The second is: will dragonlance become big in general? All the people in my area haven't even heard of them, they just go on about LOTR when it comes to fantasy. (admitedly, it is the best)
The current material being released by Sovereign Press is new, and uses the most recent version of the D&D 3rd edition rules, but it follows on the heels of two decades of game materials and novels.
Cheers,
Cam
And so on and so forth.
Plus, Dragonlance novels have set a precedent that many other worlds now follow.
So I think DL has had its impact already, and will continue to be a force within the RPG world.
I just don't think that it has been given the consideration that the other campaign worlds are receiving (FR...
FR is receiving consideration? That's funny. I see FR fans complaining about lack of attention to it all of the time.
It almost seems that wizards could care less about such a rich and full world as the DragonLance setting.
They cared enough to let Sovereign handle it. Which I happen to think is the best decision they have ever made.
FR is receiving consideration? That's funny. I see FR fans complaining about lack of attention to it all of the time.
Probably a point of view thing, which I am willing to admit. I just see a lot less things coming out for DragonLance than I do for the other two major realms.
They cared enough to let Sovereign handle it. Which I happen to think is the best decision they have ever made.
I would like to know why you feel that this was the best decision that the ahve ever made. I realize that the decision far outways "let's just scrap it" which appeared to be their alternative, but I would love to know why you believe it was the best route to take. I am not bashing you at all, I am glad they did let someone else pick up the torch, I just want to understand your argument more.
I am glad that they at least agreed to let Sovereign Press take over the proverbial reins of the world, and deliver gaming goodness to the public. As it's been said, DL's effect on D&D has had ripple-like effects on all the other gaming worlds in the Wizard's line, in part due to the many things that make this gaming world so endearing to it's fans. Kender, tinker gnomes, and so much more. May DL last for many years to come.
Probably a point of view thing, which I am willing to admit. I just see a lot less things coming out for DragonLance than I do for the other two major realms.
I think that's due mostly to the fact that Sovereign Press has a fraction of a fraction of WotC's resources at their disposal, so they are more hard-pressed to produce as many gaming materials for DL than WotC is for FR or Eberron.
I would like to know why you feel that this was the best decision that the ahve ever made.
Simply because the quality of Sovereign Press products has been outstanding and far far better than I could have possibly hoped for. Nothing more, nothing less.
Simply because the quality of Sovereign Press products has been outstanding and far far better than I could have possibly hoped for. Nothing more, nothing less.
I would aggree that their quality is pretty good. And thank you for not trashing my rediculously poor typing ability in that last post! :D
I'd much rather see DL produced by a 3rd party that can spend the time and effort on the world that would not occur if DL were still under WotC's umbrella of products. It's almost always better to have experts working on something than generalists...
Ummm, wow.
Margaret Weis name is on every dragonlance game book put out from SP (except the Age of Mortals campaign), and I don't think you're going to get much more expert than that.... :whatsthisUmmm, wow.
A few with Tracy Hickman's name on it too. :D
Suddenly, I feel like playing through a full-blown version of the Lyceum...
Ummm, wow.
Uhhh, that was my whole point.
(It's better to have SP making DL than WotC making DL, if you still missed it)
They cared enough to let Sovereign handle it. Which I happen to think is the best decision they have ever made.
I think that answer lies in the fact that soverign is weis and hickman and that DL is their baby.
This is my POV.
- Dragonlance was one of the main settings supported by TSR.
- Even that it was not a "standard" setting and many game books had contradictions, it kept being popular thanks to its difference from other settings and the novels (which i personally liked more than most FR novels)
- When WotC bought TSR, they tried to convert dice based RPG's to a card based system. (Back then WotC strength was card games like MAGIC, so this is the logic i found).
- They took a strong setting to be first: Dragonlance.
- SAGA system is created. Fans had divided opinions, some embraced the system others completely ignored it.
- As a result sales were low, and it was considered a failure.
- 3e comes out. They discarded most settings and kept Grayhawk (tradition perhaps) and Forgotten Reamls (best selling?)
