Sorcerer Kings & Champions
Rajaat, The First Sorcerer, the War Bringer
Male pyreen; CE
Pyreen 13/Psion (egoist) 20/Arch Psion 5/Wizard 30/Arch Defiler 20/Arch Mage 10/Shadow Wizard 12/Cleric (Rain) 10/Elementalist 5/Elemental Master 5
Templates – First Sorcerer, Elemental Avatar
Character Level: 130
Borys, the Dragon of Tyr (deceased)
Male dragon (stage 10); LE
Psychic Warrior 15/Psion (egoist) 20/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon 15
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (dwarves), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 70
Dregoth, the Undead Dragon-King, Dread Lord of New Giustenal
Undead male dragon (stage 9); CE
Psion (shaper) 10/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Cerebmancer 10/Arch Mage 5/Arch Psion 5/Dragon 9
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (giants), Sorcerer-Monarch, Kaisharga
Character Level: 59
Note - Obviously, these stats have nothing to do with those that are undoubtedly in Dregoth Ascending III.
Abalach-Re, the Great Vizier of Raam (deceased)
Female dragon (stage 3); CE
Bard 6/Psion (telepath) 18/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon 1
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (orcs), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 45
Andropinis, the Dictator of Balic
Male dragon (stage 1); LE
Aristocrat 7/Psion (nomad) 20/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon 1
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (elves), Sorcerer-Monarch, Blacktouched
Character Level: 48
Daskinor, the Mad King of Eldaarich
Male dragon (stage 1); CE
Psychic Warrior 6/Wilder 19/Wizard (defiler) 8/Arch Defiler 9/Dragon 2
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (goblins), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 44
Hamanu, King of the World, and Lion of Urik
Male dragon (stage 2); LE
Fighter 4/Marshal 14/Psion (egoist) 15/Wizard (defiler) 17/ Dragon 3
Templates – Final Champion of Rajaat, Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 53
Kalak, the Tyrant of Tyr (deceased)
Male dragon (stage 1); NE
Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Psion (telepath) 20/Dragon 1
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (ogres), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 41
Irikos, the Left Hand of Rajaat (deceased)
Male human; LE
Fighter 4/Psychic Warrior 13/Psion (egoist) 12/Wizard (defiler) 5/Arch Defiler 10
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (ogres)
Character Level: 44
Kalid-Ma, the Golden Mistress of Kalidnay (deceased)
Female dragon (stage 2); NE
Psion (shaper) 12/Wizard (defiler) 17/Cerebmancer 10/Arch Mage 5/Dragon 3
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (tari), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 47
Note - The earliest reference to Kalid-Ma is in the original boxed set, an refers to the character as a male. I have Kalid-Ma set up here as a female simply as a matter of personal preference (die kank, die ;) ).
Lalai-Puy, the Oba, Forest-Goddess of Gulg
Female dragon (stage 2); LE
Psion (telepath) 16/Wizard (defiler) 20/Thrallherd 10/Dragon 3
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (aarakocra), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 49
Myron of Yorum, Troll Scorcher (deceased)
Male human; NE
Psion (nomad) 17/Wizard (defiler) 12/Arch Defiler 10
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (trolls)
Character Level: 39
Note - These stats are derived from Rise and Fall of a Dragon King.
Nibenay, the Shadow King of Nibenay
Male dragon (stage 4); LE
Psion (seer) 17/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Cerebmancer 10/Dragon 5
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (gnomes), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 52
Oronis, the Avangion of Kurn
Male avangion (stage 2?); LG
Psychic Warrior 12/Psion (egoist) 11/Wizard (preserver) 10/Cerebmancer 10/Avangion 4
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (lizardfolk), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 47
Sacha of Arala, Curse of Kobolds, First Champion of Rajaat (deceased)
Male human; LE
Aristocrat 6/Psion (telepath) 14/Wizard (defiler) 8/Arch Defiler 10
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (kobolds)
Character Level: 38
Pennarin, the Doppelganger Eradicator (deceased)
Male human; NE
Rogue 5/Assassin 7/Psion (egoist) 12/Wizard (defiler) 7/Arch Defiler 10/Master Transmogrifist 10
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (doppelgangers)
Character Level: 51
Sielba, Lifegiver and Empress of Yaramuke (deceased)
Female dragon (stage 1); LE
Aristocrat 4/Psion (shaper) 11/Wizard (defiler) 8/Arch Defiler 5/Metamind 5/Cerebmancer 10/Dragon 1
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (pterrans), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 43
Note - These stats are mainly derived from what little information I could glean from Black Flames.
Tectucktitlay, the Father of Draj and Master of the Two Moons (deceased)
Male dragon (stage 2); NE
Fighter 8/Psion (kineticist) 17/Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 10/Dragon 2*
Templates – Champion of Rajaat (wemics), Sorcerer-Monarch
Character Level: 47* (45)
Note – In my campaign, Tectucktitlay has returned, inhabiting the body of Azetuk, the God King of Draj, via an epic spell simlar to magic jar some time between FY 20 and FY 30. Due to this circumstance, the physical and mental changes formerly brought about by his Dragon levels are not available until he transforms this body into a Dragon. This effectively makes his Dragon levels unavailable for the time being. Again, this is simply personal perference.
