The Defiler would be an easy entry prestige class, that rather than channel the energy throught them to cast a spell, they just suck it out of the surrounding life forces (in plants and animals) around them (causing them temp Con damage), thus avoiding taking temp Con damage themselves.
The basic Mechanic works like this:
1st: All spells have a spell point cost equal to their spell level:
IE: 1st level spells cost 1 Spell Point, 9th Level spells cost 9 spell points.
A preserver has a Spell Point Pool equal to their Con mod + 1 spell point per level. Example: 1st Level Preserver with a Con 14 has a spell point pool of 3 (2 (con mod) + 1 (Preserver Level))
The spell point pool represents how many points they have BEFORE they start taking temp Con. Damage. IE (the above example) The preserver can cast up to 3 1st level spells (1 spell point each) before he starts taking Con damage. After the spell point pool is exhausted any additional spell points cause temp Constitution damage.
Meta-Magic Feats that increase the spell level also cause the spell to cost more spell points. The cost is equal to the spell slot used to cast the spell.
Also a feat is introduced so that the Preserver can get more spell points:
Feat: Extra Spell Points
Prerequise: Preserver
Benefit: Gain an additional number of spell points equal to 1/2 your character level rounded down.
Normal: Preservers normally only have a number spell points equal to their Con Mod +1/ Preserver Level.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times, its effects stack.
Also I'm considering just pulling the Wizard option out of my DS game completely and making all arcane spell casters Sorcerer's, given that spell books, colleges of wizardry, ect are rare things on Athas. It seems much more likely that anyone with arcane talent would simply develop their power naturally rather than through study.
As for the defiler, the system I was considering is something like this. In order to cast a spell they need to pull in enough spell points to meet the spell's spell point cost. When they do this they cause an amount of temp. Con damage to all living things within their defiling area of effect. The temp Con damage caused is equal to half their Defiler level rounded up. It still affects and area of terrain equal to 5ft x spell slot of the cast.
All Terrians have an "average Con score" that the defiler causes damage to:
Desolate: Con = 3-6
Barren: 7-9
Infertile: 10-11
Fertile: 12-15
Abundant: 16-18
Once an area has been reduced to zero Constitution it is completely barren and devoid of life. The Defiler can substitute the remaining spell points needed to cast the spell from his own spell point pool. If he doesn't and the area goes dead from Con damage then the spell fails.
Example: 6th level defiler is going to cast a fire ball in an Infertile area (con: 11). He affects all plant life within 15 feet (5ft x spell level: 3), and causes 3 points of temp Con damage to the area (3 = 1/2 caster level) giving him the 3 spell points he needs to cast a fire ball since it is a 3rd level spell and costs 3 spell points, leaving the surrounding area with a Con score of 8 reducing it to Barren.
Plant like creatures caught within the defiler's area of effect not only suffer the effects listed on Athas.org, but they also take temp Con Damage as well, as do living creatures, but they only take 1/2 the amount of Temp Con damage done, rounded up. In this case the TOTAL amount of temp Con damage done to the terrain, living creatures, and/or plant like creatures is added to the defiler's spell pool. If this damage equals the spell point cost need to cast the spell, then the spell is cast. Any additional or excess spell points are immediately lost. (this is a reflection of the defiler's reckless and regardless process of spell casting, in which he just sucks up and wastes spell points.)
Also Defiler's face a specific restriction: Once they become defiler's they no longer gain Spell Points at each level. They do not loose whatever spell points they had in their spell point pool, but they no longer gain any additional.
This system also favors the Sorcerer class slightly as they no longer have to delay the casting of their spells in order to apply a meta magic feat. They simply have to expend an extra number of spell points needed to cast the spell from the required spell slot.
I'm looking for opinions on this system. Any help/advice that could be give would be deeply appreciated.
Thanks
-Anthony-
3.5 Dragonlance has a similar "optional" mechanic.
Nice job.
3.5 Dragonlance has a similar "optional" mechanic.
I believe that would be the "Curse of the Magii"
Actually DL is my favorite setting with Dark Sun running a good second. Forgotten Realms = BAD EXPERIENCE I NEVER WANT TO REPEAT.