We all know what happened then, thanks to the fans DL was kept alive and it could not be ignored and WotC printed DLCS
I´m glad to see SP is now in charge and DL won´t be dropped again (i hope)
but we should be a bit more critic on them:
- The printing, art and design of the SP books is not as good as those books by WotC (don't get me wrong, but honestly it could be better).
- Thier early books don't make any use of new D&D material and it seems to be a limitation for NPC creation (take a look and the dragon overlords!)
- Also, some of the new stuff is contradictory to previous one this is an old mistake (like taking back that Sky is native to Krynn and making him an alien)
Anyway, I'm sure SP is learning from their mistakes and i'm happy to see new material coming, so keep the good work!
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think one of the things that continues to make DL so popular is the fact that it has such a strong novel base. No other setting can even come close in comparison.
IMO, DL is probably stronger now than it's ever been. It's a big fish in a small pond rather than the other way around. And that's usually a good thing.
No other setting can even come close in comparison.
Ahem. Only if I'm blind to Forgotten Realms, which I'm not.
What can I say? I like both FR and DL (not necessarily in that order). :P
I was one that loved SAGA, as it freed one from class restrictions. It was the first system that truly allowed you to be and do whatever you wanted. My only problem was the fixed damage for weapons and no dice?!?!? DL has always been my favorite setting for gaming and reading, and with the advent of 3rd Ed the world has only gotten better (it would be truly awesome if the sorcerer was fixed, but hey I'll take what I can get).
The Designers of FR, to me least, seem like they have an inferiority complex and have to make all their heroes uber mega powerful in stats and levels.
Thank you. Someone else who sees that, and not just me.
Ahem. Only if I'm blind to Forgotten Realms, which I'm not.
That's a stretch.
- First of all, as to Dragonlance having been around for longer than Eberron and FR put together? Not at all. FR has been in existence (if not as a D&D setting) since the 60's. Ed Greenwood designed it as a world that was a setting for stories and novels, and only later sold it to Gary Gygax.
- The great majority of the -really- over the top, overly powerful stuff wasn't at all designed with Greenwood's intent. He originally statted Elminster, pretty much known as the-then Most Powerful Mage Ever as a 17th level wizard (on par with The Biggies of Dragonlance during 1E). Only during the middle of 2E (when Gygax lost control of TSR, and Ed Greenwood lost a great deal of control of his own setting!) did the power scale get amped up rapidly. And in 3E, it's gone even more out of control.
So, that being said, the primary problem is this: FR has not developed much as its creator has intended. He still plays 2E rules with much of the 1E world intact, and none of the original adventurers of his setting (The Knights of Myth Drannor) are near 20th level, despite decades of play.
And also: Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman have ALWAYS had a certain love of strange cards, as evidenced in the Vistani Ravenloft product they wrote, dealing with a deck of Tarot cards.
That being said, Dragonlance 2E is still my favorite setting. Well, after Planescape, I mean. ;)
Mind you, I like Dragonlance first of all, and this is my first time posting here, but I had to clear up a few misconceptions:
- First of all, as to Dragonlance having been around for longer than Eberron and FR put together? Not at all. FR has been in existence (if not as a D&D setting) since the 60's. Ed Greenwood designed it as a world that was a setting for stories and novels, and only later sold it to Gary Gygax.
Given, in Ed Greenwood's head and stories, FR is older, but gamewise and D&D-wise, DL is older than both FR and EB put together. As a game, FR came out in 1986-87 or sometime around there. I'm recalling this because I started collecting comic books that year and recently started rereading some of them and chuckled when I saw advertisements for the "new" campaign setting of Forgotten Realms. DL campaign started in 1984.
Mind you, I like Dragonlance first of all, and this is my first time posting here, but I had to clear up a few misconceptions:
No offense, but I feel the need to clear up more misconceptions. :D
Edited: FR/DL byplay since Valharic beat me to it. Cam's statement made sense to me, at least for the next 6 months when time catches up with Eberron and FR.
Regarding the "strange cards", Margaret hasn't (to my knowledge) done anything with Ravenloft. That was Laura Hickman, who co-wrote the Ravenloft module (among other things).