Wyan of Bodach, Pixie Blight (deceased)
Male human; LE
Psion (nomad) 16/Wizard (defiler) 12/Arch Defiler 10
Templates - Champion of Rajaat (pixies)
Character Level: 38
Other Characters of Note
Agis of Asticles (deceased)
Male human; LG
Psychic Warrior 4/Psion (telepath) 15
Caelum (deceased)
Male dwarf; LG
Cleric (Sun) 14
Farcluun
Male dragon (stage 3); LE
Wizard (defiler) 12/Arch Defiler 5/Psion (egoist) 19/Dragon 2
Character Level: 38
Fevil, Mage of the Black Sand Raiders
Male human; LE
Wizard (defiler) 10/Arch Defiler 2
Malignor, Servant of the Storm
Male human; LE
Wizard (defiler) 9/Arch Defiler 5/Cerulean 3
Note - In my campaign, Malignor survived the Defiler's Gambit adventure in Beyond the Prism Pentad and has returned to Tithian's serivce as a cerulean.
Neeva
Female human; NG
Gladiator 7/Fighter 4
Nok, Guardian of the Forest Ridge
Male halfling; N
Druid 7/ Psion (egoist) 12/Wizard (preserver) 14
Character Level: 33
Note - Nok's status in my campaign is uncertain
Rikus
Male mul; NG
Gladiator 9/Arena Champion 4/Marshal 2
Rkard
Male mul; NG
Cleric (Sun) 5
Sadira
Female half elf; N
Wizard (tainted) 10/Sun Wizard 8 or Wizard (tainted) 14 with the Sun Touched template
Tithian
Male human; NE
Ex-templar 13/Psion (telepath) 7/Wizard (defiler) 4
Character Level: 24
Zeburon, Chief of the Black Sand Raiders
Male human; CE
Gladiator 4/Montare 4/Black Sand Reaver 3
It looks really good BTW. Thanks.
i thought the general consensus was that the sun wizard was a template, not a prestige class? i reeally liked the template, at least . . .
I'd post the template here, but don't want to be rude. I could link to the old thread with my template, but eh... its Friday. I'm to lazy to search for it :P
One note- I do not think you can progress a 5 lvl PrC any higher- not even in Epic levels. So you may have to adjust Rajaat's levels in Arch Mage.
It looks really good BTW. Thanks.
IMO, Rajaat would be the ultimate case of special circumstance. Normally I'd agree, but I think it's safe to assume that Rajaat can do some pretty spectacular things with the magic he created, hence the exception. What levels 6-10 in arch mage (and the First Sorcerer and Elemental Avatar templates, for that matter) would enable him to do is only a vague idea at the moment.
Another note on Sadria- the Sun Wizard PrC says that you have to be able to cast 7th level spells to join the PrC- so you would have to up her wizard levels to qualify for the PrC.
Again, an exception due to the manner she gained the class (picking up 8 levels in a few minutes kinda isn't exactly rules-friendly either ;) ).
i thought the general consensus was that the sun wizard was a template, not a prestige class? i reeally liked the template, at least . . .
The reason I went with a prestige class is two fold - 1) IIRC she could cast more powerful (ie higher level) spells while juiced up than she could before; and 2) I was being lazy (again). Even though I linked it to the sun wizard prestige at the Library of Urik website, I don't fully agree with that version and there are a number of changes I'd if I were using it. However, I doubt I'll ever need exact stats for Sadira in my campaign, so a rough idea will probably do the job. Of course, all of this is just my opinion, feel free to do as you please
I'd post the template here, but don't want to rude. I could link to the old thread that it was in, but eh... its Friday. I'm to lazy to search for it :P
Nix that, added a link to the original post. But feel free to post whatever you want Sysane
(like rough guesses for Sacha, Wyan, Irikos, and Pennarin maybe?)Sun Wizard (Sun Touched)
A sun wizards appearance remains the same except that their skin takes on a black coloration and their eyes burn with a crimson glow when in direct sunlight. When the character breaths, wisps of steam can be seen when they exhale. When not in sunlight their appearance returns to the way they looked before becoming sun touched.
Sun wizards speak the languages they knew before their change.
Size and Type: Same as base creature.
Hit Dice: Same as base creature.
Speed: Same as base creature.
Armor Class: The base creature’s natural armor bonus improves by +4.
Attack: A sun wizard has a touch attack that it can use once per round. If the base creature can use weapons, the sun wizard retains this ability. A creature with natural weapons retains those natural weapons. A sun wizard fighting without weapons uses either its touch attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A sun wizard armed with a weapon uses its touch or a weapon, as she desires.
Damage: A sun wizard without natural weapons has a touch attack that uses heat to deal 1d6+ sun wizards Int modifier points of damage; a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 sun wizard’s HD + sun wizard’s Int modifier) halves the damage. A sun wizard with natural weapons can use its touch attack or its natural weaponry, as it prefers. If it chooses the latter, it deals 1d6 + Int modifier points of extra damage on one natural weapon attack.
Special Attacks: Same as base creature
Special Qualities: A sun wizard retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
Damage Reduction (Su): The sun wizard’s sun infused body is tough, giving her damage reduction 15/-.
Immovability (Su): The sun wizard is immovable while on the ground. Any creature attempting to physically move the character must succeed on an opposed Strength check, which the sun wizard gains a +20 bonus on the check.
Immunities (Ex): A sun wizard is immune to cold and fire attacks.
Spell Resistance (Ex): The sun wizard gains spell resistance equal to 15 + sun wizard’s HD .
