complex, so he trains until he knows them by heart, and has a hard time forgetting them. As he is trained, his is required to learn a certain spell for each level of power (his assigned spell), and the templarate offers a number of other "spell processes" to learn. These are represented by the spell list that the templar picks the spells he can know from. Shaping this raw, divine energy is more difficult than casting the spells memorized by wizards, and that is why they cannot choose new spells every day.
This is more or less similar to how I see it working. A templar learns certain prayers and invocations. Due to the taxing nature of these, he can only learn so many. When he wants to cast a spell, he performs the appropriate invocation and the SK sends him the required spell energy. To quote again from EAFW: "The templars must telepathically request spells from the sorcerer-king, and the monarch, in turn, taps into the elemental plane and funnels the energy to the disciple".
Because the SK does not have a permanent telepathic hot-line to his templars, he only grants those spells that are specifically requested by invocations known to the templar in question. He could indeed micromanage every spell, but prefers not to. As per my earlier quote from EAFW, the SK is "rarely even conscious" of all spell transactions, so frequently do they occur.
So yes, the SKs really are superbeings capable of sending the requested spell energy with barely so much as a thought. They really are that powerful. However, they do not care as much as they might about what their templars are actually doing. I would say that an SK couldn't give a monkey's hoot about whether their templars are taking bribes, for example. They are not that scrupulous. Excessive or high-level spell casting will draw the SK's attention, however.
To my mind, the 3e spontaneous templar represents the 2e fluff far better than the 2e templar. If I would change anything, it would be to make each SK provide a different assigned spell at each level, just for flavour purposes.
On the myrmeleon, my comments were on the fact that they can only store extremely small amounts of energy. And that is built from a base class known to be able to drain their own energy so would thus have a better understanding of it. The only form of divine class that drains their own energy and would thus be able to gain the knowledge to do what you are looking at is a PrC, the Ur-Priest. (note a wizard/templar might be able to figure it out but that would be a significant stretch.)
I see where you are coming from on the templar magic but I think you are reading into the nature of spontainious casting a bit. (by the way it is obvious that you have thought about this alot, it just appears that you may have read into it a bit which confused the issue.)
First off spontainious caster's in D&D has never fully said how they gain spells on the arcane side let alone the divine..... and in each version I have seen while the arcane casters can learn spells they have found when they level up normally they are just learned without any outside influence. I.e. they come from somewhere inside.
Now in 2ed fluff, they mention repeatedly, in several books and short stories, that templars are spiritually broken inside by the SK's to allow them cast the spells. This is mentioned repeatedly in Brazen Gambit in refference to Pavek, and he is listed as being broken inside several times. It is mentioned that this is why a SK can make any person a templar unlike the elements and the spirits of the land who can only make some priests/druids.
This would be the logic for the spontainious casting in 3.5.... when a templar raises in level it would appear they are "imprinted" with the new spells they could be granted. Now combined with the information from earth air fire water, this would mesh perfectly. The SK is "breaking" the templars in specific ways to allow them to focus the energy he is sending them. This is why they still must request the spells and how they are able to do so. He has broken specific pathways to his templars to allow them to request energy in specific patterns. He still must send the energy down the pathways he has broken, but doind so becomes unconcious for the most part through this, as the pathways are already made.
However what you are describing makes the templars studying magic...... like a wizard. And there is nothing in the fluff that supports this. And your version also alters the nature not only of Divine spellcasting (which is granted by a power) but also the nature of spontainious casting. (by making it studied vs spontainious in its very nature)
This is more or less similar to how I see it working. A templar learns certain prayers and invocations. Due to the taxing nature of these, he can only learn so many. When he wants to cast a spell, he performs the appropriate invocation and the SK sends him the required spell energy. To quote again from EAFW: "The templars must telepathically request spells from the sorcerer-king, and the monarch, in turn, taps into the elemental plane and funnels the energy to the disciple".
Because the SK does not have a permanent telepathic hot-line to his templars, he only grants those spells that are specifically requested by invocations known to the templar in question.
That was the core of my argument about sorcerer-king/templar casting. If it makes much more sense if the templars are the ones that manipulate the raw power. There's really no justification to allow the sorcerer-king to manipulate the power for all his templars and still being pedantic enough to memorize what each one filled out the correct forms for. If the templar is shaping the raw power himself, then he is more like a divine wizard (sorcerer mechanically) that the other priests.
He could indeed micromanage every spell, but prefers not to. As per my earlier quote from EAFW, the SK is "rarely even conscious" of all spell transactions, so frequently do they occur.
So yes, the SKs really are superbeings capable of sending the requested spell energy with barely so much as a thought. They really are that powerful.
I agree that they could micromanage the flow to all of the templars if they wanted to, but don't because of their other concerns. At the same time, I don't believe that they are capable of shaping the actual spells. Shaping the divine power would require an understanding of it, and the sorcerer-kings don't know how it works, even after 1000 years. If they could shape the spells before passing them on (and do this without too much distraction) they would discovered how to personally tap into the divine energy long ago. Instead, they have only shown a definite ability to create a connection with a templar and adjust the flow of power. If they could also shape the energy personally, they would have been able to figure out how to connect themselves, just like they can do for their templars.
However, they do not care as much as they might about what their templars are actually doing. I would say that an SK couldn't give a monkey's hoot about whether their templars are taking bribes, for example. They are not that scrupulous. Excessive or high-level spell casting will draw the SK's attention, however.
Yes, the high level casting will draw their attention, but if every one of your most powerful servants has disappeared or been executed, then after one thousand years, you're going to have a hard time getting people into the position who won't be completely consumed with not getting killed.
While the Sorcerer-kings aren't that scrupulous, a templar taking a bribe is allowing a law to be broken. They're letting something in without a prpper search, or letting someone carry an illegal weapon or something, which violates a law, and the sorcerer-kings don't like challenges to their power.
So do they kill any templar who is reaches a certain level of power, or does he simply refuse to allow him to cast certain spell levels (say 8 through epic) without supervision or a really good reason that the sorcerer-king is aware. That seems much more likely, as he keeps a valuable servant alive, capable of casting spells that he can't if there is a need. He justs watches them for signs of problems and cuts them off when he feels confident they've betrayed him. If that templar then started to study psionics, that's a slightly different situation. The sorcerer-king wouldn't automatically know the amount of power and ability the templar has in the Way and the Templar can hide that with enough effort, and he shouldn't need to worry about taking extreme precautions unless they've given the Sorcerer-king a good reason to really look into the issue. Besides, most sorcerer-kings would realize that even if they are facing a 21st level templar/19th level psion, he is capable of reducing the templar's abilities to those of a 19th level psion with the barest though. After a thousand years of this power, they're not going to see a templar who can cast epic spells as a threat similar to a pet defiler who has achieved a similar feat.
We also agree that the templar has other things to do than micromanage their templars spells. I also don't think that they spend every day personally staring at what their high templars are doing. Instead, they probably use a set of spies and other checks to notify him of a problem, and only takes a personal look every so often or when they have enough reason to doubt the templar's loyalty.
Even if they effortlessly shape the templar's divine magic before they pass it on (I agree they can micromanage, just not that they can shape it), but don't
do it because they don't have the time, they aren't going to spend the physical effort and long periods of time to peep if they can delagate the job to someone else.
To my mind, the 3e spontaneous templar represents the 2e fluff far better than the 2e templar. If I would change anything, it would be to make each SK provide a different assigned spell at each level, just for flavour purposes.
Its a great class, and the designers did a good job. I like the differing assigned spells idea too. My only problem is that, without looking directly at the process of how it works (no official source ever suggested that the templars shape the raw power they were granted instead of by their sorcerer-king) and defining a few of the ambiguous areas the mechanics could become a mess. I know at least two players who would have jumped on those two questions I pointed out above.
There are no "Living" vortices to study. They are all dead. All that remains are elemental conduits that connect the SK to the elemental planes (it is not even clear that the SKs ever knew about the vortices at all). It's like a worm that burrows through the soil, leaving a path in its wake long after it is gone. The SK uses the path even though the creature that made it is now dead.
That doesn't mean that an epic psion couldn't create a new one - it just means that there aren't any in existence to be studied.
Speak With Dead: the final solution.
Why bother putting ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate?
Shoot first, THEN ask questions.
In this case, you don't even have to shoot...
But you could still shoot someone-thing.
