MORIENT Material Compilation v0.3 Well here it is. The long awaited second compilation of the MOrient material. It’s in the same format as the first, but with different headings, as different subjects were discussed. There’s also a review of the results of the first poll, a couple of important questions for us to vote on and some interesting quotes from version 0.1. Actually I think I’ll put the voting questions on the webpage, the all you’ll have to do is read through the material and then check the page and e-mail me. At this point I’d like to congratulate everyone on the fine work that’s been done and the level of enthusiasm. I know you’ve kept me on my toes sifting through an enormous amount of material trying to organize it in some understandable fashion. Keep up the good work! Without any further long winded speeches by your humblest bookkeeper, here it is, enjoy! “And my son, so as there are many planes of existence, and as the one we live in is the central one of them, the plane of Prime-material, just as well is our divine and eternal country in the exact center of the Prime plane and so we can call it Central Prime. We are truly in the true heart and center of the multiverse, and in the exact point, in the exact centre of the Multiverse, Universe and Prime is the Seat of our Emperor, the Dragon.” --From a conversation between father and son in Chung-Eun “Let Chung-Eun sleep, for if it wakes, Mystara will be sorry” --Part of an Alphatian prophecy “I decided to lead an expedition up the coast a few miles in each direction in order to see what could be discovered. After a couple of miles we spotted something shining in the distance ahead of us. You can imagine my surprise when I saw, as we drew closer, a full-fledged town. Here! In what everyone knows is the absolute middle of nowhere! At first glance, I would have to guess that this town is about as big as home, back in Mafertat, Frisland, Alphatia. The homes were primarily made out of wood with straw and mud to seal them, and many small fishing canoes were moored along a full half-mile stretch of the shore and along the slow mouth of a wide river. The people going about their business in the town were undoubtedly human, but their complexion was unlike any other that I have seen. If I had to guess, I'd say that they were closest to the Jennites. They wore fairly typical clothes for this climate—scant and brightly colored, but not indecent. Aside from its size, it seemed to be a fairly typical native village, except for the great temple or palace structure of some sort at the center! It's gracefully soaring, curving architecture towered over the rest of the town, dwarfing it in comparison. But the most astonishing thing was that this structure was covered with what appeared to be gold!” --An excerpt from the diary of Taferias of Mafertat, Captain of the Glorious ; Faithful Explorer to Her Imperial Majesty, Eriadna the Wise; Wizard Extraordinaire; etc.; etc.; etc. Review ================================================================================ The statements in this review ( aside from the comments ) are taken from the results of the first poll and should be regarded as canon material for the MOrient project. The comments are simply people’s suggestions to add more detail to some of the statements. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The immortal Rohindartha will be one of the religions/philosophies used - Clerics of Rohindartha have the ability to “deanimate” undead and to calm intelligent undead. Comments: Rohindartha can be like the Mystaran version of Buddhism. Though I am far from well-versed in the beliefs of a Buddhist, I have been reading up on Japanese history, and inclusion of this religion first from Sind to MChina, and then from MCHINA to MJapan would be very accurate. As for MJAPAN, they would have been some form of animists (along the lines of the Shinto religion), probably worshipping a pantheon of Immortals who are aliases for current Immortals (though not a Sun-Goddess, Ixion falls very similar to a Japanese creator goddess). Rohindartha could be the second type of religion which makes up the whole conglomerate that far eastern religion seems to be. Estlor I would require some lengthy ritual to calm an intelligent undead. If that is included I'd say allow it, otherwise, no. Andre Martins -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Fairy/Seelie court model will be used for the Celestial Court Comments: I've been thinking about this one and I believe drakes would be perfect in MChina. Their original form is draconian, they can shapeshift to human (or elfish or dwarven) form at will. Besides, PCA1 tells us they have started fighting law so that no other Blackmoor, with their destructive power, could ever rise again. Most of them have forgotten their origins, but those in MChina haven't. Drakes should form a secret society, dedicated to destroy any blackmorian artifact discovered in Skothar and to prevent MChina to rise as a world power. And they account for part of the pantheon. The occasional finding of blackmorian devices could explain why the fairies are more interested in MChina than in the nations in Brun. Andre Martins But be sure to do some research for appropriate Chinese names. David Knott Use with modifications - many of the types listed in, for instance, PC1 are far too Western, but if we treat them as a template to build off of, modifying for cultural variances, then we would not only have an excellent MChinese Celestial Court, but also the basis for the MJapanese kami. They might even have contact with Oberon and Titania's Seelie Court as 'our esteemed Imperial cousins in the distant barbarian lands,' and treat them as distant near-equals. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Gabriele’s Barbarians will be used Comments: This seems very well thought out and should be used. From reading the Complete Barbarian's Handbook, one should keep in mind that barbarians typically fear wizard spells as bad omens ('bad magicks'). Shaman, on the other hand, are openly welcomed. Estlor With slight modifications - for instance, that the barbarian humanoids aren't necessarily evil, just barbaric - akin to the real steppe tribesmen or the humanoids of the Broken Lands. I also recommend that whoever ends up developing them do some sincere research into the various steppe tribes of Asia - there's a lot of interesting distinctions and details there just waiting to be used. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The “Hairy Red Thing” humanoid seemed to be particularly loved and will stay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Steppes of Jen will be inhabited by Jennite Horsemen. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Emperor of Chung-Eun is an Oriental Dragon (at least he’s supposed to be) Comments: if, by supposed, you mean "believed to be mythologically", in the manner that Egyptians believed their pharaohs to trace lineage all the way to Ra, but they never did anything to prove this, and people didn't care, then yes. Simon Seah This could bring plenty of good adventures into existence...think of the trouble a party would have to go through to check to see if the emperor has truly been replaced by a mage or not. Everyone will think he is a dragon, but there will be no evidence. Estlor I like the idea of a throne that no human may sit on, perhaps an artifact granted by the Immortal patron of MChina (The Great One?). There have, however, been emperors who were other races shapeshifted into human form, and even, once, when the humanoid barbarians overran MChina, a gnoll who usurped the throne and held it for his entire lifespan (paralleling the real Chinese dynasties of Mongol or other steppe barbarian conquerors). Scott Comments: [regarding the whole of Chung-Eun as being a dragon] it's not real, but common people think it's true! [regarding the whole of MChina being a dragon] Gabriele I think that oriental dragons need some place in Mystara, and if you let the regular dragons in that would jeopardize the placement of Oriental dragons. And as for the MCHINA being a dragon, well, that could use a little tuning for use. It could be something similar to Ulimwengu, where the land is the only thing the Karimari worship, and some (perhaps powerful artifact, like the one that created the seers of Yavdlom) has embued the land with the "dragon" nature. Estlor Yes, but only metaphorically - people refer to the land as if it was a dragon, more specifically as if it were an extension of the Emperor. Place names based on parts of a dragon's body are moderately common, and the weather and social climate can be seen as the dragon's temper - 'The Emperor smiles on us today' if it is sunny and pleasant, or 'the Dragon is rumbling' if the populace is growing frustrated of an overbearing governor. [Referring to the whole of MChina being a dragon] Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Emperor can have Half-Dragon offspring Comments: Although, I prefer true dragons, Dragon King gets bored, abdicates to eldest child, goes away and doesn't care anymore. That he doesn't care thereafter lets us have reigns based on the present Dragon King's whims (in turn perhaps connected to his age). Simon Seah (but only if the emperor is actually a dragon) Estlor Very rare, and with human features. Andre Martins However, they're extremely rare - one in a generation would be an auspicious sign of fertility, and many emperors go their whole lives without offspring. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dragon blood is required to be imperial royalty Comments: I think only the Emperor requires dragon blood, but loyal and worthy humans could become the remaining lesser nobility for the country. Estlor Perhaps not necessarily dragon, but some sort of special lineage John That is the law, but it is considered an insult, punishable by death if you are wrong, to doubt the draconian blood of a rightful noble. Andre Martins Probably not for all levels of nobility, but definitely for the emperor. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - There will be a Great Wall, above ground, below ground and with magical properties. Comments: The wall should definitely be substantial, and I think above-ground - a huge chasm is mildly impressive, but the Wall should be impressive because it's man-made. And it should be physical - humanoids, for instance, who are the ones it's most likely to be erected against, aren't exactly going to be cowed by mere darkness, and would keep on charging into a mind-affecting region time and time again until they get through by sheer stubbornness and persistence, simply because most of them wouldn't understand what was going on. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Chung-Eun will not have more magical power than Alphatia Comments: on the condition that the draconian rulers (if we use them) are on par in political ability and firepower with the Alphatian Council. Simon Seah As [much] magical power as Alphatia, but not so much organized..... Gabriele There certainly should be a lot of magic in MChina, but not the semi-organized, wizards-behind-every-door magic of Alphatia. Instead, there are reclusive hermits with celestial powers, colonies of mysterious magical animals who act like humans and with great charms and potent secrets, hidden caves and glens where the spirits gather, mysterious tomes and scrolls that are legacies of the great philosophers of the past, minor divinations and charms used everyday that are *probably* just folk ritual but nobody knows for sure... mystical happenings, superstitions, and strange and wondrous sights, but relatively little organized, public magic. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Chung-Eun will have a national philosophy of dealing with foreign problems by avoidance. Comments: ....But could change during WotI events!! Gabriele Fits quite well with the real China's outlook at some points in the past. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Jikushiru will be located on Zyxl and founded by refugees from Chung-Eun Comments: But still known by outsiders as Zyxl, above assuming we are putting the nation at island of Zyxl. Also, reading through the possible meaning of the name of Jiku Shiru, one possibility might be "Know Root" Something to tell people to remember where they come from. John As the one who proposed the name, I'd like to ask for some time so I can find a suitable name composed entirely of kanji (the imported Chinese characters that convey meaning, not just sound) - someone else suggested several meanings for Jikushiru, but they tended to include the infinitive form of a verb, which I'm not sure is entirely appropriate. I'll get back to you on this as soon as I get back to my kanji dictionary. Scott One possibility, the island is settle by one of MChina's huge sea expeditions that never came back. Some historian actually believe this is how Japan got colonized. John Not entirely, at least - I think that some refugees would be appropriate, but having taken a course on Japanese and Chinese history since I proposed this, I think that at most, they would have founded only one of many uji, or small households/kingdoms that made up the prehistory of MJapan. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - In legend the island(s) of Zyxl is formed out of a dragon body Comments: In mythology I think it should be, if that's what you mean. David Melik ...Not actually true, but MJapanese believe it Gabriele This could be a common belief by the population John Probably as a legend, but it's worth thinking about. It doesn't have to be true, just what people tell each other. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Jikushiru is matriarchal Comments: Assuming that it could be reasonably reconciled with the history of MJapan. If you build MJapan from scratch, a mother-earth culture might conceivably lead to a matriarchal society. Somehow they avoid a theological shift to worshipping patriarchal sky gods. Might shape the content of MJ too much, though. Simon Seah If we decide to put MJapan at Zyxl, we should decide what sort of climate it has. And if we going to have a tropical Zyxl, do we want another more traditional MJapan. John Me too - and looking at actual Japanese history, it wouldn't require much of a change at the start. (Many of the uji of Japan's prehistory were matriarchal, and there are tales of a sun priestess-queen of one of the uji who might be connected to the actual Imperial line...) Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Nentsun Plateau holds an MTibet/MShangri-La surrounded by hostile humanoids Comments: That would be a perfect place for the shrine where one or more of the Immortals receive those who want his/her/its sponsorship for Immortality. Andre Martins And, for an ironic twist, MShangri-La is a paradisical city inhabited by peace-loving, philosophical, friendly humanoids. Scott -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - There will be an MMyanmar nation, described in the first compilation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Jennite Sword is not inhabited by hostile humanoids -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - The Minean Coast is inhabited by SE Asian style pirates -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - There will be an MEthiopian nation in Tangor -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - MIndochina will be south and southwest of Tangor Bay ================================================================================ Hiding Chung-Eun ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I've been away for sometime and I am happy there was lots of stuff to read to know how the project is going on. There are a few ideas I had when reading that material that I'd like to discuss with you all. I've always felt oriental stories to deal with illusions and mind more than anything else. That might be one more key to hide MChina from the rest of the world. What I mean is that there is a class of magical bureaucrats in MChina, a kind of thought police. When a foreigner arrives at MChina shore, he will always find a happy and prosperous nation and he will be invited to stay, so that no word of the nation spreads to the world. Long ago, this policy was considered more efficient than repelling any contacts. Visitants are treated as important guests until they decide to settle in this wonderful country and integrate into the society. Of course, some of them will want to go back to their homes. That's when those bureaucrats enter into play. They never told he couldn't go away, just that he could stay as long as he wished, so nobody will think about departing without a good-bye but thieves. The bureaucrats specialize in two kind of magics: - Those useful to detect any try to escape unnoticed. Those people who try to do it are judged as criminals and sentenced to death. - Mind-affecting magic. The travelers are convinced that they should not depart, they are much better right there. This magic takes days to cast in a very subtle and undetectable process (by anyone not versed in their arts). Most people forget about their outer world concerns and never goes back to their homes. A few, however, are able to resist their suggestions. In these case, the most powerful bureaucrats cast a powerful forget spell that changes the memories of the affected. Usually, the rest of the crew of a ship has decided to stay back, so they give him memories of a shipwreck in an inhospitable land and take him out of the boundaries of the country. This way, Alphatia might even know nothing about them. And then, we shall have a week without magic, when somebody who survived the trip back will recover his real memories. What do you think? This would turn MChina in a darker place, where controlling somebody's mind is a common thing, but would give us lots of opportunities for adventures. Andre Martins ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Depending on where you place MChina, you may not have to go to too much trouble to hide it. Remember, this nation is very isolationist. We can assume that its nearest neighbors are quite familiar with it, while nations such as Alphatia know about it do not want to advertise the fact. After all, why wake the sleeping giant? But Alphatia is one reason that the magical brainwashing would be a very bad idea -- unless it is done with Immortal level magic. Remember, if some Alphatian explorer visits MChina and then manages to leave with an altered memory, it is likely that something may go wrong with the spell once he returns to Alphatia -- some other wizard may detect that something is wrong and proceed to investigate. Once the Alphatians realize that people are either disappearing or losing their memories in a certain part of the world, they would become VERY curious about the place -- and that is the last thing MChina would want. But one interesting possibility is that Alphatian propaganda was constantly poo-pooing the idea that there are any civilized empires on Skothar -- and they were generally believed as long as nobody but Jennite barbarians and Minaean pirates were contradicting them. However, once Alphatia was out of the picture, people would realize that these people were not just making up their story of a great "anti-Alphatian" empire in the east. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Depending on where you place MChina, you may not have to go to too much > trouble to hide it. Remember, this nation is very isolationist. We can > assume that its nearest neighbors are quite familiar with it, while > nations such as Alphatia know about it do not want to advertise the fact. > After all, why wake the sleeping giant? Alphatia would certainly know about it, if there aren't very well prepared measures against it. All those skyships flying around for hundreds of years (btw, does anybody know when the Alphatian skynavy was developed?), some of them were bound to have overflown MChina, bringing news of it earlier to Alphatia. And that would have attracted the attention of several curious wizards to such a prosperous land. I could accept that only the empress and a handful of people knowing the existence of MChina would be no trouble, but if entire crews get back to Alphatia, too many people would be aware of their existence. So, shipwrecks above MChina would be in order. If Eriadna knew about MChina, I would suggest there is an enigmatic prophecy that sages have interpreted as: When Thyatis learns about MChina, Alphatia will not exist on the world anymore. Then we shall have WotI and the prophecy is fulfilled. > But Alphatia is one reason that the magical brainwashing would be a very > bad idea -- unless it is done with Immortal level magic. Remember, if some > Alphatian explorer visits MChina and then manages to leave with an altered > memory, it is likely that something may go wrong with the spell once he > returns to Alphatia -- some other wizard may detect that something is wrong > and proceed to investigate. Once the Alphatians realize that people are > either disappearing or losing their memories in a certain part of the world, > they would become VERY curious about the place -- and that is the last > thing MChina would want. It might be done with an artifact in the capital. Whenever a foreigner will leave the country, no matter what they say, he is invited to the capital. The emperor himself wants to send presents to the visitant liege. There in the presence of the Dragon Throne, he forgets. We might even rule that one of the handicaps of the Throne is forgetfulness (dragons are immune to the effect) and they just put it to a good use. The Throne powers would include ship detection. Whenever a ship gets near MChina coast or MChina airspace, he who is sat there knows about it. Appropriate measures are taken. Many times, some dragons are sent to chase the ship away, so Alphatia believes the Nations of Dragons claims these lands. After the problems they had with them during the Dragonlord of Mystara series, they are not willing to provoke those mighty beasts and Eriadna makes sure everybody believes this to be the case. At other occasions, when they feel the crew has already seen too much, they invite them to stay, as I described in my previous post. Only then, the charming and the brainwashing occurs. And then we have another possibility. When Alphatia is destroyed, master Terari sees it as the fulfillment of the prophecy (he was Alphatian emperor, so he knows about it). There is no reason for secret anymore and he might tells king Stefan about the nation. This way, after the expedition to the Hollow World, Stefan might want to finance another discovery journey. The age of great navigations is open, with Karameikos playing the role of Portugal or Spain. Andre Martins ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forest Culture in Northwest Skothar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>4) There are two forested areas near the Bay of Thorin in Northwest Skothar. >>Should there be some sort of culture established there? The migration map >>shows an Oltec colony south of this area in 3,000 BC and Jennites who >began >>moving that direction in 1,900 BC, but since this area is so different from >>the Steppes where the Jennites thrive, maybe it has evolved its own unique >>culture. >> >>Perhaps this is a culture which just disappeared. Thus could be seen by >>some as an area which is forbidden. If people were too scared to visit, >>then it would be a reason for having no contact with those beyond the >>area. >This is good. Yes, good enough. But why this culture has disappeared? I'd like best primitive culture. You know the tiny bears in the 3rd (I think) Star Wars movie? Something like that. What about halflings or leprechauns (there's a good article about that somewhere at www.tsrinc.com)? Uh, by the way, how can "halfling" be translated in Chinese? Gabriele -------------------------------------------------------------------------- EWOKS! Of Course! My favorites! BTW, I have a question about the pictures for the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium: does anyone know what that furry ewok-ish thing with the spear twice his size is? Anyway, I like the idea of some sort of secret civilization, whether it be halflings or leprechauns or ewoks:) Halflings in particular could make sense, because they apparently colonized Norwold centuries ago, so they could very well have crossed the sea to settle Skothar. Speaking of which (kind of), it seems likely that at least a few elves from the Sylvan Realm would have crossed the Sea of Brun and colonized Skothar at some point. Perhaps there should be some isolated elvish settlements in MTibet or nestled in secret valleys of the Tangor Chain. Patrick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the other size,(sorry :) I have always wondered why there are so many giant races and no giant nation. Some of them are intelligent enough to have developed civilization, but there was no place in the maps for them. I would suggest they are part of the reason why MChina is isolated. One, maybe several, giant nations could have hidden the nation from Alphatia and the rest of the world. A number of small city states in permanent war would be nice. The Alphatians have met those giants and concluded they were just barbarian giants continuously fighting each other. If they were to invade their territory, they might unite and present some serious treat. So they were left undisturbed in their wars. Once in a while, a group would have been sent to make sure they were still fighting each other, but just that. Andre Martins ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, that's a good idea too. I propose that we start splitting up in groups to develop the main ideas for each area. I'd like to be in the Humanoid-Forest Culture group... Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1014 Almanac ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I was reading the new Almanac and I found a passage the is directly related to our project. In the History of Alphatia section, there is an entry about the Ochaleans that hint that the Alphatians have sent some of the MChina ancestors to Ochalea in 300 AY (700 BC). The interaction between Alphatia and MChina at that time could have been determinant to the beginning of Chung Eun's isolationism. Any ideas about how that happened? Andre Martins acrmarti@fma.if.usp.br ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Geography and Celestial Court ------------------------------------------------------------------------ First of all, regarding to the map Patrick made. To me MChina is a bit too small, but I'm probably a little biased:) But I actually come up with a few thing regarding to the size of MChina, more on that later. I like the rivers in MChina, as Chinese has quite a bit of myth regarding to rivers (which culture doesn't), this allow me to incorporate some of them. Is MManchuria supposed to be many separate tribes or one unified nation? If it is one nation, at that size it would probably dominate the MOrient. Also, what was the original reason for putting MEthopia in MOrient, it felt slightly out of place. I would also like MChina to be a little closer to MJapan, so more conflict can be created between them. Now about MChina, in order to incorporate as many time periods of historic China into the game, and make an interesting adventure background, I'm thinking of the following: MChina was quite a bit stronger than now, but certain event has weaken it recently (perhaps the WotI). So now the actual MChina emperor is weaker, and much power have shifted to the regional Kings or Dukes (about 3 to 7 in number with real power, there might be even more of them, but they don't have enough resources to compete with the big boys). Each of those Lords is eyeing the Dragon Throne, but to declare that openly will give the other Lords the reason to attack him, so each are claiming they want to protect the emperor and like help the emperor to unify the empire again. Each of the territory control by the Lords can be based on different time period or region of historical China. The relationship between MChina and neighboring nations are becoming unstable too. At the time when MChina was dominating, most of the neighboring nations and barbaric tribes near MChina's border send annual tribute to MChina's capital. But now only a few of them still do so, and some of them are actually starting to test the water and skirmishing across the border. Based on the MO poll, seems like most people does not object the Celestial Court/Seelie Court connection. So I'm thinking based on PC1, the fairies are exiled immortals, so perhaps, MChinese and maybe other MOrientals were the descendent of the original followers of those immortals. And agreement between the MOfairies and immortals allow them to keep this region somewhat isolated from rest of Mystara. For one reason or the other the MOfairies are more interested in the mortal affair than their western counterparts, and try to guide them. One way to do so is by incarnate into human babies. When a fairy does that he lost his memory, but the baby generally grow up to be quite exceptional. So even if he was from a poor family he quickly reaches position of power. And at critical time, his old fairy friends will reveal the truth or at least part of truth to him either through dream or a surreal encounter. Generally at a time, there are a handful of those "changeling" in the mortal realm with one the emperor. The fairy that does this type of incarnation often are a special type unique in MOrient. They are generally associated with some type of animal and in fairy form, they can polymorph into those animals at will. Even incarnated into human, sometime when asleep or unconscious, their sprite escape the body and the animal form seen. Some of those fairy includes the White Tiger which generally becomes general that defend the country, the Black Dragon who becomes barbaric leaders that lead invasion into MChina to test and strengthen it (or to cause a change in dynasty if one stray too far from the path), the Gold Dragons which become (hopefully) the emperors. A few rogue fairy such as the Giant Toad and the Rat, meanwhile, try to cause chaos and disruptions in MChina. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shin Chyang Yu wrote: > Is MManchuria supposed to be many separate > tribes or one unified nation? If it is one nation, at that > size it would probably dominate the MOrient. Also, what > was the original reason for putting MEthopia in MOrient, it > felt slightly out of place. I would also like MChina to > be a little closer to MJapan, so more conflict can be > created between them. The fact that everything in the area is called "Tangor something" implies that the Tangor culture is or was at play here. MAfrican cultures would make sense in Eastern Skothar as remnants of tribes left behind when Ka moved the Tangor to the Hollow World. I'm not sure who originally made the suggestion, but maybe they could elaborate. As for MManchuria, it would simply be loose tribes of barbarians with cultural ties. Perhaps we should extend Chung-Eun further eastward into the mountains? I really don't think it should extend all the way to the Sea of Brun, though. > Based on the MO poll, seems like most people does not > object the Celestial Court/Seelie Court connection. > So I'm thinking based on PC1, the fairies are exiled > immortals, so perhaps, MChinese and maybe other > MOrientals were the descendent of the original followers > of those immortals. And agreement between the MOfairies > and immortals allow them to keep this region somewhat > isolated from rest of Mystara. For one reason or the > other the MOfairies are more interested in the mortal > affair than their western counterparts, and try to > guide them. One way to do so is by incarnate into > human babies. When a fairy does that he lost his > memory, but the baby generally grow up to be quite > exceptional. So even if he was from a poor family > he quickly reaches position of power. And at critical > time, his old fairy friends will reveal the truth or > at least part of truth to him either through dream > or a surreal encounter. Generally at a time, there > are a handful of those "changeling" in the mortal > realm with one the emperor. The fairy that does this type > of incarnation often are a special type unique in MOrient. > They are generally associated with some type of animal and > in fairy form, they can polymorph into those animals at > will. Even incarnated into human, sometime when asleep > or unconscious, their sprite escape the body and the animal > form seen. Some of those fairy includes the White Tiger > which generally becomes general that defend the country, > the Black Dragon who becomes barbaric leaders that lead > invasion into MChina to test and strengthen it (or to > cause a change in dynasty if one stray too far from the > path), the Gold Dragons which become (hopefully) the > emperors. A few rogue fairy such as the Giant Toad and > the Rat, meanwhile, try to cause chaos and disruptions > in MChina. I like the basic premise, but I don't think the fairies should be quite this powerful. It seems to trivialize the role of humans (and dragons, if they are the real rulers). Perhaps if the fairies could manipulate events more subtly than taking the throne? Fairies could be the rulers of several of the smaller dominions. Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I deleted a massive amount of David's explanation for accepting my placement of Chung-Eun. Suffice to say, this is exactly what I was thinking when I placed it there. >OK, as far as geographical info goes, here's what I think. If we're having >Jennite Sword as part of Chung-Eun, let's put a river on it, it's close >enough to the mountains. That would give a reason for the Chung-Eunese for >inhabiting it(or is that Chung-Eunijin or something, please correct me.) >On Brun, the mountains are broken up into smaller ones like Altan Tepes, >Wulfholdes, Wyrmsteeth, so we can break up the MChina mountains at our >discretion (we need a name, Jennite range or something - hey you guys with >Oriental dictionaries, any ideas?) When we do this, we should have a river >running through them as well. China has at least four major rivers, and The mountains should definitely be broken up, and the highlands and mountains should stretch for many miles south of the sword. How's this: The Jennite Sword itself is a very long, sharp, crest running the entire length of the range. It is somewhat similar to the Himalayas. From the Chung- Eun side, it looks like a long range of toweringly high, sharp peaks. But the Steppes on the north side gradually slope up to the sword, so that in places the mountains rise over 5,000 feet above the steppe, but in many places there are large gaps allowing access into Chung-Eun. It is through these large gaps that the hordes attack. Perhaps the high terrain is always covered with clouds, like David described for the Wall. We should definitely add a number of additional rivers as well. >I think a lot of the geographic detail is just up to the creativity of the >map-maker. >Maybe Chung-Eun's capital should be at the base of the mountains that the >largest river flows In the real world, China's capital moved several times throughout history. The stuff I cut out all looks great, it just takes up too much room. > By the way if the location of Chung-Eun on Patrick's map is too far >from the center (but I think it meant central *prime plane* not central >continent) then we could have something to the N that made them think it was >still the center. I like the idea of the mist, but I'm not sure that it's necessary. Chung-Eun should be the MOriental nation with the largest population by far. It is also located in the center of the MOrient, with civilization steadily decreasing the further from the seat of the Dragon Emperor one goes. "Central" is also largely psychological; they think primarily of themselves, they are the center of civilization, the pinnacle of humanity, the object of creation, etc. Every-thing is inward-focused, so naturally, Chung-Eun is the center of the universe. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, we've still got to reach a consensus, but I think I can give some help. Here's my opinion. I think we should go with what Patrick has on his map for MChina, and here's why. I looked at an atlas, and examined Mystara's maps more closely. According to the atlas, on Earth even much of modern-day China is forested, and has a lot of highlands. In MChina on Patrick's map, we have highlands and forest, and it appears the Jennite Sword is the northern part. Look at Skothar on the Mystara map. If you measure the width of the land on the river going to Tangor Bay, it's about 100 to 200 miles across, and 3400 miles long, and a river this size has to have tributaries. There's even more plains around the mountains, with smaller rivers of course. Now even *without* Jennite Sword as a part of MChina, I'd say there's *plenty* space for farming (but I'd like to keep the Jennite Sword as part of it, for sheer size of the empire). Think of the *scale* here, and compare it to the countries of the Known World. If some of us wanted farming to be important in MChina, it would be better *where it is* on Patrick's map than farther out on the steppes of Jen where there are less rivers rushing down from the mountains. Maybe the Jennite Sword could be where the Jennites always attacked MChina if it is where it is on Patrick's map, and the above-ground wall could go along it, separating it from MTibet and the Steppes of Jen. If we don't reach a consensus soon, we need another vote. Not having a place set for MChina is truly starting to hinder us. David Melik -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Descriptions ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, let's see. We've ideas for a giant civilization and a halfling/leprechauns/ewoks (I like this one so much!) civilization. I agree with the others that it's better for us to focus on Chung-Eun and Jiku- Shiru, but we need a little info about all the other cultures (just to know the background...). So here's what I think (we need only a few quick infos): giant civilization could be quite developed, but MChinese (and all the others people) don't think so. You know, they could have an average knowledge, but maybe they don't show it. I think they should live on high mountains and have a very 'close' culture, like some people who lived in the north of Italy and in Austria a few centuries ago. (uh, no offense intended to Austrian people, I go there every winter and I like them very much...) the 'little' civilization (halflings or leprechauns or ewoks) shouldn't have many contacts with other people. They should be, in fact, like a legend for other people. see you soon Gabriele Ferri - fif3336@iperbole.bologna.it --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, one thing in regard to this - I was thinking of using the halflings elsewhere in the MOrient - namely, as the MOrient equivalent to the Ainu, the aboriginal residents of Japan. It would be a slightly different and novel role for them to play, and the real Ainu have at least sufficient points of similarity to the Hin (Hinu?) that they'd be interesting and plausible. Also, while I'm actually writing this, I'd like to suggest a narrative device to help with the description of the societies. I recall reading, at one time, perhaps in one of the fan-written 'net.Almanacs', about an explorer (possibly Thyatian?) who was going to try to circumnavigate the world. It seems to me that a ship and crew such as this would be the perfect opportunity for the Known World to first discover the lands we'll be creating. We could do Princess Ark-style overviews of the countries, then flesh out the details the crew wouldn't have seen. It's still nothing definite, as an idea, but it's a thought. And one final thing: it occurs to me that, even with MKorea as a stepping stone, there's a fair distance between Chung-Eun and Jikushiru (which I *will* find a good translation for if it kills me!), possibly enough to make them not really prone to interaction or cultural influences. Therefore, might I make a suggestion: along the southern and southeastern coast of Skothar, various factors have come into play and created an extremely fast current and accompanying winds. They're treacherous to sail, but if you read the currents right and navigate skillfully, travel time moving along it (say, from Chung-Eun to Jikushiru, or, at night when the current reverses, vice-versa) is greatly reduced. This might also be another factor in Chung-Eun's isolation - traveling perpendicular to the current is not easy, and if there's a treacherous barrier reef on the south side of the current to channel it appropriately, it might be quite hazardous to navigate past it... -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <<>> I was wondering: do we want a single giant civilization, or maybe rival kingdoms of hill, fire, stone, and maybe even storm and cloud giants? > Actually, one thing in regard to this - I was thinking of using the > halflings elsewhere in the MOrient - namely, as the MOrient equivalent to > the Ainu, the aboriginal residents of Japan. It would be a slightly > different and novel role for them to play, and the real Ainu have at > least sufficient points of similarity to the Hin (Hinu?) that they'd be > interesting and plausible. This looks like it would work well. I know very little about the Ainu, but halflings would probably work. The other option would be Tanagoro people, since the Tanagoro people originated very near there. Here's an idea that might work: The Halflings migrated from Central Davania to Thanegia Island between 2800BC and 1500 BC. While still on Davania, a smaller group, the "Hinu," broke off and followed the north coast of Davania around to the northwest tip of that continent, arriving there around 1400 BC. Hostile humanoids came down from the Arm of the Immortals around 1100 BC, and the Halflings fled by sea, finding Zyxl to be uninhabited. They settled there and lived peacefully until the humans from MChina (or wherever) invaded their homeland. This would mean that Jiku-Shiru would have been founded sometime after Alphatian Landfall in 1000 BC. Please look at the rough timeline that I am proposing based on various ideas and, more, on the dates given on the Mystaran Migrations map. Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi everyone. Attached is a rough map of Skothar (jpg) with what I think would be good locations for some nations of the MOrient. I think I included everything from the poll; if I missed something it was an accident. I also added several things: a new river (there will, of course, be many once we get detailed maps drawn up), nations of Southeast Asia that were only vaguely mentioned, nations of MNepal and MBhutan (in case anyone would like to detail them), and a general MManchuria on the Tangor peninsula. I was thinking that for this probably it would be best to have most of the mountains crawling with human barbarians and humanoids. They could have barbaric Manchurian customs in the North, tending more towards African customs in the south. MEthiopia could be a calm, civilized nation hidden amongst what the residents of Chung-Eun and Zyxl consider to be a completely barbaric area (kind of ironic). This way, Chung-Eun could be threatened by foreign barbarians from both sides: Jen and Tangor. These are just some rough suggestions. Please let me know what you think. Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Let's see -- here are my initial reactions to the map: > >1) The "MManchuria" region should be dominated by people related to the >Tanagoro -- in other words, the Asian-dominated areas should end just >west of that region. That easternmost peninsula, in particular, is >dominated by the Demi-Ogres mentioned in Dragon #200. This definitely makes sense. I think that we should have some sort of Oriental Barbarians (related to Tanagoro or Jennites, or humanoids) near the border with Chung-Eun at the very least, But south of that I agree that a more African civilization should exist amongst the descendants of the Tanagoro. I like the demi-ogre idea, even though I've never read the article. >2) I do see some distortion on that map relative to the maps in the D&D >Rules Cyclopedia and other sources that I have available. As a result, >the original location that I proposed for MChina (the eastern half of the >Steppes of Jen, just north of your proposed MChina location) looks >much smaller on your map than on most others. Your location for >MChina works well except for one problem -- how much of China is >covered with forests? Your MChina is almost entirely forest. IMO, it's important to take into consideration that modern China includes much of what was historically Mongolia, Manchuria, or Tibet. Historic China was made up primarily of the hills and river valleys relatively near the coast. They are covered in varying degrees by forest or jungle, much of which has already been destroyed to make way for farming and development. China never really stretched out into the plains of Central Asia until this century, so I personally think it would be best to place it nearer the coast. It could either stretch into part of the plains, or perhaps there should be a Great Wall at the crest of the Jennite Sword? >3) Most of the other suggested locations look good. Thanks! I appreciate your suggestions. Patrick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are basic outlines for various nations of the MOrient: Some of these are my interpretation of other people's ideas, some are my own. This is only a suggestion, please give any suggestions possible to improve them. -MChina (Chung-Eun): Humans of Jennite ancestry. Ruled by an emperor, possibly a dragon. approximately 5 million people? engages in limited commerce with its southern neighbors, MKorea, and MJapan. Generally hostile toward MTibet, MManchuria, and Jennite plainsmen. Magic of all sorts is highly respected. Generally nature-based religion honoring many immortals. -MJapan (Jiku-Shiru): Humans of Jennite ancestry, with a little Tangor blood. Also a native halfling minority. About 500,000 people? Several martial arts orders have considerable power. Commerce flows through MKorea. They have plans to subjugate the Tangor Peninsula to exploit it for its resources. -MKorea: Humans, mixed from different cultures into a blend. Powerful Druids. Engages in fairly heavy trade. Large merchant class. Several large cities with scattered villages in between. About 350,000 people. -MEthiopia: Remnants of Tangor people. Very isolated. Surrounded by hostile humanoids. Clerics highly respected, and much religious tolerance. Population 200,000. -MManchuria: Humanoid barbarians: predominantly small groups of ogres or gnolls leading huge tribes of kobolds. Also some humans descended from Tangor. Actively raids MKorea, Chung-Eun, MEthiopia, and MTibet. Group of powerful ogre-magi and human adventurers are trying to organize tribes for a mass effort to overrun Chung-Eun and set their leader (an ancient Red Dragon, though most of them don't know this) on the throne. -MMalaysia: Humans who migrated from Chung-Eun. Loosely organized principalities and city-states which will band together in the face of a common threat, but usually remain separate, sometimes fighting among themselves. They engage in heavy fishing and agriculture, as well as light trade and piracy. Some people try to unite the land, recognizing its vast potential due to its resources. Pop. 200,000. -MIndochina: Humans and elves. Diverse area of relatively small nations and tribes. Most are faithful followers of Rohindhartha. Pop. 280,000. -MThailand: Humans descended from Jennites. Ruled as a single united kingdom under one dynasty for centuries. Engages in trade with all its neighbors. Also has a huge underground criminal society, which runs casinos and exploits the citizenry. They also deal in a substance made from flowers illegally grown by many peasants: the plants are closely related to Amber Lotus Flowers and the drugs derived from them are very potent. The people are faithful followers of Rohindhartha's Elders' path, and most men spend at least a few months of their lives in a monastery with shaved heads and yellow robes. Pop. 450,000. -MMyanmar: Humans descended from Jennites. Loosely allied villages under a great king. The commoners rely on subsistence farming or fishing. Each has a giant "Pagoda," or temple dedicated to Rohindhartha. The people follow the Elders' Path, and their clerics and mystics are very highly respected. There are huge gold deposits in parts of the country, and the peasants are so dedicated to Rohindhartha that many of the pagodas have giant gold domes. Near the center of the nation is the capital, Pantang, the city of a hundred Pagodas. Pop. 350,000. -MTibet: Humans, elves, and humanoids. Sparsely settled land with many barbarians, but also many isolated communities of generally-peaceful followers of the Greater Path of Rohindhartha. -MSiberia: Even more sparsely settled land of humans and humanoid barbarians, particularly goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears. -MNepal: Land of the giants, with every type except sea giants. They try to make others think they are barbarians, but they actually have a fairly advanced culture. This land includes some of the highest mountains in the world as well as several active volcanoes. The giants are generally peaceful so long as they are left alone. -MBhutan (Land of the Thunder Dragon): Inhabited mainly by humans who are subsistence farmers and herders. The inhabitants are very devout followers of Rohindhartha's Greater Path. Many old dragons who have renounced treasure-hunting and instead strive to better themselves reside here, including golds, whites, blues, sapphires, rubies, and crystals. A few Cloud and Storm giants reside here as well, and a single Sky Wyrm summoned by a Nithian mage centuries ago and unable to find her way home. The monsters work with the people, seeking enlightenment. -Little Foresty Place: The secret home of the leprechauns, fairies, pixies, ewoks, etc. which are legendary in the rest of the MOrient. Dennis Sullivan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are basic outlines for various nations of the MOrient: Some of these are my interpretation of other people's ideas, some are my own. This is only a suggestion, please give any suggestions possible to improve them. Patrick said what's above, the same goes for me. I think this is all our description ideas to date (and some from PWA III), it was getting too separate in posts again. I guess more people than I thought posted stuff, but I don't think everyone did. Maybe it looks like we're about done, *but* we still have to wait for some replies & discussion, since at this time this may have been made by just a few of us, we have to give everyone their fair chance. Even if we don't all contribute to these, we still need some sort of consensus before we can go on. -notes I think we should base the history of the MIndochina peninsula on the ancient Khmer Empire. It looks like in the present much of it would be based on the "classical Khmer period". (just quoting my book on Cambodia here, which talks about a lot of SE Asia.) We should make various ethnic groups, my ideas are maybe a dominant people based on the Han, several major groups of minorities, consisting of different tribes. MZhuang is largest ethnic minority, closely affiliated with MHan. The stuff: (Chung-Eun & Jiku-Shiru first, then sort of alphabetical order, is that OK?) -MChina (Chung-Eun): Humans of Jennite ancestry. Ruled by an emperor, possibly a dragon. Regional dukes and kings also have power, and compete for emperor's favor. approximately 5 million people? Great bazaars. engages in limited commerce with its southern neighbors, MKorea, and MJapan (really MJapan? They're enemies I thought). Generally hostile toward MTibet, MManchuria, and Jennite plainsmen. Magic of all sorts is highly respected. Generally nature-based religion honoring many immortals (seelie court). Important drake secret society. traveling bureaucrats (form of the mage class) who travel from place to place to advise rulers, have schools where they teach their trade. Dragon Throne is important, powerful artifact. Wall in Jennite Sword area, underground wall in east where there is war with Jikushiru. Rohindarthan caves here & there. -MJapan (Jiku-Shiru): Humans of Jennite ancestry, with a little Tangor blood. Also a native halfling minority (the Hinu). About 500,000 people? Several martial arts orders have considerable power. Commerce flows through MKorea. They have plans to subjugate the Tangor Peninsula to exploit it for its resources. Figurehead Empress - matriarchal feudal system run by Diamyos, who rule shiru, and headed by a Shogun. Some men are in revolt. Maybe some mages with towers here and there, some of whom are also powerful in the feudal system. Several volcanoes. a major religion is nature spirits from the earthly to the celestial court, who are called kami (MShinto). Several islands (if we agree the old map was an error - I certainly do.) -MBhutan (Land of the Thunder Dragon): Inhabited mainly by humans who are subsistence farmers and herders. The inhabitants are very devout followers of Rohindhartha's Greater Path. Many old dragons who have renounced treasure-hunting and instead strive to better themselves reside here, including golds, whites, blues, sapphires, rubies, and crystals. A few Cloud and Storm giants reside here as well, and a single Sky Wyrm summoned by a Nithian mage centuries ago and unable to find her way home. The monsters work with the people, seeking enlightenment. Rohindarthan/MHindu blend. -Esterhold: various kingdoms (later parts of NACE, maybe we should talk to Herve Musseau), Verdan is a primitive fascist state protecting Esterhold from "wild" Jennites, and giants, and forcing Jennite slaves to farm (poor place for it) and mine abundant minerals. Some humanoid tribes. -MEthiopia: Remnants of Tangor people. Very isolated. Surrounded by hostile humanoids. Clerics highly respected, and much religious tolerance. Population 200,000. -Minaean Coast: These less civilized cousins of the Jennites who settled the Great Empire are known to the survivors of Alphatia as fierce pirates. Their lands consist of many coastal seaports as well as a dense jungle. Southeast Asia would probably be a good model for this culture (maybe a mix with Carthage because of Milenian and Tanagoro settlements). They are long time enemies of both Alphatia and the Great Empire. National monarchy with local democracies. Farmers and craftsmen. Humanoid tribes in forest, also halflings called Minaeanns, they live in trees and build treehouses (as in Toowin's travels.) -MIndochina: Humans and elves. Diverse area of relatively small nations and tribes. Most are faithful followers of Rohindhartha. Pop. 280,000. -Jen: stone-age nomadic tribes of herders, occasionally raid Esterhold, Minaea, Chung-Eun, etc.. largely followers of Rathanos. -MKorea: Humans, mixed from different cultures into a blend. Powerful Druids (MTaoists?). Engages in fairly heavy trade. Large merchant class. Several large cities with scattered villages in between. About 350,000 people. (Chung-Eun outposts along the coast?) -MMalaysia: Humans who migrated from Chung-Eun. Loosely organized principalities and city-states which will band together in the face of a common threat, but usually remain separate, sometimes fighting among themselves. They engage in heavy fishing and slash & burn agriculture, as well as light trade and piracy. Some people try to unite the land, recognizing its vast potential due to its resources. Pop. 200,000. MMalay is largest ethnic group, some MZhuang live here as well. Is Rohindarthism major here? -MMyanmar: Humans descended from Jennites. Loosely allied villages under a great king. The commoners rely on subsistence farming or fishing. Each has a giant "Pagoda," or temple dedicated to Rohindhartha. The people follow the Elders' Path, and their clerics and mystics are very highly respected. There are huge gold deposits in parts of the country, and the peasants are so dedicated to Rohindhartha that many of the pagodas have giant gold domes. Near the center of the nation is the capital, Pantang, the city of a hundred Pagodas. Pop. 350,000. -MNepal: Land of the giants, with every type except sea giants. They try to make others think they are barbarians, but they actually have a fairly advanced culture. This land includes some of the highest mountains in the world as well as several active volcanoes. The giants are generally peaceful so long as they are left alone. Rohindarthan/MHindu blend. -NW Forest (Northern): The secret home of the leprechauns, fairies, pixies, (oriental spirit folk), ewoks (and/or katoz,) from outer space, etc., which are legendary in the rest of the MOrient. -NW Forest (Southern): Giants hostile to Alphatia and Esterhold, developed "close" civilization. Either one large nation, or rival ones of various races (I prefer the latter, for variety, even developed giants are still going to fight - and we could throw in some new types of giants.) -MSiberia: Even more sparsely settled land of humans and humanoid barbarians, particularly goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, MInuits/MSiberians. Quarik