World Building vs. Game Building [Archive] - Wizards Community

World Building vs. Game Building [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sbwilson
02-20-08, 01:37 AM I'm hoping you folks can give me your thoughts on this issue: Since I don't have much opportunity to actually play the game much, I spend most of my Mystara-time doing "world building" that, in all honesty, has pretty close to zero application in an actual gaming session. For example, my latest project/entertainment is doing a faux-scholarly study on the Song of Halav (http://www.geocities.com/sb.wilson/Halav/index.html) (still a work in progress - I hope to write out full narratives for each section). As with a lot of my Mystara stuff, it doesn't really have much place in a game, but I find it an incredibly fun creative outlet. I do it for myself and not necessarily for others.

So my question is this: How much time do you all spend on unnecessary world building and how much on things you can actually use in a gaming session?

As evidenced by the amount of material at the Vaults, Mystara lends itself well to the world builder in many people. But how much actually gets used?
Twin Campaigns
02-20-08, 03:12 AM Most of the time I write stuff that is inteded for direct application in games, as I have a long continuous campaign, and for the last three years I had a regular weekly campaign, both in Mystara. But over the years I have done a lot of work mainly with tinkering with the history of the world in order to make it fit with the campaign-specific stuff. A lot of that is not meant to be directly applicable, but it is linked to practical DM concerns - to keep myself consistent and coherent in the handouts I write etc. I would have to say that I never really engage in world-building for its own sake.

Well, perhaps the only exceptions are the times when I get all worked up to transcribe something for the Vaults, but nearly all of that stuff also is based on the aforementioned material.

On the other hand: I have used a huge amount of material from the Vaults and the boards, some of which has been clearly written primarily as an exercise in world-building. (Well you can never tell, but sometimes the writer has mentioned this in discussions.) So at least as far as I am concerned: a lot of stuff gets used, and our group is very grateful of the existence of this community.
Agathokles
02-20-08, 04:41 AM I think it mostly depends on how much one is actually playing the game -- when I'm not actively playing, I have time to work on aspects of the world that are not directly related to the campaign. OTOH, my most recent articles, while apparently world-building oriented, are really campaign building -- I've started a new campaign in Karameikos, thus the timeline is an expanded version of the handout I gave to the players, the goblinoid tribes article is background analysis for staging a couple of goblinoid-bashing adventures, as well as background for goblinoid PCs, and the societies and religions articles derive from the campaign theme (interfering with an Iron Ring slave traffic to Jaibul), as well as giving more background for Specularum.

That said, I would not agree that, e.g., your Song of Halav work would have no game application. First, the Song of Halav is a central piece of information for Traladaran Clerics. Second, the layout of your work suggests several dungeon opportunities (Kelvin, Quasqueton, Threshold, B5, HtH).
Thus, it would make a major campaign out of a number of adventure hooks (Kelvin) and not really fitting modules (B1, B5).
Hugin
02-20-08, 10:02 AM That said, I would not agree that, e.g., your Song of Halav work would have no game application.
Absolutely! Though, I don't imagine that any world-building project would have no potential for campaign application. Unfortunately for me I had to stop the game I was running due to time issues. Like I told the group, I could designate time for a session every week or so but I can't commit time to creating and running one. :(

I'm being drawn back into one of my favourite aspects of Mystara and that is its rich history. I don't know if anything will come of it but I enjoy exploring it and its fantastic interconnections and possibilities. I've also been meddling with a working simplified economy (what can I say, I work in the financial industry) with MS excel and it's coming along very well.

So I guess right now I would be in the world-building camp.
Cthulhudrew
02-20-08, 10:14 PM So my question is this: How much time do you all spend on unnecessary world building and how much on things you can actually use in a gaming session?

