Do any of you 3.0/3.5e players or DMs use house rule modifiers for the Human subraces? Meaning, do you have ability modifiers for Suels, Bakluns, etc., similar to the way Elven subraces have varying ability modifiers?
Special skills that each Human subrace uniquely possesses?
Conversely, does anyone think this would be a terrible idea? If so, why?
Thanks for any ideas or input.
--Ghul
Personally, I do not use them in 3E (for humans I mean). On the other hand, I consider one can either have a 'generic' (read: of mixed blood) human OR a 'pure' human. The first option is the way humans are treated in the PHB. No more, no less. The second option means you get a favored class (same as the non-human races), access to certain racial feats/classes/PrC, etc.. that 'lesser' humans can't (normally) have.
For instance, Monk is only allowed (in my game) to a Suel or Bakluni. Shadow Dancer is restricted to Bakluni. Psi classes too. And so forth...
Lately, I have been toying with the idea of using the system from Conan d20 (Mongoose Publishing) for the different human ethnic groups.
Do any of you 3.0/3.5e players or DMs use house rule modifiers for the Human subraces? Meaning, do you have ability modifiers for Suels, Bakluns, etc., similar to the way Elven subraces have varying ability modifiers?
I personally don`t use any ability modifiers for the different human subraces. But, what I've found interesting are the articles about Greyhawk regional feats from Dragon magazine. IIRC the isssues were #315 and #319.
Saludos,
Gabriel
I personally don`t use any ability modifiers for the different human subraces. But, what I've found interesting are the articles about Greyhawk regional feats from Dragon magazine. IIRC the isssues were #315 and #319.
Saludos,
Gabriel
I take a little from Column A and a little from Column B by giving the players a choice of a free regional feat from Dragon #315 and #319 at 1st level. They effectively get a minor racial bonus with this.
I like your idea of favored classes. I also like the Monk idea, but I don't prefer the absoluteness of it; meaning, there is always the small chance a Human from another ethnic group may get adopted by a monastery of Monks and learn of their ways. I think there can always be exceptions. That being said, I don't see how Monks would be a common class in Greyhawk. Besides, the 3E Monk really drives me crazy.
Carlanco:
I like this idea. Coming out of a series of home-brew campaigns over the past 10 years, I am about to take my players into their first "official" setting in over a decade. I want to make it special, and I was considering doing something on the idea of Human subrace ability modifiers -- for the "pure" races that is; mixed bloods are to be considered the "common" strain, predominant in the center of the Flanaess.
*However*
I am greatly intrigued by your idea of giving a bonus regional feat. It would be something special for all the races in the game, and those two Dragon pieces are excellent, IMO. Thanks for the idea.
--Ghul
I am greatly intrigued by your idea of giving a bonus regional feat. It would be something special for all the races in the game, and those two Dragon pieces are excellent, IMO. Thanks for the idea.
You're welcome! It's a best to have the players create their backgrounds first before selecting a regional feat. It worked really well in my campaign; the players created rich character backgrounds that touched on events from the Greyhawk Wars. Giving them a free regional feat not only gave them minor racial traits, but also allowed them to tie together their backgrounds with game mechanics. They actually chose feats that related to those backgrounds instead of feats for power gaming. Making them free reduces the chance of min-maxing with those feats because they are less likely to try to "get more bang for their buck." It's free so it's not a waste to pick a feat that gives a +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks or grants all Knowledge skills as class skills.
Instead of using the +2/-2 method that the v3.5 PHB uses, I have given the various sub-races a +1/-1 (varying upon sub-race). For humans, I think that the variation on attributes would be less pronounced then with demi-humans.
........................................Omote
FPQ
You're welcome! It's a best to have the players create their backgrounds first before selecting a regional feat. It worked really well in my campaign; the players created rich character backgrounds that touched on events from the Greyhawk Wars. Giving them a free regional feat not only gave them minor racial traits, but also allowed them to tie together their backgrounds with game mechanics. They actually chose feats that related to those backgrounds instead of feats for power gaming.
Unfortunately, 3 out of my six players are _completely_ Greyhawk ignorant, 2 of the six know a little about Greyhawk, and only 1 of the six is well schooled in the setting. I like your ideas, but it's going to take more nurturing on my part if I were to do the same in my campaign.
Making them free reduces the chance of min-maxing with those feats because they are less likely to try to "get more bang for their buck." It's free so it's not a waste to pick a feat that gives a +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks or grants all Knowledge skills as class skills.
