The magic-users go through intense training to be able to cast spells while riding a horse and being under fire (impressive collection of feats!).
My question is: what makes these units so special? The magic-users that make out the core of the units are level 1-3 and as such each magic-user can at most cast 4-5 spells per day (not counting 0-level spells but allowing for spells for high intelligence). So, to or three magic missiles and a sleep spell or a web spell per day... It seems to me that when such a cavalry unit enganges in combat against other forces they will run out of firepower extremely quickly?
If I were a general, I'd not group my magic-users together in cavalry units but spread them out amongst my infantry to be kept in the back and only brought into action when extra firepower is needed (similar to a bazooka-unit or a mortar-unit in modern infantry formations).
What are your thoughts on this?
:-) Jesper
- Summon Monster I (a bunch of riders and wham! there appears an additional horde of celestial dogs ...)
- Mage Armor (boosts the AC of your comrade by 4)
- Charm Person (I don't want to fight against this army, officer...)
- Cause Fear (damn, I have to flee this army!)
Even the cantrips are IMHO impressing for the usage in army fights ...
My question is: what makes these units so special? The magic-users that make out the core of the units are level 1-3 and as such each magic-user can at most cast 4-5 spells per day (not counting 0-level spells but allowing for spells for high intelligence). So, to or three magic missiles and a sleep spell or a web spell per day... It seems to me that when such a cavalry unit enganges in combat against other forces they will run out of firepower extremely quickly?
First of all, these are elite units, where the basic soldier is a MU3.
One would also think that, being so highly specialized, they'd also be Specialist Wizards (in any ruleset other than OD&D).
AD&D-wise, they'd also be Militant Wizards, with expanded weapon choices (probably archers or lancers).
So they'd mostly act as a sort of light cavalry or mounted archers, plus the ability to throw two or three volleys of spells -- enough to impair or route a few standard units (coordinated sleep spells could take out even an elite unit).
The lack of armor could probably be offset by spells (AD&D-wise, the Armor spell is perfect for a low-level mage, as it gives long-lasting protection).
In more magic-heavy campaigns, you could also consider that, as Alphatian Boltmens are superior due to their wands of lightning and not due to the spells (they probably pack mostly protective spells), so also these mounted wizard units could use wands (from wands of magic missiles to wands of fireball, depending on the campaign magic level).
I can see that they can be used in a rush attack; charging in, breaking enemy ranks with sleep spells etc., then withdrawing as the 'real' cavalry charges in?
Hmm... going to have to think this over some more. With the relatively low cost of producing wands and scrolls in 3E such units might have a role to play after all...
:-) Jesper
As for Basic DnD - how many armies would do well against a force throwing multiple sleep spells?
If I am allowed to raise DnD3.5 here - how about them all as Warmages? - This way they would pack quite a significant punch...
And give them either/both Dual Wand Wielder and/or Reckless Wand Wielder feats, they use the charges up quicker but do increase firepower or effect.
Regards,
Gary
In particular, the Order of the Spell, it seems, would be a very good one to make into a Prc. Give them some abilities to better cast spells while mounted (either a bonus to Concentration checks or bonuses to hit), improve their AC while riding/Concentration checks against disruption by enemy fire- basically some mounted combat feats and abilities that would maximize their spellcasting on horseback in much the same way many of the existing "mounted Prcs" give bonuses to warriors.
I'll have some more specifics later today (it's kind of late right now), as I've given the idea some thought...
On Glantri's mage cavalry, I don't see them as being quite as elite as the Order of the Spell, but having a high number of spellcasters simply due to the role of mages in Glantri (as the elite, upper crust). In much the same way, for example, the British army in the 18th and 19th centuries consisted of officers who were of high birth and social standing, and did not gain their offices necessarily through merit, so too the Glantrian army. Many of the mages in the army would be low level dilettantes, largely disinterested in the army life except where it might gain them prestige and additional social standing (if they survive). The best officers would probably be wizard/fighters of some degree, though not necessarily all.