RunningWilder
On the myrmeleon, my comments were on the fact that they can only store extremely small amounts of energy. And that is built from a base class known to be able to drain their own energy so would thus have a better understanding of it. The only form of divine class that drains their own energy and would thus be able to gain the knowledge to do what you are looking at is a PrC, the Ur-Priest. (note a wizard/templar might be able to figure it out but that would be a significant stretch.)
There was a time when plant-life (and animal-life) were the only sources of arcane magic. That changed. Drawing energy from different sources, arcane or divine, is a basis of the setting. If even a small amount of energy is capable of being stored on Athas in a minor bauble like the orb of energy, surely an epic level character of any caster type could find a way to hold the energy somewhere else, even if it constantly bleeds off overtime.
I see where you are coming from on the templar magic but I think you are reading into the nature of spontainious casting a bit. (by the way it is obvious that you have thought about this alot, it just appears that you may have read into it a bit which confused the issue.)
First off spontainious caster's in D&D has never fully said how they gain spells on the arcane side let alone the divine..... and in each version I have seen while the arcane casters can learn spells they have found when they level up normally they are just learned without any outside influence. I.e. they come from somewhere inside.
Arcane magic is different from divine. It has no outside force controlling it. Templars can go talk to their god, and if there is any kind of assigned spell, it implies that the king has some influence on the templar. Also, sorcerers are able to research new spells, taking something they've learned and taking that instead of something inside. If the spell was already in there, they wouldn't have to spend cash to learn it.
Now in 2ed fluff, they mention repeatedly, in several books and short stories, that templars are spiritually broken inside by the SK's to allow them cast the spells. This is mentioned repeatedly in Brazen Gambit in refference to Pavek, and he is listed as being broken inside several times. It is mentioned that this is why a SK can make any person a templar unlike the elements and the spirits of the land who can only make some priests/druids.
Yes, but Pavek wasn't cut out to be a templar. Also, I was under the impression that the elements cared only about making a pact and not what their followers actually did. With a little bit of training and a willingness to throw yourself off a cliff and argue very quickly, anyone could become a cleric of air.
This would be the logic for the spontainious casting in 3.5.... when a templar raises in level it would appear they are "imprinted" with the new spells they could be granted. Now combined with the information from earth air fire water, this would mesh perfectly. The SK is "breaking" the templars in specific ways to allow them to focus the energy he is sending them. This is why they still must request the spells and how they are able to do so. He has broken specific pathways to his templars to allow them to request energy in specific patterns. He still must send the energy down the pathways he has broken, but doind so becomes unconcious for the most part through this, as the pathways are already made.
If the sorcerer-king had to take the time to break the paths into every templar who levels up (and repairing and re-breaking when the templar decides he wants to have a different spell), that's still time and effort that he could be spending elsewhere. Sending energy down broken paths is going to be easy and mindless, unlike having to personally mowing down the spiritual pathways (and repairing them from time to time) of every individual templar. That isn't going to be a mindless task, as he is trying to give the magic a very specific shape. He can't do it quick or carelessly, or he's going to be left with a useless meat shell.
If he can break these paths into others, you'd think he could do the same in himself to get at the unlimited divine power that can pass through him. Does it really make sense that he can chop something as complex as a 9th level spell into someone's soul, but that none of them have figured out how to stamp themselves with a cantrip over the course of a thousand years? How would he have figured out the needed paths anyway, but still not be able to figure out why he can channel the energy in the first place.
However what you are describing makes the templars studying magic...... like a wizard. And there is nothing in the fluff that supports this. And your version also alters the nature not only of Divine spellcasting (which is granted by a power) but also the nature of spontainious casting. (by making it studied vs spontainious in its very nature)
Sorcerer-kings are not divine beings, they are advanced beings. Their nature and where their divine magic comes from is different from the elemental powers and spirits of the land, and cannot be lumped together with them. The sorcerer-kings are wizards who gained a link to untapped power on the elemental planes, and don't know why. Maybe it is because the vortex gave them a link and they follow their instincts and draw the power towards them, like a wizard. The other divine patrons were naturally link and are giving of themselves. The magic is of the same type, but it isn't and shouldn't be portrayed as being granted or touched by the patrons in the same manor.
If the templars are really broken inside by the sorcerer-kings, can they betray him? You would think that an entity that can do something like that to your soul wouldn't have trouble putting in traps or something to ensure your loyalty while they were in there. It isn't like they have a number of stamps and can't vary from them.
If they do have a number of stamps, how would you allow templars to research new spells, as clerics and druids can. The inclusiveness of the 3e rules makes this a feature of all spellcasting classes, and taking it away is similar to refusing a core class to a character based on racial grounds. The templar can't do the reasearch, because, as you said, the sorcerer-king is the one that does all of the etching of pathways, the templar is just a medium. The templar wouldn't know how it is done, so all he could really do it ask his sorcerer-king to do it for him. There is no way the sorcerer-king is going to do that. He isn't going to drop everything and try to learn how to break new paths into his templar's soul because one guy asked for it. While he could only take the new spell when he leveled up, he can research it before that time. It is unfair to make a templar who has the time and resources have to go and convince a level 35+ character (who has many other pressing concerns and a penchant for eating those that annoy him) to learn a single spell so that he can cast it. It doesn't sit with the 3e philosophy that you're trying to match in letting muls and other races take formerly restricted classes.
No, this method was never discussed in past books. Lynn Abbey is the only author who really discussed what was going on, but you have to remember that she made a lot of mistakes in describing the casting. For one, the sorcerer-king was able to directly see what the templar was doing at the time of casting, as well as where he was. He was able to converse through the link. This flies in the face of EAWF. Worst of all, the act of channeling divine magic speed the sorcerer-kings on the way to dragonhood. Considering all of this, Pavek's spells coming from broken pathways doesn't stand up very well.
Now, if you agree with Abbey and your dragons proceed up the list because of the amount of divine magic they grant, then you are right and her descriptions are sancroset. Otherwise you need to try again. If the spells known idea isn't working, then tell me how the templar researches new spells. I like what Athas.org did mechanically with the templar. But if they're trying to represent the spellcasting of the 2e templar, they're doing it wrong. It would have been better to leave the templar as a memorizer, as he was in all of the other editions.
This is all stuff that should have been discussed in the design phase. The spontaneous casting templar you're describing and that comes out of 2e would make far more sense as a warmage type character. Tiny spells known lists confuse the issue, as the being that made the decisions can be reached for questioning.
However, this seems to me to be a non-issue, mechanically speaking. There is no mechanical reason at all to prevent the DM from ruling it either way. You could just as easily state that the SK does provide the entire spell-package, energy and shape. It seems to me to be a matter of personal preference as to how you want your SKs to come across.
If they could shape the spells before passing them on (and do this without too much distraction) they would discovered how to personally tap into the divine energy long ago. Instead, they have only shown a definite ability to create a connection with a templar and adjust the flow of power. If they could also shape the energy personally, they would have been able to figure out how to connect themselves, just like they can do for their templars.
Here I disagree. The SK is completely unable to tap the elemental planes himself as he does not have the right kind of connection to the conduits. He is a facilitator, not a beneficiary, and never can be a beneficiary, no matter how well he understands the process. That is a limitation of the nature of the conduits, and the curse of the SKs' condition.
While the Sorcerer-kings aren't that scrupulous, a templar taking a bribe is allowing a law to be broken. They're letting something in without a prpper search, or letting someone carry an illegal weapon or something, which violates a law, and the sorcerer-kings don't like challenges to their power.
Again, I disagree here. The SKs rule primarily by fear and strength and a corrupt templarate is an effective method of instilling fear. I would even go so far as to suggest that the SKs want their templars to behave in a questionable manner. A corrupt templar is no challenge whatsoever to the power of an SK. Templars are little bugs - let them play their petty mortal games.
So do they kill any templar who is reaches a certain level of power, or does he simply refuse to allow him to cast certain spell levels (say 8 through epic) without supervision or a really good reason that the sorcerer-king is aware. That seems much more likely, as he keeps a valuable servant alive, capable of casting spells that he can't if there is a need. He justs watches them for signs of problems and cuts them off when he feels confident they've betrayed him >snip<
Agreed - I would say that this is exactly how an SK keeps his upper-echelon templars in line.
Its a great class, and the designers did a good job. I like the differing assigned spells idea too. My only problem is that, without looking directly at the process of how it works (no official source ever suggested that the templars shape the raw power they were granted instead of by their sorcerer-king) and defining a few of the ambiguous areas the mechanics could become a mess. I know at least two players who would have jumped on those two questions I pointed out above.
I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree that it needs to impact upon the mechanics in any way whatsoever. It's a flavour/fluff issue, imho, and relates solely to the DM's perception on how the SK/templar relationship works as it regards spellcasting. Rather than mechanics, it's more metaphysics.