Very good point. But I know a few of my players will try to get that best bang, tailoring their free regional feat to the strengths of their character, but I am going to push for them to consider using the feat for better RP purposes. Thanks again. You've sparked my imagination for this thing. I want to make the Greyhawk campaign fun and different than what they are used to in our home-brew game.
--Ghul
I have as well used the regional FEATS listed in the 2 Dragon articles for my GH players. While I don't give humans another feat for free, I have modified each sub-races bonus/penalty to their attributes for chossing that race.
Instead of using the +2/-2 method that the v3.5 PHB uses, I have given the various sub-races a +1/-1 (varying upon sub-race). For humans, I think that the variation on attributes would be less pronounced then with demi-humans.
........................................Omote
FPQ
Would you mind posting what you came up with for your Human sub-race modifiers? I'm curious about how you approached the subraces, because I have a problem coming up with Suloise modifiers -- I think Scarlet Brotherhood types would have different modifiers than, say, the Frost Barbarians. Same sub-race, genetically, but their distinct cultural and environmental adaptations leads me to think that there could be differences within the sub-races, which may be more of a headache than I am willing to deal with. :-)
--Ghul
Unfortunately, 3 out of my six players are _completely_ Greyhawk ignorant, 2 of the six know a little about Greyhawk, and only 1 of the six is well schooled in the setting. I like your ideas, but it's going to take more nurturing on my part if I were to do the same in my campaign.
Very good point. But I know a few of my players will try to get that best bang, tailoring their free regional feat to the strengths of their character, but I am going to push for them to consider using the feat for better RP purposes. Thanks again. You've sparked my imagination for this thing. I want to make the Greyhawk campaign fun and different than what they are used to in our home-brew game.
--Ghul
You might want to consider making the Official History of the Greyhawk Wars a required reading before you have them create characters, too. It's a powerful introduction to the Greyhawk Campaign Setting for new players. None of my players knew anything about Greyhawk, and they all loved writing their backgrounds based on the events during the wars. It even compelled most of them to buy the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.
For instance, someone who has lived all his life on a frozen tundra where eating means fighting for your life and where letting your fire die is akin to suicide will be tougher physically than, say, someone living in a kingdom where water & food are plentiful, it's warm all year, and the most dangerous creature you can face is your neighbor's dog.. or the tax collector.
For instance, someone who has lived all his life on a frozen tundra where eating means fighting for your life and where letting your fire die is akin to suicide will be tougher physically than, say, someone living in a kingdom where water & food are plentiful, it's warm all year, and the most dangerous creature you can face is your neighbor's dog.. or the tax collector.
There's actually not a lot of basis to that. The tundra barbarian will have learned the skills to survive in the cold, but it doesn't mean he's *innately* better able to survive - unless there's some sort of trial of exposure of infants or children that weeds out the "weaker" types in early childhood (disease and natural infant mortality notwithstanding). The actual physical and physiological differences between your tundra dweller and your temperate kingdom peasent aren't significant, unless there's been thousands upon thousands of years of divergence between the populations - which isn't the case of humans in the Flanaess.
IMO, the way to handle the difference between a northlander barbarian and a peasent is to allocate more points to Con in character generation or give him the best roll of your six, not adding on innate modifiers.
Now, giving cultural, national and social class emphases (pluses to certain skills, regional feats etc) is another story entirely. They make a whole lot of sense.
There's actually not a lot of basis to that. The tundra barbarian will have learned the skills to survive in the cold, but it doesn't mean he's *innately* better able to survive - unless there's some sort of trial of exposure of infants or children that weeds out the "weaker" types in early childhood (disease and natural infant mortality notwithstanding). The actual physical and physiological differences between your tundra dweller and your temperate kingdom peasent aren't significant, unless there's been thousands upon thousands of years of divergence between the populations - which isn't the case of humans in the Flanaess.
Yes and no. Sure, having the right skills and the proper equipment will play a big part in that equation but I do not believe that such a culture could survive/thrive with individuals who haven't 'adapted' to their surroundings as well. Heck, it's the first law of Nature: natural selection. The fittest survives and prospers while the weakest dies.