But thanks for the compliment
-Anthony-
I believe that would be the "Curse of the Magii"
Actually DL is my favorite setting with Dark Sun running a good second. Forgotten Realms = BAD EXPERIENCE I NEVER WANT TO REPEAT.
But thanks for the compliment
-Anthony-
Yep, thats the one!
DS is my favorite, with DL running a close second.
I'm not a fan of FR either. Over saturated campaign world IMO.
Sorry to be offensive, but you really don't know anything about Athas, do you? I think you should read some more of the old material, there are a lot of things that are explained in those sources.
Errrrr...I hope that wasn't directed at me.
I've taken a look at the defiler/preserver spell casting system presented on Athas.org. I wanted to find something slightly grittier so I came up with this "spell point" system. Pretty much all spell casters start off as "Preserver's", who cast by drawing in energy and channelling it through themselves. Problem is after casting X number of spells they begin to take temp. Con damage.
We also used to use a spell point system (taken from Dragon mag a long time ago), however there is one in the Unearthed Arcana that can be used for spontaneous casting. I prefer this as the energy is taken as the spell is being cast, so the defiler defiles as he/she casts the spell, similarly a preserver has to hide the energy gathering part of the spell. Having to draw power added to spell-casting times (dependant on the surrounding terrain i.e. if in a desolate area a preserver would have to spend a lot longer to avoid defiling plants giving defilers the edge on casting times).
This method seemed to capture the mechanics and spirit of the Prism Pentad books.
Take a look HERE if your interested.
Gather (Cha)
Check: You can gather arcane energy to cast arcane spells that you have prepared. The DC of the check to gather energy to cast a spell is (Spell level x 3 +10) + (caster level).
Action: Gathering energy is a move action.
Try Again: Yes.
Special: Spell energy from a check may be held for up to the characters Constitution in rounds before being released as a spell. This means that a character can build up energy for several rounds to gather enough energy to cast a powerful spell. Terrain modifies the skill check and sorcerer gains a +4 on the gather skill check if defile.
GATHERING ENERGY FOR THE SPELL
Once the spell is chosen the character must accumulate the energy to cast the spell. (Although some casters will accumulate the energy first and then choose the spell, this can be done in either order.) For Arcane spells the character uses the Gather skill to accumulate enough plant life energy (or through mutation other forms of energy) to cast the arcane spell. Each attempt to Gather is considered a move action.
Gathering plant life has no cost to the caster.
If the spellcaster has Gathered at least the amount needed for the spell then the caster can cast the spell with all effects per the spell description. If the caster does not have enough energy to cast a specific spell they can choose to either abandon the casting of the spell, or store the energy and try again on subsequent actions to gather enough energy to cast the spell. This means that a caster can accumulate energy over several rounds to cast a powerful spell or gather energy before hand to have the energy needed to cast a spell when they will not be near a source for their type of casting. Spell energy from the checks may only be stored for a number of rounds equal to the casters Constitution score.
The required energy that must be Gathered to cast a spell is:
(Spell level x 3 +10) + (caster level)
DEFILING
Arcane spellcasters that that are gathering plant life for a spell have the option to defile. Thus draining every last ounce of life energy out of the plants in their defiler radius and turning them into black lifeless ash. This gives the caster additional energy to work with dependant on how fertile the land was that they defile. When a caster defiles the land a radius around the caster equal to the result of the gather check in feet is defiled. Each defiling gather check made in the defiled region increases the radius. (Total the checks to find the total area defiled.) All living creatures caught in the defiler radius during the gather check, suffer a -1 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and saves for one round. Plant creatures caught within the defiler radius suffer 2 points of damage/spell level. (0 level spells deal 1 damage.) Any arcane caster can choose to defile, however if they are not a defiler they must make a Will save, (DC equals 10 + spell level + number of times previously has defiled) if the save succeeds then the character remains a Preserver. However if the save is failed the character becomes a defiler. Terrain type affects all arcane casters when they gather energy for spell casting, though defilers are less affected.