I did a writeup of an NPC cavalry officer in the GAG (Grand Army of Glantri) some time ago- the father of Vincienzo di Randazzi, though I don't think I ever posted it (don't find it on the Vaults or the GPD site). I'll have to do that, but I had him as something like a Ftr3/Wiz3 and despite only having access to low level spells, it seemed to me that (with proper spell choice) they could make him a very capable military figure- Mage Armor and Buff Spells for combat (Bear's Strength, etc- though the reduced 3.5 duration makes them a bit less useful than in 3.0), Clairaudience/Clairvoyance would be useful for scouting out the enemy prior to engagement, Fog Cloud and similar spells could help a retreat or sow confusion among an enemy (who can be pelted from afar with arrow and spell fire), Mount provides a steed for even a poor officer (and for those who fear being targeted by the enemy as an officer- a tactic used often by the British Army, because only officers could afford horses- the spell can be dismissed at will.)
Since most armies in Mystara still rely on infantry, these magic-using cavalry could be very effective using hit-and-run tactics. Remember 500 magic missiles will very quickly take out a large number of 1st level troops. Sleep spells would be devastating too.
Since most armies in Mystara still rely on infantry, these magic-using cavalry could be very effective using hit-and-run tactics. Remember 500 magic missiles will very quickly take out a large number of 1st level troops. Sleep spells would be devastating too.
Until they come across a unit of rangers with hold animal or if your gm would allow you to develop it hold animal, mass. I suppose you develop other battlefield magic such as deploy caltrops or instant pits, etc. :D
Regards,
Gary
Hmm... I still see these units as rather strange. They would have to sacrifice firepower to get magic spell protection, which IMO makes them even less potent.
This depends on the magic used. Specifically, the Armor spell of AD&D lasted more than a day, IIRC. This would make the mage-troops able to use all their magic to build up their firepower.
Also, acting as mounted archers they could avoid melee.
BTW, if you are specifically interested in 3e, these troops might be composed of multiclassed characters (first level fighters, second level wizard) making them standard light cavalry units with additional magic firepower.
Still, magic units are mostly low-powered units with the ability to use a one shot, but very effective attack. Which makes them able to take out a tow or three enemy units, before having to flee the battle. Not a big advantage, but an advantage none the less.
Until they come across a unit of rangers with hold animal or if your gm would allow you to develop it hold animal, mass. I suppose you develop other battlefield magic such as deploy caltrops or instant pits, etc. :D
Regards,
Gary
That's the fun part. Warfare and your armies evolve as you try to exploit your enemies' weaknesses while minimizing your own. Combined arms theory comes into the picture in order to increase your forces' flexiblity and maximize effectiveness. When you throw magic into the mix, there are many possiblities, and like technology today, you are only limited by the amount of money (and in 3.5E, XP) you can spend.
That's the fun part. Warfare and your armies evolve as you try to exploit your enemies' weaknesses while minimizing your own. Combined arms theory comes into the picture in order to increase your forces' flexiblity and maximize effectiveness. When you throw magic into the mix, there are many possiblities, and like technology today, you are only limited by the amount of money (and in 3.5E, XP) you can spend.
I completely agree, in a previous life (before role playing took completely over) I used to play a lot of 1/300th microtank wargaming WWII mainly but some modern as well.
We now return to our normal programmes... :D
Regards,
Gary
1) Low-level characters (and hence armies of 3rd level MU) are much more common in OD&D than AD&D, 3E or 3.5E. IMO, an army of 3rd level wizards, or even just a unit of 200 of them, would be exceptionally rare - unless we say to h*** with 3E level/society descriptions and decide that lowlevel characters are common - at least common enough to make elite units - in Mystara 3E.
2) If these units are equipped with wands, potions and scrolls - who are supplying all of the xp? AFAI recall, elven bows, swords, cloaks and boots are all made by the Tree of Life Keepers and dwarves have their own Forges of Power to produce goodies for troops, but what about the human armies? The troops are (usually) not of a high enough level to make magic items, which means that someone higher up in the comand structure will have to sacrifice the xp - or use some unholy ritual to drain it from others!
Makes you wonder just what ghastly power is enchanted into the items used by units under the command of Prince Brannart McGregor or Prince Morphail :evillaugh :-) Jesper
1) I ignore the 3.5E level/society descriptions because they don't "work" with the type of world Mystara is. If we followed them too closely you would have a hardtime justifying Glantri or Alphatia (1000 36th level wizards?)