Mind you, I like Dragonlance first of all, and this is my first time posting here, but I had to clear up a few misconceptions:
And also: Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman have ALWAYS had a certain love of strange cards, as evidenced in the Vistani Ravenloft product they wrote, dealing with a deck of Tarot cards.
That being said, Dragonlance 2E is still my favorite setting. Well, after Planescape, I mean. ;)
Weis didn't have anything to do with Ravenloft. Tracy and Laura Hickman, on the other hand, created the first Ravenloft module, now a classic. Pen & Paper is a pretty resourceful website and if you look up the aforementioned authors you will note what I stated above.
It's also no so strange of a thing to have the Gypsy's and Tarot cards in that setting. It was a gothic horror setting moreso than a fantasy setting and if you look back to classic novels like Bram Stoker's Dracula these elements are there. The Tarot deck was a prop and the cards were very much stacked when running the module. Props are also fun! I don't know how many times I've hand a roled up piece of paper as a scroll or letter to the PC's, among other things.
- The printing, art and design of the SP books is not as good as those books by WotC (don't get me wrong, but honestly it could be better).
WotC has a lot more money and resources too.
I will partially disagree with you on the art, as I think Sovereign Press has some of the best talent out there, such as Jennifer Meyer and Jason Engle. Some of the earlier SP books weren't as good on the art, but they keep getting better.
WotC's books, on the other hand, seem to not have the same quality of art as they used to. Maybe it's just the style or something, but I'd take Jennifer Meyer or Jason Engle over any WotC artist any day.
Anyway, I'm sure SP is learning from their mistakes and i'm happy to see new material coming, so keep the good work!
SP is trying to improve all the time, and it shows. They've got some great talent working with them, all of whom care very much for their craft and work to get better.
Mind you, I like Dragonlance first of all, and this is my first time posting here, but I had to clear up a few misconceptions:
- First of all, as to Dragonlance having been around for longer than Eberron and FR put together? Not at all. FR has been in existence (if not as a D&D setting) since the 60's. Ed Greenwood designed it as a world that was a setting for stories and novels, and only later sold it to Gary Gygax.
Only the Good Lord knows how long DL was boucing around Tracy Hickman's head before he actually set it down on paper shortly after arriving at TSR. So let's just deal with difinitives here.
The FR setting is and was originally a loose collection of forgotten modules and adventures run by Greenwood and crew that were finally alagmated into a single setting. That might have been the intent all along but until TSR got into it there was no Toril just a bunch of loosely connected modules and stories bouncing around peoples heads.
DL was designed from the ground up to be what it is, an epic storytelling world.
Both worlds have their respective differences and tastes. That's what's so great about DnD! You can have a multitude of different settings using the same basic system and get so many different results based of minor tweakings. God bless TSR, SP, and maybe WotC.
FR is Okay if you really don't care about the story aspect of roleplaying. Granted in any campaign world, with a good DM you can have a great story.
Granted.
The Designers of FR, to me least, seem like they have an inferiority complex and have to make all their heroes uber mega powerful in stats and levels.
Meh. It has been Ed Greenwood's homebrewed campaign for him and his buddies long before TSR bought it from him to help revive AD&D and soon after 2e. So what if the PC from his game become a staple of Faerun? The Companion of the Lance is pretty much a staple of Ansalon.
I was one that loved SAGA, as it freed one from class restrictions. It was the first system that truly allowed you to be and do whatever you wanted. My only problem was the fixed damage for weapons and no dice?!?!? DL has always been my favorite setting for gaming and reading, and with the advent of 3rd Ed the world has only gotten better (it would be truly awesome if the sorcerer was fixed, but hey I'll take what I can get).
It's best I reserved my opinion for that card-based system.
- First of all, as to Dragonlance having been around for longer than Eberron and FR put together? Not at all. FR has been in existence (if not as a D&D setting) since the 60's. Ed Greenwood designed it as a world that was a setting for stories and novels, and only later sold it to Gary Gygax.
IIRC, Gary Gygax left TSR long before TSR bought Ed Greenwood's homebrewed campaign (mainly Faerun), which is the basis of many Ed's submitted Dragon magazine articles.
