d20 Then Back to Alternity - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

d20 Then Back to Alternity

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 18, 2005 16:35:30 Howdy. Just checking in on the Alternity board here. It's a lonely place compared to http://www.alternityrpg.net (cue crickets)

Anyway I was wondering if anyone had tried d20 Modern or Future then returned to Alternity once they determined the system didn't quite handle game scenarios in a satisfactory manner. I realized the d20 system wasn't my cup of tea when the DM started the game with the players in the middle of a gunfight. We were outnumbered and surrounded. I was worried at first but then I took my first wound with little effect and realized it wasn't as scary with all the hit points my character had. A little disappointing because I was taken out of the dramatic moment by this bit of metathinking. The durability and damage of the d20 system is a big con for me. It just doesn't have the feeling of immediate danger that I have enjoyed in the Alternity system.

Anyone else have a similar experience?
#2
Monteblanco
Jul 19, 2005 21:46:39 I have little experience with both systems but I think Alternity has an edge by providing a more believable combat experience, more flexibility in character generation and by using the metric system. In the other hand, d20 Modern is a single volume, which would be a workable presentation to Alternity if TSR wasn't so interested in make a few bucks by selling two volumes instead of one.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jul 20, 2005 17:03:59 I think the main problem is that d20 Modern is still as much fantasy as DnD or Star Wars. In fantasy, the hero almost never dies, he take great wounds in stride and slaughters thousands with a swing of his sword/axe/spear/etc. Alternity is Science Fiction, with an emphasis on science. It is believable because it is grounded in reality.

Oggie
#4
ranger_reg
Jul 20, 2005 21:17:36
I think the main problem is that d20 Modern is still as much fantasy as DnD or Star Wars. In fantasy, the hero almost never dies, he take great wounds in stride and slaughters thousands with a swing of his sword/axe/spear/etc.

Until the damage exceeds the victim's Massive Damage Threshold (equal to Con score, not D&D threshold's 50 points; see DMG) and victim misses his Fort saving throw that would immediate reduce his HP to 0 (if nonlethal attack) or -1 (if lethal attack).

Of course, many of us accept the way d20 Modern is, especially when many of us play non-FX games. I'm not looking for the best ruleset, I'm just looking to enjoy the game.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jul 20, 2005 22:06:03
I think the main problem is that d20 Modern is still as much fantasy as DnD or Star Wars. In fantasy, the hero almost never dies, he take great wounds in stride and slaughters thousands with a swing of his sword/axe/spear/etc. Alternity is Science Fiction, with an emphasis on science. It is believable because it is grounded in reality.

Oggie

Yeah. It's kind of like the heroes are minor demigods of a sort. I actually think the d20 damage system resembles a video game rather than fantasy literature or cinema. Even the action in RPG books cannot be simulated in the game. The game mechanics are unable to simulate anything but video games. That is the reason I am going to use the Alternity rules for my fantasy games as well. I just like the heroic feel of it.
#6
zombiegleemax
Jul 21, 2005 10:46:17
Until the damage exceeds the victim's Massive Damage Threshold (equal to Con score, not D&D threshold's 50 points; see DMG) and victim misses his Fort saving throw that would immediate reduce his HP to 0 (if nonlethal attack) or -1 (if lethal attack).

A very clunky solution. Another reason I don't like d20. A bunch of patchwork rules to jump from one genre to another. Makes me thankful for Alternity even more.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jul 21, 2005 16:33:46 I hear you. D20 Modern is actually good if you don't have much/any combat (like my exploration campaign), but then there aren't any +whatevers either. But then, I am growing increasingly disenchanted with fantasy systems in general. Maybe I'm just getting old...

Oggie
#8
ranger_reg
Jul 23, 2005 21:45:11 I dunno. I have to set up a lot of combat encounters for d20 Modern gaming sessions which is what my group want.

P.S. I doubt you're older than 36, OGAM. :P
#9
Monteblanco
Jul 24, 2005 8:22:29
Until the damage exceeds the victim's Massive Damage Threshold (equal to Con score, not D&D threshold's 50 points; see DMG) and victim misses his Fort saving throw that would immediate reduce his HP to 0 (if nonlethal attack) or -1 (if lethal attack).
[...]

