Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 25, 2005 15:15:29	Hi there ! First time posting here (I guess). I'm preparing my very first Dark Sun campaign, so feel free to correct me. I was looking for opinion on a relatively unimportant matter : from what I've read on Dark Sun (and I'm far from finished), the Order seems like a very elitistic society of psionicists - that is, in AD&D 2nd ed. And, according to this official stuff, the Order monitors high-level psionicists and, past level 20, contact them - or simply annihilates them. But now, we get 4 psionicist classes, each with its use and views on psionics. How would the Order's Psions treat, say, high-level Psychic Warriors or Wilders ? Would a Soulknife be allowed in the Order if he was neutral ? Or would the Order simply scoff at such an "unpure" use of the Way ? Thanks for your input.
#2 seker Jul 25, 2005 15:33:47	Hi there ! First time posting here (I guess). I'm preparing my very first Dark Sun campaign, so feel free to correct me. I was looking for opinion on a relatively unimportant matter : from what I've read on Dark Sun (and I'm far from finished), the Order seems like a very elitistic society of psionicists - that is, in AD&D 2nd ed. And, according to this official stuff, the Order monitors high-level psionicists and, past level 20, contact them - or simply annihilates them. But now, we get 4 psionicist classes, each with its use and views on psionics. How would the Order's Psions treat, say, high-level Psychic Warriors or Wilders ? Would a Soulknife be allowed in the Order if he was neutral ? Or would the Order simply scoff at such an "unpure" use of the Way ? Thanks for your input. We will probably be going over this exact thing when we do the epic rules on psionics over in the epic bureau..... but my personal opinion is as follows... Membership in the order is likely to become a PrC, that's prerequisite will be the ability to manifest epic powers..... this means a wilder might become a member but a soulknife or a psychic warrior would not...... after all it is the use of powerful psionics that they curtail.... and nothing fits that description better than the epic manifestations of epic powers.
#3 kalthandrix Jul 25, 2005 15:34:39	I would say that only psions and maybe psychic warriors would be allowed into the order- and only as long as they were neutral. The others IMO, would not even be approached for membership due due to the mature of their psionics- in fact a soul knife does not actually manifest powers (at least not the XPH version) and so I do not think they would even be looked at.
#4 seker Jul 25, 2005 15:46:43	I would say that only psions and maybe psychic warriors would be allowed into the order- and only as long as they were neutral. The others IMO, would not even be approached for membership due due to the mature of their psionics- in fact a soul knife does not actually manifest powers (at least not the XPH version) and so I do not think they would even be looked at. interesting idea, but the wilder class really fits the young half elf in dragon kings that the brown elf from the order toasted. Wilders just have limmited number of powers.... they are not limited in the max level of their powers. And epic powers really fits what the Order would be protecting against. By the same token psychic warriors cannot even learn those powers.
#5 kalthandrix Jul 25, 2005 18:32:46	interesting idea, but the wilder class really fits the young half elf in dragon kings that the brown elf from the order toasted. Wilders just have limmited number of powers.... they are not limited in the max level of their powers. And epic powers really fits what the Order would be protecting against. By the same token psychic warriors cannot even learn those powers. I just feel that the Order is about the pure psionics- the disciplined well ordered study of the Will and the Way. Wilders have the feel of exactly what the Order is fighting against- indiscriminate used of psionics by those untutored in the proper methods and without the right moral outlook. Wilders powers are not fueled through the deep introspective study of regular psionics, but instead it is powered through the raw emotions of the untrained- and the results that occur due to the lack of training- the wild surge and psychic enervation that follows from the untutored mind grasping at powers and forced beyond their understanding. Psychic warriors learn their power through discipline of the martial form- fore there was never a master swordsmen just born- the skills that a psychic warrior learn are just like the art of warfare that they take up- learing the correct method of applying their powers to augment their combat abilities.