city too. -MThailand: Humans descended from Jennites. Ruled as a single united kingdom under one dynasty for centuries. Slash & burn farming in various styles. Engages in trade with all its neighbors. Also has a huge underground criminal society, which runs casinos and exploits the citizenry. They also deal in a substance made from flowers illegally grown by many peasants: the plants are closely related to Amber Lotus Flowers and the drugs derived from them are very potent. The people are faithful followers of Rohindhartha's Elders' path, and most men spend at least a few months of their lives in a monastery with shaved heads and yellow robes. Pop. 450,000. The MHmong/MMiao here were forced south by the MHan, a few are refugees in secluded places. Distinguish themselves with names like Black Miao (Miao is after them all), White , Red, Blue, Flowery, and Cowrie shell (note - these names are Earth examples, we need our own). -Thonia: This region is settled by people of Antalian ancestry and has a culture similar to that of the Heldanners (previously the suggestion was they had Blackmoor tech and it was voted down, but barbarism was suggested instead. Do we still want it without Blackmoor technology at least?) -MTibet: Humans, elves, and humanoids. Sparsely settled land with many barbarians, but also many isolated communities of generally-peaceful followers of the Greater Path of Rohindhartha (many mystics? a little Ka, Ixion, Hel) They're herders (but many don't slaughter their animals) and farmers. Mainly Nentsun plateau, barricaded by various winding river canyons to the south, and mountains around the rest. Dude, that was some tedious work! What do you think? P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik, an OMOGATFFGGKUS Mystaran darwin@nwinfo.net --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This all looks great. I agree that we should wait for a consensus before moving on, though. > Chung-Eun engages in limited commerce with its southern neighbors, MKorea, > and MJapan (really MJapan? They're enemies I thought). IMO, a small amount of trade with Jiku-Shiru makes sense. Thyatis and Alphatia trade when they are not at war (and sometimes while they are). I guess it depends on just how bad the feelings between the nations are. > Several islands (if we agree the old map was an error - I certainly do.) Absolutely. > MMalaysia > is largest ethnic group, some MZhuang live here as well. Is Rohindarthism > major here? It should probably be a minor religion, but not predominate. > -MManchuria: Humanoid barbarians: predominantly small groups of ogres or > gnolls leading huge tribes of kobolds (hobkobolds too? :) ). Absolutely! > -NW Forest (Southern): Giants hostile to Alphatia and Esterhold, developed > "close" civilization. Either one large nation, or rival ones of various > races (I prefer the latter, for variety, even developed giants are still > going to fight - and we could throw in some new types of giants.) Should this be kind of fused with MNepal, placing the more peaceful giants there, while leaving the others here? Patrick --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Explorer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I was thinking of something later, so that the arrival of foreigners in ca. >1015 will parallel the arrival of the Portuguese, Spanish, and English in >China during the 17th century. But Tang is a possibility as well. >Probably the MChina group should vote once we break off. > Speaking of this, maybe for something sort of funny we should have a Known World explorer who continued west from the Savage Coast, named Farco Folo. P P l u justice = (free-willed cooperation) * ---------------- centralization^2 David Melik, an OMOGATFFGGKUS Mystaran darwin@nwinfo.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Also, while I'm actually writing this, I'd like to suggest a narrative > device to help with the description of the societies. I recall reading, > at one time, perhaps in one of the fan-written 'net.Almanacs', about an > explorer (possibly Thyatian?) who was going to try to circumnavigate the > world. It seems to me that a ship and crew such as this would be the > perfect opportunity for the Known World to first discover the lands we'll > be creating. We could do Princess Ark-style overviews of the countries, > then flesh out the details the crew wouldn't have seen. It's still > nothing definite, as an idea, but it's a thought. I think we should do this. Perhaps, though, it would make more sense to have Alphatian narrators. > And one final thing: it occurs to me that, even with MKorea as a stepping > stone, there's a fair distance between Chung-Eun and Jikushiru (which I > *will* find a good translation for if it kills me!), possibly enough to > make them not really prone to interaction or cultural influences. > Therefore, might I make a suggestion: along the southern and southeastern > coast of Skothar, various factors have come into play and created an > extremely fast current and accompanying winds. They're treacherous to > sail, but if you read the currents right and navigate skillfully, travel > time moving along it (say, from Chung-Eun to Jikushiru, or, at night when > the current reverses, vice-versa) is greatly reduced. This might also be > another factor in Chung-Eun's isolation - traveling perpendicular to the > current is not easy, and if there's a treacherous barrier reef on the > south side of the current to channel it appropriately, it might be quite > hazardous to navigate past it... This is a GREAT idea! It would mean either extending MKorea or placing little outposts along the coast in opportune spots. After all, even with this awesome current, the voyage should still take at least a week, especially when you consider that they can only travel about 10 hours a day. This should also include some sort of powerful magic, perhaps including artifacts from the spheres of time (water) and thought (wind). I know very little about Korea, but would it work if it was dominated by Druids who help move the current along? This would also mean that Chung-Eun and Jiku-Shiru would have to have very skilled shipwrights. Has anyone seen Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory? There's a great scene in there where the group is riding in a boat going terribly fast down a dark, narrow tunnel with Willy Wonka acting freaky. I just had a vision of the journey into the night being something akin to this. Speaking of which, which way should night be? I guess I would have to say that the journey from Zyxl to Tangor Bay should probably be during the night, since Jiku-Shiru would logically have had some contact with the outside. Foreigners would see that the current is not navigable up the Skothar coast (at least during the day when they look) and would then usually turn back or go southwest to Davania. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chung-Eun New Year ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, given that the Chinese New Year is coming up, I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about MChina's equivalent. I would propose, given the approximate date of the real world Chinese New Year, that MChina's New Year begin on Vatermont 1 -- the second month of the Thyatian calendar. We could probably use the Chinese month names, adjusted as necessary for the actual Mystaran seasons. For the year names, we could make appropriate substitutions of mythological monsters for animals -- for example, the Mystaran counterpart to the upcoming Year of the Ox could be the Year of the Gorgon. Also, could somebody give the rest of us a quick run-down of how the Chinese New Year is typically celebrated? I recall seeing scenes of parades through Chinatown, but I know practically nothing else of what is involved in the celebrations. Finally, what are some of the other major Chinese holidays that could be translated into MChina? David Melik ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just a note, this is very long. I got carried away a little. Chinese month names are quite simple, First Moon, Second Moon, etc. It would probably more appropriate to push back the Chinese New Year a little bit, as it is supposed to be near spring (I think it suppose to be in the mid point between winter and spring solstice, but don't quote me on that). The actual name for Chinese New Year is the Spring Festival. So it might be better to place it at Vatermont 14 or Thaumont 1. I don't have any reference ready, but how does Mystrian moon cycle works. Based on Chinese lunar calendar each month is 29 or 30 days with full moon at the 15th and new moon at the 1st. Every several year a leap month is added sometime during the year to even off the calendar. In Chinese lunar Calendar the first three month is the spring, next three the summer, etc. The celebration for CNY starts at December, where family salts and cures meats (December is also called the "cure month"). The Chinese view of CNY is somewhat similar to American on Thanksgiving where the family suppose to be together. On NY's eve the tradition is to stay awake past the midnight. On NY's day people go around visiting friends and family to wishing happy new year. Elders give children money inside red envelops. The traditional food include dumplings, year cake (a sticky rice cake which is either cook as a dish or in a soup or made sweet as a desert, the cured meats, sausages, and fish. The fish is important because of a pun. In place where fish is rare, people sometimes use a wooden substitution just for the show. Lots o' fireworks, lion dance, dragon dance and stuff. People generally wear new cloth at this day. Another tradition is write the word "spring" on a piece of red paper (red is a color of joy in China) and stick it up side down on the door, another pun symbolize the coming of spring. On the both sides of front door a a special 2 line poem is also written on red paper and posted up, generally with something on the top of the door that goes with it. There are probably quite a bit more stuff, but this is all I can think of at the top of my head right now. Oh, gambling is quite common on NYD and children is often allow to drink a little bit. The celebration generally continual for another couple of days. On third day of Jan, the wives visit their own family, and people generally go back to work on the 4th of Jan. But the official end of CNY celebration comes at the 15th of Jan., the Lantern Festival, where people walk around the street carrying a lantern. The city also held a lantern show along with the rich families. The rich family also held riddle competition and give out prizes for people answers the riddles correctly. The food to eat on this day is a small round rice cake ball , sometime with sweet stuffing inside, in a sweet soup. The ball symbolize the wholeness and the completeness of the family. Oh every household is suppose to have a kitchen god watch over them, and on Jan 2nd he is going back to heaven and report to the Celestial Emperor about the past year of the family. So some family put up the painting of the kitchen god and smear some sweet rice cake on the mouth to "sweet" up his report :). There are 3 major holiday during the year. First is the CNY/Spring Festival. The second on May 5th is called the "Righteous Noon" (the best translation I can think of) or more commonly known now as the Dragon Boat Festival. As the mid summer is approaching, people on this day take steps to protect themselves from the summers epidemics. Sulfur wine is drink to drive out the poison in the body. Red runes written on yellow paper is stuck on various places of the house to prevent the entering of evil sprites. The sulfur wine is greatly disliked by creature and sprites, and can force them turn back to their true form if they were in human form. Later this holiday took on some more meaning to mourn the death of a patriot poet. He jumped into a lake after his proposal to improve the nation was rejected by the emperor and got himself exiled. The people row out the lake try to rescue him, and failing that throw rice wrapped in bamboo leaves into the lake to feed the fish so they will not eat the body of the poet. This starts the tradition of the dragon boat race (where teams from different organization, county, etc. race a small long boat with a head of dragon carved in front). And eat rice wrapped in bamboo leaves. The third major holiday is the Mid-Autumn, which is on the 15th of Aug. This is the day there suppose to have the brightest full moon. Basically this is a day that people takes a break after the fall harvest. The people watch the moon, eat moon cake(a round sweet cake). There are another story associate with this day which I will tell if people are interested. Beside the three major holidays, there are a bunch of minor ones. Some I can think of are the Clear moon/Ghost day, which is on 15 of July. July is believed where the gate to underworld is open and ghost can walk on earth. On this month people is generally careful what they doing so they won't have an accident and became a substitute for one of the "good brothers" But on Clear Moon people will go to the grave of their ancestor and held a small ceremony there. There are also minor holidays on Sept. 9th and Dec. 8th, but nothing too interesting happen there. Birthday and Accension day of some popular gods are also celebrated big time depend on region. Sorry this post is so long. Hopefully people find it useful. If people want more detail on any more of the stuff, feel free to ask. -- Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Anyway, given that the Chinese New Year is coming up, I was wondering if >anyone had any ideas about MChina's equivalent. I would propose, given the >approximate date of the real world Chinese New Year, that MChina's New >Year begin on Vatermont 1 -- the second month of the Thyatian calendar. I think this idea has a lot of merit. TSR always did try to make their places match up with real-world equivalencies, and this is a great example of a way to do it. We should also consider that the YEAR for MChina should be considerably later than the Thyatian year -- for example, we're sitting at 1997 and I think that the current Chinese Calendar is somewhere in the 3400's or so. >We could probably use the Chinese month names, adjusted as necessary >for the actual Mystaran seasons. For the year names, we could make >appropriate substitutions of mythological monsters for animals -- for >example, the Mystaran counterpart to the upcoming Year of the Ox could be >the Year of the Gorgon. Do you really think we have to make the MChina "Years" mythological? The Northland's Gaz presents the Norse Rune System with meanings very close to their "real" meanings (with a few modifications). What's wrong with having Cats, Monkeys, Dogs, Oxen and Horses? Perhaps we could just modify a few -- based on what each real animal year represents we could pick a few where a mythological creature would fit into the same role. >Finally, what are some of the other major Chinese holidays that could be >translated into MChina? I don't know off hand, but my Mother teaches English as A Second language and about half her students are Chinese, so she is very familiar with a lot of their traditional celebrations. I'll put out some feelers and see what I can come up with. (To be honest, I'm finding the idea of figuring out the calendar and related holidays to be quite appealing. I would definitely be interested in working in this area of development, as well as working on the development of Oriental Style Dragon's) Jenni A. Merrifield -=> strawberryJAMM <=- -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ <------------------------------------------------------------------> God created Light. Then Earth, Vegetables, Animals, Man and Woman. Then God started to think: "I should create things *I* like!" And God said: "Let There Be Strawberries!