Minrothad law and judicial process - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Minrothad law and judicial process

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
npc_dave
Jul 18, 2005 15:57:23 I have a couple of questions that I would like to collect some opinions on. Looking up the details for trials on the Minrothad Isles, I needed a little more information than the gazeteer provides.

1) All gambling is illegal in Minrothad, except for state approved lotteries. I see the logic, it is basically one more enforced monopoly in a nation that thrives on protecting its monopoly in trade. But this law strikes me as one which would be VERY unevenly enforced. Big cities would have underground gambling dens, but in the boonies like Blackrock, you would probably have open card and dice playing, with the local authorities turning a blind eye.
Anyone agree? Disagree?

2) Trials in Minrothad consist of judge and a jury of five. Obviously the jury votes on guilt while the judge runs the trial. But the gazeteer doesn't tell me what vote you need to convict. 3-2? 4-1? or unanimous? I am leaning to 4-1 for a conviction, although the jury consists of three guild members and two non-guild citizens. Since the guilds are so important, a 3-2 might be enough if the 3 are guild. On the other hand, non-guild citizens may have pushed for some right to prevent that from happening.
Thoughts?
#2
twin_campaigns
Jul 22, 2005 3:57:04 Interesting questions. I have been gamemastering a sub-campaign in
Minrothad for one of the PCs in my campaign for some time now. I have
written (and rewritten) quite a lot on Minrothad laws recently, but mostly
just for myself. I've been meaning to translate some of the stuff for Shawn's
Site, but there is never enough time - and my computer and the gaming stuff
are in different addresses.

I've never noticed these particular issues. But here is my two cents worth.

Question 1: What we have to remember that the "criminal" scene in
Minrothad is a special case. Whole of the Thieves' Guild is centrally
controlled and in close connection with Oran's rule. Of course there might
be some illicit gambling, along with blackmaketing of magic items etc. But
Alf Shadower gets so much out of the present deal (most likely a piece of
the action in the state lottery?), that the underworld itself is the best
possible control mechanism.

Question 2: Tutorial Guild, essentially the Mages' Guild, has supreme
authority in judiciary cases. The judges are always mages, and I would
think that they will also hire the services of the Minroth Church. "Truth" is
the central term here (although it is up to the DM how corrupt and interest-
laden the TG is).
So: I would think that the jury doesn't fill the same role as modern-day
juries. The judge has the supreme authority, and the jury acts as a sort
of a witness. Especially because according to the GAZ 3/5 of the jury is from
the accuser's own guild. If judgement was down to vote, the system would
be biased in favour of the accused. And this doesn't fit into the strict
climate in Minrothad. Death to Thieves and all that...

And a Question 3 of my own:
Does someone else consider the strict policy on spellcasting to be totally
implausible? Only Merchant Princes can cast freely? Anyone else needs
a TG supervisor? Who thought this out? This is a nation of ELVES,
for crying out loud!
#3
zombiegleemax
Jul 26, 2005 10:50:12 I ignore the policy on spell casting unless it causes a disturbance. One of those laws this isn't really inforced that seriously until a problem comes from it. You know, like no tail-gating on the highway or not using a turn signal properly. Most cops ignore these law breakings unless they are having a bad day and want to vent or someone is endangered by the action.
#4
npc_dave
Jul 26, 2005 20:14:05
Interesting questions. I have been gamemastering a sub-campaign in
Minrothad for one of the PCs in my campaign for some time now. I have
written (and rewritten) quite a lot on Minrothad laws recently, but mostly
just for myself. I've been meaning to translate some of the stuff for Shawn's
Site, but there is never enough time - and my computer and the gaming stuff
are in different addresses.

I've never noticed these particular issues. But here is my two cents worth.

Question 1: What we have to remember that the "criminal" scene in
Minrothad is a special case. Whole of the Thieves' Guild is centrally
controlled and in close connection with Oran's rule. Of course there might
be some illicit gambling, along with blackmaketing of magic items etc. But
Alf Shadower gets so much out of the present deal (most likely a piece of
the action in the state lottery?), that the underworld itself is the best
possible control mechanism.