Heh, like you, I primarily do world building. In fact, I'd say pretty much everything I've done for Mystara since the mid 90s has been solely world building. Haven't played regularly in Mystara (or at all, much) since then.
Twin Campaigns
02-21-08, 02:45 AM Just to agree on what has been said: your project on the Song of Halav
seems very important indeed. I would most certainly find in-game use for
it.
CmdrCorsiken
02-21-08, 07:50 PM My 'Mystara time' is split fairly evenly between world- and game-building. Of course, when I'm not actually running, more world-building gets done. During a campaign, that swings back to more game-building. It all averages out in the end.

I must be one of blessed few who have time play consistently. I'm part of two groups who meet every other week; about half the players are in both groups. One group is currently playing in a buddy's Greyhawk campaign, but the other group is playing in one of my Mystara campaigns.

You'd be surprised what background, 'world' details can be brought into an actual game. The challenge is presenting that information is small chunks. Players might not be particularly interested in hearing the entire Song, but, it's possible that an allied NPC cleric may use a few lines from it as clues to help the PCs without revealing to enemy spies that he's helping.

Regardless, as a DM, I'd love to read what you come up with on the subject.
sbwilson
02-23-08, 02:37 AM ...I would not agree that, e.g., your Song of Halav work would have no game application.

I guess I should clarify what I meant. A lot of the changes made to the adventures happened a long time ago while I was actually running a game (go figure) and therefore I agree that it falls under "game-building" and has it's uses. However, what I was really thinking of is the "form" in which I am currently presenting that material. I really can't imagine the players coming across an anthropological study of the Song of Halav in-game. It is just a fun way for me to deliver some old material and attempt to tie-in and write down some random ideas that have been bouncing around in my head.

You'd be surprised what background, 'world' details can be brought into an actual game. The challenge is presenting that information is small chunks.

You have just nailed my biggest problem as a DM, and one of the reasons I started this thread. Even though I do my world-building mainly for myself, I find it hard not to dump it all on my players when it does come up in a game. Not because it is necessary, but because I think it is neat and forget that my players don't already have a huge Mystara background knowledge to work with...and thus miss out on all the little connections that I find facinating. Ah well, it's one of my struggles. At least at this point in my gaming life, I realize that and have taken steps to correct it (although it is still amazingly hard for me not to give my players a proverbial drink from the fire hose).
JohnBiles
02-23-08, 02:41 AM I find the world building stuff pretty useful for my gaming. The PCs in my current Mystara game are in the middle of questing for immortality and they just finished some adventuring in Davania to get an artifact they needed. (Well, recently finished. they just finished destroying the basis of the Divinarchy of Yav's society by stealing the Time Travel artifact... :))
CmdrCorsiken
02-23-08, 03:09 PM You have just nailed my biggest problem as a DM, . . . I find it hard not to dump it all on my players when it does come up in a game. Not because it is necessary, but because I think it is neat and forget that my players don't already have a huge Mystara background knowledge to work with...and thus miss out on all the little connections that I find facinating.

You have found a great expression of a key point to consider everytime you get the opportunity to present Mystaran background details to your players. To just unload for 10 minutes about some topic, however interesting to you, easily puts the game on hold (and frequently bores the players). Among my two gaming groups, I am the only one who owns (or has really even read) any Mystara products. One of my players is an expert on Greyhawk and Dragonlance; another has created a detailed setting entirely his own. So, they, even after all of these players have played at least one Mystaran campaign with me, their knowledge is still basic.

This, really, is how it should be. In any game setting, there are details that the players (and characters) should never know. This is one of those aspects of Game Mastering that can be both a blessing and a curse.

Ah well, it's one of my struggles. At least at this point in my gaming life, I realize that and have taken steps to correct it (although it is still amazingly hard for me not to give my players a proverbial drink from the fire hose).

You are not alone in this struggle. With the wealth of detailed Mystaran information at our disposal, it's easy to get into an instructor mode when the players only need a sentence or two before moving on. As you have surely experienced, we get so much enjoyment from the rich detail and full history of Mystara, we have a hard time supressing our urge to passionately share that enjoyment with fellow gamers. (Isn't that the purpose of these forums?)