Sun Magic (Su): The sun wizard can draw energy from the sun in order to fuel their spells. The character can choose whether to utilize plant energy or sun energy when casting spells. Sun energy has no impact on the environment. Spells powered with sun energy increase the sun wizard’s caster level by 10 for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks.
Abilities: Increase from base creature as follows: Str +6, Con +6, Int +4.
Skills: Same as base creature.
Feats: Sun wizards gain Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration as bonus feats.
Environment: Any, usually same as base creature.
Organization: Same as base creature.
Challenge Rating: Same as base creature + 6.
Treasure: As base creature
Alignment: As base creature.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +8.
Sun Touched
The sun wizard needs to be in sunlight in order to gain the benefits of this template. When removed from sunlight the sun wizard looses all the above powers and abilities after a number of rounds equal to the characters caster level. These abilities return the instant the sun wizard is exposed to sunlight. The sun wizard immediately looses all sun touched powers the round after sun set and can not access them again till the following day's sun rise.
Other Characters of Note
Agis of Asticles (deceased)
Male human; LG
Aristocrat 4/Psion (telepath) 15
Many give him a few levels of psychic warrior because of what he could do, and also because he was a very physical guy for a psion.
Malignor, Servant of the Storm
Male human; LE
Wizard (defiler) 9/Arch Defiler 5/Cerulean 3
Note - In my campaign, Malignor survived the Defiler's Gambit adventure in Beyond the Prism Pentad and has returned to Tithian's serivce as a cerulean.
I like that a lot!
Rikus
Male mul; NG
Gladiator 9/Fighter 4/Marshal 2
He's an Arena Champion btw.
Tithian
Male human; NE
Ex-templar 13/Psion (telepath) 14/Wizard (tainted) 4
Character Level: 31
The guy was a definite defiler in the end.
Zeburon, Chief of the Black Sand Raiders
Male human; CE
Gladiator 6/Fighter 2/Black Sand Reaver 3
I'd make the guy a Montare since Slave Tribes says he was a kank montare.
Nix that, added a link to the original post. But feel free to post whatever you want Sysane
Errrr... I'll stay away from the Irikos conversion. That subject always makes for a messy thread.
A couple of people, including me, think Pennarin was the Doppelganger Eradicator. You can always write that.
Tithian
Male human; NE
Ex-templar 13/Psion (telepath) 14/Wizard (tainted) 4
Character Level: 31
A 14th level Psion? Really??? The man could bearly hold mental contact with an inix. I'd say he was no more than a 5th level psion at the very best.
Errrr... I'll stay away from the Irikos conversion. That subject always makes for a messy thread.
Did someone bring up Mr. I? Mwuahahahahaha!
A 14th level Psion? Really??? The man could bearly hold mental contact with an inix. I'd say he was no more than a 5th level psion at the very best.
Going to have to agree here. The thing that made Tithian a bad ass is the fact that he had probably the most powerful artifact in Athas's existence with him, not the fact that he studied alot, in fact he ponders in Prism Pentad how he should have paid attention more in psionic class when he was younger instead of working his way to becoming the typical, powerhungry, greedy templar.
Many give him a few levels of psychic warrior because of what he could do, and also because he was a very physical guy for a psion.
Easy enough to switch his Aristocrat levels over to Psychic Warrior. I don't recall a lot of his actual exploits (its been over a decade since I read the Pentad, after all), but yeah, it does seem right.
I like that a lot!
Thanks
I was skimming over BtPP again and ran into him. Really uninteresting guy, until I came up with the idea of making him a cerulean. 
He's an Arena Champion btw.
The guy was a definite defiler in the end.
I'd make the guy a Montare since Slave Tribes says he was a kank montare.
All noted and changed. Thanks for the input
Yep, I suggesting keeping away from Irikos - "There lies madness and death!" - although Pennarin is kinda safer.
A couple of people, including me, think Pennarin was the Doppelganger Eradicator. You can always write that.
Actually, I'd prefer if you guys handled Pennarin the Doppelganger Eradicator, Myron, Irkos, Wyan, and Sacha, since I know next to nothing about them (stopped reading the novels halfway through the first Tribe of One book, have yet to start up again). So anyone who wants to tackle them (and the Neksos, Sorak, Korgunard, etc.) please do :D
A 14th level Psion? Really??? The man could bearly hold mental contact with an inix. I'd say he was no more than a 5th level psion at the very best.
Going to have to agree here. The thing that made Tithian a bad ass is the fact that he had probably the most powerful artifact in Athas's existence with him, not the fact that he studied alot, in fact he ponders in Prism Pentad how he should have paid attention more in psionic class when he was younger instead of working his way to becoming the typical, powerhungry, greedy templar.
You guys are right. What can I say, its been a while ;)
I'd toss a couple divine levels on Rajaat, while you're at it. The boy's plans go out decades, centuries, possibly millennia. It says a lot to think that maybe everything that's happened since his imprisonment was actually part of some master plan.
I personally don't like the idea of anything in the Athasian cosmology having any divine ranks whatsoever (even divine rank 0). Divine ranks imply godhood, and, in my opinion, the gods should keep their collective nose out of Athas. However, that's not to say that Rajaat couldn't easily have deity-like abilities without actually being divine. That's why I included the Elemental Avatar template on him.
No offense intended
Actually, I'd prefer if you guys handled Pennarin the Doppelganger Eradicator, Myron, Irkos, Wyan, and Sacha, since I know next to nothing about them (stopped reading the novels halfway through the first Tribe of One book, have yet to start up again). So anyone who wants to tackle them (and the Neksos, Sorak, Korgunard, etc.) please do :D
The Neksos for me is nothing more than another name for Borys.