Table 8-1: Terrain Modifiers
Terrain Type Examples Standard Gather skill check modifier Defiler Gather skill check bonus
Desolate Salt Flats, Sea of Silt -4 +0
Barren Boulder Fields, Mountains, Sandy Wastes -2 +2
Infertile City, Rocky Badlands, Stony Barrens, Scrubland +0 +4
Fertile Verdant Plains, Savannah, Swamp, Mud Flats +2 +6
Abundant Forest, Ocean, Garden +4 +8
Errrrr...I hope that wasn't directed at me.
:P , Of course not. I understand that you were merely acessing his idea from a more neutral view. I'm sure you understand some of the misconceptions Athony Kane is operating under.
:P , Of course not. I understand that you were merely acessing his idea from a more neutral view. I'm sure you understand some of the misconceptions Athony Kane is operating under.
Well, I do think it was pretty creative on his part, but wouldn't use it for my campaign.
I'm sure you understand some of the misconceptions Athony Kane is operating under.
Nice...
And there is only a one true way, with no possibility of differing understandings or is it even open to interpretation based on personal preferences to accomplish one's own campaign goals? Speaking of operating under misconceptions. What makes you think he hasn't read "those sources" and is changing some things to ...
... find something slightly grittier ...
Can no one do something different with you coming down with accusations of "you just don't know anything, do you?" Yes, something that will go down well if we all did that... "Hey go away and read everything and when you come back prove it by only by me agreeing with what you say."
Looks like maybe we're due for another apology thread by Rhul-Than Sage soon.Heh.... I am using a gathing mechanic on the D20 modern darksun conversion I am working on..... here is my system:
Seker,
In your system, how much energy does a spellcaster gather each round? How much more does a caster gain by defiling? You state neither amount in your rules, though you state how much total is required (so that's a very important piece of information you've left out!).
Any arcane caster can choose to defile, however if they are not a defiler they must make a Will save, (DC equals 10 + spell level + number of times previously has defiled) if the save succeeds then the character remains a Preserver. However if the save is failed the character becomes a defiler.
What does that mean, they "become a defiler"? If anyone can defile, and some wizards choose not to, this effect is meaningless. I'd suggest changing this to an addiction.
Off the top of my head: a wizard becomes addicted to the ease, power, and general feeling inspired by defiling. Thus, one must make a Will save against DC 15 when defiling. We'll call this an Addiction roll.
Failure of the Addiction roll means you enjoyed defiiling and find it harder to resist the next time you are casting a spell. You must also now make a Will-based save when you next cast a spell to avoid letting loose and defiling. This is a Temptation roll.
Success on the Temptation roll means you resist the temptation, failure means you give in to it.
However, anytime you defile, whether by choice or due to failing the Temptation will-save, you must roll an Addiction save. Each time you fail this roll, it adds +2 to the DC of the next Temptation roll.
Eventually, the penalty will make the DC too high for the caster to overcome. At this point the caster is unquestionably a defiler and cannot help but defile when he casts spells.
That's a little complicated, though. Maybe something simpler but along the same lines.
Seker,
In your system, how much energy does a spellcaster gather each round? How much more does a caster gain by defiling? You state neither amount in your rules, though you state how much total is required (so that's a very important piece of information you've left out!).
Sorry I needed to make it more accurate in the wording.... the result of the skill check is the amount you gather.
example a 5th level sorcerer (not D&D sorcerer just the genenric term used in the novels for arcane caster. In the D20 version I am building the arcane casters are called sorcerer though the mechanic is closer to wizrds from D&D)
has a gather skill of 8 ranks and a cha of 16.
starts gathering energy for casting a spell in an infertile area as a preserver. (no modifier) this takes a move action.... he rolls a 12. this gives him a total of 23 on ths skill check (27 if he had defiled.) which is the amount of life energy he has gathered to cast a spell.
Now if he were trying to cast a fireball, he would actually need 24 points of energy to cast at 5th level.... 10 + 9 [3 x spell level] + 5 [caster level if cast at full level] so he would either have to defile ...... or hold off on casting and spend another move action to gather more energy....
What does that mean, they "become a defiler"? If anyone can defile, and some wizards choose not to, this effect is meaningless. I'd suggest changing this to an addiction.