(Apologies for the delay in replying - I just got delivery of one of my basses back from the USA after having it restored and had to go an indulge my other obsession for a bit :D...)
Also, sorcerers are able to research new spells, taking something they've learned and taking that instead of something inside.
Dude, sorcerors don't pay anything to learn their spells. They're innate and free. Wizards pay for spells (beyond the ones gained every level.)
A water cleric who stands at the edge of the silt sea and starts pouring full water in for no reason will lose his divine powers almost instantly instantly.
A druid who invites a defiler into a lush grove and then asks him for a magic show is going to lose his powers instantly.
A templar who accepts money to not search the noted smugglers cart... keeps his powers until his sorcerer-king learns of it.
Why is that? In accepting a bribe, the templar is not only allowing his "god's" law to be broken, but he himself is breaking the law, as well as breaking faith with his Sorcerer-king. Since templars are able to do this on a daily basis as long as they aren't caught, and corruption is wide spread, they aren't the subservient worshippers that serve the other patrons. They are there to enforce the king's law, not let it slide because he's getting offered coin. A corrupt templar can rise very high in the ranks, even becoming second to the sorcerer-king if he's canny enough to not get caught. He isn't truely faithful the way a real priest is, but he still recieves his powers and is not an Ur-priest (though his methods are broaching on being similar). This has been in the fluff all along. This corrupt templar is who perfectly be capable of working against the king's wishes in subtle ways, and would not be above deciding to abandon him if there was a chance to become just as powerful.
Its pretty obvious that the templar stands out pretty far from the other priests. Sorcerer-kings are extremely powerful, but they were not born to the divine power they can channel. They are wizards who can act as a conduit for power from the elemental planes. It makes sense that their priests would act slightly more like wizards in their castings than your normal priest.
Now, on further reflection, the idea of spiritual pathways could work, but I feel that it is the templar who breaks these down, not the sorcerer-king. Through his training he learns what is required and forces them in. Pavek took to these hard because he wasn't a templar at heart and wasn't made for that kind of life.
If you want to picture this. The elemental planes are a big jug of water. The sorcerer-king is a smaller jug, connected by a tube. Finally, his templars are even smaller jugs below him.
If the sorcerer-king shapes the magic or places it down a specific pathway for the templar, the king can have (for the sake of arguement) 5 to 15 tubes connecting to the templar. The templar then has one tube that empties into a glass of water, representing the cast spell.
All day, specific tubes are begin indicated for a required spell, which the sorcerer-monarch mental shunts the energy into, and blocks off all the tubes of the ones that have fallen out of favour. He knows who is casting what at all times, and can easily question and peek when a high templar summons a spell to prevent scrying. With thousands of templars, there are going to be millions of tubes to select from. Sure, we can assume that he can do this effortlessly, but you would think that he wouldn't want to waste that much of his intellect on granting his sewage workers a single healing spell.
If the templar shapes the power into a spell, then there is a single tube running from the sorcerer-king to each templar, and then a bunch of tubes from each templar to his spells. When the templar requests a spell, he opens the link and lets the energy from the sorcerer-king begin to flow. The king can notice the drain going down the tube to that one templar, and can keep track of how much energy is going out and at a given time, regulating the level and number of spells he can cast. He can question the power output, peek if he likes, or cut it off completely. The templar then decides which tube he wants to pour the water down, casting that given spell.
The sorcerer-king is able to deal with either system. In the first though, it would require much more of his attention, even if it had gone to the point where he was able to do it without thought. He has tons of things to worry about, such as Rajaat, the other Sorcerer-kings, plots against him, plots he's making, things he's researching for kicks, the running of all of his holdings and ensuring that he's prepared for any type of betrayal that might occur. The first model would seem more likely if the sorcerer-kings saved spells for their more trusted and worthy disciples. The second model does a good job of explaining why unproven templars are given their spells fresh from training.
Being able to multi-task like in the first model is one thing, being willing to waste any effort (even a subconcious one that could be working on other things) to empower an unproven servant is another. The sorcerer-kings aren't that wasteful with their own time and energies. Besides, being able to manipulate the power that much would mean the Sorcerer-king had a large amount of control over it. One of them would have found a way to tap it for themselves by now if they were that proficient in its use.
I realize that none of this has been declared in the 2e fluff, but can you honestly say that the fluff was consistant on all facts? Sometimes you need to look at the fluff and then take a look at the logic behind it. I know my players will and do ask me hard questions like that, and "the fluff says this" isn't an answer if they can poke holes in it. Athas.org is not trying to re-create the world, but they have to make it fit the inclusive feel of the third edition rules and should be looking at fixings setting inconsistancies while they're at it. WotC has the final say, but you don't lose anything for popping in an expaination they left blank or clearing up something that had been fuggled by inconsistant details. They did that for the Ravenloft campagin setting, I doubt they'd hang you for considering that approach here.
Arcane and divine magic are not exactly the same thing, but the nature of magic itself is different in Athas. The sorcerer-kings are not divine beings like the elemental patrons, but they draw power from the elemental planes in a different way that the others. The vorticies gave them a link, and now they but they can only move the power (possibly shape it between if you like the complex answer) from one place to another, and it seems similar to a wizard drawing energy for his spells. The other patrons can grant whatever spell their priest requests, but have been weakened and cannot provide the raw flood of power the sorcerer-kings have access to (represented by the larger number of spells per day in 3e).
Dude, sorcerors don't pay anything to learn their spells. They're innate and free. Wizards pay for spells (beyond the ones gained every level.)
If they're researching spells not found on the wizard/sorcerer list, Terminus. They have to pay when they try to find those spells, and they can't actually cast it until they go up a level.
There was a time when plant-life (and animal-life) were the only sources of arcane magic. That changed. Drawing energy from different sources, arcane or divine, is a basis of the setting. If even a small amount of energy is capable of being stored on Athas in a minor bauble like the orb of energy, surely an epic level character of any caster type could find a way to hold the energy somewhere else, even if it constantly bleeds off overtime.
First, drawing energy is what arcane casters do..... divine casters, by definition, are granted energy. Therefor they do not aquire the understanding of the energy they are being given the way someone has to to be able to draw the energy themselves..... divine magic is granted.
You could of course store energy in some type of magic item, but how is the divine caster going to access it? As they have NO experience in drawing energy themselves..... that was the significant differrence of the Ur-Priest vs every other form of divine caster. They could actively drain what they wanted from sources instead of being granted it. There has never been anything written about a templar being able to drain elemental energy on their own without permission.
Arcane magic is different from divine. It has no outside force controlling it. Templars can go talk to their god, and if there is any kind of assigned spell, it implies that the king has some influence on the templar. Also, sorcerers are able to research new spells, taking something they've learned and taking that instead of something inside. If the spell was already in there, they wouldn't have to spend cash to learn it.
Ah we agree arcane and divine magic are different..... But remember in researching spells for divine casters, the money and the research are spent in a different way that an arcane caster researching. Divine casters spend research in learning how to be granted a new spell and offer it up to their source to see if it will be granted. And I would think a SK would be more than happy to allow a researched spell as it brings more power to them as the new spell can then be granted to their other templars.
Yes, but Pavek wasn't cut out to be a templar. Also, I was under the impression that the elements cared only about making a pact and not what their followers actually did. With a little bit of training and a willingness to throw yourself off a cliff and argue very quickly, anyone could become a cleric of air.
Actually the books were specific as stating ALL templars were broken inside by being templars, not just Pavek.... and many of the druids were saying that no templar could learn druidic magic as they were broken to the SK's path. (Pavek proved them wrong, just as the old druidess herself had, as she used to be Hamanu's favorite.) And everything I saw in the fluff and in earth air fire and water, specified that the elementals were only concerned with the pact not the actions, however there were only certain people they could make the pacts with..... which is why there were so few elemental clerics..... same thing with Druids..... however a SK could make anyone into a templar.
If the sorcerer-king had to take the time to break the paths into every templar who levels up (and repairing and re-breaking when the templar decides he wants to have a different spell), that's still time and effort that he could be spending elsewhere. Sending energy down broken paths is going to be easy and mindless, unlike having to personally mowing down the spiritual pathways (and repairing them from time to time) of every individual templar. That isn't going to be a mindless task, as he is trying to give the magic a very specific shape. He can't do it quick or carelessly, or he's going to be left with a useless meat shell.