#6 seker Jul 25, 2005 23:45:30	I just feel that the Order is about the pure psionics- the disciplined well ordered study of the Will and the Way. Wilders have the feel of exactly what the Order is fighting against- indiscriminate used of psionics by those untutored in the proper methods and without the right moral outlook. Wilders powers are not fueled through the deep introspective study of regular psionics, but instead it is powered through the raw emotions of the untrained- and the results that occur due to the lack of training- the wild surge and psychic enervation that follows from the untutored mind grasping at powers and forced beyond their understanding. Psychic warriors learn their power through discipline of the martial form- fore there was never a master swordsmen just born- the skills that a psychic warrior learn are just like the art of warfare that they take up- learing the correct method of applying their powers to augment their combat abilities. Maybe we both are right then... perhaps only psions are accepted in the Order..... wilders that learn epic manifestation would be hunted down as the gravest threat, like the boy I mentioned in the previous post from dragon kings..... but psychic warriors would be used as followers and assistance but never actual members of the Order, as while they are disciplined they lack the knowledge of the pure psionics.
#7 ruhl-than_sage Jul 26, 2005 0:06:04	I have to agree with your stance on that Seker. The Psychic warriors would make great tools, but would never be given full membership into the order. The Wilders, of course are part of what the order is opposed to. Soulknives have no place in the scheme of the order at all. They don't truely practice psionics.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 26, 2005 0:24:10	We will probably be going over this exact thing when we do the epic rules on psionics over in the epic bureau..... but my personal opinion is as follows... Yea, I'm sure we will. Membership in the order is likely to become a PrC, that's prerequisite will be the ability to manifest epic powers..... this means a wilder might become a member but a soulknife or a psychic warrior would not...... after all it is the use of powerful psionics that they curtail.... and nothing fits that description better than the epic manifestations of epic powers. My thoughts on it exactly. Membership in the Order would seem to require Epic Manifesting. As such, I just don't see Psychic Warriors, or other Prestige Classes (like the War Mind) really getting there. Soulknives don't manifest powers at all. But Wilders or Psionics, I could see them in it. I would say that only psions and maybe psychic warriors would be allowed into the order- and only as long as they were neutral. The others IMO, would not even be approached for membership due due to the mature of their psionics- in fact a soul knife does not actually manifest powers (at least not the XPH version) and so I do not think they would even be looked at. Except for the fact you have Psychic Warriors listed as a possibility, and don't mention Wilders, once again, I agree. I personally see WIlders as a possiblity. Sure, there is no formal training, but the Order seems intent on imposing control over psionics -- especially Epic psionics. Wilders could potentially be included -- because while they don't have a strong guideline or set code of training, what they do have is personal power -- their Will is what guides them over the Way, rather than being formally trained in the Way itself. So, in a sense, the Wilders would almost typify exactly what the Order is looking for. However, the WIlders are sort of loose cannons that are borderline psychotics in many ways. So, they could end up hunted by the Order if they get too powerful, and refuse the indotrination into the Order (learn how to control their wild outbursts).
#9 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 26, 2005 8:14:15	My thoughts on it exactly. Membership in the Order would seem to require Epic Manifesting. As such, I just don't see Psychic Warriors, or other Prestige Classes (like the War Mind) really getting there. Soulknives don't manifest powers at all. But Wilders or Psionics, I could see them in it. My thoughts as well. The Order is for psions. Wilders are a threat.
#10 murkaf Jul 26, 2005 8:55:30	To me, the Wilder is the equivalent of the 2nd Edition kit Tribal Psionicist, who was, as a class ability, on the Order's black list. Why? Because they used Psionics in a way the Order did not approve (they had a wild talent even if they had Psionicist levels). Even if the mechanics and the results are extremely different, the main idea is still there: both the Tribal Psionicist and the Wilder learn the use of Psionics by themselves without any regard for (or awareness of) The Way. Note that the Order were on a passive hunt for Tribal Psionicist even before they came near level 21...
