I don't like the way immortals were done in the lighthouse, and I want to do something more 3.5E divine-ish.
Planes :
The Material Plane
The Ethereal Plane
The Elemental Planes
The Astral Plane
The Outer Planes
Dimensions :
The lower dimensions (normal dimensions, dimensions 1 through 4).
The fifth dimension (nightmare dimension).
The dimensional vortex.
Beyond.
Spheres of Power :
Matter - Law (Earth)
Energy - Chaos (Fire)
Time - Neutral (Water)
Thought - All alignments (Air)
Entropy - Evil (No element)
Damage Reduction and attack qualities :
Matter : Immortals of Matter have damage reduction epic and chaos. Their attacks are considered epic and lawful.
Energy : Immortals of Energy have damage reduction epic and law. Their attacks are considered epic and chaos.
Time : Immortals of Time have damage reduction epic and law and chaos. Their attacks are considered epic.
Thought : Immortals of Thought have damage reduction epic. Their attacks are considered epic and law and chaos.
Entropy : Immortals of Entropy have damage reduction epic and good. Their attacks are considered epic and evil.
Exalted beings replace epic with magic.
Notes
Immortals of Entropy resist attacks by other immortals, but find it hard to damage them in return.
Immortals of opposed spheres (Matter-Energy, Time-Thoguht) attack each other without any damage reduction.
Immortals of Matter and energy can damage immortals of thought, but may be damaged by them in return.
Immortals of time resist attacks by immortals of matter and energy, but find it hard to damage them in return.
Bias :
All outer planes have sphere biases - Friendly, Neutral or Hostile. A plane may not be Friendly to Entropy if it is Neutral or Friendly to any other spheres.
All known infinite planes (Material, Ethereal, Astral) are Neutral to Matter, Energy, Time and Thought and Hostile to Enthropy.
An elemental plane is Friendly to it's appropriate sphere, Hostile to the opposite element's appropriate sphere and toward Entropy, and Neutral to others.
No plane (inner or outer) can be Neutral to Enthropy, and most are Hostile.
The plane's biases affect immortal power use and regeneration on that plane. Exalted beings are affected, too. Mortals do not notice a plane's bias as such, but notice the planes other attributes, which are affected by it's bias.
Planes :
There is no single Negative Energy plane. Outer planes that are Friendly to Entropy may have similar attributes.
Mystaran undead are connected to such outer planes instead of the negative energy plane. If this plane is the home plane of an Entropic immortal, they may be that immortal's servitors (see below).
There is no single Positive Energy plane. Outer planes that are Friendly to Energy may have similar attributes.
There is no Plane of Shadow in the mystara cosmology. Spells or other special abilities drawing power from Shadow in D&D3.5E, draw power from the outer planes or the nightmare dimension in mystara.
The Astral plane in mystara touches the outer, ethereal and material planes. Astral perception distorts dimensions and weakens magic.
In OD&D the outer and astral planes were described for the use of immortal-level adventurers. Most mortal planewalkers in the mystara cosmology adventure in the inner planes.
Epic Levels :
Mortals with 25 or more character levels may start on their path to immortality. Mortals with an ECL of 25 or more and no character levels may not normally become immortals, or have special paths to immortality (such as dragons).
Immortals :
All immortals were once mortals, powerful rulers, heroes and adventurers that ascended to immortality with the aid of an immortal patron. Some immortals do not remember their mortal life, and some claim to have been born immortal.
Immortals are beings of pure power, that change the reality of the multiverse at will (known as "immortal magic"). As beings of pure power, each immortal is linked intimately to a sphere of power, one of the building blocks of reality.
The immortals want to promote their sphere, actually changing reality to make it more suitable to them. They do this by advancing different plots. As they may not act on the material plane without drawing the ire of the mightiest of immortals, they tend to use mortals as pawns, servants, and allies.
Immortal traits : Immortals are always of the immortal type. Each has a sphere subtype.
- HD : by class. Immortals have maximum HP per hit dice.
- Immune to enery drain and death attacks.
- Immune to natural or magical ageing.
- Immune to all normal diseases and poisons.