Ahhh now you are hitting the meat of it. This actually is what is pointing to why the templar list is smaller than others...... Think of it this way the SK's "stamp" the spells into the spirit of their templars in specific shapes. (and they only have so many stamps available to use, this is the limit of what spells are on the templar list.) Now each templar willl have these broken holes in their spirit in the forms of the spells they can cast...... once this is done all the SK has to do is send energy to fill the hole and the templar can cast the spell. But the SK is making the holes......
Now by this analogy you have 2 ways to look at research.
first the templar researches how the spell is and asks the SK to cut a hole in his spirit in the right shape....
or second the templar cuts it in himself and then tries to convince the SK to fill it...... (note on the second option the SK would sure as heck be looking into what the shape does, as that would be something that gets his notice.... they are mages after all and one of the traits of mages is curiousity of new magics)
This follows the fluff and keeps things within the rules and guidelines of 3.5. what you are suggesting is basically that the SK acts as a hose to pour power to his followers willy nilly, and to be honest the fluff does not agree with that..... if that is how you want it for your own game, that is fine..... but purist are not going to agree.
If he can break these paths into others, you'd think he could do the same in himself to get at the unlimited divine power that can pass through him. Does it really make sense that he can chop something as complex as a 9th level spell into someone's soul, but that none of them have figured out how to stamp themselves with a cantrip over the course of a thousand years? How would he have figured out the needed paths anyway, but still not be able to figure out why he can channel the energy in the first place.
A brain surgeon does not cut himself open to make changes either.......
it would be like being made of ice and trying to chip away just what you want without cutting yourself in half.
However as I said earlier in the post I can think of one way it might be possible for a SK to do so.... and there is a chance that Draskinor did so and drove himself insane. (note this is strictly hypothetical and in no way official.... just an interesting thought I had.) By making an epic power that creates a permanent schism and have one mind grant the other the templar magic.
Sorcerer-kings are not divine beings, they are advanced beings. Their nature and where their divine magic comes from is different from the elemental powers and spirits of the land, and cannot be lumped together with them. The sorcerer-kings are wizards who gained a link to untapped power on the elemental planes, and don't know why. Maybe it is because the vortex gave them a link and they follow their instincts and draw the power towards them, like a wizard. The other divine patrons were naturally link and are giving of themselves. The magic is of the same type, but it isn't and shouldn't be portrayed as being granted or touched by the patrons in the same manor.
Actually the dragons are advanced beings yes.... and they are not divine..... however they did not make it possible to grant templar magic per the rules they are the controls on a set of pathways to the elemental planes made by dead entities that allowed the linkage. And the idea that they have no control of it goes in the face of what was written in every source about templars for darksun. (especially since if that was the case how are they still able to create new templars.) The quotes above from earth air fire and water show where that statement is proved false in darksun. Again if you want your SK's in your game to be like that, that is fine..... but that would be your house rule.
If the templars are really broken inside by the sorcerer-kings, can they betray him? You would think that an entity that can do something like that to your soul wouldn't have trouble putting in traps or something to ensure your loyalty while they were in there. It isn't like they have a number of stamps and can't vary from them.
Of course they can betray them.... I was not saying he broke their mind, but that he broke them spiritually, and that was per the fluff not my wording on it. The spirit and the mind were seperate things in darksun..... Also I am sure a SK could put traps in their templar's minds but that is not something they would normally expend the energy to do..... as that would take their own arcane energy vs the elemental energy they are directing.
If they do have a number of stamps, how would you allow templars to research new spells, as clerics and druids can. The inclusiveness of the 3e rules makes this a feature of all spellcasting classes, and taking it away is similar to refusing a core class to a character based on racial grounds. The templar can't do the reasearch, because, as you said, the sorcerer-king is the one that does all of the etching of pathways, the templar is just a medium. The templar wouldn't know how it is done, so all he could really do it ask his sorcerer-king to do it for him. There is no way the sorcerer-king is going to do that. He isn't going to drop everything and try to learn how to break new paths into his templar's soul because one guy asked for it. While he could only take the new spell when he leveled up, he can research it before that time. It is unfair to make a templar who has the time and resources have to go and convince a level 35+ character (who has many other pressing concerns and a penchant for eating those that annoy him) to learn a single spell so that he can cast it. It doesn't sit with the 3e philosophy that you're trying to match in letting muls and other races take formerly restricted classes.
again as I said above you have 2 ways to look at research.
first the templar researches how the spell is and asks the SK to cut a hole in his spirit in the right shape....
or second the templar cuts it in himself and then tries to convince the SK to fill it...... (note on the second option the SK would sure as heck be looking into what the shape does, as that would be something that gets his notice.... they are mages after all and one of the traits of mages is curiousity of new magics)
No, this method was never discussed in past books. Lynn Abbey is the only author who really discussed what was going on, but you have to remember that she made a lot of mistakes in describing the casting. For one, the sorcerer-king was able to directly see what the templar was doing at the time of casting, as well as where he was. He was able to converse through the link. This flies in the face of EAWF. Worst of all, the act of channeling divine magic speed the sorcerer-kings on the way to dragonhood. Considering all of this, Pavek's spells coming from broken pathways doesn't stand up very well.
Now, if you agree with Abbey and your dragons proceed up the list because of the amount of divine magic they grant, then you are right and her descriptions are sancroset. Otherwise you need to try again. If the spells known idea isn't working, then tell me how the templar researches new spells. I like what Athas.org did mechanically with the templar. But if they're trying to represent the spellcasting of the 2e templar, they're doing it wrong. It would have been better to leave the templar as a memorizer, as he was in all of the other editions.
First off you are confusing what was written in seperate books..... Only in RaFoaDK did Abbey list that dragons are advanced (or specifically only Hamanu was advanced) by granting spells and that the templar magic came through the dark lens..... That was not mentioned at all in the earlier books I was using as refference..... you are trying to use her later work to discredit whatever selected parts of her earlier work you do not agree with. And note Abbey was not the only one to show templars like this. They were also shown like this in several of the short stories dealing with templars from the modules from second edition.
And on the SK being able to see through the link and speak to the templars, she was only showing this with Hamanu...... and Hamanu even in cannon is different than the other SK's.... he takes a more active hand in his city than just about any of the other SK's. So him using magic or psionics to watch over his templars is not too far fetched. Note it never stated that he could only look at them when they asked for spells, or that he was granted those abilities just because he was granting them spells. But if it does create a minor telepathic link to the templars as earth air fire and water states, then it would not be hard for a SK to use his own power to strengthen it to allow viewing or communication.... but that is just curious brainstorming as to the reasons, not actually the point of our discussion.
This is all stuff that should have been discussed in the design phase. The spontaneous casting templar you're describing and that comes out of 2e would make far more sense as a warmage type character. Tiny spells known lists confuse the issue, as the being that made the decisions can be reached for questioning.
As I am in the epic bureau and not in the group that created the 3.5 templars, I do not know all the reasons they changed it the way they did. I am just breaking down the logical reasons as to why the current system matches the fluff from 2ed and in which ways what you were describing does not. What you are describing crosses too many lines of arcane vs divine magic for how templars have always been protrayed.
EAFW does indeed seem to suggest that the SKs do not shape the specific spells in question (p55: "Much to their frustration and dismay, the sorcerer-kings cannot use the vast amounts of power they receive from the inner planes, they can only redirect it to lesser beings - their templars.") Instead, it is a 2-part action, with the templar setting the parameters of the request and the SK providing the juice to match. However, the SK provides the juice for the requested spell only and no other.
If the spells are all of equal level, its fair to expect them to use the same amount of power. If the sorcerer-king isn't the one shaping the magic into a spell for the templar, and we know he can only feel the call and send the power down the link, how does he know how the templar decides to shape it at the end.
However, this seems to me to be a non-issue, mechanically speaking. There is no mechanical reason at all to prevent the DM from ruling it either way. You could just as easily state that the SK does provide the entire spell-package, energy and shape. It seems to me to be a matter of personal preference as to how you want your SKs to come across.
As I said, it becomes stick when the templar begins to research spells not on his Templar list.
Here I disagree. The SK is completely unable to tap the elemental planes himself as he does not have the right kind of connection to the conduits. He is a facilitator, not a beneficiary, and never can be a beneficiary, no matter how well he understands the process. That is a limitation of the nature of the conduits, and the curse of the SKs' condition.
But we know that he is able to create the conduits, and has been doing so for centuries. If he also had the power to reach in and manipulate the energy into a given spell, there would probably be some way around it. After all, there was no arcane magic until Rajaat discovered how to make it work. Mortals can figure that out, just about anything is possible involving magic on Athas.
