Some have suggested converting the genie rulers (the caliph of the djinn, the sultan of the efreet, etc.) as quasideities with divine rank 0 (or even higher). That seemed wrong to me, since I like the idea that they're of a similar power level with other nobles who might act as rivals and even usurp them.
However, it occured to me that all genie nobles might have DR 0 or more; in the history of the Al-Qadim campaign, there was a war between gods and genies in the time of the Loregiver, and they were evenly matched. A similar war is mentioned in Green Ronin's The Book of the Righteous and Book of Fiends, where genies rose against the gods and it took time and effort before they were finally put down. And it seems to me that an army with hundreds or even thousands of quasideities might prove a challenge to Zakhara's relatively small pantheon and whatever allies they mustered.
Well, anyway, I really like the idea. Common genies have stats similar to the official D&D genie stats, while genie nobles have the advantages of quasideities, at least; they're an ancient race of beings personifying the elemental provinces of magic. They're able to deal with gods and fiendish lords as equals.
I wouldn't want to make them more powerful, however, than the rest of their planar cohorts. Quasi-divinity is okay if it is not too unbalancing, but if it would raise them an order of magnitude above the arch-fiends or achomentals, then that wouldn't feel right to me.
Although, I wonder if we shouldn't reserve divine ranks for the truly godly, those entities that derive their power from a divine source. Maybe there should be a difference drawn between what is god-like in power and what is truly divine.
I wish there were an alternative power track for non-divine cosmic entities. Perhaps something like "Arcane Ranks." I think Dice-Freaks uses something called Virtual Divine Rank, which may or may not be close to what I am talking about.
Anyway, I think there should be a scale for ranking non-divine cosmic entities that are like unto gods, and who rule layers and planes (or portions of them) but who are not actually deities and don't have divine ranks. And posessing ranks on this alternate scale might grant qualities and abilities commensurate with a similarly placed being with divine ranks.
Some have suggested converting the genie rulers (the caliph of the djinn, the sultan of the efreet, etc.) as quasideities with divine rank 0 (or even higher). That seemed wrong to me, since I like the idea that they're of a similar power level with other nobles who might act as rivals and even usurp them.
In 2e the Grand Sultan of the Efreet had the capabilities of a greater power with viziers who were on par with lesser powers, so I'm going to side with those who say that the genie rulers should be quasideity status or better. However, I think that it is very appropriate to make it so that it is the position that grants the power. If someone is clever enough to usurp the position, the former ruler will be stripped of their divine ranks and have no effective recourse. This is unlikely to happen, but still makes courtiers be potential threats.
And it seems to me that an army with hundreds or even thousands of quasideities might prove a challenge to Zakhara's relatively small pantheon and whatever allies they mustered.
Remember how bound the Land of Fate is to the idea of story, though. The challenge is not what matters, just that it is important for the tale that they be evenly matched.
In 2e the Grand Sultan of the Efreet had the capabilities of a greater power with viziers who were on par with lesser powers..
Really? I thought Al-Qadim MC and Secrets of the Lamp mentioned them at much weaker power levels.
I suppose it's ok to give the genie nobles DvR 0, just like the giants, einherjar and valkyries in the Norse Pantheon.
Really? I thought Al-Qadim MC and Secrets of the Lamp mentioned them at much weaker power levels.
It did. They were much less than godlike in those books; powerful, to be certain, but not even slightly divine.
Sildatorak must be thinking of the 1e Manual of the Planes, which did say the Sultan of the Efreet wields the might of a greater power while his advisors are akin to lesser and demipowers.
Gods weren't as powerful in 1e as they were in 2e or are in 3e, so throwing the abilities of a greater deity at an entity didn't mean as much (it did, however, mean the Sultan couldn't be killed either on his home plane or off it). I'd rather the Sultan wasn't quite that powerful, especially since he has to share power with the fire archomentals and Kossuth. The Manual of the Planes said the Lich-Queen of the githyanki had the powers of a demigod, but that was also retconned.
My issue is that the Lords of the Nine and the Abyss weren't necessarily thought of as godlike by Wolfgang Baur (who wrote the aforementioned Al-Qadim genie material) either - if this is different in a given campaign, perhaps the powers of the genie lords should be increased accordingly.
For whatever reason, I like the idea of increasing the power of the race as a whole, rather than of a few individuals.
Really? I thought Al-Qadim MC and Secrets of the Lamp mentioned them at much weaker power levels.
Sure, go and rub it in my face that I don't have the entire collection of AQ stuff. I do know that the sultan of the efreet is mention with the abilities of a greater power someplace in 2e (might be the monster manual or possibly one of the monster stat pages from AQ that came in the boxed sets) since my experience with 1e is limited to playing 2e with a 1e DMG for the first few months I played D&D.
I checked, though, and the Planescape boxed set did say he was a greater power. Then the Inner Planes accessory said "he is clearly not a power, despite our narrator's suggestions to the contrary."
So it's inconsistent.
At any rate, I've seen a system for genie nobles posted on here at some point in the past, can't remember who what where when, but... He basically created a 3 prong system. Genies-Lower Noble Genies (more powerful, but not divine)-then Upper Noble Genies, who had DvR 0 or higher. I like this system.
Anyhow, the quotes:
A DM's Guide to the Planes, page 32: "There are two greater powers here as well. The first is Istishia, the queen of the water elementals... The second in Kalbari al-Durrat al-Amwaj ibn Jari (Padishah of the Marids, the Pearl of the SEa, the Mother of Foarm, Mistress of the Rivers, Savior of Fish, Patron of Waterspouts, and so on... "
Page 28: "The plane is also home to a number of powers, including Akadi (the elemental queen) and Caliph Husam al-Balil ben Hafhat al-Yugayyim..."
Page 29: "Very few powers make their homes here, the most notable are Kabril Ali al-Sara al Zalazil... and Grumbar.
Page 31: "Only two powers live here: Kossuth... and Sultan Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazan..."
Granted, none of these are really conclusive nor can I find any other mention of them specifically as powers, but this seems to at least say that they are deities, power-wise. Whether they are true deities, or really, really powerful near-deities like Primus, who can say?
"There are two greater powers here as well. The first is Istishia, the queen of the water elementals... The second in Kalbari al-Durrat al-Amwaj ibn Jari (Padishah of the Marids, the Pearl of the SEa, the Mother of Foarm, Mistress of the Rivers, Savior of Fish, Patron of Waterspouts, and so on... "
That sounds pretty conclusive to me. It's clear that the Planescape boxed set interpreted them as greater powers - it probably adopted this idea from the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, which said they had the powers of greater deities while on their home planes.
Like I said, The Inner Planes explicitly contradicted this, adopting the interpretation of the Al-Qadim materials (where they were powerful, but not gods).
So there's two different ways of looking at the genie rulers, each as far as I can tell equally valid.
Personally, I'm leaning toward a compromise - they're effectively deities, but not powerful ones, and they have many advisors, vazirs, heirs, and rivals who are nearly as powerful or more. The power of the genies comes from the fact that they're an entire race, while any gods who might challenge them are only individuals or at best pantheons (save the elemental rulers, who of course have the elementals and essentially are the elemental planes).
I think many gods (especially the elemental rulers) are very much beyond stats, but I have no problem with using Deities & Demigods rules for the genies.
. Damn.