That is true about the Thieves Guild, they would have an interest in stopping it. I love the idea of underground gambling dens though.

This only came up on Blackrock Isle so far, and that is such a backwater I decided to make card playing open there, with local officials turning a blind eye.

Question 2: Tutorial Guild, essentially the Mages' Guild, has supreme
authority in judiciary cases. The judges are always mages, and I would
think that they will also hire the services of the Minroth Church. "Truth" is
the central term here (although it is up to the DM how corrupt and interest-
laden the TG is).
So: I would think that the jury doesn't fill the same role as modern-day
juries. The judge has the supreme authority, and the jury acts as a sort
of a witness. Especially because according to the GAZ 3/5 of the jury is from
the accuser's own guild. If judgement was down to vote, the system would
be biased in favour of the accused. And this doesn't fit into the strict
climate in Minrothad. Death to Thieves and all that...

It only favors the accused if you belong to a guild, and if the accused is out of favor with the guild, it helps ensure a conviction. I decided to go with 3-2 being acceptable if the 3 are all guild members. I decided guilds would have pressed to make the law more favorable to their members.

In general juries are usually present to decide guilt or innocence, and I think that was what the author of the gazeteer had in mind, so I went with that as well.

But yeah, when it comes to assassination and theft, things swing heavily against the accused.

And a Question 3 of my own:
Does someone else consider the strict policy on spellcasting to be totally
implausible? Only Merchant Princes can cast freely? Anyone else needs
a TG supervisor? Who thought this out? This is a nation of ELVES,
for crying out loud!

This has always been a problem for Cook/Mentzer D&D. Yeah, either the law gets ignored by elves, or you drop the law, or you come up with some other compromise.

For myself, the law is in effect, and enforcement can be strict. But I ignore the stipulation about Merchant Princes can only cast freely. Instead, any Tutorial Guild member can cast spells freely, and the Tutorial Guild is open a bit more widely than just merchant princes. All elves on the Minrothad Isles who trace their lineage to water and wood elf clan are considered Tutorial Guild members for legal purposes, even if they have not formally joined the Tutorial Guild. Humans who are not merchant princes can also join if they are native and politically connected. Of course, humans cannot then be part of another guild.

My compromise keeps the spirit(mostly) of the Gazeteer while still being restrictive for non-natives and Minrothad humans.

Here's another question, did you put mostly humans or elves on Blackrock Isle? It never really specifies.
#5
twin_campaigns
Jul 28, 2005 1:53:14 Quote from NPC Dave:
"But I ignore the stipulation about Merchant Princes can only cast freely. Instead, any Tutorial Guild member can cast spells freely, and the Tutorial Guild is open a bit more widely than just merchant princes. All elves on the Minrothad Isles who trace their lineage to water and wood elf clan are considered Tutorial Guild members for legal purposes, even if they have not formally joined the Tutorial Guild. Humans who are not merchant princes can also join if they are native and politically connected. Of course, humans cannot then be part of another guild."

Actually if you read the books through very carefully, it doesn't say that the
Tutorial Guild is comprised only of Merchant Princes. They are a sub-guild
within the Tutorial Guild which is comprised by all magical schools (Instruction,
Artefacts...) groups and single users native to Minrothad. Or that at least was my interpretation. But the Gaz is very badly written, the information is scattered here and there. This piece of information was in the Player Book page 27 where Merchants are considered to be an associate guild.

So, accroding to the Gaz every magic-user must join the TG in order to
use magic. I have interpreted this in a strictly professional sense. If one wishes to use magic in a professional sense, that is in a family guild profession, TG license or membership is required. IMC I have an Office of
Trans-Guild Cooperation that supervises magic-use external to TG.