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > I think this idea has a lot of merit. TSR always did try to make their > places match up with real-world equivalencies, and this is a great example > of a way to do it. We should also consider that the YEAR for MChina > should be considerably later than the Thyatian year -- for example, > we're sitting at 1997 and I think that the current Chinese Calendar is > somewhere in the 3400's or so. Chinese don't really count year like that. The common way to count year is by either the start of the dynasty or by years the emperor has been sitting on the throne. For example the 45th year of Tang, or the 32nd year of emperor Chian-Loon. But this might be difficult to do for us, as we need to have a pretty detailed MChina history to actually use that. > Do you really think we have to make the MChina "Years" mythological? > The Northland's Gaz presents the Norse Rune System with meanings very > close to their "real" meanings (with a few modifications). What's wrong > with having Cats, Monkeys, Dogs, Oxen and Horses? Perhaps we could Umm, no cats. The twelve animals are in order, rat, ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, goat, monkey, chicken, dog, pig. There are also a story go with the ordering (I guess Chinese really like stories), but basically those animal compete in a race and that was how they ended up. I would like to modify it so it would be different in the game world. And a little more about Chinese Calendar. The calendar is actually in a 60 year cycle. The name of each year is a combine of 1 of the ten "sky stems" and 1 of 12 "earth branches." Each year both part counts forward by one. The 12 earth branches are commonly associated with the 12 animal but they have more official names. Each 2 of the sky stems is given an elemental association. In Chinese belief, there are 5 elements, Gold/Metal, Wood, Water, Fire, Earth. I will suggest we fudge it a bit and say Wood is equal to the Elemental Air (as the branch of the tree is extended towards the air :), and Gold to be Prime. Anyway back to the years, so each year is associated with an element and an animal, such as Fire Horse, Wood Ox, Gold Goat, etc. and are commonly referred that way in riddles, prophesies, etc. Chinese day is divided in 12 periods, each 2 hours long. Each period use the name of the earth branches. The first period starts at 1am, so that is when a Chinese day starts officially. And might be fun to use it to cause some confusion to PCs not knowing that as when Chinese refer to midnight it would actually be 1. Each period is further break down into 4 segments. Animals are not used to refer to periods of a day, but we can use it just to keep things simple. Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider c --------------------------------------------------------------------------- As to the "no cats" reference -- I do have information on that. I read somewhere that the Year of the Rabbit used to be called the Year of the Cat -- and in fact I saw a place mat at a Chinese restaurant that made reference to cats when in fact people born in the Year of the Rabbit were meant. But I must admit that I am totally mystified as to why two such dissimilar animals would ever be associated with each other in this way. David Knott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hum, I never heard that. The story I heard is that cats were not that popular, or even introduced in China when the order was set. The folk story is that the rat tricked the cat so the cat finished 13th in the race, which is also the reason cat hates rat. I will try to check up on the cat and rabbit thing. Problem 7-11 of Fogler's Elements of Chemical Reaction Engineering Consider the following 2 reactions: | John Yu (1) healthy person ---> ill | scy2g@virginia.edu (2) ill ---> death | UVA Material Science Dept. Although reaction given in equation 2 is normally consider completely irreversible, reverse reaction has been reported to occur. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Timelines ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a very rough timeline. Once again, it's only my suggestion, and I'm not even very sure of it. BC 1900- Jennites begin moving out of the plains, colonizing area around Tangor Bay. 1200- First emperor of Chung-Eun crowned. 1100- Hinu reach Zyxl. Refugees arrive in MSiberia from Sindh, bringing with them worship of Rohindhartha. 1000- Alphatian Landfall 850- Emperor of Chung-Eun begins to follow Rohindhartha, encourages trade with the outside world. 750- Jennite plainsmen sweep over Chung-Eun and place their Khan on the throne. Refugees from Chung-Eun found MMalaysia and Jiku-Shiru. 600- Jennites have been absorbed into Chung-Eun's culture; they once again war with the plainsmen. 500- Chung-Eun's contact with Alphatia is disastrous, they withdraw within their borders and begin extreme isolationism. 450- Great Wall (whatever it is) is constructed to keep out the Jennites. 350- Isolationism is less extreme, MKorea founded. 350-present- Chung-Eun undergoes many changes in power, with plainsmen and between East and West China (the Mystaran equivalents of North and South China), but the nation remains mostly unchanged. AC 0- first king of MThailand crowned. Present- Is it 1000, 1010, 1013, what? My own opinion would be to begin at 1000 and describe the events since then. This obviously leaves huge gaps of time to stick anything we want in. We could also push many of the events further ahead. Please let me know what you think:) Patrick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I haven't gone thought this in detail yet, but I was thinking that when it comes to our timeline of event we might want to check things out with Daniel Debois, who isn't on the MOrient "Committee", but who has made an excellent compilation of all the existing Gazetteer Timeline information (at least I think it was Daniel). These time lines are available from the Mystaral-l mailing list, but I was thinking that he would be intimately familiar with them, having put them together, and might be able to help us fix certain events in time in a tidy way. We obviously want to choose a timeline that will mesh in as well as possible with existing data. This is, of course, just a suggestion. Does anyone else think it is worth while? I know that I it is difficult for me to tell if a proposed timeline of events fits in well with existing TSR events, but perhaps more of you are familiar with the necessary information. Anyway, I'd also like to say that I'm willing to volunteer for the job of contacting Daniel with our proposed timeline information and asking him if he'd be interested in helping in this small way. Jenni -- Jenni A. M. Merrifield <=-=> strawberry@jamm.com strawberryJAMM Designs <=-=> http://www.jamm.com/ Personal Home Page <=-=> http://www.jamm.com/jenni/home.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Religion/Philosophy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MOrient Gang: Somebody was talking about the Confucianism, Shintoism, and various other local Asian "religions". I don't know a /lot/ about these, but what I do know is that they aren't so much /religions/ as /philosophies/. In particular, I seem to recall that they are not necessarily associated with a particular "god". Perhaps these would be better served by special Mystic orders. If we did make them "religions" then we would have to explain where/how the Clerics of these religions received their spell compliments (which, I believe, are usually made available by the Immortal under worship.) If we made the Mystic orders, we could also try developing subtly different forms of Mystic hand fighting for each group. As a real world example, Taoist Tai Chi is an "Exercise" that was developed from a Taoist form of Martial Arts (in fact, it essentially consists of fighting moves done in a known pattern and in slow motion). Most Official Gazetteers take basic, "Cyclopedia" player character rules and develop them in new and different ways (like the Rangers in Thyatis, the Merchants in Darokin, or the Merchant Princes in Minrothad). This could be one area where we could do the same. Jenni A. M. Merrifield <==> strawberryJAMM Designs strawberry@jamm.com <==> http://www.jamm.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > If we did make them "religions" then we would have to explain where/how > the Clerics of these religions received their spell compliments (which, > I believe, are usually made available by the Immortal under worship.) This is an excellent point. I think mystics should play a major role in these religions. We could also do something like TSR did for the Churches of Karameikos and Traladara, with no specific immortals, but rather the philosophy providing spells. Something like AD&D priests who receive spells from their alignment. We don't need to have clerics for these philosophies, of course, but if we had an MConfucius somewhere in history, he at least would probably have become an immortal. Also, clerics don't necessarily have to "worship" their immortals. Buddhists, for example, do not worship any gods, but we have at least tentatively agreed on the immortal Rohindhartha. Maybe MOriental immortals can act more as guides than gods. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> If we made the Mystic orders, we could also try developing subtly >>different forms of Mystic hand fighting for each group. As a real world >>example, Taoist Tai Chi is an "Exercise" that was developed from a Taoist form of Martial Arts (in fact, it essentially consists of fighting >>moves done in a known pattern and in slow motion). Most Official Gazetteers >>take basic, "Cyclopedia" player character rules and develop them in new >>and different ways (like the Rangers in Thyatis, the Merchants in Darokin, >>or the Merchant Princes in Minrothad). This could be one area where >>we could do the same. Yes, that's a good idea. I'd like to do also something with prana/chi, and new ways of magic. Perhaps we could make the mystic more of an "open" class, if you know what I mean. Maybe all mystics have one thing in common, like skill/power slots and/or prana/chi slots(like spell slots)/points, and beyond this, what they learn to do depends on what philosophy they follow and what their interests and way of life are. Of course, we'd need to make general stats for different ones, for the DM's use and maybe to guide the player. However, there can also be mystics not connected to any particular school. People on earth learn many martial arts and even earn black belts in more than one... Whose to say we can't have a generic mystic just like a generic mage. The only difference is mages have a wide range of choices. Perhaps we could take all the abilities from D&D mystics and the various AD&Dx monks, and pool them, add to them, make a system for them. The mystic and the monk are cool, and deserve a better treatment than they get, which I think sucks compared to how mages, other classes are so developed. They don't need to be a sub-class. They're different enough to be their own. Well, I'm sure you know what I'm saying, and I'll stop going off on a tangent. Yes, we should do the same thing, and MOrient is the perfect place to do this. David Melik, an OMOGATFFGGKUS Mystaran ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elves on Skothar -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- About the topic of elves on Skothar, I think you have two possible explanations: 1. they are descendants of the e'aar, the winged elves (Skothar is not that far from Immortals' Arm, if geography is not an opinion and Mystara is not flat). I don't know if you planned the elves to be winged ones, but this is the first hypothesis, members of an expedition party to find a long lost artifact or something else that lost contact with the e'aar fatherland and decided to settle in Skothar 2. they are descendants of the sylvan elves (elves from the Sylvan Realm), that fled across the sea instead of using Mealiden's Rainbow Path when the forces of Moorkroft overthrew the realm. Other possibility is that they fled from the Sylvan Realm because their leader did not get along with Ilsundal and so his clan moved to another region (across the sea) to find the lost brethren who had settled near Blackmoor or for other reasons. 