- Immunity to all mortal spells, spell-like abilities and supernatural abilites.
- Damage Reduction x/(by subtype), where x equals 15 + the immortal's HD.
- SR against immortal magic.
- Immortal Aura.
- Immortal Power (by subtype).
- Alternate Forms : Manifestation, Mortal, Spiritual, Gaseous.
- Fly, Teleport without error, plane shift and dimension shift at will.
- Permanent Tongues ability.
Exalted Beings :
These are souls had true faith in an immortal. After death, they are drawn to his home plane and are given some fragment of immortal might, becomming exalted.
In D&D terms, Exalted beings are not immortal, although they have some limited link to their patron's sphere.
An immortal may ascend a being to exalted status only if the being is truly devout and very powerful - most exalted beings were mortal heroes that failed to become immortals themselves.
OD&D exalted beings include demons. Powerfull D&D outsiders such as titans, balors, solars, and others may be considered exalted beings.
Exalted traits : All exalted beings are of the Exalted type. each has a sphere subtype.
- Immune to enery drain and death attacks.
- Immune to natural or magical ageing.
- Immune to all normal diseases and poisons.
- Immunity to all mortal magic that allows spell resistance.
- Damage Reduction of x/(by subtype), where x equals 10 + the exalted being's HD.
- SR against immortal magic.
- Immortal Aura.
- Limited immortal power (by subtype).
Immortal Servitors :
These are the lesser agents of immortals, most residing on the immortal's home plane.
They may be very powerful, but are still of mortal status. They were either crafted from mortal souls or created from planar substance.
Some immortal servitors are now free willed, either released by their creator or somehow separated from him - These tend to be older and much more powerful, some even more powerful than most immortals themselves.
OD&D immortal servitors include baak, od&d archon, and more. most D&D 3.5E outsiders are immortal servitors.
Immortal Servitor traits : Most immortal servitors are outsiders. Most have their creator's sphere's element and alignment subtypes. Some Enthropic servitors are undead.
Outer Beings :
These beings existed in the multiverse before the arrival of the first immortals. They are extremly powerful, and sometimes very dangerous. Some are capable of dispatching entire immortal war parties.
OD&D outer beings include the repeater, and others. Absurdly powerful d&d3.5E outsiders may be considered outer beings. The Tarrasque may be an outer being.
Outer Beings traits : Most are outsiders, although some are abberations that exist in the void of the material plane. Many have powerfull immunities, such as immunity to mortal and immortal magic, and so on.
Nightmare Beings :
These are the residents of the nightmare dimension. They evolved with their dimensional viewpoint based on the fifth dimension. Thus, they are totally non existant to normal beings. Some, however, are dimensionally transported into the first dimension, and exist with other normal beings, by using powerful magic.
Life based on the fifth dimension is much rarer than normal life. Most nightmare life forms are abberations based on the material plane, although there are other, rarer, nightmare beings.
Nightmare subtype :
- Poisonous to normal beings, and normal beings are poisonous to them. If the being isn't normally poisonous, then it's blood or saliva carry the poison. The save DC is constitution based, and is calculated using racial HD only. If a paladin with 13 constitution bites a malfera (a risky action), it must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 11) or suffer the poison's effect. primary and secondary 1d6 constitution, immediate, injury.
- All have the Hideous Visage (Ex) special quality. See the Accustomed (general) feat below.
Hideous Visage (Ex) : The creature's presence is horrifing to others on a very basic, instinctive level. All affected creatures who see the being must succeed on a will save or become shaken. Save DC 10+(1/2xHD)+cha modifier. Nightmare creatures affect normal creatures with this ability, and are affected in turn by normal creatures as if they had this ability. Abberations and Undead are immune to the negative effects of hideous visage.
Accustomed (General)
prerequisites : must have met and conversed (without violence) with a normal being (for a nightmare being) or a nightmare being (for a normal being).
The creature does not suffer the negative effects of the hideous visage special quality possessed by nightmare beings.
Normal : see hideous visage, above
Special : Undead and Abberations never suffer the negative effects of the hideous visage ability, even without this feat.