One technique I've used in my own games is to make the discovery of some of that information the goal of an adventure (or even a campaign). This way, the players have not only a vested interest in discovering it, but also a reward for getting it. Plus, you get an appropriate, in-game reason to share some that wonderful Mystaran history and background -- everyone wins!
Khuzd
02-29-08, 11:18 AM One technique I've used in my own games is to make the discovery of some of that information the goal of an adventure (or even a campaign).

Good idea. Let's imagine a Glantrian group of adventurers whose goal is to explore the religious organizations around the world. They travel, ask people, know about Inmortal, churches... Of course, they report their information to the Glantrian anti-religious government.

This would be a good technique to make them explore countries and ask about temples, churches, history, Inmortal plots...
Khuzd
02-29-08, 11:32 AM How much time do you all spend on unnecessary world building and how much on things you can actually use in a gaming session?

I've been 9 years without playing D&D (or RPGs). I'm now trying to start a campaign with brand new players. We can play only once a month. With Pandius and Gazzeeters and BECMI rules I should have no need to develope more Mystara stuff.

But...

Last month I found myself writing OD&D statistics for great mammals. I thought: "ey, Davania is a great place to put many prehistoric cats, and wolves, and bears, and Andrewsarchus, and whoolly rhinoceros...".

I don't know when nor how my players (currently dungeoneering in the Ethengarian-Glantrian-Hobgobland border) could arrive to Davania. But I had great fun reading in Internet about great Cuaternarian mammals and giving them habitat and stats.

[Unfortunately, I wrote it in Spanish; may be I will translate it some day, and if anybody corrects my bad English it could go to Pandius if found of interest].

I also thought about dragon history. May be "metal dragons" (adopted from AD&D) could be native and frequent in Skothar; the "gem dragons", in Davania; and the classical chromatic dragons in Brun.

Writing about their relationships and history and how some of them went from a continent to another could be interesting but... well, when heroes find dragons they don't talk about dragon history, they kill them. And if they find good, lawful dragons, players get bored: "this lizard is bigger and prouder than me and I can not even take his treasure, and it's boring me with dragon history lessons".
JTrithen
03-06-08, 03:26 AM I guess the trick here, then, when the PCs meet a gold/lawful (generally "good") dragon, is for that dragon to:

A) dismiss them
B) entertain, enlighten, and play patron/host to them to very little or large degree
C) threaten, fight them, or defend himself against them if they attack (or, if need be, leave/retreat... similar to A, above)

Obviously, B endears itself the most to "exposition" and "dragon history lessons," as Khuzd indicated.

But, it seems even "A" could lend itself to a hint or two that the players might find interesting or could just ignore (leaving it up to them). He could say "when the Rainbow Bridge comes again, we may meet once again...." How about "When the claw of Raxes is at my feet, then will I speak," after which the gold quickly retreats (through magic, flight, etc.) because he cannot be "bothered" by these petty adventurers unless they prove their metal. (Raxes could be a red dragon enemy of the gold dragon.) This should at least intrigue the characters, hopefully. If they don't pursue or investigate such information right away, they will probably at least remember it to a degree, or it will stick in their minds a little; especially if you drop another related hint a couple of game sessions later.

Option C would be the hardest to implement "world-building" material into. Most TV shows and movies, of course, sometime insert needed exposition broken up into 1-liners, during fights between characters, that probably usually have to do more with character backgrounds, personalities, and motivations, rather then world history, but obviously character development can be tied to world-building, culture, legends, etc., too.

I am not an expert but am mostly thinking out loud, here, since I'd like to be a better DM. I've had decades of experience, but in my opinion am still not that great. I LOVE the world-building aspect, and lurking these forums for this reason, to a great degree. So I am usually VERY guilty of wanting to drop too much backstory and information on my players in a heavy-handed way, but don't get to, because they don't care. I need more practice in divvying it out in smaller, interesting chunks (especially through more interesting PCs that are not too obvious "DM mouths" and typecast).

