Sysane wrote:
Free Year/Event
-13,920 Illithids settle the salt-water marshes south of the Sunrise Sea. They lay eggs in the water and feed the tadpoles masticated food while adults hunt at night.
-12,895 With their increasing mastery of psionics comes domestication of insect colonies that can produce food for the tadpoles, freeing the adult population for other activities.
-12,885 Illithid psions discover on the Hiriman highlands a Nature-Bender retreat from the Blue Age.
-12,884 When those studying the base do not report back, a group is sent to investigate.They find the brains of their comrades absorbed into a rhulisti construct, which is now imprinted with the illithid’s intelligence and personality. Illithids bow to the great intelligence and wisdom of the construct and make it their greatest leader, the Orekam.
-12,801 The Orekam makes great strides in the Way of the Unseen and starts deciphering the lore contained in the retreat, written in the ancient halfling language. An illithid civilization rises up from the marshes and highlands.
-12,698 The Orekam creates the first elder brains, inspired from its own structure and budding from its substance, as a means to produce life-shapes. The experiment is a success.
-12,315 Trading roads are constructed through the marshes, opening economic ties with the rising powers of the Green Age, leading to fruitful cultural exchanges. Illithids emigrate to the centers of Green Age civilization.
-11,154 Start of the height of illithid civilization; will end with the advent of Barien.
-10,912 An enormous earthquake rocks the land as fire and ash can be seen rising north in the Sunrise Sea. Parts of the highlands collapse and the Nature-Bender retreat, the anchor point for the Orekam, is lost.
-3,542 Cleansing Wars begin. Barien starts his war on illithids everywhere.
-3,535 The sea begins turning to silt, rain makes itself increasingly scarcer and the marshes are drying up. Illithids begin a massive construction project and exodus to subterranean nests cloistered around sources of water.
-3,306 Barien’s war machine reaches the former marshland’s area.
-3,301 Elder brains devise ceremorphosis as a mean to bring tadpoles faster to maturity to increase soldier numbers. Over the years all other Rebirth races in the region become known as thralls as illithids enslave all that do not flee and capture enemy soldiers to obtain living bodies for ceremorphosis. A vast program of enslavement is carried on the neighboring savage dromite clans, whose members make formidable psionic warriors.
-2,310 The Sea of Silt expands and swallows part of the ancestral lands.
-2,012 Illithids are slowly but surly losing the war. In an attempt to find a weapon that could decimate their enemies, the greatest elder brains delve into the Nature-Bender memories the Orekam left them. They accidentally unleash a terrible plague-weapon that spreads far before dying off, but not before rendering sterile all intelligent creatures in the region.
-2,011 In the chaos and confusion that ensues the plague, Barien pierces the front’s defenses and makes his way to the greatest city-nest, Oshul. In desperation the elder brains of Oshul make a last attempt at salvation: they pool all the illithid’s minds of their city-nest together and connect them to their own, forming a hive mind. Their combined psionic might decimate Barien’s army and mortally wounds the champion. With his last breath Barien curses the illithids with powerful sorcery. The curse makes its way through the hive mind to all its components who waste away in the ensuing days.
-2,010 With half of what remained of the race annihilated, the remaining illithids and elder brains relocate to farther areas. Of the nests that existed, only a handful remain and their oldest and greatest cities are gone. A few dromite thralls escape to their lands and spread civilization to their race.
-2,002 The end of the Cleansing Wars.
-1,990 In the ensuing years, the surviving elder brains devise a mean to procreate again by creating new tadpole-producing elder brains. The old elder brains divide their own gray matter amongst the new, imparting knowledge. The populations of the other Rebirth races in the area slowly dwindle to nothing after a few decades as their members grow old and die without progeny.
-1,923 The illithid race rises from the ashes of destruction. With the help of the elder brains the illithids try to recreate their pre-war society, but much knowledge as been lost. Illithids will never again be as great as they were. Over the hundreds of years that follow, they maintain isolation from the other Rebirth races even as their feelings of hate fade away.
-1,752 Dromite clans become united castes that initiate savage gorilla warfare to protect their borders from further illithid intrusions.
-1,737 Illithids build fortified camps on the border between illithid and dromite lands from which they lunch punitive strikes and collect dromite thralls.
[...]
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=426514
also, for the trolls, someone (can't remember just who) had struck on the idea to use some of the info on goliaths (from races of stone), as much of that info worked perfectly with the ds material on trolls (namely in RaFoaDK)
and lastly - Greyorm, i think, had done a series of write-ups on several of the cleansing wars races (i'm remembering ogres specifically). with it being rather well thought out, most of that info could be used as well.
You know who the mind flayer says that they do not really come from another plane, but another time- it is in Lords of Maddness- I really like how this could be played out, but what about the origin of the Githyanki?