The problem is, based in my perception of the rules as written and not gameplay, is that firearms make to little damage to trigger massive damage threshold. As written, only a critical hit or a larger gun with good rolls will threaten a character with Con 14+. As such, I am afraid that in d20 Modern, an exchange of shots might be trivial, instead of a frightening experience.

The MSD rule is pretty good, but the implementation is lacking. I recall the Call of Cthulhu d20 set the threshold in 10. This would probably work better, but then, why trouble with hit points if most attacks can lead you to to the MSD? I prefer Alternity wound rules, but that's me.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jul 24, 2005 15:31:54 Monteblanco-There's a long series of posts in the d20 section ("Bang Bang", iirc) that deals with weapons and alternate damage. Read it and take notes on what looks good. Then try it out. (It might be a good idea to NOT use the regular characters with a tweak you aren't sure about. People get upset when they die.)

REG-I'm pushing it. But then the real world is getting pretty surreal these days too...
I still prefer to avoid combat scenes.

Oggie
#11
Monteblanco
Jul 24, 2005 22:54:10 Oggie -- Thanks for the answer. I am pretty sure that the MSD implementation in d20 Modern can be easily fixed. However, it will not change the fact that ordinary points became somewhat superfluos. Quite frankly, Alternity wound system works better for me as it is more abstract and realistic.
#12
zombiegleemax
Aug 11, 2005 18:18:06 Background: been at this hobby for 27 years. Still hate d20 based systems. But... it seems everyone can easily understand and work with them, so I put up with it, and tweak everything else....