Again, I disagree here. The SKs rule primarily by fear and strength and a corrupt templarate is an effective method of instilling fear. I would even go so far as to suggest that the SKs want their templars to behave in a questionable manner. A corrupt templar is no challenge whatsoever to the power of an SK. Templars are little bugs - let them play their petty mortal games.
A feverently loyal templarate that obeys your every whim and will not allow your laws to be broken without losing their lives in the process is a better templarate. It really means that the King is inviolable. But I agree that they don't really care, and that its easier to catch the messes later than putting the effort in now. They have bigger fish to fry.
Agreed - I would say that this is exactly how an SK keeps his upper-echelon templars in line.
I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree that it needs to impact upon the mechanics in any way whatsoever. It's a flavour/fluff issue, imho, and relates solely to the DM's perception on how the SK/templar relationship works as it regards spellcasting. Rather than mechanics, it's more metaphysics.
The mechanics and the fluff need to work together as seemlessly as possible. If the vision that Athas.org is putting forward involves sorcerer-kings who shape the divine magic for their templars, then they need to step back and explain things like how he researchs new spells under those conditions, or why he becomes that limited (thought the broken down spiritual paths do a fair idea, if increasing how much effort the king must place into keeping the templarate running).
In converting the defiler and preserver, it was decided to make them into the single wizard class they were explained to be, but ignore a lot of the fluff on the difference. The new defiler no longer gets more spells or goes up in level faster. His benefits are not as immediate as they were in past editions, because of the nature of the new rule setting. Making the templar a spontaneous caster was also an interesting decision, and opens up a number of questions. If they really wanted to play it safe, they have a number of other ways of dealing with the class.
(Apologies for the delay in replying - I just got delivery of one of my basses back from the USA after having it restored and had to go an indulge my other obsession for a bit :D...)
Not a problem. There's nothing like wallowing in new "toys".
The way I've always seen it is this: Templars request their spells from their Sorcerer King as they need them (spontaneous casting). Through the use of their connection with the King, the King is able to channel the energy to them necessary to cast that spell. Even though the King cannot access this power themself, they do have the ability to focus it to individuals to further their purposes.
Basically, the King controls the spigot on the water fountain, but can't drink themselves: they can only turn it on and off for those they choose to grant the powers. There are many examples where templars cross a line or step on a toe and are tossed into the arena, are forced to flee the city, etc. They are not powerless, because they still learned things while they were gaining levels, but they can no longer cast spells.
Now keep in mind that the Sorcerer King knows when a templar requests a spell. In fact, if the spell is minor, it does not require as much concentration. It's a safe bet that Sorcerer Kings don't even have to concentrate on lower-level spells, since they've been granting them for several millennia. Higher level spells, however, might require a bit more concentration, which is a good reason to control how many people gain access to those spells (since they likely wouldn't be able to control the sudden influx of energy). So a Sorcerer King would be aware of spells they were granting and even more so as the level of the spell increases.
But this does not mean that the Sorcerer King is reading the mind of the templar (although that's probably the case with higher-level templars).
Even so, a templar is granted their power through their Sorcerer King and are thus granted all of their divine energy by that being. The elements are not willingly giving up this power: the Sorcerer Kings are stealing it. Since the Sorcerer Kings are only the doorway, and not the progenitors of the power, they could not infuse their stooges with the ability to become an advanced being.
My vote? I couldn't see a Templar/Psion becoming an advanced being and a Sorcerer King would never tolerate the challenge to their authority (one of the main reasons why the high templars in every city state are almost never above 15th level).
A few more thoughts.
A water cleric who stands at the edge of the silt sea and starts pouring full water in for no reason will lose his divine powers almost instantly instantly.
A druid who invites a defiler into a lush grove and then asks him for a magic show is going to lose his powers instantly.
A templar who accepts money to not search the noted smugglers cart... keeps his powers until his sorcerer-king learns of it.
by all the books..... not just the chronicals, but all of them, that deal with the SK's.... they do not seem to have any problem with their templars taking minor bribes..... in fact they seem to encourage it. That is gone into detail in the chronicals series but is mentioned pretty often in the other cases.
A better example would be a templar casting spells to asist a rival SK in invading the templars city-state..... and I am pretty sure that would be noticed pretty quick. Note I do agree that SK's do not keep as close of tabs on their templars as the Elemetals and Spirits of the lands. (however that could be because individual elemental patrons and spirits of the land have fewer followers to watch..... this is something that was never discussed in 2ed and should be brought up as an option that you may not have considered.)
Why is that? In accepting a bribe, the templar is not only allowing his "god's" law to be broken, but he himself is breaking the law, as well as breaking faith with his Sorcerer-king. Since templars are able to do this on a daily basis as long as they aren't caught, and corruption is wide spread, they aren't the subservient worshippers that serve the other patrons. They are there to enforce the king's law, not let it slide because he's getting offered coin. A corrupt templar can rise very high in the ranks, even becoming second to the sorcerer-king if he's canny enough to not get caught. He isn't truely faithful the way a real priest is, but he still recieves his powers and is not an Ur-priest (though his methods are broaching on being similar). This has been in the fluff all along. This corrupt templar is who perfectly be capable of working against the king's wishes in subtle ways, and would not be above deciding to abandon him if there was a chance to become just as powerful.
Again in the books the SK's expect and in many cases seem to encourage the templars to take small bribes as the smugglers cargo is actually needed for a city to run properly ..... just as the SK's need the veiled alliance as a scapegoat and way to keep their defilers in line and to keep your enemies and allies close.
Its pretty obvious that the templar stands out pretty far from the other priests. Sorcerer-kings are extremely powerful, but they were not born to the divine power they can channel. They are wizards who can act as a conduit for power from the elemental planes. It makes sense that their priests would act slightly more like wizards in their castings than your normal priest.
the templars are buearecrats as well as priests so yes there are differences due to this. However there is nothing that shows the SK's even care enough about most of their laws to want their templars to not take bribes...... if everyone is scared that there is no chance of getting out of the laws if caught..... there would be alot less trade in the cities.... Taking Urik for example it is illegal to trade with a place that Hamanu is at war with and since Hamanu is at war with ALL the other SK's at least in name..... no trade whatsoever could ever be done in Urik if the laws were enforced.... IMHO the laws are there to give the templars an excuse to gather money and slaves for the SK..... not because the SK actually believes in them.
And nothing in the fluff indicates that the templars have a scholarly approach to magic like the wizards do.... they may not be the most faithful.... but they still supplicate themselves before the SK to be granted power.
Now, on further reflection, the idea of spiritual pathways could work, but I feel that it is the templar who breaks these down, not the sorcerer-king. Through his training he learns what is required and forces them in. Pavek took to these hard because he wasn't a templar at heart and wasn't made for that kind of life. Snip
Very interesting idea for a spell system, and as I said before it would be a good house rule. However it does go against how templar magic is described in botht the fluff and earth air fire and water.
I realize that none of this has been declared in the 2e fluff, but can you honestly say that the fluff was consistant on all facts? Sometimes you need to look at the fluff and then take a look at the logic behind it. I know my players will and do ask me hard questions like that, and "the fluff says this" isn't an answer if they can poke holes in it. Athas.org is not trying to re-create the world, but they have to make it fit the inclusive feel of the third edition rules and should be looking at fixings setting inconsistancies while they're at it. WotC has the final say, but you don't lose anything for popping in an expaination they left blank or clearing up something that had been fuggled by inconsistant details. They did that for the Ravenloft campagin setting, I doubt they'd hang you for considering that approach here.
That is what athas.org is trying to do..... and I have given several explanations that match the fluff and the rules as they are written that follow 3.5 guidelines. Now I do not know the specific reasons they did templars the way they did as I was not part of that proccess. But I have given a rational that fits all the information available on it.
Yes but on ravenloft they bought the rights to ravenloft....... Athas.org does not have those rights.
Arcane and divine magic are not exactly the same thing, but the nature of magic itself is different in Athas. The sorcerer-kings are not divine beings like the elemental patrons, but they draw power from the elemental planes in a different way that the others. The vorticies gave them a link, and now they but they can only move the power (possibly shape it between if you like the complex answer) from one place to another, and it seems similar to a wizard drawing energy for his spells. The other patrons can grant whatever spell their priest requests, but have been weakened and cannot provide the raw flood of power the sorcerer-kings have access to (represented by the larger number of spells per day in 3e).