Barien is the invention of Jihun-Nish for his Athilid project. In this context he is the 16th+ Champion.
Pennarin is also a 16th+ Champion, but of dopplegangers.
Trolls as goliaths was the idea of Nytcrawlr, IIRC.
-3,542 Cleansing Wars begin. Barien starts his war on illithids everywhere.
Hey Penn, I know it's been awhile since you did anything with this project, but would you have any objections to tweeking this entry a bit to reflect the information already in print (namely the portion in the Wanderer's Chronicle that states that Rajaat sent all his students away but 15) - so as not to step on any toes, and only so far as a more official standpoint goes.
What I'm thinking here is that perhaps one of the 15 (preferably one whose area of conquest would be further south) ran into resistence against a small pocket of illithids. Finding that this was only a small portion of a greater whole, Rajaat would then elevate one of this Champion's warlords (Barien) into a Champion himself (or something akin to a Champion?), in order to deal with this threat personally. It also becomes important to have this threat be far enough south as to be beyond recollection by present knowledge.
The illithids I imagined already live so far off as to be totally forgotten for millennia by the people of the Seven Cities.
That race lives exclusively east of the Dead Lands, so its kinda tough to go there in the first place, dangerous also, and the only ones who might know something about them are their undead neighbors.
As for making Barien something other than a Champion, or having him be an already existing Champion retasked for a while to cleanse the illithids...well, nothing is stoping us (the fans) from creating new Champions, as long as the race they have to cleanse is made to be resilient, inventive, and resisting. The illithids are all that.
The books speak of defiler warlords tasked with eradicating preservers during the Preserver Jihad. Those same warlords continued their task throughout the Cleansing Wars (Merek the Wrong was one such defiler warlord, under the command of a far away Hamanu). They are no more today.
Barien could be such a character, but having him cleanse the illithids is a task that Rajaat would only give to a Champion, and at that a Champion dedicated to cleansing such a powerful race. As for the idea of elevating a defiler warlord to the state of a Champion, with the help of the Pristine Tower, after another champion encounters resistance in the south, that is a good idea.
RaFoaDK already mentions the Champion Pennarin (whose cleansed race is unknown), so this leaves the door opened for other Champions that died in the past and were never known to the people of the Seven Cities. The addition of Daskinor and Keltis also supports that. There's also the Champion Irikos... Plus there were replacements - maybe more than one - of which Hamanu is one of them. RaFoaDK says Borys was a replacement too.
TotDL mentions the Champion known as the Neksos, who was tasked with killing "little people", either dwarves, gnomes, or some other race now long gone. Some have surmised that the Nekos is Borys during a phase where he didn't bear a name but only a title, but this seems dubious, since Borys has always worned his name proudly as far as we know.
Its not said anywhere per say, but I get the impression the Order is a recent addition to the Athasian big players. I'd say they appeared post-Cleansing Wars.
The undead of the Dead Lands, as far as I know, mostly stay in the Dead Lands. Secrets of the Dead Lands will reveal the actual happenings when it'll come out.
Hmm, are you making all these propositions about illithids because you'd prefer Barien didn't bring the Champions' count over 15?
I'm not sure what you want exactly...
The illithids I imagined already live so far off as to be totally forgotten for millennia by the people of the Seven Cities.
That race lives exclusively east of the Dead Lands, so its kinda tough to go there in the first place, dangerous also, and the only ones who might know something about them are their undead neighbors.
I do remember how far removed they are, and this definately appeals to me. I guess all I'm looking for is some clarification within the timeline that removes them from the more common regions (that way its easier to believe in them being forgotten).
As for making Barien something other than a Champion, or having him be an already existing Champion retasked for a while to cleanse the illithids...well, nothing is stoping us (the fans) from creating new Champions, as long as the race they have to cleanse is made to be resilient, inventive, and resisting. The illithids are all that.
The books speak of defiler warlords tasked with eradicating preservers during the Preserver Jihad. Those same warlords continued their task throughout the Cleansing Wars (Merek the Wrong was one such defiler warlord, under the command of a far away Hamanu). They are no more today.
Barien could be such a character, but having him cleanse the illithids is a task that Rajaat would only give to a Champion, and at that a Champion dedicated to cleansing such a powerful race. As for the idea of elevating a defiler warlord to the state of a Champion, with the help of the Pristine Tower, after another champion encounters resistance in the south, that is a good idea.
This last thought is more the route I was looking to go (with him being a defiler warlord subserviant to one of the Champions more active in the southern lands prior to his "ascension").
RaFoaDK already mentions the Champion Pennarin (whose cleansed race is unknown), so this leaves the door opened for other Champions that died in the past and were never known to the people of the Seven Cities. The addition of Daskinor and Keltis also supports that. There's also the Champion Irikos... Plus there were replacements - maybe more than one - of which Hamanu is one of them. RaFoaDK says Borys was a replacement too.