Thanks for letting me rant and express some ideas here. : )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sbwilson 02-20-08, 01:37 AM	I'm hoping you folks can give me your thoughts on this issue: Since I don't have much opportunity to actually play the game much, I spend most of my Mystara-time doing "world building" that, in all honesty, has pretty close to zero application in an actual gaming session. For example, my latest project/entertainment is doing a faux-scholarly study on the Song of Halav (http://www.geocities.com/sb.wilson/Halav/index.html) (still a work in progress - I hope to write out full narratives for each section). As with a lot of my Mystara stuff, it doesn't really have much place in a game, but I find it an incredibly fun creative outlet. I do it for myself and not necessarily for others. So my question is this: How much time do you all spend on unnecessary world building and how much on things you can actually use in a gaming session? As evidenced by the amount of material at the Vaults, Mystara lends itself well to the world builder in many people. But how much actually gets used?
Twin Campaigns 02-20-08, 03:12 AM	Most of the time I write stuff that is inteded for direct application in games, as I have a long continuous campaign, and for the last three years I had a regular weekly campaign, both in Mystara. But over the years I have done a lot of work mainly with tinkering with the history of the world in order to make it fit with the campaign-specific stuff. A lot of that is not meant to be directly applicable, but it is linked to practical DM concerns - to keep myself consistent and coherent in the handouts I write etc. I would have to say that I never really engage in world-building for its own sake. Well, perhaps the only exceptions are the times when I get all worked up to transcribe something for the Vaults, but nearly all of that stuff also is based on the aforementioned material. On the other hand: I have used a huge amount of material from the Vaults and the boards, some of which has been clearly written primarily as an exercise in world-building. (Well you can never tell, but sometimes the writer has mentioned this in discussions.) So at least as far as I am concerned: a lot of stuff gets used, and our group is very grateful of the existence of this community.
Agathokles 02-20-08, 04:41 AM	I think it mostly depends on how much one is actually playing the game -- when I'm not actively playing, I have time to work on aspects of the world that are not directly related to the campaign. OTOH, my most recent articles, while apparently world-building oriented, are really campaign building -- I've started a new campaign in Karameikos, thus the timeline is an expanded version of the handout I gave to the players, the goblinoid tribes article is background analysis for staging a couple of goblinoid-bashing adventures, as well as background for goblinoid PCs, and the societies and religions articles derive from the campaign theme (interfering with an Iron Ring slave traffic to Jaibul), as well as giving more background for Specularum. That said, I would not agree that, e.g., your Song of Halav work would have no game application. First, the Song of Halav is a central piece of information for Traladaran Clerics. Second, the layout of your work suggests several dungeon opportunities (Kelvin, Quasqueton, Threshold, B5, HtH). Thus, it would make a major campaign out of a number of adventure hooks (Kelvin) and not really fitting modules (B1, B5).
Hugin 02-20-08, 10:02 AM	That said, I would not agree that, e.g., your Song of Halav work would have no game application. Absolutely! Though, I don't imagine that any world-building project would have no potential for campaign application. Unfortunately for me I had to stop the game I was running due to time issues. Like I told the group, I could designate time for a session every week or so but I can't commit time to creating and running one. :( I'm being drawn back into one of my favourite aspects of Mystara and that is its rich history. I don't know if anything will come of it but I enjoy exploring it and its fantastic interconnections and possibilities. I've also been meddling with a working simplified economy (what can I say, I work in the financial industry) with MS excel and it's coming along very well. So I guess right now I would be in the world-building camp.
Cthulhudrew 02-20-08, 10:14 PM	So my question is this: How much time do you all spend on unnecessary world building and how much on things you can actually use in a gaming session? Heh, like you, I primarily do world building. In fact, I'd say pretty much everything I've done for Mystara since the mid 90s has been solely world building. Haven't played regularly in Mystara (or at all, much) since then.
Twin Campaigns 02-21-08, 02:45 AM	Just to agree on what has been said: your project on the Song of Halav seems very important indeed. I would most certainly find in-game use for it.