Sorry my rules for defiling actually are kind of like the addiction rules...... my rules are based off the allegiance system. A preserver can always resort to defiling in that system..... but once your allegiance changes you can no longer cast as a preserver...... you can only defile. The Will save in my system switches your allegiance if you fail it..... and the DC increases with every time you defile.
note while I said any arcane caster may choose to defile.... I did not say any arcane caster can choose not to defile. I may just need to reword this a bit
Off the top of my head: a wizard becomes addicted to the ease, power, and general feeling inspired by defiling. Thus, one must make a Will save against DC 15 when defiling. We'll call this an Addiction roll.
Failure of the Addiction roll means you enjoyed defiiling and find it harder to resist the next time you are casting a spell. You must also now make a Will-based save when you next cast a spell to avoid letting loose and defiling. This is a Temptation roll.
Success on the Temptation roll means you resist the temptation, failure means you give in to it.
However, anytime you defile, whether by choice or due to failing the Temptation will-save, you must roll an Addiction save. Each time you fail this roll, it adds +2 to the DC of the next Temptation roll.
Eventually, the penalty will make the DC too high for the caster to overcome. At this point the caster is unquestionably a defiler and cannot help but defile when he casts spells.
That's a little complicated, though. Maybe something simpler but along the same lines.
I like addiction rules..... but the allegiance rules made it so much easier on it... I was just trying not to confuse the issue by adding those to my post..... seems that failed
Nice...
And there is only a one true way, with no possibility of differing understandings or is it even open to interpretation based on personal preferences to accomplish one's own campaign goals? Speaking of operating under misconceptions. What makes you think he hasn't read "those sources" and is changing some things to ...
Can no one do something different with you coming down with accusations of "you just don't know anything, do you?" Yes, something that will go down well if we all did that... "Hey go away and read everything and when you come back prove it by only by me agreeing with what you say."
I think someone should apologize to me
Nice...
And there is only a one true way, with no possibility of differing understandings or is it even open to interpretation based on personal preferences to accomplish one's own campaign goals? Speaking of operating under misconceptions. What makes you think he hasn't read "those sources" and is changing some things to ...
Can no one do something different with you coming down with accusations of "you just don't know anything, do you?" Yes, something that will go down well if we all did that... "Hey go away and read everything and when you come back prove it by only by me agreeing with what you say."
Obviously there are different ways to interperate things and I should hyave shown more respect to the effort to craft a system that serves him well. Some of his comments in the orginal post led me to believe that he wasn't just going with an interpretation that worked better for him, but also was unaware of many of the explainations for the way things working in the setting and other details of the setting. I can understand how it probably would have been better if I addressed those isssues individually rather than making a blanket statement, so I will do so now.
They are all contained within the following paragraph.
Also I'm considering just pulling the Wizard option out of my DS game completely and making all arcane spell casters Sorcerer's, given that spell books, colleges of wizardry, ect are rare things on Athas. It seems much more likely that anyone with arcane talent would simply develop their power naturally rather than through study.
This ignores the entire history of magic on Athas. Magic was invented by Rajaat the Warbringer and taught be him to many disciples including the Champions who rule are now the Sorcerer-Kings/Queens who rule the city-states.
It also implies possible ignorance of the way spellbooks are handled in the setting. Being concealed in various forms such as intricate beadwork, tattoos, weaven patterns, marked sticks, etc.
The individual apprenticeship style of teaching that most preservers learn from is also ignored in the comment or unknown perhaps. As is the fact the many defilers are taught by the SKs which do have libraries of arcane knowledge of great extent.
The last part of the commment is completely at crosshairs with cannon (which wouldn't be an issue if he aknowledged that fact in some way).
Plus colleges of wizardy aren't rare on athas, they don't exsist anywhere in the detailed setting.
The mechanic itself seems interesting and is pretty well thought out
.This ignores the entire history of magic on Athas. Magic was invented by Rajaat the Warbringer and taught be him to many disciples including the Champions who rule are now the Sorcerer-Kings/Queens who rule the city-states.
It also implies possible ignorance of the way spellbooks are handled in the setting. Being concealed in various forms such as intricate beadwork, tattoos, weaven patterns, marked sticks, etc.