The Neksos for me is nothing more than another name for Borys.
Not for me, and that's why we should all leave Irikos and the Neksos alone, far too controversial. If one of us wants to come up with his own version of the NPC and post it here, then please do, I'm just suggesting we should not take over the thread by endlessely commenting on them now or afterwards!
I'll never understand why you guys feel the need to come up with stats for this stuff. 
SKs are plot devices, they do whatever the hell I say they do. No stats required.Simple. ;)
Arch Defiler? er...I cant find the description of this class,who may tell me where I can see it ,please?
It's on athas.org in the prestige classes release, right here.
I'll agree with you when it comes to Rajaat, but the SMs can be beaten thanks to epic levels and such, just a matter of time.
I don't hate Khaine's conversion of Rajaat though, it just seems to be missing something, not sure what yet.
I came up with the augmentation for one of the dominate powers, the level required to reach that augmentation, and increased it until Rajaat could dominate over 10 Champions at once with a DC so high there was little chance they could resist the command.
It was an insane amount, like 60 or 80 levels of psion.
Just to have a rough idea of what the big boys would be like stat-wise. It started out as more of an exercise in time-wasting on my part
That and to have something laying around that my players can find and wet themselves over (props to Dawnstealer 
)I don't hate Khaine's conversion of Rajaat though, it just seems to be missing something, not sure what yet.
Totally agreed Nyt. Fortunately, I doubt I'll ever have to deal with it on anything aside from an academic level ;)
It's on athas.org in the prestige classes release, right here.
Thank you :D
Thank you :D
No prob
Here is a thought I had. When listing out the AB Dragons and Avangion's I think the the PrC and the respecive metamorphosis stages should be listed out seperatly- at least now that we have a version of the Dragon AB and metamorphosis to work with.
You would also need to list out whether they took a +1 arcane caster class or a +1 manifester class with each level of the PrC.
What a messy stat block that will be
Here is a thought I had. When listing out the AB Dragons and Avangion's I think the the PrC and the respecive metamorphosis stages should be listed out seperatly- at least now that we have a version of the Dragon AB and metamorphosis to work with.
I'll be going back and doing that when I get around to it. For now, I'm thinking Kalid-Ma was at 2nd stage, and Farcluun was/is at 3rd. (Borys at 10th, obviously, and Dregoth at 9th).
Where does the Arch Psion PrC come from. I could not locate it in the SRD?
It's here.
Here is a thought I had. When listing out the AB Dragons and Avangion's I think the the PrC and the respecive metamorphosis stages should be listed out seperatly- at least now that we have a version of the Dragon AB and metamorphosis to work with.
Dragon stages are added, plus I tacked 5 more levels of the Dragon prc onto good old Borys, to simulate the stats from the first boxed set more closely.
Thanks Khaine- now I think I will use some of the stuff you made/posted and totally stat out Borys. It should be pretty sick when all said and done :D
OK, I'm officially scared now
Kalid-Ma is looking bad enough as it is, but the big B man... (you're gonna post him when you're done, right? Please?) OK, I'm officially scared now
It may take a while- there is A LOT of stuff to do- and I try to 'map' out their progression to see what abilities and feats are available when. The one big thing I am most scared of doing is the skill selection- it is going to be ugle.
Ya though, I will post him when it is finished- but I did change a few levels here and there, but he is still really close to what you originally posted.
It may take a while- there is A LOT of stuff to do- and I try to 'map' out their progression to see what abilities and feats are available when. The one big thing I am most scared of doing is the skill selection- it is going to be ugle.
Kalid-Ma has 480-some skill points, so I think your gonna have fuuun with B's skills. At least you won't have to worry about running out of points
Ya though, I will post him when it is finished- but I did change a few levels here and there, but he is still really close to what you originally posted.
No prob, looking forward to it.
Added Wyan, Sacha, Pennarin, and 
Irikos....and
ah hell-
(waiting for approaching lynch mob)
ah hell-
(waiting for approaching lynch mob)
You knew I had to eventually
Bring 'em on!
I've wanted to use this smily for a while anyway. :D
You should add some warrior-based classes to Dregoth's build, in place of some of his other levels, since that guy was one of the three physically powerful Champions that used weapons to dispatch Rajaat: Dregoth, Hamanu, and Borys. (reference: RaFoaDK)
On a totally different note, I personally have it that metamorphosing ABs cannot use any polymorphing spells to change their form, be they polymorph self or alter self or even psionics. For example, the dragon metamorphosis changes the body in so intense a way that it doesn't allow the character to change shape. As such, I'd never give Master Transmorgrifist levels to Pennarin. Instead, I'd make him an Illusionist or give him an illusion-related PrC.
When you give a title, such as "Father of Draj", don't add "the" before, there's no need. Thus its "Borys, Butcher of Dwarves".
You should add some warrior-based classes to Dregoth's build, in place of some of his other levels, since that guy was one of the three physically powerful Champions that used weapons to dispatch Rajaat: Dregoth, Hamanu, and Borys. (reference: RaFoaDK)
All of that's basically leftover from xlore's original post on the subject.