CmdrCorsiken 02-21-08, 07:50 PM	My 'Mystara time' is split fairly evenly between world- and game-building. Of course, when I'm not actually running, more world-building gets done. During a campaign, that swings back to more game-building. It all averages out in the end. I must be one of blessed few who have time play consistently. I'm part of two groups who meet every other week; about half the players are in both groups. One group is currently playing in a buddy's Greyhawk campaign, but the other group is playing in one of my Mystara campaigns. You'd be surprised what background, 'world' details can be brought into an actual game. The challenge is presenting that information is small chunks. Players might not be particularly interested in hearing the entire Song, but, it's possible that an allied NPC cleric may use a few lines from it as clues to help the PCs without revealing to enemy spies that he's helping. Regardless, as a DM, I'd love to read what you come up with on the subject.
sbwilson 02-23-08, 02:37 AM	...I would not agree that, e.g., your Song of Halav work would have no game application. I guess I should clarify what I meant. A lot of the changes made to the adventures happened a long time ago while I was actually running a game (go figure) and therefore I agree that it falls under "game-building" and has it's uses. However, what I was really thinking of is the "form" in which I am currently presenting that material. I really can't imagine the players coming across an anthropological study of the Song of Halav in-game. It is just a fun way for me to deliver some old material and attempt to tie-in and write down some random ideas that have been bouncing around in my head. You'd be surprised what background, 'world' details can be brought into an actual game. The challenge is presenting that information is small chunks. You have just nailed my biggest problem as a DM, and one of the reasons I started this thread. Even though I do my world-building mainly for myself, I find it hard not to dump it all on my players when it does come up in a game. Not because it is necessary, but because I think it is neat and forget that my players don't already have a huge Mystara background knowledge to work with...and thus miss out on all the little connections that I find facinating. Ah well, it's one of my struggles. At least at this point in my gaming life, I realize that and have taken steps to correct it (although it is still amazingly hard for me not to give my players a proverbial drink from the fire hose).
JohnBiles 02-23-08, 02:41 AM	I find the world building stuff pretty useful for my gaming. The PCs in my current Mystara game are in the middle of questing for immortality and they just finished some adventuring in Davania to get an artifact they needed. (Well, recently finished. they just finished destroying the basis of the Divinarchy of Yav's society by stealing the Time Travel artifact... :))
CmdrCorsiken 02-23-08, 03:09 PM	You have just nailed my biggest problem as a DM, . . . I find it hard not to dump it all on my players when it does come up in a game. Not because it is necessary, but because I think it is neat and forget that my players don't already have a huge Mystara background knowledge to work with...and thus miss out on all the little connections that I find facinating. You have found a great expression of a key point to consider everytime you get the opportunity to present Mystaran background details to your players. To just unload for 10 minutes about some topic, however interesting to you, easily puts the game on hold (and frequently bores the players). Among my two gaming groups, I am the only one who owns (or has really even read) any Mystara products. One of my players is an expert on Greyhawk and Dragonlance; another has created a detailed setting entirely his own. So, they, even after all of these players have played at least one Mystaran campaign with me, their knowledge is still basic. This, really, is how it should be. In any game setting, there are details that the players (and characters) should never know. This is one of those aspects of Game Mastering that can be both a blessing and a curse. Ah well, it's one of my struggles. At least at this point in my gaming life, I realize that and have taken steps to correct it (although it is still amazingly hard for me not to give my players a proverbial drink from the fire hose). You are not alone in this struggle. With the wealth of detailed Mystaran information at our disposal, it's easy to get into an instructor mode when the players only need a sentence or two before moving on. As you have surely experienced, we get so much enjoyment from the rich detail and full history of Mystara, we have a hard time supressing our urge to passionately share that enjoyment with fellow gamers. (Isn't that the purpose of these forums?) One technique I've used in my own games is to make the discovery of some of that information the goal of an adventure (or even a campaign). This way, the players have not only a vested interest in discovering it, but also a reward for getting it. Plus, you get an appropriate, in-game reason to share some that wonderful Mystaran history and background -- everyone wins!