The statement that they draw and/or shape elemental energy differently than the elemental patrons to the extreme you are going with this is personall opinion only. This is not what the cannon has stated, in fact the cannon never showed a comparison between the two methods of divine casting. Therefor this is personal opinion only. (though again as I have said it is an interesting option for ideas for a way of running them.)
But we know that he is able to create the conduits, and has been doing so for centuries. If he also had the power to reach in and manipulate the energy into a given spell, there would probably be some way around it. After all, there was no arcane magic until Rajaat discovered how to make it work. Mortals can figure that out, just about anything is possible involving magic on Athas.
Actually I gave the reasons why this would not be being attempted in the above posts and a possible solution for a powerfull enough psion SK that could get around it.....
A feverently loyal templarate that obeys your every whim and will not allow your laws to be broken without losing their lives in the process is a better templarate. It really means that the King is inviolable. But I agree that they don't really care, and that its easier to catch the messes later than putting the effort in now. They have bigger fish to fry.
A feverently loyal templarate requires alot more attention from the SK..... and to be honest it would make the cities almost unlivable..... a feverently loyal group following the whims of a nigh immortal evil despot is going to make like really bad for anyone living in the city....... Which means people are going to leave.
The mechanics and the fluff need to work together as seemlessly as possible. If the vision that Athas.org is putting forward involves sorcerer-kings who shape the divine magic for their templars, then they need to step back and explain things like how he researchs new spells under those conditions, or why he becomes that limited (thought the broken down spiritual paths do a fair idea, if increasing how much effort the king must place into keeping the templarate running).
it would be good to have all these things cleared up, I agree..... the thing is everyone at athas.org is devoting their free time to it..... we are not payed for this, which means we sometimes dont have all the time we need to answer all questions on something. And somethings are left to just follow standard rules from the PHB..... which is what I have been stating..... by the PHB divine magic does not work the way you are describing.... it is granted.
In converting the defiler and preserver, it was decided to make them into the single wizard class they were explained to be, but ignore a lot of the fluff on the difference. The new defiler no longer gets more spells or goes up in level faster. His benefits are not as immediate as they were in past editions, because of the nature of the new rule setting.
Actually this was required by WotC this was not something that there was any descision on by athas.org.
Making the templar a spontaneous caster was also an interesting decision, and opens up a number of questions.
IMHO this was done to make them fit the fluff more of the limits of the SK to provide spells ..... if the templars were shaping the spells themselves it would make more sense if they had just the regular priest list with a few required.... they do not. But again, I was not part of the design team on this. I am just analysing after the fact.
A templar who accepts money to not search the noted smugglers cart... keeps his powers until his sorcerer-king learns of it.
Why is that?
You answer this perfectly well yourself. SKs are not gods/sacred elements with requirements of faith. Their rules of service to their templars are "Fear Me. Obey Me. Keep the liddle peeple in line." And that's it.
Besides, being able to manipulate the power that much would mean the Sorcerer-king had a large amount of control over it. One of them would have found a way to tap it for themselves by now if they were that proficient in its use.
They can't tap it, no matter how clever or proficient they are. The elemental conduits do not allow them to do so. They allow them to pass energy to their templars and nothing more. The living vortices do not function in any other way.
I realize that none of this has been declared in the 2e fluff, but can you honestly say that the fluff was consistant on all facts? Sometimes you need to look at the fluff and then take a look at the logic behind it.
It has been declared in the 2e fluff. EAFW lays it out in no uncertain terms.
If the spells are all of equal level, its fair to expect them to use the same amount of power. If the sorcerer-king isn't the one shaping the magic into a spell for the templar, and we know he can only feel the call and send the power down the link, how does he know how the templar decides to shape it at the end.
He knows what the templar will do because the templar has asked him to provide energy for a specific spell, not just any old spell of any old level.
The mechanics and the fluff need to work together as seemlessly as possible. If the vision that Athas.org is putting forward involves sorcerer-kings who shape the divine magic for their templars, then they need to step back and explain things like how he researchs new spells under those conditions, or why he becomes that limited (thought the broken down spiritual paths do a fair idea, if increasing how much effort the king must place into keeping the templarate running).
I guess that I don't see the conflict between fluff and mechanics that you do. The 3e templar meshes fine with the 2e fluff from EAFW, as far as I can see. There might well be room for a note on how templars research new spells, however. I'd say that they do so with the approval/cooperation of their SK.
This is an interesting discussion but it seems to me to be getting over-long. Excuse my brevity - no snippiness intended here - I'm just getting a touch of thread fatigue ;)
When I mentioned the Myrmeleon, Xlorep had claimed that it was impossible to store any form of energy, and I showed him an official class that could store energy for later use.
Incorrect. I stated DIVINE SPELL ENERGY. You really need to stop with the fallacious arguments, and get a grip already. Stop putting words in my mouth, and stating I said things I did not.
I realized the limits of the class, but the fact remains that Athas.org does support the ability to sort arcane magic. If you can store arcane magic... we'll we are talking about a world in which you can suck power from a storm and halflings can shape tools from living beings. Storing divine energy isn't that far a leap if you are the one that shapes it into a spell in the first place. Read through before you comment on this please.
You can store limited amounts of Arcane energy. And you can store psionic energy (capacitors), but there's nothing on Divine magic for that. Guess what? It's a bit different from the others. *gasp*
The 3e Athas.org Templar does not memorize his spells from a list, instead taking a very limited number of spells, which he cannot change until he levels up again (and then only change one). He is a spontantous caster, something he wasn't in previous editions. Spontantous casting didn't exists at the time, which makes the decision to go beyond the a core facet of templar spellcasting odd. What is happening when the Templar calls for his magic?
The sorcerer-king acts as a conduit for the energy from the elemental planes. Now, we know that he can act as a choke point, closing off this power to anyone he feels like. In second edition, it was obvious that he also shaped the power as well. In third edition... well, the shaping comes into question.
You're going out on a limb again.
As you mentioned, the templars gain a link to their sorcerer-king when they grant the spell. The fact that they always can get the assigned spells (such as Hold Person, Greater Command, Detect Magic) makes sense. They need these spells to complete their work as templars. But what about the other spells on the spells known list.
They don't gain the link when the SM grants each spell. The link is already established. The SM can leave it on the back-burner sort of subconsciously handle the granting of the energy for the spells without putting any real thought into it, but also monitor for Templars grabbing more power. Plus, the SM can, through the link, observe any Templar on a whim that's tapping into that power, and see how that power is being used. Get a more intimate and specific detail as to what's going on - mainly to ensure that it's not being used for treachery against the SM. The SM does retain a good knowledge as to how much energy is being used, sort of how your Utility Company can tell you how much electricity and water you use, without necessarily being able to tell you what exactly you are using it for. And like your Utility Company, the SM can flip the switch, and turn off the access to that energy, stopping the Templar from being able to cast any spells.
Let's take Tritha the Templar as an example. Having just reached fourth level she gains Hold Person (her assaigned spell) and chooses Delay Poison as her only other known 2nd level spell. One day, she is attacked by a zombie. She call out to her Sorcerer-King, opening the Link and calls/begs for Return to the Earth, which is on the Templar Spell List but is not one of the spells she knows.
Here's the problem. If the sorcerer-king is able to shape the divine energy that flows from the planes to him to them, then we know he is able to grant her that spell. If he can grant any spell on the list, then he must be capable of shaping the magic himself. But instead, his Templars find themselves only able to call for certain spells.
If he is the one shaping the energy into the spell, than he is going to have to micromanage the spellcasting of all his templars. I also fail to see how he is going to remember (or care) what every single templar was cleared to cast. In the above example, Tritha was cleared for second level magic, and her master can grant the spell. If he could zap a Hold Person or Delay Poison to her the moment she asked, why not a spell of similar power.
There's that limb you're dangling from again. Want a rope?
If he shapes them all at once at a certain time and ships them out throughout the day, what happens when his spontaneous casting templars request a spell that he hasn't shaped enough of? He stops what he's doing and makes more as quickly as possible? No, he probably just lets them die and then pays to have a new one trained. Loyal follower down the tubes, but its their fault for not following the demand that the sorcerer-king expected.
As it said in the passage you quoted, Trithia can't have a conversation with him, just the call for the spell. In second edition, this meant that he could understand what she wanted (possibly because she put "notice" in earlier while memorizing) and grant it to her at the moment of casting. Now, he punishes her because she didn't have the foresight to pick a spell she was going to need in a situation down the road. Meanwhile, he sends Mulis, who did select that spell, Return to the Earth so that he can break down the corpses of some beggars who died overnight.