3. elves coming from another dimension or reality or plane. In this case on Skothar (as opposite to the rest of Mystara), elves and humans could breed the fabled half-elves, that cannot be breed normally by Mystaran elves and Mystaran humans (according to Gaz5) these are my hypothesis, feel free to reply me personally at dalmonte@dsc.unibo.it DM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 Kaviyd@aol.com wrote: > Nothing in "Elves of Alfheim" mentions anything about Elves on the continent > of Skothar. My guess is that any such Elves would be unrelated to the > Alfheim Elves -- perhaps they are distant relatives of the Shiye Lawr Elves > of Alphatia? In any case, they probably have some similarities to the > "Spirit Folk" of "Oriental Adventures". Now -- if somebody on the > MOrient team has access to whatever legends these "Spirit Folk" are > based on, we can really do some great things in describing them. They could very easily be an earlier migration, from Vulcania, that ended up in Skothar. There are literally any number of points at which the elves could have ended up in Skothar. Another suggestion might be that the elves of Skothar are somehow related to the N'djatwa- the elf/ogres of Davania. They seem rather oriental in flavor, and might blend in well in the MOrient. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- << Another suggestion might be that the elves of Skothar are somehow related to the N'djatwa- the elf/ogres of Davania. They seem rather oriental in flavor, and might blend in well in the MOrient. >> They do resemble Ogre Magi, don't they? Another idea to consider -- Haldemar negotiated an alliance between N'djatwa and Alphatia. Skotharians in general seem to dislike Alphatians. So any race that would ally with them must be an evil race, right? Of course, the fact that they actually are cannibals gives that idea some weight. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Martial Arts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know if you posted these or not, but I'd be interested in seeing them. I'm working on a martial art styles thing too. I think it was the mystic rules in the old Masters set I was reading, which said that fighting styles correspond to elements, and I thought it would be interesting to assign actual martial arts to these different elements. I made combinations of the elements so there could be more styles. (Then after reading WoTI I did sphere and class combos too, since I eventually used class combos in OD&D.) First I looked in the Manual of the Planes, but it had negative and positive planes, which I don't use, and it didn't combine them all, so I made my own. Thinking back to the RC planes chapter, AFAIK the elemental planes aren't touching each other, but if they were, these new elements could be the spaces between them, or other planes between them, but they wouldn't even have to be planes. I think they really need some improvement, so that's also why I've posted them. Any ideas? Oh yeah, the charts don't exactly line up with the others, it's in alphabetical order, so if you want to find out the right elements on the other charts it'd have to be looked up. Anyway, here's the charts. Elements Air Earth Fire Water Air Air Dust Smoke Water Earth Dust Earth Magma Ooze Fire Smoke Magma Fire Steam Water Vapor Ooze Steam Water Void (corresponds to entropy. some ancient civilizations did consider it an element.) Martial Art Styles (this *really needs improvement and additions - *WARNING* I know this is *not accurate* since I don't know much about this... it's just thoughts & ideas. also maybe we should substitute the 4 basic types with actual styles) Defensive Offensive Throws Wrestling Defensive Defensive Ninjitsu Jujitsu Offensive Ninjitsu Offensive Sumo Throws Wrestling Wrestling Throws street fighting (corresponds to entropy, since it seems they'd use any method to kill...) Classes (OK - so they're more like titles, so what.) Cleric Mage Rogue Warrior Cleric Cleric Theurgist Mystic Paladin Mage Theurgist Mage Bard Ranger Rogue Mystic Bard Rogue Thug Warrior Paladin Ranger Thug Warrior Ultimist (a combo of everything (from Polyhedron mag.) which is too munchkin so, they're bad, so they're entropic. Seriously though, a highly toned-down version of this could be interesting) THEurgist is as in THEology, I thought of it myself but then read somewhere theurgist is an actual word. Anyone know what the definition is and what it would be for rpg's? You could substitute Forester for Ranger, but I like ranger from the roguelike computer game Moria. I use the Mystic class as is, but I guess if it went on the chart that's where it would go. I guess monk would work too. Thug is aka headsman, the monster from the RC. Seems appropriate for that class. A friend of mine also suggested bandit or brigand. Now... the spheres. I don't think I'd actually use extra ones, but I think this is just something that's maybe useful to look at, when thinking about immortals, quests for immortality, (maybe even with transferring AD&D cleric spell spheres to OD&D spheres?) etc. Maybe it's not useful but here it is anyway. Actually it did help me when I made immortals for Daneme, my own world, even though I only used the 5 spheres. Energy Matter Thought Time Energy Energy War Magic Power Matter War Matter Creativity Change Thought Magic Creativity Thought Wisdom Time Power Change Wisdom Time I think I did one for colors corresponding to elements too, but that's more complicated, and I'd have to figure out how it goes again even though it's written down, and I have an essay to do, and maybe that would be getting too far off the Mystara subject so that's definitely enough for now. David Melik -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MEthiopia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's some notes I took directly from Dragon #200. It's sentence fragments and may have typos, since it was time-consuming to record even this way, so I hope we have some discussion on this eventually. It looks like we could use these for MEthiopia, with some research, discussion, & modifications. I know we may not be doing the area for a while, but I'm sending my issue to a friend, as I'm done with it, so I wanted to get this out there so we can throw it around. I think maybe we should also base MEthiopia on that ancient African civilization on earth that was in roughly the same area if I'm correct. I don't mean Egypt. It's a major one that is included in history books along with the other "cradles of civilization", so there might be more information on it than Ethiopia. source: "Magic from the Gods", by Michael John Wybo II, in Dragin Magazine #200. Baule Diviner advisors to the city dwellers of MEthiopia. read omens revealed through the elements (spheres? since the article says African magic is possible by the will of the gods... or more malign creatures) by the immortal of fate. dress in red sleeveless wraps and shave their heads. wear gold bangles & neck rings. worship fate, do not seek to change her will. advise their patrons on how they have incurred fate's (dis)pleasure, seldom tell future except in vague riddles or analogies. skills required: astrology, astronomy, observation; skills recommended: dagger staff, animal lore, direction sense, tracking, weather sense spells: greater divination, elemental clerical benefits:+1 reaction in city due to respect for their wisdom Bokor(Sorcerer) evil sorcerer who uses dangerous magic without aid of gods wisdom (or maybe from entropic imms) source of learning and power are Orish-Nla, evil denizens of underworld. unpredictable and despised magic. hunted by countrymen because they fear the wrath of the Zande, whose purpose is to destroy Bokor. homeless wanderers who study their art for power. required skills: spellcraft, recommended skills: spear, dagger, bow, alertness, cooking, direction sense, fire building, hunting, endurance, tracking, set snares. spells: wild mages, no elemental spells, they despise Bokor (again this points to spheres.) chaos clerical sphere (entropy?) benefits: D6 HD hindrances: imms despise Bokor so they suffer disadvantages. 1. curse which changes daily, each Bokor rolls on a table that includes Bokor's true form and level+1 random forms. still may cast spells, the rest like polymorph spell. 2. death has refused Bokor entry to realm of dead, they become undead, type depends on level, but 12+ he becomes an Orish-Nla (resembles shadow fiend), spell abilities according to undead type. polymorph still in effect after death, still retains true form abilities, but the forms are undead too. constantly haunted by Zande with women, if true profession is known, -2 reaction. Houngan worshippers of masculine side of spirit world, the animus (Zug or Zul on Mystara is my educated guess, since MEthiopia could have the Afridhi or whatever people) concerned with lore and appeasement of spirit world. appease angry, hostile, aggressive, destructive, etc., natures of spirits. will promote a war if spirit wants it, or unavoidable, or for own purposes, when they'd convince people spirits willed it. (depends on align.) some protect communities from spirits, others use position to further personal standing at expense of community, who often put up with it since it's their only protection from spirits. skills recommended: spear, club, mace, bowyer/fletcher, endurance, weaponsmithing. spells: magely and priestly necromancy, (maybe AD&D shamanism? I wouldn't know. anyone have the supplement? We could use it if spirits are important in this culture. For Mystara I'd rather keep the OD&D definition of Shaman, it's the info that counts.) benefits: (for AD&D may use warrior group proficiencies without spending extra slots, IMO "groups" is a lame unrealistic rule. if you want to learn something and have the time, IQ, teacher or other method, you probably learn it, dang it. should we stick to OD&D skills, but translate AD&D ones?) hindrances: must sacrifice "value" of one large domestic animal to spirits per level each time they increase a level. Mambo female equiv. of houngan. worship feminine side of spirit world (anima, Zug or Zul in Mystara) also concerned w/lore & appeasement. draw on compromising, persuasive, healing, but often deceitful aspect of spirits to protect community or for own ends. wise women of community. would rather council diplomacy or guile than war. calming influence on hot-blooded community members. recommended skills: dagger, staff, sling, artistic ability, cooking, dancing, musical instrument, weaving, singing, spells & hindrances: as per houngan benefits: can charm up to 1/2 her level in HD of males per day (as charm person) must be one at a time, each target must have 8+ INT for it to work. takes a turn per attempt. Zande fearsome, teeth & lips dyed red w/berry juice. called by gods to seek & punish heresy, especially Bokor, whom they hunt down & kill. can be extremely harsh in punishment of villages & individuals who harbor them, even unknowingly. common in lands of pygmies of central African jungles. often accompanied by male warriors who slay Bokor's undead form after Zande kills mortal form (possibly Benin hunters from Dragon #195 "Real Warriors Ride Elephants!" article, in which case "Species foe" as per ranger ability, is undead.) Often as hated as Bokor they hunt, but populace fears them enough to cooperate out of fear of retribution. many witches have been slain by villagers angry for crop destruction from cure though. Sometimes use power & fear to further their own selfish & ambitious ends. harbingers of "justice" and vengeance (infernal lawful imposed order IMO). Zande always female, and as I thought, must be lawful (but may be good, neutral or evil.) skills required: short sword, herbalism, recommended: spear, bow, sling, cooking, brewing, healing, intimidation, observation. spells: enchantment school, also clerical combat sphere. benefits: can cast curse on Bokor or other heretics, and those who give them succor. heretics include foreign spellcasters/priests. can include crop withering, or /sign of interdiction/, which is specialized /wizard mark/ that is visible, cannot be removed even with dispel magic (which should be debatable.) it shows the wearer is a heretic )-2 to reaction) always allowed saving throw vs. death magic to avoid curse. may bond w/warrior companions, can be done once in witch's lifetime. allows 2-way empathy, clair-everything once a day 1D10 turns, ability for witch to lay compulsion on warrior 1/day w/no save as per suggestion spell. warrior gets 1 more hp/lev & +2/hit & dmg when defending bond-mate. both must be willing participants, once formed it's never broken. if warrior dies, witch suffers as per a death of familiar. if either is wounded while sense-link is on, both suffer damage, both save vs. paralysis or link is broken. can be broken by mutual assent. can't begin again for 24 hours. (that math doesn't sound quite right...) hindrances: generate lots of respect, +1 to all "positive reactions", also fear and "negative reactions" have a -1 penalty (is this some weird AD&D2, I thought there's just plain reactions.) BTW there's some art in the article too, so if we want to use this and anyone else has dragon #200, if you photocopy me the art I could make a drawing for our project(no one else has mentioned whether they're artists and would do art for MOrient or not :( ), or do it yourself if your an artist David Melik -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jikushiru and Emperor Dragons -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The message has been sent - sorry for forgetting about it for so long. :-) As far as groups go, I'd definitely like to volunteer to be in the Jikushiru group - I know a fair bit about China, but more about Japan, and most of my ideas are forming around Jikushiru anyway. It does occur to me, though, that we'll still need to coordinate things between groups, especially the events concerning both - for instance, the proposed defeat of the Emperor of Chung-Eun by the First Empress, Himiko, requires there to be a reason for the Emperor to invade Jikushiru in his true Dragon form, and that the event be the end of his 'dynasty.' But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, hopefully. Just to get in an obligatory bit of original content, I'd like to get some opinions on just what period or equivalent people think Jikushiru should be in as of the 'current' time. I personally think it would be most interesting to have a state not quite analogous to any in Japan's history, but close, with appropriate legendary/historical resonances. Specifically... For quite some time now, perhaps generations, the Empress has been little more than a figurehead sovereign. Politics in the court and between the great families of the land have reduced her power to nearly nothing - she still has her ceremonial duties, and her duties as the official head of the MShinto religion, and furthermore some of the nobles