In response to your post, the best d20 based resolution to the threat of "real" combat seems to be reflected in the Star Wars variation of d20, handled by vitality (hit points) and wounds (constitution points). I ran in to the sames issues (massive vitality makes some characters seem unstoppable), with only a chance critical roll being a real threat. So I dug up an old copy of the critical hit tables from the Dragon Magazine (can't remember the issue, but its old too), put it in Excel, and made adjustments for different types of weapons. Now combat is considerable more threatening, not just "you take 15 points, your roll" prattle. The risk of instant death, losing limbs, eyes, STAT POINTS, or just damage point multiplers from ANY level opponent has put more drama (and tactics, and cover, and real "fear") back into the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 18, 2005 16:35:30	Howdy. Just checking in on the Alternity board here. It's a lonely place compared to http://www.alternityrpg.net (cue crickets) Anyway I was wondering if anyone had tried d20 Modern or Future then returned to Alternity once they determined the system didn't quite handle game scenarios in a satisfactory manner. I realized the d20 system wasn't my cup of tea when the DM started the game with the players in the middle of a gunfight. We were outnumbered and surrounded. I was worried at first but then I took my first wound with little effect and realized it wasn't as scary with all the hit points my character had. A little disappointing because I was taken out of the dramatic moment by this bit of metathinking. The durability and damage of the d20 system is a big con for me. It just doesn't have the feeling of immediate danger that I have enjoyed in the Alternity system. Anyone else have a similar experience?
#2 Monteblanco Jul 19, 2005 21:46:39	I have little experience with both systems but I think Alternity has an edge by providing a more believable combat experience, more flexibility in character generation and by using the metric system. In the other hand, d20 Modern is a single volume, which would be a workable presentation to Alternity if TSR wasn't so interested in make a few bucks by selling two volumes instead of one.
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 20, 2005 17:03:59	I think the main problem is that d20 Modern is still as much fantasy as DnD or Star Wars. In fantasy, the hero almost never dies, he take great wounds in stride and slaughters thousands with a swing of his sword/axe/spear/etc. Alternity is Science Fiction, with an emphasis on science. It is believable because it is grounded in reality. Oggie
#4 ranger_reg Jul 20, 2005 21:17:36	I think the main problem is that d20 Modern is still as much fantasy as DnD or Star Wars. In fantasy, the hero almost never dies, he take great wounds in stride and slaughters thousands with a swing of his sword/axe/spear/etc. Until the damage exceeds the victim's Massive Damage Threshold (equal to Con score, not D&D threshold's 50 points; see DMG) and victim misses his Fort saving throw that would immediate reduce his HP to 0 (if nonlethal attack) or -1 (if lethal attack). Of course, many of us accept the way d20 Modern is, especially when many of us play non-FX games. I'm not looking for the best ruleset, I'm just looking to enjoy the game.
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 20, 2005 22:06:03	I think the main problem is that d20 Modern is still as much fantasy as DnD or Star Wars. In fantasy, the hero almost never dies, he take great wounds in stride and slaughters thousands with a swing of his sword/axe/spear/etc. Alternity is Science Fiction, with an emphasis on science. It is believable because it is grounded in reality. Oggie Yeah. It's kind of like the heroes are minor demigods of a sort. I actually think the d20 damage system resembles a video game rather than fantasy literature or cinema. Even the action in RPG books cannot be simulated in the game. The game mechanics are unable to simulate anything but video games. That is the reason I am going to use the Alternity rules for my fantasy games as well. I just like the heroic feel of it.
#6 zombiegleemax Jul 21, 2005 10:46:17	Until the damage exceeds the victim's Massive Damage Threshold (equal to Con score, not D&D threshold's 50 points; see DMG) and victim misses his Fort saving throw that would immediate reduce his HP to 0 (if nonlethal attack) or -1 (if lethal attack). A very clunky solution. Another reason I don't like d20. A bunch of patchwork rules to jump from one genre to another. Makes me thankful for Alternity even more.
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 21, 2005 16:33:46	I hear you. D20 Modern is actually good if you don't have much/any combat (like my exploration campaign), but then there aren't any +whatevers either. But then, I am growing increasingly disenchanted with fantasy systems in general. Maybe I'm just getting old... Oggie
#8 ranger_reg Jul 23, 2005 21:45:11	I dunno. I have to set up a lot of combat encounters for d20 Modern gaming sessions which is what my group want. P.S. I doubt you're older than 36, OGAM. :P
#9 Monteblanco Jul 24, 2005 8:22:29	Until the damage exceeds the victim's Massive Damage Threshold (equal to Con score, not D&D threshold's 50 points; see DMG) and victim misses his Fort saving throw that would immediate reduce his HP to 0 (if nonlethal attack) or -1 (if lethal attack). [...] The problem is, based in my perception of the rules as written and not gameplay, is that firearms make to little damage to trigger massive damage threshold. As written, only a critical hit or a larger gun with good rolls will threaten a character with Con 14+. As such, I am afraid that in d20 Modern, an exchange of shots might be trivial, instead of a frightening experience. The MSD rule is pretty good, but the implementation is lacking. I recall the Call of Cthulhu d20 set the threshold in 10. This would probably work better, but then, why trouble with hit points if most attacks can lead you to to the MSD? I prefer Alternity wound rules, but that's me.
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 24, 2005 15:31:54	Monteblanco-There's a long series of posts in the d20 section ("Bang Bang", iirc) that deals with weapons and alternate damage. Read it and take notes on what looks good. Then try it out. (It might be a good idea to NOT use the regular characters with a tweak you aren't sure about. People get upset when they die.) REG-I'm pushing it. But then the real world is getting pretty surreal these days too... I still prefer to avoid combat scenes. Oggie
#11 Monteblanco Jul 24, 2005 22:54:10	Oggie -- Thanks for the answer. I am pretty sure that the MSD implementation in d20 Modern can be easily fixed. However, it will not change the fact that ordinary points became somewhat superfluos. Quite frankly, Alternity wound system works better for me as it is more abstract and realistic.
#12 zombiegleemax Aug 11, 2005 18:18:06	Background: been at this hobby for 27 years. Still hate d20 based systems. But... it seems everyone can easily understand and work with them, so I put up with it, and tweak everything else.... In response to your post, the best d20 based resolution to the threat of "real" combat seems to be reflected in the Star Wars variation of d20, handled by vitality (hit points) and wounds (constitution points). I ran in to the sames issues (massive vitality makes some characters seem unstoppable), with only a chance critical roll being a real threat. So I dug up an old copy of the critical hit tables from the Dragon Magazine (can't remember the issue, but its old too), put it in Excel, and made adjustments for different types of weapons. Now combat is considerable more threatening, not just "you take 15 points, your roll" prattle. The risk of instant death, losing limbs, eyes, STAT POINTS, or just damage point multiplers from ANY level opponent has put more drama (and tactics, and cover, and real "fear") back into the game.