And btw, the creature you mention as outer being, the repeater, is just an immortal level monster (say Epic Monster, much like draedens, baaka, and many other creatures in the old immortal set), not one of the Outer Beings.
And we do not know for certain if all of the immortals have ever been mortal, nor if the Outer Beings were there before the Immortals came to power. The Old Ones were there from the beginning, but no more do we know. ;)
Finally, I am not so sure about the importance you give to the Astral Plane. In old D&D, the Ethereal touched all Elementals and Prime, the Astral touched the Ethereal (like a glove) and all the outer planes (or most of them). Basically the Astral is to the Outer Planes what the Ethereal is to the Inner Planes. How do you explain the Astral touching the Prime when the Ethereal should be in the way?
That said, it's a pretty good conversion, my compliments
There is no Plane of Shadow in the mystara cosmology. Spells or other special abilities drawing power from Shadow in D&D3.5E, draw power from the outer planes in mystara.
Or from the higher dimensions. The illusionists of Glantri get their power from the Dimension of Nightmares.
Also, it's 'entropy,' not 'enthropy.'
About the outer beings - that's just my name for monsters like the repeater, that are listed as immortal but are obviously something else. It's a collective name for creatures that are outside the influence of the immortals.
I know what you mean though, and thats why I didnt give them any new type or subtype.
I didn't mean the old ones, by the way. Actually I totally forgot about them. hmmph..
I dont use all the rules from the epic handbook, but the abominations there are just the thing I'm talking about, if you change the backround story a bit.
When a character achieves immortality, some of the power granted to him overcomes the need to gain the "level adjustment" levels without any benefits (see draconomicon... that really upset me) - thats a way to cheat that issue.
- Now, a being gains all the starting immortal powers : immunities, a basic manifestation form granted by his patron, maximum hp per HD, and so on.
- at every level he can choose to raise a mortal class, or raise an "immortal" class, much like the ghost class in ghostwalk.
- as an immortal type being without any immortal class HD, the ascended mortal is considered an initiate. He begins with a small amount of power points with which he can use immortal magic (much like psionic powers - only they include ALL spells, and some not-listed abilities, like the OD&D version).
Oh yeah, and they also gain a slam attack.
- As he gains immortal levels he gains more power points, immunities, stronger slam attacks, and access to bonus immortal feats.
- some immortal feats use mortal skills and classes as a basis. Lace Spell With Power feat allows a spellcasting immortal to cast mortal spells as immortal magic, with a relatively small power cost (for example).
Shape Manifestation Form is a "craft" immortal feat that allows immortals to create stronger manifestation forms. Not to mention Create Plane and so on.
thats about it, the basic ideas.
Oh yeah. Since I use the old immortal boxed set, immortals in my conversion do no gain power from worshippers as such. They DO gain power from worshippers advancing plots on the material plane, just like any other successful plot.
I dont know how to describe relationships between such immortal beings and mortal clerics and worshippers.
A second problem is advancement. It seems to me that immortals have to advance in power much more slowly than mortals. The only way I see of doing that is throwing some "wasted" levels as "level adjustment" useless levels somewhere in the charts. Dunno how to do that effectively though.
Please tell me what you think..
Material Planes
There are two Prime Material Planes, the "Normal" Prime (where Mystara is), and the "Nightmare" Prime (the Gold Box Nightmare dimensions/WotI's Nightmare Dimension). Both have their own Ethereal planes (unconnected to one another), and their own Elemental Planes. Though neither plane has the "Law/Chaos Influenced" traits, nevertheless the Normal Prime has a tendency towards Law, and the Nightmare Prime has a tendency towards Chaos.
Elemental Planes
The Normal Plane has Earth, Fire, Water, and Air Elemental Planes. The Nightmare Plane has Terro, Blackflame, Vischor, and "Nightmair" (pending better name) Elemental Planes.
Ethereal Planes
Each Prime and its corresponding Elemental Planes are encased in their own Ethereal Planes, which are unconnected.