But for me it doesn't make sense that membership of TG would preclude
membership of another guild. If you look at the description of the society,
it cannot be so. Most of the population actually belongs to the Family guilds,
or the "ethnic guilds", but of course few guildsmen have much power or possessions. These guilds are not only part of the societal division of labour,
but the old elven-forced social truce between ethnic groups.

Tutorial Guild is not an ethnic guild, it is a Political Guild or a "service guild".
These two guild systems are not separate but interlayed. Most members of
Political Guilds are members of Family Guilds, unless they are hired foreign
experts who have gained citizenship, or they have relinguished Family Guild
membership due to loyalty to their Political Guild, or they are some of those
few guildless citizens who manage to climb up in the caste ladder.

(What's more, this makes the Minrothadian intrigue even more present.)

So for example the Merchant princes come from any family guild (PB 31), as
they are exalted traders who have received TG training. To be a trader one
has to be a Family Guild member. (Although the guild division of labour is
strange - technically the Corsers are the only ones who are allowed trading!
The text is a bit self-contradictory when it comes to this.)

Then again, page 8 of DMB says that the Princes, and the whole TG it seems,
become more loyal to each other than their original Family Guilds. This
notion is boring, intrigue-damaging, and it makes no sense to me. These
people are the very best (and thus most powerful) traders in their guilds,
guilds which for ages have been at each others throats. If the Merchant
Princes would bring in such a pacifying effect on the society, where does
all the conflict come from?

But this is a problem brought in by the ambivalence in the text. The
Merchant Princes were created as a PC class, a target for aspiring players.
But their role in the whole of the society was left too vague.

As for the TG in general, of course all the Family Guilds should have presence
there. Some guildsmen do indeed become loyal men/women of the
Tutorial Guild and become more loyal to the state than their interest
group (DMG p8), btu some are bound to keep their old interest-laden
views. This brings in the possibility of corrupt judiciary etc.

I like Minrothad as a concept, and I like some elements in the GAZ,
but it takes a lot of work to make it work.
#6
RPGpundit
Jul 28, 2005 2:43:00 My players despised Minrothad.

Of course, I ran it as though it was "government by totally corrupt socialist unions". Everything was heavily taxed, every union had a monopoly so products were massively overpriced, and there were a dozen regulations for every possible human action.