As for Dregoth, I haven't revised him based on RaFoaDK yet, but you're right on that.On a totally different note, I personally have it that metamorphosing ABs cannot use any polymorphing spells to change their form, be they polymorph self or alter self or even psionics. For example, the dragon metamorphosis changes the body in so intense a way that it doesn't allow the character to change shape. As such, I'd never give Master Transmorgrifist levels to Pennarin. Instead, I'd make him an Illusionist or give him an illusion-related PrC.
There we disagree, twofold. One, I would allow AB to polymorph normally, since nothing in the rules or fluff that I'm aware of disallows or even puts it into question.
Two is more interesting. While RaFoaDK has all of the Champions as dragons before Rajaat's imprisonment, this is from Hamanu's perspective. While he does have Myron's memories to draw from, it's entirely possible that he assumes all the Champions are dragons previous to the rebellion since he himself is one. As you know, other sources have the Champions becoming dragons after the rebellion. Going from this stance, you'll note that I have Myron, Irikos, Sacha, Wyan, and Pennarin's race noted as human, not dragon like the others.
Two is more interesting. While RaFoaDK has all of the Champions as dragons before Rajaat's imprisonment, this is from Hamanu's perspective. While he does have Myron's memories to draw from, it's entirely possible that he assumes all the Champions are dragons previous to the rebellion since he himself is one. As you know, other sources have the Champions becoming dragons after the rebellion. Going from this stance, you'll note that I have Myron, Irikos, Sacha, Wyan, and Pennarin's race noted as human, not dragon like the others.
Its funny how everyone tries to reconcile most aspects of RaFoaDK with the rest of the setting: it is mostly ireconcilable. Hamanu knows the other Champions are dragons, he knows he doesn't need to cast the dragon metamorphosis spell to advance in the Dragon PrC, he knows all the stuff he says throughout the novel.
Lynn Abbey simply had a different take than what the authors of the Timeline and other book products had for the setting. For example, the Champions were not gifted with anything right after they defeated Rajaat, while the Timeline says Borys rewards the Champions by beginning their transformations into sorcerer-kings. Abbey also says the Champions had templars for thousands of years before Rajaat's defeat, while the Timeline says it all began there.
That novel is simply not compatible as read with the rest of the setting. Saying Hamanu was fooled by the other Champions, or he got all his info wrong, or immortality has dulled his mind, or any of a dozen other explanations I've seen throwned around to reconcile what he says with the rest of the setting, simply cheapens Hamanu as a character, as well as the entire novel.
There we disagree, twofold. One, I would allow AB to polymorph normally, since nothing in the rules or fluff that I'm aware of disallows or even puts it into question.
If you want to know where I picked that up, hunt down the part in RaFoaDK when Hamanu thinks about having sex and recalls his earlier attempts hundreds of years before.
That passage, plus the one where Hamanu has sex with Sielba, clearly implies that if Hamanu had the chance to cast a spell and become human he would do it and enjoy the pleasures of a human life, including hunger and sex.
Since he doesn't do that, and never did in the past, I take it as a strong indicator that Hamanu cannot change his form at all.
There's also a scene when Hamanu hurts himself, where he mentions to himself that he can't heal, but his flesh won't putrify either: all wounds are endured while they are slowly absorbed by the ongoing metamorphosis, to slowly be replaced by new flesh, like a white spot on a growing nail.
In that scene, and at least one, another Hamanu says Rajaat's handiwork (meaning the dragon part of Hamanu) cannot be undone in any way that he knows, and he tried all he could think of over the millenia. If it were as easy as casting polymoprh self Hamanu would have done so long ago.
There may also be another reference somewhere, a reference that explains why all the Champions shroud themselves in illusions 24/7 instead of polymorphing into human form.
That novel is simply not compatible as read with the rest of the setting.
Very true, but Miss Abby has the luxery of not dealing with the problems she inadvertantly created. We, however, are the ones still dealing with the setting and thus the mess. So we can either ignore RaFoaDK totally or try to smooth out the differances. I'm currently leaning toward the later.
Saying Hamanu was fooled by the other Champions, or he got all his info wrong, or immortality has dulled his mind, or any of a dozen other explanations I've seen throwned around to reconcile what he says with the rest of the setting, simply cheapens Hamanu as a character, as well as the entire novel.
Again, I disagree. Despite his power, Hamanu is not infallible. One of the things I love the most about RaFoaDK is the simple fact that Miss Abby took (in my opinion) one of the most boring of the sorcerer-kings and made him interesting. Moreover, made me care about his fate. I see the triumph of RaFoaDK as the simple fact that it made Hamanu more realistic and more human (ironically
). In my opinion, saying that Hamanu didn't have an accurate view of the situation regarding him and the other Champions strengthens the character and novel, not cheapens it.Just my opinion, though. No offense intended
If you want to know where I picked that up, hunt down the part in RaFoaDK when Hamanu thinks about having sex and recalls his earlier attempts hundreds of years before.
That passage, plus the one where Hamanu has sex with Sielba, clearly implies that if Hamanu had the chance to cast a spell and become human he would do it and enjoy the pleasures of a human life, including hunger and sex.
Since he doesn't do that, and never did in the past, I take it as a strong indicator that Hamanu cannot change his form at all.
There's also a scene when Hamanu hurts himself, where he mentions to himself that he can't heal, but his flesh won't putrify either: all wounds are endured while they are slowly absorbed by the ongoing metamorphosis, to slowly be replaced by new flesh, like a white spot on a growing nail.
In that scene, and at least one, another Hamanu says Rajaat's handiwork (meaning the dragon part of Hamanu) cannot be undone in any way that he knows, and he tried all he could think of over the millenia. If it were as easy as casting polymoprh self Hamanu would have done so long ago.