Spirit Plane
The Spirit Plane is a transitive plane that connects the Normal and Nightmare Planes. This is the same "Spirit Yurt" that the Ethengar people have connections with, and it is Coterminous with the Primes. Several areas- many stonehenge-like formations across Mystara, as well as the mountain in the Land of Black Sand in Ethengar- have direct portals to the Spirit Plane. The Spirit Plane also has connections with other worlds that may not necessarily lie within the Mystaran cosmology (such as, perhaps, Laterre, the land of the d'Ambrevilles).
Astral Plane
This is the standard Astral Plane of D&D cosmology, though I've altered certain of its aspects to more closely conform to the Astral as depicted in the Gold Box Immortals set (such as mortals appearing as two-dimensional beings).
Outer Planes
Number unknown, believed to be infinite. Homes of the Immortals and other godlike beings. I don't use the standard "Great Wheel" cosmology for the Outer Planes, though I may co-opt some of the descriptions of the planes (and names) for use as homes of the Immortals.
I don't use the Negative/Positive Elemental Planes- negative energy is a natural occurrence in the universe (from which the Sphere of Entropy gets its name and members of that sphere get their power), and positive energy is a direct byproduct of the four non-Entropic elements.
I don't use the Shadow Plane. I consider many/most Shadow planar references (and powers) to derive from the Nightmare Plane (based on a theoretical physics concept I read about, wherein shadows are the result of light reflecting back from the 5th and/or higher dimensions). The Spirit Plane also serves the function of the Shadow Plane's transitive "hop between worlds" shtick.
I haven't quite decided where to place Limbo- the home of dead souls. I kind of prefer to have it be the Spirit Plane (contrary to its description as an Outer Plane), but I'm not entirely sure yet.
Spheres of Power :
Matter - Law (Earth)
Energy - Chaos (Fire)
Time - Neutral (Water)
Thought - All alignments (Air)
Entropy - Evil (No element)
I'd probably make Thought "Good", just to cover that base. Then you've got corresponding alignments for all the Spheres, even though that wasn't in the original game system.
Damage Reduction and attack qualities :
Matter : Immortals of Matter have damage reduction epic and chaos. Their attacks are considered epic and lawful.
Energy : Immortals of Energy have damage reduction epic and law. Their attacks are considered epic and chaos.
These sound pretty good, actually. I was first going to suggest Epic and Magic for Matter, but Chaos fits, too.
Time : Immortals of Time have damage reduction epic and law and chaos. Their attacks are considered epic.
I'd say Epic and Law *or* Chaos. Otherwise you're left with a) Time Immortals being tougher to fight than either Matter or Energy Immortals, and b) the weird case of having a Lawful/Chaotic weapon. Not unheard of (or disallowed, AFAIK) to be sure, but odd.
Thought : Immortals of Thought have damage reduction epic. Their attacks are considered epic and law and chaos.
If you go with the "Good" alignment I suggested, then I'd make this Epic and Evil.
Epic Levels :
Mortals with 25 or more character levels may start on their path to immortality. Mortals with an ECL of 25 or more and no character levels may not normally become immortals, or have special paths to immortality (such as dragons).
I tend to go with 20th here myself, but that's just a matter of preference. Given the breakdown for levelling I use (wherein 30th OD&D= 23rd 3E), I should technically make it 23, but 25th is not a bad idea either. I actually think it is probably better, come to think of it.
Finally, I am not so sure about the importance you give to the Astral Plane. In old D&D, the Ethereal touched all Elementals and Prime, the Astral touched the Ethereal (like a glove) and all the outer planes (or most of them). Basically the Astral is to the Outer Planes what the Ethereal is to the Inner Planes. How do you explain the Astral touching the Prime when the Ethereal should be in the way?
I think he's just going by the new 3E "standard" wherein the Astral touches the Prime as well as the Ethereal. I'm still not entirely sure why it was changed from old versions of the game myself (OD&D, AD&D- they all had the original Astral/Ethereal/Prime separation), but for my part, I tend to go with the "new" Astral as well. It doesn't create any major difficulties that I can see with the old cosmology.
Does the Ethereal now surrounds all Prime or not? How can the Astral touch the Prime?