- The great majority of the -really- over the top, overly powerful stuff wasn't at all designed with Greenwood's intent. He originally statted Elminster, pretty much known as the-then Most Powerful Mage Ever as a 17th level wizard (on par with The Biggies of Dragonlance during 1E). Only during the middle of 2E (when Gygax lost control of TSR, and Ed Greenwood lost a great deal of control of his own setting!) did the power scale get amped up rapidly. And in 3E, it's gone even more out of control.
Can't be helped. TSR and now WotC keep advancing the timeline. If PC can advance, why can't them iconic characters as well, especially when you take into account the many novel's adventures they featured in.
It's probably the same with Dragonlance. I mean the last time I checked (mind you, I haven't kept up with all of the new novels after Second Generation), the Companions have kids.
So, that being said, the primary problem is this: FR has not developed much as its creator has intended. He still plays 2E rules with much of the 1E world intact, and none of the original adventurers of his setting (The Knights of Myth Drannor) are near 20th level, despite decades of play.
Are you quoting Ed?
- The printing, art and design of the SP books is not as good as those books by WotC (don't get me wrong, but honestly it could be better).
Have you seen the pictures in War of the Lance?? Ms. Queen of Darkness has a freakin' bad-*** picture in there, along with many others.
as a side note, i, also, am one of those who enjoyed the saga rpg.
that's why they tried saga with DL, because DL as DnD did not work.
That depends on your definition of "work". It worked well enough to go through dozens of modules and multiple versions of D&D before it was Saga-ized. And now it's back as a D&D world.
I'd call that "working", but that's just me.
DL as DnD was dead for a number of years before it was 'Saga-ized'. killing a campaign world for lack of sales is not my definition of working.
Given that it was ultimately made a dual-stat product line (AD&D and SAGA) in order to capture a larger market share, I would suggest that poor sales of Dragonlance game products before that point had nothing to do with it being a D&D world.
Cheers,
Cam
killing a campaign world for lack of sales is not my definition of working.
If how many dozen modules, how many sourcebooks, and thousands upon thousands of gamers playing it over the course of its life isn't your definition of "working", I don't know what is. Only a handful of settings for any RPG, let alone D&D, have been more successful.
If anything short of immortality in a game is failure, there have been some mighty great and successful failures in the history of RPGs.
If how many dozen modules, how many sourcebooks, and thousands upon thousands of gamers playing it over the course of its life isn't your definition of "working", I don't know what is.
from encyclopedia britannica: transferring energy to an object that is moved over a distance by an external force at least part of which is applied in the direction of displacement. ;)
from encyclopedia britannica: transferring energy to an object that is moved over a distance by an external force at least part of which is applied in the direction of displacement. ;)
Wise guy.
Dragonlance is just fine for gaming, though I do think SAGA fits nicer than D&D does. But Im generally a fan of each thing being its own little entity
DL was never a big DnD world. it is THE novel world but never succeeded as a role-playing game. that's why they tried saga with DL, because DL as DnD did not work.
as a side note, i, also, am one of those who enjoyed the saga rpg.
A bad business move on TSR's part, IMHO. While it gained you as a fan, it lost me when there is no more D&D/Dragonlance continuation.
To me, SAGA is best used on a completely original fantasy setting, not any of the current brands they had.
Given that it was ultimately made a dual-stat product line (AD&D and SAGA) in order to capture a larger market share, I would suggest that poor sales of Dragonlance game products before that point had nothing to do with it being a D&D world.
Unfortunately, those dual-stats books didn't bring me back to D&D/Dragonlance in the 90's. (You guys at Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Production did.) My intense dislike at SAGA includes bypassing any product containing such information.
I like my D&D/Dragonlance and Classic MSH, not their SAGA successors.
But on a RPG scale, it has never seemed to have shined like it should, a lot of people say it is because there is so much canon, that it is hard at times to do campaigns that run afoul of it.
kind of off topic, but, what timeframe does the sovereign press dragonlance campaign setting take place in? I, obviously, haven't bought the book but was curious where they took the world.
Well, the book does cover most of the ages, even in a small part. However, the book is set Post-War of Souls in most of the material. This would make it take place at the 38 SC year (I can't remember what that would be in AC years).