TotDL mentions the Champion known as the Neksos, who was tasked with killing "little people", either dwarves, gnomes, or some other race now long gone. Some have surmised that the Nekos is Borys during a phase where he didn't bear a name but only a title, but this seems dubious, since Borys has always worned his name proudly as far as we know.
I'm more of the mind that Borys replaced the Neskos. In fact I wrote up a tiny little story to explain just what had happened with that a while back. And well, hmmm.... here's that....
excerpt from "The History of Irikos" by yours truly
Irikos and Borys conspire to...(never decided on just what - IDEAS???) and thus doing both fall out of Rajaat’s favor. They quickly go into hiding to avoid their master’s wrath. Rajaat, focusing on his plans for the future, pays them little mind. In this way, they are able to avoid detection, for a time.
*Uyness (later named Abalach-Re) is elevated to Champion, as the Orc Plague, the position Irikos was meant to assume. Borys’s would-be mantle is taken up by the Neskos.***
/snip/
*** Borys would later regain his master’s regard by sacking Huliknar. This dwarven outpost had, numerous times over, handed defeat to the armies of the Neskos. Using the outpost as a staging ground, Borys launches an initiative to track the Champion down. He discovers the Neskos has weakened himself tremendously through experimentation with energies from the Gray. An ambush is set and, with the aid of the Scourge, Borys is able to further weaken his rival. The Neskos flees, only to be surrounded by a large force of attacking dwarves. Dissatisfied with the Neskos’s repeated failure, Rajaat interferes in the battle, and the Neskos is easily defeated. Rajaat immediately elevates Borys to his rightful position of Butcher of the Dwarves. Borys, a powerful shape shifter, takes the Neskos’s form and identity. He gradually shifts his army’s perception to forget that the Neskos, as a separate entity, had ever existed. Thus historically, the Neskos is easily forgotten.
I do remember how far removed they are, and this definately appeals to me. I guess all I'm looking for is some clarification within the timeline that removes them from the more common regions (that way its easier to believe in them being forgotten).
I thought it was clear, but reading up on what I wrote I see it not. For the following date, change the text to this:
-3,306 Barien’s war machine reaches the former marshland’s area, last bastion of the mind flayers.
This last thought is more the route I was looking to go (with him being a defiler warlord subserviant to one of the Champions more active in the southern lands prior to his "ascension").
Ok, I finaly see where you're going with this. You're not against inventing new Champions but you want to keep the 15 initial Champions as the only Champions for a long period of time, so that the history books mention 15 Champions while in fact there were 16 or 17 but those last ones appeared later on and worked far away, and died, so they never were remembered by the pitiful fragments of history Athasians use today.
Ok, I finaly see where you're going with this. You're not against inventing new Champions but you want to keep the 15 initial Champions as the only Champions for a long period of time, so that the history books mention 15 Champions while in fact there were 16 or 17 but those last ones appeared later on and worked far away, and died, so they never were remembered by the pitiful fragments of history Athasians use today.
yes, exactly
Hmm, are you making all these propositions about illithids because you'd prefer Barien didn't bring the Champions' count over 15?
No I just want people to understand that there are always other possiblilties. I wasn't actually rooting for any particular explaination, just trying to get the gears rolling in all your heads. :D
You guys seem very constrained into a narrow mode of thinking on this issue.
You guys seem very constrained into a narrow mode of thinking on this issue.
That would be squidfur- and his (widely spread) fetish of the number 15. Nothing wrong with it.
I personnaly don't care as long as there are no more than 5 more champions beside the original 15.
We gotta have fun somewhere, don't we?!
Things happen that could have been forgotten, so I have no problem believing that there were more Champions or at the least, more favorites of Rajaat who were elevated to a higher level of power and given tasks.
At any rate, I think it is the responsibility of the community to, when making new creations meant for official release, follow all previous releases. Otherwise the setting is bogged down by yet more inconsistencies, and we sure don't have enough of those
It is not so much that I don't like the creation of new Champions (making the total more than 15), but rather wishing for wider acceptance of those creations worthy of attention. By fitting these creations -ie, Barien- into the already existing history/setting we increase the chance of these becoming more widely accepted, and maybe -just maybe- they make their way into official products, thus strengthening the setting. To me, Barien and all of Penn's history incorporating the illithids are additions that deserve such attention.
At any rate, I think it is the responsibility of the community to, when making new creations meant for official release, follow all previous releases. Otherwise the setting is bogged down by yet more inconsistencies, and we sure don't have enough of those
I'm pick'n up what you're lay'n down, man :D
OK squidfur-, what do you think is missing or wrong from what I wrote that would stop it from becoming official?