Btw, personally I'd be more inclined to make the Spirit Plane another dimension entirely (not just an outer plane), this way it can be coterminous with multiple dimensions at the same time (Mystara, Laterre, Nightmare, ecc..). It also solves the issue on WHO (which immortal) rules over the Spirit Plane... simply nobody, or better, the Spirit Lords, who are deities for THAT dimension but do not belong to the current Mystara immortal hierarchy.
I understand it has changed, but I would like to understand HOW.
Does the Ethereal now surrounds all Prime or not? How can the Astral touch the Prime?
It's more a case of parallel evolution. AD&D had already established a multiverse where both the Ethereal (leading to the Inner Planes) and the Astral (leading to the Outer Planes) touched the Prime Material Plane - both overlapping the plane in different "directions" - long before the Immortal Set established its cosmos where the Ethereal acted as a boundary between the Astral and Prime.
The 3rd edition of the AD&D game offered a default cosmology where the Ethereal borders the Material Plane and nothing else; the Astral is the path leading to both Inner and Outer Planes.
Been tinkering with the Planar rules from 3rd Edition, and came to a bit of an impasse, so I thought I'd run this by you all.
In regards to the Planar Traits, I am sort of torn as to how to proceed. My initial thought is to simply have 5 Elemental/Energy Planar traits- Earth, Fire, Water, Air, and Entropy (Negative). I just dropped the Positive, since I don't see Mystara as having/needing a Positive Elemental Plane (I don't have a Negative Elemental Plane, either, FWIW). Thus, the four Elemental Planes represent the life-giving nature of the universe, each with its corresponding ideological Sphere of Power. The anti-life nature of the universe is represented by ever-present Entropy, and its corresponding Sphere.
On the other hand, I could almost see making a case for four Elemental Traits and 5 Sphere Traits- Time, Thought, Matter, Energy, and Entropy. Thus, a plane could possess (say) both Air and Energy Dominant Traits (despite Air having a close association with Thought). It makes for some intriguing planar possibilities, but then again, may be too complicated and sort of antithetical to the element/sphere correspondences.
What do you all think?
What do you all think?
The idea of having both energy and sphere traits is very cool, and IMO not overly complicated. You could list also which element don't interacts with which sphere - in order to have not impossible combinations (in any).
Regarding negative/positive trait, you could make the entropy-dominated planes 'major negative dominant', while the other 4 spheres' dominated planes 'minor positive dominant' - the sum of the minor positive trait of the 4 spheres of life's-dominated planes counteracts the major negative trait of the entropy-dominated planes. ;)
Resurrecting this thread since it deals with an issue that I was going to post, and why start a whole new thread just for that?
Been tinkering with the Planar rules from 3rd Edition, and came to a bit of an impasse, so I thought I'd run this by you all.
In regards to the Planar Traits, I am sort of torn as to how to proceed. My initial thought is to simply have 5 Elemental/Energy Planar traits- Earth, Fire, Water, Air, and Entropy (Negative). I just dropped the Positive, since I don't see Mystara as having/needing a Positive Elemental Plane (I don't have a Negative Elemental Plane, either, FWIW). Thus, the four Elemental Planes represent the life-giving nature of the universe, each with its corresponding ideological Sphere of Power. The anti-life nature of the universe is represented by ever-present Entropy, and its corresponding Sphere.
On the other hand, I could almost see making a case for four Elemental Traits and 5 Sphere Traits- Time, Thought, Matter, Energy, and Entropy. Thus, a plane could possess (say) both Air and Energy Dominant Traits (despite Air having a close association with Thought). It makes for some intriguing planar possibilities, but then again, may be too complicated and sort of antithetical to the element/sphere correspondences.
What do you all think?
An alternative could be to say that the Entropy Train be identical to the Negative Plane Trait, and the Sphere Traits be identical to the relevant Elemental Train averaged with the Positive Plane Trait....
Or you could simply have Sphere Traits and leave it at that. Spheres each having their Elemental parallell except for Entropy.
I have to read up on 3E planes though, I'm not really sure how much these things influence things...
By the way, I'm glad you resurrected this thread Cthul! I really like many of the ideas presented by Valentinus earlier on in the thread and for some reason I never responded to it back when it was originally posted.
Håvard