There may also be another reference somewhere, a reference that explains why all the Champions shroud themselves in illusions 24/7 instead of polymorphing into human form.
Good one, I didn't think of it that way.
The question is, of course, does this apply just to Hamanu, or is it a universal problem for all ABs, as your last sentence implies. (the scene you're thinking of occurs just after Hamanu is made into a Champion, I think).(the scene you're thinking of occurs just after Hamanu is made into a Champion, I think).
Not just from RaFoaDK, Khaine, from Prism Pentad as well. As encountered in their cities, and sometimes outside of them too, the SKs are presented as fantastical-looking, a sure sign they are shrouded in illusions, especially when you know they all look draconic, while some of the descriptions for the SKs are that of fantastical humans without draconic features.
Nibenay appears as a revved-up version of his son Dhojakt, Andropinis is a 8-ft. tall human, Kalak is an old geazer, Hamanu is a lion-like man, etc., while in fact they all are dray-like humanoids of Large size.
I see the triumph of RaFoaDK as the simple fact that it made Hamanu more realistic and more human (ironically
Just my opinion, though. No offense intended
I'm not offended Khaine, and you're right in thinking all the SKs must individually have some of the details wrong.
But what some, if not many, people are implying is that wherever RaFoaDK diverges from the rest of the setting, it means that its a fault of Hamanu.
Saying that is like meaning that Hamanu battled Rajaat, then went off for a leak, a short time during which the other Champions received their reward from Borys. Hamanu came back as clueless as ever. Also, its Borys who organized the rebellion, and only Borys, and as such Hamanu's memories of helping him are but schizophrenic hallucinations. Also, Hamanu made an error when he heard the titles of the other Champions: he heard Sprite-Claw instead of Pixie-Blight. His bad. Having an infaillible Champion memory that allows you to remember the color of the inside of your mother's womb apparently doesn't help with any of the above details. The failing of his infaillible memory apparently occurs whenever a detail happens to contradict the rest of the setting.
That is what cheapens the character and the novel.
Not just from RaFoaDK, Khaine, from Prism Pentad as well. As encountered in their cities, and sometimes outside of them too, the SKs are presented as fantastical-looking, a sure sign they are shrouded in illusions, especially when you know they all look draconic, while some of the descriptions for the SKs are that of fantastical humans without draconic features.
Nibenay appears as a revved-up version of his son Dhojakt, Andropinis is a 8-ft. tall human, Kalak is an old geazer, Hamanu is a lion-like man, etc., while in fact they all are dray-like humanoids of Large size.
OK, you got me Penn :surrender :D
(although of the seven original kings only Nibenay was stage 3, most were stage 1 and could have passed for human without illusion, but that's neither here nor there).
I'm not offended Khaine, and you're right in thinking all the SKs must individually have some of the details wrong.
But what some, if not many, people are implying is that wherever RaFoaDK diverges from the rest of the setting, it means that its a fault of Hamanu...
That is what cheapens the character and the novel.
I agree totally on that. In cases like this it's obvious (or should be obvious) that author error is to blame. Case in point, Miss Abby describes the town of Urik (before Hamanu took over) as being on the trade route between Tyr and Guistenal
What I meant to say, though, is that Hamanu was/is ignorant of the exact differences between him and the other Champions. The question of whether Champion = dragon or not is something I'm wide open on. :D
It's here.
Someone should do a 3.5 update of this PrC. Its great material for members of the order.
Also, its Borys who organized the rebellion, and only Borys, and as such Hamanu's memories of helping him are but schizophrenic hallucinations. Also, Hamanu made an error when he heard the titles of the other Champions: he heard Sprite-Claw instead of Pixie-Blight. His bad. Having an infaillible Champion memory that allows you to remember the color of the inside of your mother's womb apparently doesn't help with any of the above details. The failing of his infaillible memory apparently occurs whenever a detail happens to contradict the rest of the setting.
That is what cheapens the character and the novel.
Of course Borys would want to claim that it was him and only him, and maybe that is the way it seemed on the surface, but if you've ever played a game of intrigue like Vampire the Masqurade you know that there is usually a lot more going on then you can see on the surface.
As to the titles. How many languages could the champions speak? How many languages might their titles have been in spoken in? How many different titles might they have been known by? I don't think that him recalling the title as Sprite-Claw is necessarily a mistake. It could be a different translation of the same words that were actually spoken, and have been translated into Urikite differently then they would be into Tyrian or whatever.
As an example: we have the title "Sprite Claw" used.
We can...
1) ignore it. Never happened. So.... Nothing.
or
2) use it as well as her other title. This opens up a plethora of ideas as to the meaning behind its use. Perhaps she attempted to garner more power from Rajaat by making a play on Wyan's territory (ie, making war on the sprites -aka pixies, or by simply being a thorn in his side). Perhaps she fought alongside him, instead, as an ally (or a lover). This might explain her failure to eliminate her chosen race.
As you can see, all kinds of ideas might spring from this supposed error. And that's a relatively minor one. Think of some of the ideas that might spring up from using any of the other "errors", and you can see why I'm relunctant to simply just "throw them out".
Someone should do a 3.5 update of this PrC. Its great material for members of the order.
The Mind's Eye, a series of psionic articles on the WotC website, was abolished about a year ago. But until very recently it has been resurrected, and may see a conversion of the Arch Psion.