If you wanted to keep the idea of second edition and not introduce new interpretations, the templar would have been better represented as spellcaster who memorizes before hand, or altered it into something that more closely resembles the warmage (CA) or the Spirit Shaman (CD). With a memorizing templar, assigned spells would simply have been spells that you could spontaneously cast by sacrificing another spell of the appropriate (or higher level). Mechanically, the Templar no longer makes sense in this context.
Cannot use information or materials from CA or CD in the Dark Sun core rules. They are not OGL. The Sorcerer/spontaneous spellcaster style that was used, only reworked for Divine spellcasting, works rather well for the Templar. Yes, the Templar has a restricted, limited number of spells. But those are spells that the Templar themselves have been granted access to. A Templar wouldn't be asking for a spell that's not in that list which they can use. Even remotely using such an idea as a basis for your argument, is fundamentally flawed. Why is it flawed? Because such an argument could be used in other contexts that makes even less sense. such an argument could be used to remove the power limitations for Psions and Wilders, or even the spellbook limitations of Wizards. You are taking something completely out of the context of the mechanics of the rules, comparing it to the older, obviously flawed ruleset to prove your case, and then claiming that because of this, the current rulings must be discarded. So, take out that idea that a Templar would ask for a spell they have not been provided access to. Now, the Templar would only be asking for spells they know.
The Templar can cast any spell of a certian level, that they know, without needing to prepare ahead of time. Think of that as them asking for that specific spell at the time of casting. This provides flexibility. The Sorcerer-Monarch provides the spell that is called for at the time of casting, thus it is in the Sorcerer-Monarch's control. The Templar wouldn't ask for a spell they haven't been granted access to - that would be asking for something outside their privaledge. Each Templar is given the opportunity to plan ahead on that list, those that don't, and end up choosing badly, will end up dead. The blame is not the SM's, but the Templar's for being stupid, and for not learning to use what they have been granted. The SM's have no problem with another Templar being assigned to the ranks to replace the old one - after all, this is a harsh world, and there has to be some room for advancement in the Templarate's ranks. It's not like the money is dropped to start a new training cycle. People are always being trained and inducted into the Templar ranks. One Templar dies, people advance to fill the gap, and one of the prospective acolytes gets moved up to full Templar.
So, what is happening? It has been established that the Sorcerer-Kings do not understand the nature of the link or how it really works. They are the source of the power for the templars. When everything is considered, it is doubtful that the sorcerer-kings spend that much time questioning every spell that is requested from them. I am talking lower level spells, not epics, epic power they'll question. They have many mortal concerns to tend too, and aren't going to waste much of their time or something minor like a fist level character who wants a cantrip. Templars get their spells from first level, when they are doing fairly menial work for the City-State. If the King had to shape all the divine energy into spells, wouldn't he save the magic for servants who had proven more worthy of it, especially if he had to spend any effort on the action. He would be constantly bombarded with the need to form the spells and send them down the chute, and at times of war he'd be hearing almost everyone at once. Unlike the Spirits of the Land and Elemental Patrons, the sorcerer-kings have involved themselves fairly deeply in mortal affairs, and have many demands on their time and effort.
I'd say, that a Templar who starts asking for power that seems odd, asking for certian spells at questionable times, and rumors of treaon are spread, the SM will start to pay more attention to that specific Templar, and if that Templar has been "naughty", maybe he'll only get off with a quick death.
Instead of being a prestiege class, the templar is a core class, meaning the 1st level poop shoveling templar is still able to request his sanctuary spell when people try to steal his shovel.
Level 1 templars wouldn't be poop-shoveling :P. But while your point is made, it is, in the end, completely irrelevant. So what that a level-1 Templar can get spells. What does that have to do with them being able to be Advanced Beings?
So we have a 20 level core class which spontaneously casts, requesting their power from their living god. A god who, though he can shape the magic, grants specific spells to those that have the correct permits.
Precisely. So glad you can understand that basic principle.
This way seems a little shaky. If they've reached a point where they can be trusted with 2nd level power, why does the exact spell matter. What happens when a war occurs and they need more war templars? Do they have to fill out papers and forms to request the change of spells and have the King approve this and make the changes one by one? If you want to change a spell, do you have to make the request directly or fill out some paperwork of some kind? If you research a new spell (something all other classes, even spontaneous ones, can do in DnD) do you have to convince your monarch to spend his time learning how to shape the power for you?
Would you rather that they were Spontaneous spellcasters who have access to the full Templar spell list at each level? Umm, sorry, that seriously smacks of broken.
Or would you rather that they have to prepare their spells ahead of time? Ok, let's try that. Now you have a much more rigid, less fluid design for the class, and even more limiting, as the Templar has to pre-program for the correct spells beforehand, rather than just use a spell they have access to whenever they need. The flavor of the setting does tend to support sponteniety for Templars, not rigid preparation.
The way I see it, the Sorcerer-King is the conduit and choke point of this power, but not the shaper of it. Shaping the power into the correct spell would have to require some attention, and with the number of spells that a Sorcerer-King can grant per day, it would make more sense to save the magic for his higher level and most loyal followers. From the mechanics of the official Athas.org conversion, it makes more sense if the Templar is the one converting the raw energy that their sorcerer-king has granted into the spell.
There's that limb. Here, take a rope. Figure out what to do with it.
But seriously, it is an intriguing and rather unique view of things you have. Once again, it's not officially supported, you have made several interesting assumptions, and are reaching a bit too with your reasoning and logic. If you want it for your own Dark Sun, go for it. I personally have some things in my own Dark Sun campaigns that aren't officially supported. Don't consider it a slight against you. It's just you are asking for something that's almost as incredible as some ther claims people have made in the past (like an official Athasian Rhulisti supplement/book that was for Spelljammer that the person making the claim said he can't remember the name of the book).
Depending on his level, the Templar has proven himself to be worthy of a certain level of spells (ie 1st at first, 2nd at fourth, and so on). Once a sorcerer-king knows what the templar has earned, he is willing to dole out that amount of energy (represented by spells per level and day). The Sorcerer-king can feel when a templar requests a spell and how much energy they require. As a choke point, they can cut the templar off completely or decide that they're going to limit the amount he can have. As is mentioned in EAWF, he doesn't hear their voices, so it he wouldn't know the spell the templar is casting at that exact moment. If he was shaping the spell himself, he could probably hear the request in some way, shape or form. The king would be able to decide how much energy a given templar could take in total and at one time (limiting both spell level and spells per day). As long as the templar hasn't attracted undue attention, the king leaves it alone, takes no real notice of the call, and can probably check back later on if need be. If the templar is going to be cut off, the King makes the decision once, and doesn't have to worry about vetoing the power every single time the bad templar calls.
Or, once a Templar has proven himself worthy of new spells, he is given access to specific ones, to aid in his duties. He isn't given access to all the spells, as the SM's aren't known for simply granting full access to anything for anyone. The Templar is given the opportunity to pick what spells he feels he needs, or would be most benefitial in support of the SM. And the SM, being rather rigid in the way SM's are, sticks that to the Templar, forcing the Templar to live with the consequences. Of course, with 3.5e, there is the 4-level rule for spontaneous spellcasters. What's the 4-level rule? The one where every 4 levels, they can correct 1 spell in their list, changing it out for something more appropriate.
Every spell that the Templar casts, he requests from his SM. The SM grants the spell, and the necessary energy for it. the SM's have gotten so used to granting this action, that they've been able to no longer need to consciously/actively be aware of each individual, specific spell being cast, but can feel what energy is being used subconsciously. Don't think that the SM's would completely ignore what's going on though. They are always suspicious of treachery, and would be swift and brutal in their dealings of such things, to provide ample examples for the other Templars to remember and heed.
Being mortal, the templar mind can only hold a small number of "spell processes" (needed to shape the raw divine energy) in his mind at a given point. They're complex, so he trains until he knows them by heart, and has a hard time forgetting them. As he is trained, his is required to learn a certain spell for each level of power (his assigned spell), and the templarate offers a number of other "spell processes" to learn. These are represented by the spell list that the templar picks the spells he can know from. Shaping this raw, divine energy is more difficult than casting the spells memorized by wizards, and that is why they cannot choose new spells every day.
As an added bonus, the way this Templar allows him to research his own spells without the odd questions about the sorcerer-king's involvement. Yes, the templar would be punished severly if he is creating frivolous spells, but he would be punished for using them incorrectly too.
You now are reaching, and making a claim that a Templar researches/develops their spells akin to Wizards. Sorry, not gonna fly with me.