In our current world, we have reached a point where technological progress is such that we can counterbalance that effect.. to a certain degree. Hence, individuals which wouldn't have survived a day beyond their birth - say, during Stone Age - can now grow, reach adulthood and lead a healthy life. That has certainly become true in the so-called 'civilized Western World'. Unfortunately, it also means that such individuals, when faced with the worst Nature can throw at them, are often ill-prepared to resist & survive when they can't fall back on their usual 'gadgets' (drugs, special clothes, etc..). Let's face it, as a whole, our race is now weaker (physically speaking).
Now, can that be true of the different nations of the Flanaess? For some, I would argue it is. Let's compare, for instance, suel barbarians from the Thilonian Peninsula and suel folks from the SB. Different styles of life, different climates, hence physical differences. Note that I say 'physical'. While I would condone such modifiers, I wouldn't accept 'intellectual' modifiers because I do believe all ethnic groups of the human race are endowed with the same basic mental capabilities at birth.
Yes and no. Sure, having the right skills and the proper equipment will play a big part in that equation but I do not believe that such a culture could survive/thrive with individuals who haven't 'adapted' to their surroundings as well. Heck, it's the first law of Nature: natural selection. The fittest survives and prospers while the weakest dies.
Ya - but it takes a lot (and by a lot, I mean in the thousands) of generations before that makes a significant impact on the genetic composition of the population (depending on the severity of the selection pressure obviously). Evolution is slooooooow.
Let's face it, as a whole, our race is now weaker (physically speaking).
Well - without getting into a complicated (and OT) argument about genetic drift in populations, that's not quite true. As you say, technology has reduced infant mortality and increased survival rates (in the western world anyway - and that still leaves out the majority of people on the planet), but it's only been doing that on a small scale since the Enlightenment and on a nation wide scale in the western world since about 1900 (or arguably later - say 1950). The net effect on the human race as a whole in terms of its genome and innate ability to survive is nil. The genetic traits that made great-grandfather x10 a hardened Roman legionaire, a Germanic tribesman, a warrior of Great Zimbabwe or whatever haven't been lost from the population because we have antibiotics, drive SUVs and drink skinny lattes.
What has happened is that people in the developed world have lost the cultural skills for survival (as those crappy survival and modern-people-living in-the-conditions-of-the-past reality shows demonstrate). Can you plough a field with horse and hand plough? I can't, but my grandfather could. I'd argue that given the good nutirition and healthcare I've got from living at the end of the 20 century instead of the start, I'm probably healthier than grandpappy when he was my age. Not as strong, but only because I drink skinny lattes instead of ploughing fields.
Anyway - this is way OT...
Now, can that be true of the different nations of the Flanaess? For some, I would argue it is. Let's compare, for instance, suel barbarians from the Thilonian Peninsula and suel folks from the SB. Different styles of life, different climates, hence physical differences. Note that I say 'physical'. While I would condone such modifiers, I wouldn't accept 'intellectual' modifiers because I do believe all ethnic groups of the human race are endowed with the same basic mental capabilities at birth.
I repectfully disagree. The length of time since the Thillonrian Suel diverged from the Shari Suel is about 1,000 years. Despite the different selection pressures on the two populations, the genetic drift between the two will be relatively small (founder effects not withstanding*). "Weak" children will still be born to the Schnai; very robust kids will be born in Hesuel Ilshar. The difference is the weak kids in the north may not survive to adulthood (they might not survive in Hesuel Ilshar either - given the SB's eugenic attitudes to weakness). But because of the complicated way that genes work, that doesn't necessarily make the Thillonrian Suel population incrementally genetically tougher. It depends on the gene - relatively few single genes have profound effects on viability (compared to the total number of genes); usually it's a combination of genes - so if the "weak" child dies, you eliminate the combination, not the individual genes that made up the combo - they're still in the population (too much detail for D&D, but humour me
). So there is a case to say that an individual adult Fruz has a good chance of being tougher than an individual adult Shari, but that's better handled IMO by giving the Fruz 18 Con when you're rolling or allocating ability scores, rather than giving innate Con bonuses. On a population wide scale though - there wouldn't be any significant innate difference that'd warrent an innate Con bonus. It's a small point, and not one that should interfere with yer enjoyment of D&D or GH, but that's my reasoning for not liking innate racial bonuses to humans (I've less of a problem with olve and the like as they're fantasy).
Of course, YMMV.
P.
Anyway, I think regional feats is the best way to handle it all. It doesn't affect much, and it's enough of a distinction to bring the cultural differences into game mechanics.
I am a biologist by trade,
Snap! (well, by training at least).