The individual apprenticeship style of teaching that most preservers learn from is also ignored in the comment or unknown perhaps. As is the fact the many defilers are taught by the SKs which do have libraries of arcane knowledge of great extent.
The last part of the commment is completely at crosshairs with cannon (which wouldn't be an issue if he aknowledged that fact in some way).
Plus colleges of wizardy aren't rare on athas, they don't exsist anywhere in the detailed setting.
The mechanic itself seems interesting and is pretty well thought out
First thanks for the compliment on the Mechanic. Understand that when I present Mechanics, that's what I do, present mechanics. I don't fill in "flavor text" because to me that just complicates the process that's being described.
Now onto other things:
1.) The topic of the "Origin of Magic". Yes Raajat did discover Magic on Athas and taught it to many people, including his champions. All that I have been able to gather from the "source material" is that its "Arcane Magic" It really never goes into detailing whether or not Raajat opened an "arcane academy" for lack of a better description, thus what kind of arcane magic he discovered and then taught to his disciples is really open to interpetation.
My reason for selecting the "Sorcerer" rather than the wizard is two fold.
First, Sorcerery is an Arcane form of spell casting that would be much easier to discover than academical magic. It simply manefests within the user and is then formed into the spell, thus being extremely natural. In terms of realism its more likely that sorcery would be discovered first. Also there is nothing stating that sorcerers cannot teach their art to people who are willing to learn. So it is possible that Raajat discovered sorcerery and taught that to his campions. Mechanically it still fits the same arcane nitch.
Second, the name "Sorcerer-King" does imply that they are sorcerers. In 2nd edition the destinction was irrelivant as there was only the "wizard" available as an arcane spell casting class. All spell casters were by default designed as wizards. 3rd edition provides a new interpetation by presenting the Sorcerer class. Also Sorcerer magic, because its more instinctual, fits into the Sorcerer Kings progression into becoming a "Dragon" As most of us know, Dragon magic is more like willing magic to happen, not book cast, which is much more like the magic a Sorcerer weilds.
Also nothing is stopping the Sorcerer from penning his knowledge down into "spell books" Its just that mechanically he doesn't need the spell books to prepare his spells. To further push this line of thought, the feat [Arcane Preperation] would allow a Sorcerer to prepare their spells as a wizard does.
In terms of game power, if anything, I would be giving the "Sorcerer Kings" a huge spell casting advantage as Sorcerer's can cast more spells than a Mage of equal level. Also given the said above mechanic which allows them to "defile more" in order to add on a metamagic feat, they no longer suffer a delay in spell casting, they just have to meet the adjusted spell point cost.
I've made Defiling an option/choice. A player can choose which path they want to follow, the default being Preserver. The path to quicker power though still lies in the Defiler PrC and spell system.
Preservers are still assumed to gather spell energy from the surrounding enviorment, just rather than cause damage and kill off the vegitation in the area, they substitute it by channeling a part of themselves into the spell. The way its set up also forces the preserver to be more conservative/responsible with their spells as casting too many could be physically harmful to them. (I'm working on a Preserver PrC that rewards them for remaining preserves by making spells cost less Spell points as they reach higher levels.)
My point is that I'm not only trying to develop a mechanic that works, but I've also thought out my reasons for doing things this way as well. I didn't just wake up one day, not know jack about the setting or the system, and decided to build a mechanic for it. No I've done my homework, read my 2nd edition source material, read the Athas.org material, and then came to a conclusion that something was lost in the translation.
Don't get me wrong I feel as though the Athas.org material is a good start to bring DS into 3.5 edition but IMO its far from complete.
I think I've proven that I have a descent idea of what I'm talking about, and my reasons for feeling the way that I do, and thus coming to the decisions I've made. Why because it works better for me and my players.
If that doesn't fit with the "pureist cannon" this is what I have to say: As has been stated in the D&D 3rd and 3.5 source material, as DM its your game/your rules, these books just provide the guidlines, ultimately play and have fun as you see fit. And that's exactly what I'm going to do, play and have fun as I see fit. Sorry if that doesn't agree with you.