In my opinion, the thing that cheapens the novel the most, is the fact that it is seen as not fitting with the rest of the setting. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that there were occurances that could easily be taken as inconsistencies. However, I think it can only strengthen the setting by incorporating these ideas further. By ignoring these, we remove a valuable source of information from a setting already lacking in much.
That can be said to be the second layer to that novel that readers lose when they dismiss it. Besides the cool info that happens to contradict the setting, there's a ton of other, sometimes cooler info that can fit right in but still gets dismissed with the rest.
A 14th level Psion? Really??? The man could bearly hold mental contact with an inix. I'd say he was no more than a 5th level psion at the very best.
Going to have to agree here. The thing that made Tithian a bad ass is the fact that he had probably the most powerful artifact in Athas's existence with him, not the fact that he studied alot, in fact he ponders in Prism Pentad how he should have paid attention more in psionic class when he was younger instead of working his way to becoming the typical, powerhungry, greedy templar.
You guys are right. What can I say, its been a while ;)
I think the 14 levels of psion are ok. Tithian had trouble maintaining contact with Sadira's kank in Amber Enchantress but in Obsidian Oracle Tithian charmed all the slaves on the silt skimmer that Agis picked him up on; furthermore, Tithian gave Agis and the silt skimmer driver/levitator guy trouble that resulted in the death of the driver.
Also, I think I would give Tithian at least one more caster level in wizard since he was going to cast a lightning bolt during the giant attack on the silt skimmer armada.
Where is the marshal prestige class? never heard of it?
Marshal - Miniatures Handbook
Someone should do a 3.5 update of this PrC. Its great material for members of the order.
This thread deals with updates to the old mind's eye articles http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217690
in it someone has done a conversion of the archpsion.
I have also done one which closely resembles this one, but, since it was posted first, I will default to it for now.
I have also done one which closely resembles this one, but, since it was posted first, I will default to it for now.
Hey post away (on a new thread)- it may be different enough that people like it better or feel that yours has a better fit to the DS game.
Arch Psion
HD: d4
L BAB F R W Special Powers Known
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 High Psionics +1 level of existing manifesting class
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 High Psionics +1 level of existing manifesting class
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 High Psionics +1 level of existing manifesting class
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 High Psionics +1 level of existing manifesting class
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 High Psionics +1 level of existing manifesting class
Requirements
Skills: Know(Psionics) 15 ranks, Psicraft 15 ranks
Feats: Skill Focus (Psicraft), Psionic Endowment, & any 3 metapsionic feats
Psionics: Ability to manifest 7th level powers, knowledge of 5th level or higher powers from at least 3 psionic disciplines
Class Skills
Skill points per level: 2 + Int. modifier - Autohypnosis, Concentration, Craft, Know (all skills taken individually), Psicraft, & Use Psionic Device
Class Features
Weapons & Armor - none gained
Powers Known - at every level an arch psion gains additional power points per day and access to new powers as if s/he had also gained a level in whatever manifesting clas s/he belonged to before s/he added the prestige class. S/he does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus feats, metapsionic or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). This essentially means that s/he adds the level of arch psion to the level of whatever manifesting class the character has, then determines power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly.
If a character had more than one manifesting class before s/he became an arch psion, s/he must decide to which class s/he adds the new level of arch psion for the purposes of determining power points per day, powers known, and manifester level. [adopted from XPH p. 153]
High Psionics:
Extra Power
The arch psion can learn one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power s/he can currently manifest. The arch psion can select this ability more than once. The permanent power point loss for this ability equals the base cost to manifest the selected power. [taken from Mind's eye sight, altered to allow knowledge of powers from any list and slight wording].
Psi-like Ability
an archpsion who selects this tpe of high psionics can lose power points permanently to permanently create a power as a psi-like ability that is usuable 2/day. The archpsion does not use any power points when manifesting the power, although a power that costs XP to manifest still does so. The manifester level for the psi-like ability is equal to the archpsion's manifester level. The power is considered to be augmented as a normal psi-like ability. This ability causes the character to permanently lose 9 pp plus the base cost of manifesting the power. [adapted from archmage "spell-like ability" entry.]
Mastery of Power Negation
An arch psion that knows the negate psionics power can select to alter it so that it can be used to counter spells and powers as dispel magic. When the arch psion successfully counters a spell or power, it is turned back on the caster or manifester as if it were fully affected by spell turning. If the spell or power cannot be affected by spell turning (for example, if it is an area or effect power), then it is merely countered. This ability causes the character to permanently lose 13 power points. [taken from mind's eye sight, pp sacrifice is augmented].
Psionic Energy Discharge
The arch psion gains the ability to channel raw psionic energy into a focused ray. The discharge is treated as a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of arch psion) and deals 1d4 points of damage per level of arch psion plus 1d4 points of damage for every power point channeled to create the effect. The amount of power points spent cannot exceed your level minus 1. This ability cannot be modified by the use of metapsionic feats. Therefore, a character with 14 levels of psion and a level of arch psion who channels 12 power points into psionic energy discharge deals 13d4 points of damage to the target if it hits. This ability causes the character to permanently lose 17 power points.
[taken from mind's eye sight, pp sacrifice is augmented].
Psionic Power
This ability increases the archpsion's effective manifester level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependant power variables such as range and duration where appropriate; also, this effects the maximum number of power points that may be spent in any round). This ability causes the character to permanently lose 9 power points. [adopted from spell power entry in archmage prestige class].