Just those questions which I already posted. See man, easy stuff here. Just a little clarification was all I was talking aboot. Now just gotta get athas.org to go along with it. :D
Almost forgot - with your clarifying statement (the changed timeline entry) you've created another question. Your timeline has it that the illithids migrated to the power centers of the Green Age (ie the Tyr Region). Then with no explanation as to what happened to the rest of their "empire?", you have them back in the marshes - their last refuge. So my question is - uhh, what happened?
Then, it should read:
-12,315 Trading roads are constructed through the marshes, opening economic ties with the rising powers of the Green Age, leading to fruitful cultural exchanges. Some illithids emigrate to the centers of Green Age civilization.
Do people want Barien to be...
A) the 16th (or some other number) Champion from the get go
B) a mortal made Champion later on when the need arose
C) a defiler warlord made Champion later on when the need arose
Do people want Barien to be...
A) the 16th (or some other number) Champion from the get go
B) a mortal made Champion later on when the need arose
C) a defiler warlord made Champion later on when the need arose
My vote is for C, due to the fact that the defiler warlords were the leaders of all Rajaat's armies. He should not be a regular mortal elevated because, according to RaFoaDK, Hamanu was elevated in such a manner and it keeps him more original.
:P
Bite the bullet. People are going to complain about more champions whatever way you do it.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302498
and for simplicity I've added the appropriate links to the list at the top to show what's been done.
The original inhabitants of the world, the halflings, were enslaved for a time (not very long) before the githyanki (before they split into the githzerai) came along and virtually eradicated the illithids, freeing the halflings. The githyanki then left, leaving a small garrison to ensure that illithids didn't rise again.
This would fly in the face of conventional history for certain. This would mean that Psionics were already known in the world though not commonly used until the green age. Though there are many holes in the logic, with some work it could be the basis of an alternate DS setting...
This is all very cool stuff, but seeing as I'm a bit new to the ancient history of Athas, could anyone point me in the direction of which books to start with?
A great deal of it is speculative actually. The sources are very fractured and there isn't really that much material on the earlier ages of athas.
The Prism Pentad, Psionic Artifacts of Athas, Mindlords of the Last Sea, the Timeline from the 2nd edition box set, Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, and City by the Sea of Silt all contain pieces of information about the ancient history of Athas. I'm sure some of the Adventures and other books contain a few tid bits as well.
A great deal of it is speculative actually. The sources are very fractured and there isn't really that much material on the earlier ages of athas.
The Prism Pentad, Psionic Artifacts of Athas, Mindlords of the Last Sea, the Timeline from the 2nd edition box set, Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King, and City by the Sea of Silt all contain pieces of information about the ancient history of Athas. I'm sure some of the Adventures and other books contain a few tid bits as well.
I read the Prism Pentad like 2 years ago, and barely remember it. Since I've started DMing Dark Sun, I've mostly been focusing on material from the original boxed set and Elves of Athas. I'll take a look at those when I come back from my vacation. Thanks.
Troglodytes? Ettins?
Does Goblins cover Hobgoblins & Bugbears too or did they never exist on Athas? If the former is the case then that champion really had his hands full!
Troglodytes? Ettins?
I don't think there is anything to say one way or another about that.
Does Goblins cover Hobgoblins & Bugbears too or did they never exist on Athas? If the former is the case then that champion really had his hands full!
Troglodytes? Ettins?
In the original lineup of rules, there were Dragon Magazines that had lists of DS appropriate monsters from the various Monstrous Compendiums. The Ettin was one of those monsters.
As far as I'm concerned, the Ettin may be a Child of the Tower, but was never prevalent enough to warrant a Champion.
The 15 champions would indicate 16 major races, if not in numbers then in power. We can stick to the list and have plenty of variety. Any race that may have existed in the Green Age, (like the Centaur) may have actually existed, but never with enough of a footprint to make Rajaat want to dedicate an entire Champion against them.
Dwarves needed the ire of a Champion, maybe two or three as Borys was arguably most powerful Champion and the Dwarves are still quite numerous on Athas.
The Elves needed a Champion, as they too survived. (Sure as a broken people, but still)
And you can assume a case for all the others. Trolls? Individually powerful. Goblins? Breed more prolific then rabbits. Pterrans? They have a subversive Culture. Wemics? They smell bad. Kobolds? That Tucker is a serious jerk!
But for the races that are common to other settings, like Centaurs, Bugbears, Hobgoblins, or Gnolls, you can simply say they existed, but were not present in numbers or power enough to bring the attention of a Champion against them.
Maybe lesser generals were set against the minor races, or Immortal Ministers or Propaganda and Culture Redirection were set to task to make any one of the 16 races take arms against the minor races. I don't see the 1000 year Cleansing Wars as a single war, but an eon of strife and warfare culminating in the existence of Champions with humans ending up the top of the dung heap. (Why take a human army against the Goblins, when you can get the Wemics to do it for you?)