-Kane-
Now, Eirc, I think this qualifies as a good substitue for an apology, considering he effectively demonstrated the reasons (and good reasons they are) behind his unfortunate statement.
1.) The topic of the "Origin of Magic". Yes Raajat did discover Magic on Athas and taught it to many people, including his champions. All that I have been able to gather from the "source material" is that its "Arcane Magic" It really never goes into detailing whether or not Raajat opened an "arcane academy" for lack of a better description, thus what kind of arcane magic he discovered and then taught to his disciples is really open to interpetation.
Ah but the big thing here is that he taught his apprentices..... Sorcerers are not taught they are born.
My reason for selecting the "Sorcerer" rather than the wizard is two fold.
First, Sorcerery is an Arcane form of spell casting that would be much easier to discover than academical magic. It simply manefests within the user and is then formed into the spell, thus being extremely natural. In terms of realism its more likely that sorcery would be discovered first. Also there is nothing stating that sorcerers cannot teach their art to people who are willing to learn. So it is possible that Raajat discovered sorcerery and taught that to his campions. Mechanically it still fits the same arcane nitch.
Actually in the description of Sorcerer's in 3.x they specify that sorcerers start spontainiously casting without any instruction before puberty. That goes against the idea of Rajaat teaching anything.... unless you are going by the idea that he had to alter his students to make them sorcerers..... and if you do that then were did the non human casters come from, as Rajaat only trained humans. Mechanically it does fit, but it goes against the fluff in both the setting and the players handbook for 3.5.
Second, the name "Sorcerer-King" does imply that they are sorcerers. In 2nd edition the destinction was irrelivant as there was only the "wizard" available as an arcane spell casting class. All spell casters were by default designed as wizards. 3rd edition provides a new interpetation by presenting the Sorcerer class. Also Sorcerer magic, because its more instinctual, fits into the Sorcerer Kings progression into becoming a "Dragon" As most of us know, Dragon magic is more like willing magic to happen, not book cast, which is much more like the magic a Sorcerer weilds.
Actually in my own system I am creating for D20 modern Darksun, I am having the advanced arcane class be called sorcerer so the name fits the darksun fluff..... but that does not change the fact that the "sorcerers" from the darksun fluff and novels were identical in all respects to the wizards in other worlds.... Heck in the first novel of the Prism Pentad, Sadira had to go get her spellbook from her hiding place when she fled the slave pens, and it was taken from her by the elf that sold her to Agis. And this loss seemed to be an extremely important thing to her. If she always had the same spells (ie like a PHB sorcerer) then a spellbook would be uneeded.
Also nothing is stopping the Sorcerer from penning his knowledge down into "spell books" Its just that mechanically he doesn't need the spell books to prepare his spells. To further push this line of thought, the feat [Arcane Preperation] would allow a Sorcerer to prepare their spells as a wizard does.
and while arcane prep does allow them to prepare as a wizard.... per the official rules this means they can prepare their spells known as wizards spells. It does not allow you to prepare spells you do not already know as a sorcerer. (note I personally, in my own games, allow them to prepare any spell from a spellbook, whether they know it or not.... but that is not official rules.... that is my house rule.)
In terms of game power, if anything, I would be giving the "Sorcerer Kings" a huge spell casting advantage as Sorcerer's can cast more spells than a Mage of equal level. Also given the said above mechanic which allows them to "defile more" in order to add on a metamagic feat, they no longer suffer a delay in spell casting, they just have to meet the adjusted spell point cost.
Actually making the SK's PHB sorcerers severely hampers them...... yes they can cast a few more spells of each level per day, but at their level that really makes little to no difference..... however they have lost the versatility of being able to tailor their spell lists that a wizard has.... that is a big loss at high levels. At high levels you normally are not going to be going through all your spells in a given encounter as either a wizard or a sorcerer.
I've made Defiling an option/choice. A player can choose which path they want to follow, the default being Preserver. The path to quicker power though still lies in the Defiler PrC and spell system.
Preservers are still assumed to gather spell energy from the surrounding enviorment, just rather than cause damage and kill off the vegitation in the area, they substitute it by channeling a part of themselves into the spell. The way its set up also forces the preserver to be more conservative/responsible with their spells as casting too many could be physically harmful to them. (I'm working on a Preserver PrC that rewards them for remaining preserves by making spells cost less Spell points as they reach higher levels.)