#11 flip Jul 26, 2005 9:58:25	My thoughts as well. The Order is for psions. Wilders are a threat. Eh, just so it's a full house, that sounds about right. Though, if it's the case that wilders are persecuted by the Order, they really should have "some" decent defense or way to hide. Note that I am very definately not avocating an order-of-wilders as that goes contrary to flavor of both the class and the setting ... If the Dragons aren't a concern to (most of) the Order because they're not pure psionicists, than Psychic Warriors, Psionic Monks and Soulknives are definately not on the hit list.
#12 Pennarin Jul 26, 2005 12:08:37	If the Dragons aren't a concern to (most of) the Order because they're not pure psionicists, than Psychic Warriors, Psionic Monks and Soulknives are definately not on the hit list. ABs were not on the Order's list because they mixed magic and psionics together - which in the Order's opinion did not make ABs a threat - and the SKs were not a threat because they were considered ancient and integrated elements of the natural order of the world. Soulknives and psionic monks don't even learn powers, so are definately not on the list.
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2005 2:06:58	Eh, just so it's a full house, that sounds about right. Though, if it's the case that wilders are persecuted by the Order, they really should have "some" decent defense or way to hide. Note that I am very definately not avocating an order-of-wilders as that goes contrary to flavor of both the class and the setting ... If the Dragons aren't a concern to (most of) the Order because they're not pure psionicists, than Psychic Warriors, Psionic Monks and Soulknives are definately not on the hit list. I'm agreeing with everyone here, Order = psion. I doubt they'd waste their time hunting down low-level wilders, though, just the ones that could manage higher level (8th or 9th for instance) or epic powers. Psychic warriors would make excellent pawns though. Maybe an Order-psi warrior prestige in addition (probably a 5-level)? Just a thought.
#14 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2005 2:43:20	erudites would make great members of the Order as well.
#15 Pennarin Jul 27, 2005 2:47:39	erudites would make great members of the Order as well. Amen!
#16 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2005 3:02:15	erudites would make great members of the Order as well. Somebody actually uses them? ;)
#17 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 27, 2005 4:06:19	Somebody actually uses them? ;) I do. I like their more wizardlike qualities and development.
#18 Pennarin Jul 27, 2005 4:19:42	Somebody actually uses them? ;) Build a 3,000 years old Champion with 20 levels of Erudite...and it can conceivably have access to all the XPH powers.
#19 zombiegleemax Jul 27, 2005 4:22:49	I do. I like their more wizardlike qualities and development. How do they work out compared to a psion? Just as good, better, or worse?
#20 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 27, 2005 11:29:45	If the Dragons aren't a concern to (most of) the Order because they're not pure psionicists, than Psychic Warriors, Psionic Monks and Soulknives are definately not on the hit list. Agreed. Though, there could be some order members who feel differently, the more fanatical ones.
#21 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 27, 2005 21:21:45	How do they work out compared to a psion? Just as good, better, or worse? They are different, is all. Psionis are a lot closer to a Sorcerer in design, than a Wizard, while the Erudite tends to stray closer to the Wizard than the Sorcerer. I like them, as it is another base psionic class, and for a world that should be psionic-heavy and magic-light (in my opinion), more Psionic manifesting base classes than there are either divine or arcane spellcasting classes is fitting. So I have Psion, Wilder, Erudite and Psychic Warrior for my manifesters; Druid, Cleric & Templar for divine spellcasters; Wizard and Sorcerer for arcane spellcasters. I don't permit spellcasting Rangers, Bards, or Paladins (but do actually have paladins).
#22 zombiegleemax Jul 28, 2005 0:48:34	erudites would make great members of the Order as well. What!? Are we palying everquest here?
#23 Pennarin Jul 28, 2005 1:46:12	What!? Are we palying everquest here? Have you actually read Bruce Cordell's article in Dragon Magazine introducing his new psionic base class, the Erudite?