still pay courteous respect to her opinions, but by and large the days of great Imperial power are past. For quite some time now, the daimyos - heads of households, with armies of samurai and other warriors at their command - have feuded among themselves for land, power, wealth, or honor. While one might not exactly call Jikushiru a war-ravaged land, it has had its difficulties, to be sure. But now, one of the daimyos, with the Empress's blessing, has managed to unite most of them under her rule, with the title of shogun. (The word means, roughly, general, or commander of the army. The full title was originally 'Seii Taishogun,' or 'Barbarian-Suppressing High General,' referring to the office's original duties of suppressing Hinu unrest in the north.) Technically, the shogun rules only as a delegate of the Empress - holding only whatever powers she chooses to grant - but in practice, the Empress has granted rather broad powers, and it is expected that it would be difficult for her to deny a request of the shogun. Fortunately, the shogun is a wise and just woman. She has worked only for the greater good of Jikushiru, and has been more than fair to the just daimyos, while showing the greedy, aggressive, and corrupt ones no mercy. The arts have flourished under her reign, as has a certain amount of trade and interaction with foreign cultures. The problem is that the shogun is dying. She has perhaps a few years left in her yet, perhaps less - but all the efforts of the best MShinto priests and priests of Rohindartha have been to no avail in curing her illness. And the likely successors to the shogunate look far from as promising as she was - a strict, insular isolationist willing to let the daimyos fight among themselves in the name of tradition, an aggressive expansionist who wants to smash the last resisting daimyos and provinces, then lead Jikushiru on a war of conquest into MManchuria, MKorea, and perhaps even beyond, and a few others who would be more likely to let the shogunate collapse completely than sustain it. Jikushiru is currently a dynamic, growing, exciting place to live... but its fate is shrouded in haze... Any comments or further ideas? Any fellow developers interested in becoming Jikushiru specialists? -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First, I just had to chime in and say that I think that David's and Scott's ideas using 'shiru' as the original hinu's word meaning "Shire" is inspired. I also really liked Scott's 'mini-history' for Jikushiru. Lets go with it! Second, I've been giving some thought to the idea of "Oriental Dragons", who would, of course, be the type of dragons which rule Chung-Eun. In doing so, I've re-read the Dragon entries in the Cyclopedia. If the "Oriental Dragons" are a splinter-species of real dragons, then in order for the Emperor to appear to be human, he would have to be old enough and powerful enough to (a) be magic casters and (b) be able to cast Polymorph Self. This is a fourth level spell. Also, who ever is the "heir apparent" would also have to be in a high enough age bracket and have been given the Polymorph Self spell (probably given to them by the reining Emperor). This isn't necessarily a problem, but it is a special consideration to keep in mind. Another idea I had was that the "Oriental Dragons" are actually another variety of Drake, so I plan to look over the Drake entry in "Tales of The Wee Folk" (PC1 I think) as soon as I can visit my friend who owns it. I see some positive things associated with this idea: 1) Drakes can automatically take the shape of a particular humanoid form, so there is no requirement in knowing 4th level spells. 2) In light of our discussions to use the Fairy Court as a "Celestial Court", Drakes as Emperors would seem to fit in well. (Wasn't the Chinese Emperor considered a Living God?) One disadvantage is that (I think) Drakes are considerably smaller than normal-sized dragons, which would make the claim that the Emperor is a /Dragon/ seem a bit far-fetched.... The third Idea I had was to create a special type of creature which is very similar to a Dragon, but has the natural ability to polymorph, either into anything or into one form. Many adjustments would have to be made to ensure that this new "pseudo" dragon type wasn't too powerful -- giving a polymorph ability to a true dragon without reducing some of its other regular powers has the potential to severely unbalance the game. This new creature could be similar enough that the belief that the Emperor /is/ a dragon would be reasonable, but different enough that they aren't nearly as powerful as a "true" dragon of the same size/age/whatever (though they should still be more powerful than regular humans and most adventurers). Since the "Dragon as Emperor" idea is such a strong one with us, I think this needs to be considered more seriously. Comments? Jenni -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Second, I've been giving some thought to the idea of "Oriental Dragons", > who would, of course, be the type of dragons which rule Chung-Eun. In > doing so, I've re-read the Dragon entries in the Cyclopedia. If the "Oriental > Dragons" are a splinter-species of real dragons, then in order for the Emperor > to appear to be human, he would have to be old enough and powerful enough to > (a) be magic casters and (b) be able to cast Polymorph Self. This is a fourth > level spell. Also, who ever is the "heir apparent" would also have to be in > a high enough age bracket and have been given the Polymorph Self spell > (probably given to them by the reining Emperor). This isn't necessarily a > problem, but it is a special consideration to keep in mind. True, but I think it rather helps if the Emperor has to be one of the older, more powerful dragons. You wouldn't want just any hatchling on the Dragon Throne, after all. And also, I expect that, if we simply make the restriction, as has been suggested, that no human may sit upon the Dragon Throne, then we could see any number of rulers for shorter times - I'd expect a few drakes and perhaps shapeshifted magic animals taking the throne for certain dynasties. I'm partial to the idea of a humanoid invasion from the steppes actually sweeping through Chung-Eun and putting one of their own on the throne, a gnoll perhaps. If this seems far-fetched, remember that Ghengis Khan did much the same, and it was in fact Khublai Khan's palace, which he ruled China from, that inspired Coleridge's poem "Xanadu.." -- Scott Johnson | zagyg@io.com | This space intentionally left blank. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Loose Ends -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Several things have come up regarding my map of Skothar that I think the entire group should discuss: 1) We still have not yet reached a consensus on the location of Chung-Eun. I placed what I felt was a good location on the map and gave my reasons for it, but if the group decides, we can certainly move it. 2) Are we making a new MIndia on Skothar or not? 3) We MUST decide why the outside world has not heard of the MOrient before. IMO, it should be a number of factors: Minaean Pirates, barbarians on all sides, and some sort of underwater culture (or cultures) should thrive in the waters from the Gulf of Tangor to around where I located MKorea. They might allow ships of the Oriental nations to sail through, but they should demand some sort of tribute for this passage, and they should attack foreign ships or those that won't pay immediately. 4) There are two forested areas near the Bay of Thorin in Northwest Skothar. Should there be some sort of culture established there? The migration map shows an Oltec colony south of this area in 3,000 BC and Jennites who began moving that direction in 1,900 BC, but since this area is so different from the Steppes where the Jennites thrive, maybe it has evolved its own unique culture. I think these four questions should be addressed, we should finalize a basic map, and we should agree on basic nation descriptions before we begin to break up into smaller groups:) Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Several things have come up regarding my map of Skothar that I think the >entire group should discuss: >1) We still have not yet reached a consensus on the location of Chung-Eun. >I placed what I felt was a good location on the map and gave my reasons for >it, but if the group decides, we can certainly move it. I think further north and west for Chung Eun would be good. >2) Are we making a new MIndia on Skothar or not? Hrm, I don't think that was part of the original idea. But if the that's what people would like to do, although I think it would be rather redundant.... >3) We MUST decide why the outside world has not heard of the MOrient before. >IMO, it should be a number of factors: Minaean Pirates, barbarians on all >sides, and some sort of underwater culture (or cultures) should thrive in >the waters from the Gulf of Tangor to around where I located MKorea. They >might allow ships of the Oriental nations to sail through, but they should >demand some sort of tribute for this passage, and they should attack foreign >ships or those that won't pay immediately. I'd go for cultural factors rather than underwater creatures... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ><< 2) Are we making a new MIndia on Skothar or not? >> > >I am not sure that we need one -- we already have Sind and Hule on Brun >and the huge island of Shahjapur in the Hollow World. I think that yet >another MIndia would be redundant. I agree with this. >Also, I agree with your arguments for your location of MChina. It appears, >from what you said, that MChina is heavily forested in the same sense that >the eastern USA is -- you don't see an excessive amount of trees, but the >vegetation maps do show deciduous trees as the predominant vegetation. >In both cases, large numbers of trees were cut down to make way for >civilization. Am I near the mark here? Exactly. When I wrote that, I was thinking about mentioning the Eastern US or California as examples, but I decided it would just make the post longer and more confusing. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, its been a while since I've seen any new ideas, so: >>1) We still have not yet reached a consensus on the location of Chung-Eun. >>I placed what I felt was a good location on the map and gave my reasons for >>it, but if the group decides, we can certainly move it. >Also, I agree with your arguments for your location of MChina. >--David Knott(Kaviyd@aol.com) >>No thoughts on this matter. >--"George E. Hrabovsky" >I totally agree with Patrick. I like how he placed the nations on his map >--Gabriele Ferri >I think further north and west for Chung Eun would be good. >--Joe Duncan I haven't seen any other comments. Do we consider this a majority then, or what? >>>2) Are we making a new MIndia on Skothar or not? Overwhelmingly No. >>>3) We MUST decide why the outside world has not heard of the MOrient before. >What about spirits+barbarians+culture+underwater race? I think we need many >factors to explain why MChina hasn't been discovered yet, one or two is not >enough for a such big area... >--Gabriele Ferri This seems to be the most plausible and agreeable choice. We'll Make a bunch of reasons, and if you have a personal preference, use it more than the others. Patrick -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>1) We still have not yet reached a consensus on the location of Chung-Eun. >>>I placed what I felt was a good location on the map and gave my reasons for >>>it, but if the group decides, we can certainly move it. Sorry, I'll add my two bits here: I thought that Patrick's map was very well laid out. I think we should go with it for now. If we find we run into some problems because of the layout later, we can always fine tune it as we go along. >>>>2) Are we making a new MIndia on Skothar or not? >Overwhelmingly No. Ditto here. >>>>3) We MUST decide why the outside world has not heard of the MOrient >before. I like the idea of a collection of things keeping them from having been "found" before. It definitely gives a DM more options to choose from. One thing I've been meaning to ask -- what /time period/ are we developing for? I realize that Chung-Eun at least is more or less hidden during the time of the original Gazetteers, but the Island of Zyxl (Jiku-Shiru) is mentioned somewhere and so some of these countries must be trading partners with some known places (perhaps Sind, the Divinarchy of Yav or maybe even Minrothad?). Also, it is always possible for Shipwrecks (or other disasters) to occur, tossing PC's from any era into lands of unknown location... My personal preference is to start developing data for the original Gaz time period (~ 1000AC) -- partly because I have no knowledge /whatsoever/ about the WOI stuff. Besides, we can also develop that time period too! So, my proposal is that we develop some ancient history stuff (simple stuff, about migrations and general developments, like how the original Gaz's discuss history), begin by concentrating on places and events in the 1000AC period and then move on to the WOI time period as well. (Just my $0.02 worth) Jenni -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- << My personal preference is to start developing data for the original Gaz time period (~ 1000AC) -- partly because I have no knowledge /whatsoever/ about the WOI stuff. Besides, we can also develop that time period too! So, my proposal is that we develop some ancient history stuff (simple stuff, about migrations and general developments, like how the original Gaz's discuss history), begin by concentrating on places and events in the 1000AC period and then move on to the WOI time period as well. >> The effects of WoI on MORient would depend for the most part on how much contact they have had with the rest of the world in general and with Alphatia in particular. There are two points of interest for MOrient history after 1000 AC: 1) The "good" Immortals have divided into two hostile factions -- one consisting of Ixion, Valerias, Ilsundal, and Alphatia, and the other consisting of Rad, Vanya, Ka, Rafiel, Eiryndul, Asterius, Rathanos, and Korotiku. If Immortals of the first faction are worshipped in MOrient, then nothing much should happen -- that faction would not want the nations from Skothar to distract Alphatia from its war with various weste