Khuzd 02-29-08, 11:18 AM	One technique I've used in my own games is to make the discovery of some of that information the goal of an adventure (or even a campaign). Good idea. Let's imagine a Glantrian group of adventurers whose goal is to explore the religious organizations around the world. They travel, ask people, know about Inmortal, churches... Of course, they report their information to the Glantrian anti-religious government. This would be a good technique to make them explore countries and ask about temples, churches, history, Inmortal plots...
Khuzd 02-29-08, 11:32 AM	How much time do you all spend on unnecessary world building and how much on things you can actually use in a gaming session? I've been 9 years without playing D&D (or RPGs). I'm now trying to start a campaign with brand new players. We can play only once a month. With Pandius and Gazzeeters and BECMI rules I should have no need to develope more Mystara stuff. But... Last month I found myself writing OD&D statistics for great mammals. I thought: "ey, Davania is a great place to put many prehistoric cats, and wolves, and bears, and Andrewsarchus, and whoolly rhinoceros...". I don't know when nor how my players (currently dungeoneering in the Ethengarian-Glantrian-Hobgobland border) could arrive to Davania. But I had great fun reading in Internet about great Cuaternarian mammals and giving them habitat and stats. [Unfortunately, I wrote it in Spanish; may be I will translate it some day, and if anybody corrects my bad English it could go to Pandius if found of interest]. I also thought about dragon history. May be "metal dragons" (adopted from AD&D) could be native and frequent in Skothar; the "gem dragons", in Davania; and the classical chromatic dragons in Brun. Writing about their relationships and history and how some of them went from a continent to another could be interesting but... well, when heroes find dragons they don't talk about dragon history, they kill them. And if they find good, lawful dragons, players get bored: "this lizard is bigger and prouder than me and I can not even take his treasure, and it's boring me with dragon history lessons".
JTrithen 03-06-08, 03:26 AM	I guess the trick here, then, when the PCs meet a gold/lawful (generally "good") dragon, is for that dragon to: A) dismiss them B) entertain, enlighten, and play patron/host to them to very little or large degree C) threaten, fight them, or defend himself against them if they attack (or, if need be, leave/retreat... similar to A, above) Obviously, B endears itself the most to "exposition" and "dragon history lessons," as Khuzd indicated. But, it seems even "A" could lend itself to a hint or two that the players might find interesting or could just ignore (leaving it up to them). He could say "when the Rainbow Bridge comes again, we may meet once again...." How about "When the claw of Raxes is at my feet, then will I speak," after which the gold quickly retreats (through magic, flight, etc.) because he cannot be "bothered" by these petty adventurers unless they prove their metal. (Raxes could be a red dragon enemy of the gold dragon.) This should at least intrigue the characters, hopefully. If they don't pursue or investigate such information right away, they will probably at least remember it to a degree, or it will stick in their minds a little; especially if you drop another related hint a couple of game sessions later. Option C would be the hardest to implement "world-building" material into. Most TV shows and movies, of course, sometime insert needed exposition broken up into 1-liners, during fights between characters, that probably usually have to do more with character backgrounds, personalities, and motivations, rather then world history, but obviously character development can be tied to world-building, culture, legends, etc., too. I am not an expert but am mostly thinking out loud, here, since I'd like to be a better DM. I've had decades of experience, but in my opinion am still not that great. I LOVE the world-building aspect, and lurking these forums for this reason, to a great degree. So I am usually VERY guilty of wanting to drop too much backstory and information on my players in a heavy-handed way, but don't get to, because they don't care. I need more practice in divvying it out in smaller, interesting chunks (especially through more interesting PCs that are not too obvious "DM mouths" and typecast). Thanks for letting me rant and express some ideas here. : )