That said, I admit we both have valid arguments. It's one of those cases where we have to agree to disagree
Good lord! Are we allowed to just shake hands and be civilised on the internet these days? Shouldn't we have a bit of a flame war (or at least a skirmish?) for the sake of appearances? If we keep on like this, people will start thinking we're not real GH fans with all this agreeing and stuff. :D
P.
Reminded of the Red vs Blue Guide to the Internet:
Politics - Real World
"I see your point of view, but I respectfully disagree."
Politics - the Internet
"Die! Die! Die!"
:D
(I've less of a problem with olve and the like as they're fantasy).
As far as the olvenfolk go, I'm inclined to say the various subspecies came to Oerth from different worlds and planes, and have only associated with one another substantially since the great human migrations.
Originally, based on the Oerth Journal #1 timeline, I assume that the gray elves dwelled primarily in the Suel basin. The high elves dwelled in the Flanaess, lording over their sylvan and grugach cousins, who used Seheninite moon-gates to arrive from elsewhere.
The drow and valley elves are descended from the gray-olves. The drow changed slowly, breeding with demons and undergoing other magical rites to change themselves physically, while the valley elves are essentially unchanged - their difference is only cultural, since they refused to aid either side during the elven civil war.
Hobniz, noniz, and dwur I honestly haven't thought about. Perhaps I ought to.
Snap! (well, by training at least).
Touché! :P
Good lord! Are we allowed to just shake hands and be civilised on the internet these days? Shouldn't we have a bit of a flame war (or at least a skirmish?) for the sake of appearances? If we keep on like this, people will start thinking we're not real GH fans with all this agreeing and stuff. :D
Well, you know what they say.. the day two GH fans will agree on anything is the day you'll catch the Father of Obedience eating turnips :D
Hobniz, noniz, and dwur I honestly haven't thought about. Perhaps I ought to.
Rip there's already some nice material on the Dwur:
The runes of the dwur timeline(RD):
http://hem.passagen.se/warlich/Greyhawk/World/the_world__greyhawk.html ->Dwarves Runes and Migrations
and this:
http://billg350.tripod.com/races_of_greyhawk.htm
There`s some great fan made material on the Dwur in GH tying in the Axe of dwarvish lords into the history of the Flanaess. I believe most of it is in french though. I've started a translation but never finished it.
The articles are "Personnages Dwur" and "Les clans de Dwur" (a detailed compilation and extrapolation on Dwur history) by Laurent Debelle and Stéphane Tanguay (Les Faconniers) .
French versions available here:
http://perso.netultra.net/ggf/biblio.htm
Here are some modifiers I used for human subraces.
Baklunish: +2 Appraise and +2 Diplomacy. The Baklunish have an eye for rare and valuable items and are adept negotiators.
Flan: +2 Ride and +2 Swim. Numerous nomadic traditions are found among the Flan making horses a common fixture. Traversing large bodies of water or crossing rivers is often a necessary part of nomadism.
Oeridian: +2 Handle Animal and +2 Jump. Oeridians are skilled at animal husbandry and maintain some of their vigor from their days of warmongering.
Olman: +2 Spot and +2 Survival. The aboriginal Olman traditionally learn a number of wilderness survival skills.
Rhenee: +2 Bluff and +2 Gather Information. Many Rhenee develop a knack for the telling of fibs to escape oppression and keep strong information networks in those regions where they dwell.
Suloise: +2 Intimidate and Sense Motive. Suloise are innately brash and suspicious.
Touv: +2 Balance and +2 Climb. As deep jungle-dwellers, natural selection has favored nimble and resilient members of the Touv tribes.
I'll stay out of the biology debate...
Here are some modifiers I used for human subraces.
Baklunish: +2 Appraise and +2 Diplomacy. The Baklunish have an eye for rare and valuable items and are adept negotiators.
Flan: +2 Ride and +2 Swim. Numerous nomadic traditions are found among the Flan making horses a common fixture. Traversing large bodies of water or crossing rivers is often a necessary part of nomadism.
<---snip-->.
I like the ideas presented on this thread. IMC, I will intend to make the following Human races available as PCs:
* "Mixed" or "Common" Human
* Baklunish
* Flan
* Oeridian
* Olman
* Suloise
I like the idea of the skill modifications presented by airwalkrr and the free regional feat by Amaril. To keep Humans "balanced" with the other races, I may take away the four free skill points all Humans begin with -- except for the case of the "Common" Human strain. Thanks!
--Ghul