Sculpt Power
The archpsion can alter area and effect powers. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell's area or effect that are not subject to the power. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any sculptable powers have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability causes the character to permanently lose 9 power points. [adopted from mastery of shaping ability in the archmage prestige class; I dropped the change of shape ability since there are various powers that cover these and having this ability would make the rest of them obsolete].
Metapsionic Reduction
This ability reduces the amount of power points that is required to manifest a given metapsionic feat. Every time that this ability is gained, the power point cost for a given metapsionic feat is reduced by 1 power point (minimum of 1 power point). This ability causes the character to permanently lose 9 power points plus the current cost of the metapsionc feat's modification cost. For example, if an archpsion chose chain power, s/he would have to sacrifice 15 pp (9pp + 6pp the normal modification cost) but would be able to use the chain power feat for only 5 pp from there on out.
This ability may be selected more than once. It may be applied to a different power or the same power; however, the power point cost of any given metapsionic feat can never be lowered below 1 power point. [this is my own personal addition to the archpsion. I felt that with the loss of the psionic focus feats there was something missing from the prestige class that represented psionic mastery; therefore, I had the archpsion become a master of metapsionics as well].
Psionic Reach
The arch psion can use touch powers on targets up to 30 feet away. If the power requires a touch attack (melee or ranged), the arch psion must make a ranged touch attack. If selected a second time as a special ability, the range increases to 60 feet. This ability causes the character to permanently lose 13 power points. [taken from mind's eye sight, pp sacrifice is augmented].
[I dropped the psionic energy substitution since the new powers already allow you to select between different energy types].
I think the 14 levels of psion are ok. Tithian had trouble maintaining contact with Sadira's kank in Amber Enchantress but in Obsidian Oracle Tithian charmed all the slaves on the silt skimmer that Agis picked him up on; furthermore, Tithian gave Agis and the silt skimmer driver/levitator guy trouble that resulted in the death of the driver.
Also, I think I would give Tithian at least one more caster level in wizard since he was going to cast a lightning bolt during the giant attack on the silt skimmer armada.
I believe Ramar is closer to the mark here. I do not wish at this time to enter into this argument in full, but let us also recall that in order to use the lens, meaning to draw from its power by direct contact, one has to be a master in either psionics or magic, which, for 2nd edition purposes, I have considered to be 20th level. We have this "master" qualification multiple times from the PP. Tithian for instance is unable to draw energy to cast a spell from the Dark Lens while trapped in Kalak's old bag of infinite holding in the Obsidian Oracle. He fails to tap this energy, only burning himself, and from this Tithian deduces "as a mindbender, he was experienced enough to channel the power of the lens through his body without injury. But as a sorcerer, he could not control the savage energies" (OO, 295) Using 2nd edition rules (under the framework of which the Dark Lens was devised), I surmise that this and other similar evidence points to the fact that one had to be 20th level in either the psionicist or wizardly classes in order to access the powers of the lens. Tithian, we must recall, was trying to become a sorcerer-king (i.e. a dragon), and it seems Troy Denning had him following the required progression. For years the king had been questing for the Lens and other similar knowledge. It seems to me that he rose to 20th level, then dual classed over to the defiler class, and rose in that class to a powerful level as well. I deduce 20th level from the fact that Tithian was more than capable in his mastery of the Way in the OO as Ramar quite aptly reminds us, as indeed he was able to combat Agis and perform numerous other feats. Also, Tithian was capable of casting rather powerful spells. He nearly killed the sachem of the human head giants with some sort of choking/decapitation spell, a spell of considerable power which I must place at 6th level in the 2nd edition rules. In order to cast it, Tithian would need be at least a 12th level defiler, which would mean that if he were a more powerful psionicist, he would have to be considerably more powerful than 12th. 20th is the most logical place, to me, for the requirement to use the Lens to lie, especially since the Lens is of such extreme power.
From all this, in 2nd edition rules at least, I probably place Tithian as a triple dual classed character, namely a former ~12th level templar (high templar status, but not too high as in the City-State of Tyr supplement [wherein he is 17th], since he admits to himself that he was not given access by Kalak magic great enough to teleport the obsidian ziggurat to the arena floor [although this is highly debatable]), 20th level telepath and lastly a 12th level+ defiler. Indeed, he was quite the powerful usurper, but his stats were not terribly high for Dark Sun (Agis' being likely considerably higher), as I lean towards near agreement with the City-State of Tyr supplement's offer stat scores (S9 D14 C13 I18 W15 C16). Ironically, if one agrees with such stats, his constitution score would have disqualified him for dragon status (being 2 points off), and he would have died upon the attempt of the first dragon metamorphosis spell, should he try it without the aid of the Pristine Tower (if that would make a difference...).
Also, in the case that anyone is considering the Rkard argument for use of the Dark Lens, recall that Rkard cast his light spell through the lens, and did not actually touch it, and thus did not use the energy of the Lens to power his spell.
Again, it is my belief that one has to be 20th level to access the energy of the Lens for either magic or psionic purposes. I am aware of the Chief Nal discrepency (the beasthead giant leader), but recall that he did not need to touch the Lens to have access to its power. I believe his is a special case, as there seems to be able to be a "master" of the Lens should the Lens stay in a place long enough to form the crystal lattice-work around itself as it did at Castle Feral. I shall hopefully detail this aspect of the problem more accurately in a future thread on the Dark Lens itself.
Any comments or thoughts on this would be most welcomed.