It reminded them too much of their country's current government. :D

RPGPundit

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 npc_dave Jul 18, 2005 15:57:23	I have a couple of questions that I would like to collect some opinions on. Looking up the details for trials on the Minrothad Isles, I needed a little more information than the gazeteer provides. 1) All gambling is illegal in Minrothad, except for state approved lotteries. I see the logic, it is basically one more enforced monopoly in a nation that thrives on protecting its monopoly in trade. But this law strikes me as one which would be VERY unevenly enforced. Big cities would have underground gambling dens, but in the boonies like Blackrock, you would probably have open card and dice playing, with the local authorities turning a blind eye. Anyone agree? Disagree? 2) Trials in Minrothad consist of judge and a jury of five. Obviously the jury votes on guilt while the judge runs the trial. But the gazeteer doesn't tell me what vote you need to convict. 3-2? 4-1? or unanimous? I am leaning to 4-1 for a conviction, although the jury consists of three guild members and two non-guild citizens. Since the guilds are so important, a 3-2 might be enough if the 3 are guild. On the other hand, non-guild citizens may have pushed for some right to prevent that from happening. Thoughts?
#2 twin_campaigns Jul 22, 2005 3:57:04	Interesting questions. I have been gamemastering a sub-campaign in Minrothad for one of the PCs in my campaign for some time now. I have written (and rewritten) quite a lot on Minrothad laws recently, but mostly just for myself. I've been meaning to translate some of the stuff for Shawn's Site, but there is never enough time - and my computer and the gaming stuff are in different addresses. I've never noticed these particular issues. But here is my two cents worth. Question 1: What we have to remember that the "criminal" scene in Minrothad is a special case. Whole of the Thieves' Guild is centrally controlled and in close connection with Oran's rule. Of course there might be some illicit gambling, along with blackmaketing of magic items etc. But Alf Shadower gets so much out of the present deal (most likely a piece of the action in the state lottery?), that the underworld itself is the best possible control mechanism. Question 2: Tutorial Guild, essentially the Mages' Guild, has supreme authority in judiciary cases. The judges are always mages, and I would think that they will also hire the services of the Minroth Church. "Truth" is the central term here (although it is up to the DM how corrupt and interest- laden the TG is). So: I would think that the jury doesn't fill the same role as modern-day juries. The judge has the supreme authority, and the jury acts as a sort of a witness. Especially because according to the GAZ 3/5 of the jury is from the accuser's own guild. If judgement was down to vote, the system would be biased in favour of the accused. And this doesn't fit into the strict climate in Minrothad. Death to Thieves and all that... And a Question 3 of my own: Does someone else consider the strict policy on spellcasting to be totally implausible? Only Merchant Princes can cast freely? Anyone else needs a TG supervisor? Who thought this out? This is a nation of ELVES, for crying out loud!
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 26, 2005 10:50:12	I ignore the policy on spell casting unless it causes a disturbance. One of those laws this isn't really inforced that seriously until a problem comes from it. You know, like no tail-gating on the highway or not using a turn signal properly. Most cops ignore these law breakings unless they are having a bad day and want to vent or someone is endangered by the action.
#4 npc_dave Jul 26, 2005 20:14:05	Interesting questions. I have been gamemastering a sub-campaign in Minrothad for one of the PCs in my campaign for some time now. I have written (and rewritten) quite a lot on Minrothad laws recently, but mostly just for myself. I've been meaning to translate some of the stuff for Shawn's Site, but there is never enough time - and my computer and the gaming stuff are in different addresses. I've never noticed these particular issues. But here is my two cents worth. Question 1: What we have to remember that the "criminal" scene in Minrothad is a special case. Whole of the Thieves' Guild is centrally controlled and in close connection with Oran's rule. Of course there might be some illicit gambling, along with blackmaketing of magic items etc. But Alf Shadower gets so much out of the present deal (most likely a piece of the action in the state lottery?), that the underworld itself is the best possible control mechanism. That is true about the Thieves Guild, they would have an interest in stopping it. I love the idea of underground gambling dens though. This only came up on Blackrock Isle so far, and that is such a backwater I decided to make card playing open there, with local officials turning a blind eye. Question 2: Tutorial Guild, essentially the Mages' Guild, has supreme authority in judiciary cases. The judges are always mages, and I would think that they will also hire the services of the Minroth Church. "Truth" is the central term here (although it is up to the DM how corrupt and interest- laden the TG is). So: I would think that the jury doesn't fill the same role as modern-day juries. The judge has the supreme authority, and the jury acts as a sort of a witness. Especially because according to the GAZ 3/5 of the jury is from the accuser's own guild. If judgement was down to vote, the system would be biased in favour of the accused. And this doesn't fit into the strict climate in Minrothad. Death to Thieves and all that... It only favors the accused if you belong to a guild, and if the accused is out of favor with the guild, it helps ensure a conviction. I decided to go with 3-2 being acceptable if the 3 are all guild members. I