It is a very nice mechanic for the spellcasting, I went along a similiar route as I posted above.
My point is that I'm not only trying to develop a mechanic that works, but I've also thought out my reasons for doing things this way as well. I didn't just wake up one day, not know jack about the setting or the system, and decided to build a mechanic for it. No I've done my homework, read my 2nd edition source material, read the Athas.org material, and then came to a conclusion that something was lost in the translation.
I personally agree that some of the fluff was lost in the translation, however alot of that is caused because athas.org has limitations that they have to follow per Wizards of the Coast. This is the main reason I have been working on my D20 modern rules for DS.... I want a fluffy set of rules that gives as much customization as possible for characters with the fewest extra rules.
Don't get me wrong I feel as though the Athas.org material is a good start to bring DS into 3.5 edition but IMO its far from complete.
I love alot of their stuff myself, and have even been lending a hand on the epic rules.... but again they have constraints they have to follow.
I think I've proven that I have a descent idea of what I'm talking about, and my reasons for feeling the way that I do, and thus coming to the decisions I've made. Why because it works better for me and my players.
If that doesn't fit with the "pureist cannon" this is what I have to say: As has been stated in the D&D 3rd and 3.5 source material, as DM its your game/your rules, these books just provide the guidlines, ultimately play and have fun as you see fit. And that's exactly what I'm going to do, play and have fun as I see fit. Sorry if that doesn't agree with you.
-Kane-
Your system would be a great house rule.... The only thing I was trying to mention was that the sorcerer class really does not fit for the "sorcerers" of athas...... Sorcery in athas is skill that allows you to take energy from other living things and mold it using learned skills...... unlike the sorcerers of normal D&D that are people born with innate magic that they shape. (and are rumorred to be the descendants of supernatural creatures like dragons)
..... and if you do that then were did the non human casters come from, as Rajaat only trained humans.
Actually, Rajaat taught all the rebirth races the art of magic. He just found that humans were more suited for his personal agenda.
Actually in the description of Sorcerer's in 3.x they specify that sorcerers start spontainiously casting without any instruction before puberty. That goes against the idea of Rajaat teaching anything.... unless you are going by the idea that he had to alter his students to make them sorcerers.....
Not necessarily. It is easy to imagine that every creature in the world (once the New Races came) had potential to cast as a sorcerer, just as every person has potential to ride a bicycle as an analogy. No one can ride a bike until it is invented, just as no one could cast as a sorcerer until the methods are discovered the first time. The "tools" to invent cast spells with innately didn't come about until the New Age races were created. Maybe Rajaat studied the talent to cast spells by dissecting individual specimens of New Races that displayed the ability to cast innately because he wanted to understand how to make better use of the talent. With the knowledge he learned he taught select others how to best unleash their own arcane potential, just as a monastery teaches students how to unleash enlightenment or physical martial mastery potential.
If you want to say that sorcerers do everything by accident and then practice, that is fine. But there is nothing contradictory to the 3.5 class or with Athasian arcane casters with saying that everyone has potential but that it takes self-knowledge, self study, and self-improvement to be able to actively do it. In that regard, it might be just fine to even keep a mentor/apprentice system, and even throw training as a requirement to advance a level in sorcerer. The 3.5 wizard requires a little fluff changing to make it work on Athas, so changing the fluff of the 3.5 sorcerer isn't out of line either. You can still make life tough for characters who follow the sorcerer class by the whole defiling display and mechanic, plus make arcane spell components troublesome to find and not allow the Eschew Components feat to be used with arcane spell components.
Personally, I think it steps too much on the theme of the psion and wilder so I keep with wizard and deny access to sorcerer for characters.
If that doesn't fit with the "pureist cannon" this is what I have to say: As has been stated in the D&D 3rd and 3.5 source material, as DM its your game/your rules, these books just provide the guidlines, ultimately play and have fun as you see fit. And that's exactly what I'm going to do, play and have fun as I see fit. Sorry if that doesn't agree with you.
-Kane-
By all means enjoy yourself
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