This also goes back to the way in which templars are not like the priests of other patrons, who lose their powers the moment they do something against their patrons interest. EAWF says that high templars are being supervised, which suggests that the Sorcerer-king does not have the same instant knowledge of their templar's actions (possibily even that they don't know exactly what spells they might be able to cast if you want to look at it that way). The corruption that has existed for centuries among all the templarates also helps in confirming this. It seems that Templars can cast spells until they are caught and reported to their King. Otherwise they would be caught the instant they took a bribe, and would be required to draw upon their lord's energy at the beginning and end of each shift to prove they have been loyal.
If you think that a Templar won't lose their power for going against their Monarch, you really need to cut back on the drugs. You are making it seem that the SM's are either very benevolent rulers, inattentive, or extraordinarily dumb. None of those are terms to describe the SM's. In fact, those are almost complete opposites of terms I'd use to define the SM's. Templars are not typical citizens. They have been granted certian political and supernatural authority to help govern the Sorcerer-Monarch's city. And every single one of them know that they are the most watched, and in the most precarious positions in the cities, which is the trade-off for their authority. The SM can check their actions, watch what they are doing, and keeps tabs on them - either directly, or indirectly through other members of the Templarate. The SM is an immortal, seemingly omnipotent being who can wield such powers that none of the Templars have seen anyone (other than, well, another SM) wield. Everyone in the city lives or dies at the SM's decree, and none moreso than a Templar. Templars are loyal to their master, not out of a sense of duty, but a matter of survival, for the most part - a Templar that crosses the line is just putting themselves in a precarious position to be used as an example to reinsure the loyalty of all other Templars.
On the side topic of epic spells, yes they would definitely be supervised. But, if by some chance a Templar was in a distant area and was able to convince his sorcerer-king that the energy for an epic spell was life or death for the Sorcerer-Kings interests, then (if it was an absolutely masterful trap) he could theoretically get the energy and do what he pleased with it. If he could become an advanced being that had learned to forcibly draw power energy from the elemental planes and other creatures (possible, considering the different way they might be utilizing their magic), then that first step would be the only time he would need his Sorcerer-kings permission. But this is just a side note. It assumes that becoming an advanced being requires a certain the ritual path for arcane casters, and that templars are the ones that shape their divine energy instead of getting the pre-shaped kind that other clerics do. Heck, if they could figure out a vessal to store the spell energy (The Myrmeleon prc proves that it is possible) they could even do it by requesting a certain number of spell levels over time and lying about what he was doing. Obviously, you'd need a very large vessal, but it could be possible to eventually collect enough to make a go without requesting the one big epic spell. Just like a dragon needs to collect life and an avangion needs to build that tomb thing. I realize that there is a difference between divine and arcane transformations, but the Athas.org Templar is already a different kind of caster from the other priests. If he is the one who shapes the energy, its his to deal with once he gets it.
You are under the impression that the range a Templar is from the Sorcerer-Monarch determines how much the Templar is being watched. Of course, personally, I give a range restriction to a Templar that limits how far they can be from "home" and still be able to draw power. Even so, you also are under the impression that the Templar shapes their own spells, which they don't. They are merely limited as to which spells they can request from the Monarch. For the freedom to ask for any spell at that level as long as they have spells per day left for that spell level, it's a pretty nice freedom they get.
Anyway, that's my take on the past fluff and the current mechanics. Perhaps someone could explain why the templar was made a spontaneous caster, when a memorizing caster able to spontaneously transform spells of the correct level into his assigned spells would have worked so much better with the past fluff.
Because the latter is overpowering, and the former made the most sense. To quote you "explained above". ad nausium
Please, point where my assumption is wrong and how the current mechanics support the "Sorcerer-King shapes the energy into spells" theory better. All you really have to explain is how the templar goes about researching spells and why the king shapes the divine energy into any spell on the templar list, but only gives it to specific people. I realize that spontaneous casting makes more sense with the way the fluff was presented, but the spells known list fricks everything up. If it's all about what job the templar is supposed to be doing, then they should not only have your basic assigned spell, but a set of "bureau" assigned spells. If the sorcerer-kings actually shape the spell before handing it over to the Templar, then the mechanics are either half-done or completely wrong.
Explained above.
This is all stuff that the different Bureaus must have gone over before when making the design decisions. I'd like to hear their explainations if possible. The Epic Bureau must have had a long discussion about each class with the correct Bureaus (and the Magic Bureau for that matter) before they began, so I'm hoping one of you two could explain the in-game reasoning for those design decisions. If you want to reference a document, I'd rather you keep to ones that you could expect me to see.
There's been no concrete ruling for Epic rules beyond what we are working on for Dragons and Advanced Beings in general. You are definitely asuming much here, and we are trying to provide some inight into the process. Instead, you seem to ignore the responses you've been given for the most part, and then claim that you haven't been given responses at all. This is tiring, as it more or less is the one real stupid question - the question where you refuse to listen to the answer.
Of course, if you want to refer to something that hasn't been released, I can give you my e-mail so that you can send what you've written and talked about up to this point to me. ;)
Can't do that, sorry. What's been released to the people, is available on the site. The rest of it is still being worked on. But I can guarentee that there will be no Templar Advanced Beings.
Other ex wife is a Model, She on the other hand was a seraglio slave
man now I do feel better Thanks Guys
My ex wife is a Lawyer (Templar in our day and Age). She thinks she IS an Advanced being hahahahahaha
thank you for lightening our mood a bit
I still say his original idea is pretty cool though, and may be using parts of it to explain Ur-Priest in athas..... as that is what he was creating in his version..... not templar advanced beings ..... but rather Ur-Priest advanced beings...... Which is a really cool idea.
:angelhide
It's just you are asking for something that's almost as incredible as some ther claims people have made in the past (like an official Athasian Rhulisti supplement/book that was for Spelljammer that the person making the claim said he can't remember the name of the book).
Now, let's be fair. Nothing is as incredible as TheWarOverlord's extended series of rants about his mythical DS books :D...
Yah, I liked the Ur-Priest interpretation. I am of the opinion that Templar do shape the magical energy that they are given. I mean they can create scrolls and store spells that way for later activation and the above arguments about SKs not granting specific spells but spell energy make sense. Still, they would have to learn how to grather spell energy without relying on an SK, which is why the Ur-Priest angle makes more sense.
heh on scrolls and item creation divine casters still expend the spell just like arcane casters when they make the item..... so if a templar is making a scroll he is still being granted the spell by the SK to scribe. So that really does not change wether the power comes as just spell energy or as a spell.
But to each his own in their games. I personally use the idea that the spells are "stamped" into the templars spirit (ie their spirit is broken in certain ways by the SK channelling power to them as they get higher level which is why they have set known spells for the spontainious casting) and the SK just fills the holes he made when they request the spells. It seems to fit the fluff and the rules in the best way.... and would explain why templars "request" their spells when they go to cast them..... they are specifying which holes in their spirit they want filled with the granted divine energy. This fits the old descriptions in the novels and other fluff the best using the official rules.
And I am probably going to have one of Kalak's old templars be working on the Ur-Priest idea from this in my next campaign...... Even though my next campaign will actually be using my new d20 modern dark sun conversion and not athas.orgs work. (I actually have it mostly completed..... just masaging the mutation rules to balance the races and the final advanced classes.)
Now, let's be fair. Nothing is as incredible as TheWarOverlord's extended series of rants about his mythical DS books :D...
True. But I felt one overexaggeration diserved (sic) another.
1st-Everyone rolls initiative.
2nd-They take turns doing everything they are going to do for the round including moving and attacking.
These actions are taken sequentially and completely seperately, there is no reacting to what someone else is doing during their turn. You can kind of get around some of these issues if you allow a more free-form use of the 'hold your action' rules, but just try imagining whats going on. Hard isn't it.
Here is a senario that came up recently in a BS game.
I had a character that had a base move of 120 ft, an insane jump bonus, and the ability to take extra move actions by activating swift psionic actions.
The character I was fighting could Fly at a speed of 120ft and it was instant death if he got ahold of me.
We were in a completely empty featureless room (don't ask) 100 by 100 by 100. Despite the fact that I could move a greater distance then my enemy in one round (given my ability to take extra move actions) according to the rules couldn't get away from him for even one round. I would move some where in the room while he stood frozen waiting and then he would get his move. So because of the size of the room he could always get to me in one move action then attack.
The moral of the story is. THE RULES ARE MERELY GUIDLINES! They cannot and willnot simulate relistic situations unless you are willing to ignore them when necessary.
BTW: that entire night was a complete waste of my time