decided guilds would have pressed to make the law more favorable to their members. In general juries are usually present to decide guilt or innocence, and I think that was what the author of the gazeteer had in mind, so I went with that as well. But yeah, when it comes to assassination and theft, things swing heavily against the accused. And a Question 3 of my own: Does someone else consider the strict policy on spellcasting to be totally implausible? Only Merchant Princes can cast freely? Anyone else needs a TG supervisor? Who thought this out? This is a nation of ELVES, for crying out loud! This has always been a problem for Cook/Mentzer D&D. Yeah, either the law gets ignored by elves, or you drop the law, or you come up with some other compromise. For myself, the law is in effect, and enforcement can be strict. But I ignore the stipulation about Merchant Princes can only cast freely. Instead, any Tutorial Guild member can cast spells freely, and the Tutorial Guild is open a bit more widely than just merchant princes. All elves on the Minrothad Isles who trace their lineage to water and wood elf clan are considered Tutorial Guild members for legal purposes, even if they have not formally joined the Tutorial Guild. Humans who are not merchant princes can also join if they are native and politically connected. Of course, humans cannot then be part of another guild. My compromise keeps the spirit(mostly) of the Gazeteer while still being restrictive for non-natives and Minrothad humans. Here's another question, did you put mostly humans or elves on Blackrock Isle? It never really specifies.
#5 twin_campaigns Jul 28, 2005 1:53:14	Quote from NPC Dave: "But I ignore the stipulation about Merchant Princes can only cast freely. Instead, any Tutorial Guild member can cast spells freely, and the Tutorial Guild is open a bit more widely than just merchant princes. All elves on the Minrothad Isles who trace their lineage to water and wood elf clan are considered Tutorial Guild members for legal purposes, even if they have not formally joined the Tutorial Guild. Humans who are not merchant princes can also join if they are native and politically connected. Of course, humans cannot then be part of another guild." Actually if you read the books through very carefully, it doesn't say that the Tutorial Guild is comprised only of Merchant Princes. They are a sub-guild within the Tutorial Guild which is comprised by all magical schools (Instruction, Artefacts...) groups and single users native to Minrothad. Or that at least was my interpretation. But the Gaz is very badly written, the information is scattered here and there. This piece of information was in the Player Book page 27 where Merchants are considered to be an associate guild. So, accroding to the Gaz every magic-user must join the TG in order to use magic. I have interpreted this in a strictly professional sense. If one wishes to use magic in a professional sense, that is in a family guild profession, TG license or membership is required. IMC I have an Office of Trans-Guild Cooperation that supervises magic-use external to TG. But for me it doesn't make sense that membership of TG would preclude membership of another guild. If you look at the description of the society, it cannot be so. Most of the population actually belongs to the Family guilds, or the "ethnic guilds", but of course few guildsmen have much power or possessions. These guilds are not only part of the societal division of labour, but the old elven-forced social truce between ethnic groups. Tutorial Guild is not an ethnic guild, it is a Political Guild or a "service guild". These two guild systems are not separate but interlayed. Most members of Political Guilds are members of Family Guilds, unless they are hired foreign experts who have gained citizenship, or they have relinguished Family Guild membership due to loyalty to their Political Guild, or they are some of those few guildless citizens who manage to climb up in the caste ladder. (What's more, this makes the Minrothadian intrigue even more present.) So for example the Merchant princes come from any family guild (PB 31), as they are exalted traders who have received TG training. To be a trader one has to be a Family Guild member. (Although the guild division of labour is strange - technically the Corsers are the only ones who are allowed trading! The text is a bit self-contradictory when it comes to this.) Then again, page 8 of DMB says that the Princes, and the whole TG it seems, become more loyal to each other than their original Family Guilds. This notion is boring, intrigue-damaging, and it makes no sense to me. These people are the very best (and thus most powerful) traders in their guilds, guilds which for ages have been at each others throats. If the Merchant Princes would bring in such a pacifying effect on the society, where does all the conflict come from? But this is a problem brought in by the ambivalence in the text. The Merchant Princes were created as a PC class, a target for aspiring players. But their role in the whole of the society was left too vague. As for the TG in general, of course all the Family Guilds should have presence there. Some guildsmen do indeed become loyal men/women of the Tutorial Guild and become more loyal to the state than their interest group (DMG p8), btu some are bound to keep their old interest-laden views. This brings in the possibility of corrupt judiciary etc. I like Minrothad as a concept, and I like some elements in the GAZ, but it takes a lot of work to make it work.
#6 RPGpundit Jul 28, 2005 2:43:00	My players despised Minrothad. Of course, I ran it as though it was "government by totally corrupt socialist unions". Everything was heavily taxed, every union had a monopoly so products were massively overpriced, and there were a dozen regulations for every possible human action. It reminded them too much of their country's current government. :D RPGPundit