2) For the purposes of a national army, if the government can afford to train low-level wizards to fill their ranks, then it should be allowed. I'm not familiar with mecenary pricing in 3.5E, but I have to believe a 3rd level wizard is far more costly than a 3rd level fighter... When you are dealing with hiring large numbers of wizard mercenaries for a private army, as a DM, I wouldn't probably allow it.
3)State-sponsered armories could produce some magic items, but anyone working there would have to be well conpensated for the XP cost. In our campaign (which has a lot of War Machine in it), we tend to use mundane equipment that can add bonuses (field fortifications, field artillery) on the cheap rather than heavy magic which comes at a premium. Not to say magic doesn't have a role (our naval ships are captained by spellcasters), but it is more of special ops and commando work, not grunt work, best left to a regular roleplay session.
This depends on the magic used. Specifically, the Armor spell of AD&D lasted more than a day, IIRC. This would make the mage-troops able to use all their magic to build up their firepower.
Mage Armor in 3E lasts 1 hour/level, which should last for quite a bit. It would be very helpful to bring some scrolls, which could be used to touch some of these up (after a suitable withdrawal, of course.
Still, magic units are mostly low-powered units with the ability to use a one shot, but very effective attack. Which makes them able to take out a tow or three enemy units, before having to flee the battle. Not a big advantage, but an advantage none the less.
Definitely, especially considering that opposing troops are most likely similarly low-levels. A few sleeps, burning hands, some true strikes cast on archers (to take down opposing officers), etc., could make a big impact.
1) Low-level characters (and hence armies of 3rd level MU) are much more common in OD&D than AD&D, 3E or 3.5E. IMO, an army of 3rd level wizards, or even just a unit of 200 of them, would be exceptionally rare - unless we say to h*** with 3E level/society descriptions and decide that lowlevel characters are common - at least common enough to make elite units - in Mystara 3E.
Like Traianus, I think at least certain nations (Glantri, Alphatia) would not be served by the general guidelines in the DMG on population, etc. They'd have to use a different sort of level/society description. I think Halruaa in the FR also does something similar- 1/3 of the population (app. 557,000) has some magical skill (cantrips or something similar)- with a little more than 10% total of its population "understanding the intricacies of casting spells" (which amounts to about 170,000 people). The vast majority would be 1st/2nd level at the most, I'd say, but its an example that breaks the mold.
(As an aside, I'm not exactly positive if I'm calculating the figures right, but it looks like Halruaa is around 195,000 sq. miles, and the PWAs list post-WotI Glantri at about 117,000 sq. miles, with a population of 600,000- about 1/3 that of Halruaa. Not really a point, but just some figures for comparison, I guess).
2) If these units are equipped with wands, potions and scrolls - who are supplying all of the xp? AFAI recall, elven bows, swords, cloaks and boots are all made by the Tree of Life Keepers and dwarves have their own Forges of Power to produce goodies for troops, but what about the human armies? The troops are (usually) not of a high enough level to make magic items, which means that someone higher up in the comand structure will have to sacrifice the xp - or use some unholy ritual to drain it from others!
I don't imagine the low-level troops really have that much in terms of magical firepower- the breakdown of the armies in Gaz3 doesn't mention anything, and so there wouldn't seem to be enough to make a difference in War Machine terms (what do they need in WM- 10%, I think?).
On that note, though, even 1st level mages can make scribe their own scrolls, which would be of major use in war. Brew Potion, another really useful one, is a 3rd level, and a bit more costly than scrolls, so I'd imagine those troops that could would hoard them for themselves (I could see a special position of "war apothecary" or something consisting of non-field troops who supplied small batches of potions for some of the army, though). As for where the xp came from, I don't know. Maybe they simply share in the xp from a successful campaign, even if they weren't active participants?
That is kind of a scary thought... as is the thought of what Brannart and Morphail do with captured troops. There are some rituals in the Book of Vile Darkness that deal with gaining xp for Dark Crafting after sacrificing others...
(And of course, there's the psychological edge as well. Against an opponent who's ever faced Glantrians before, the knowledge that half your left wing might suddenly get KOed has got to make an enemy more cautious. Which is a good quarter of the battle won.)
2) For the purposes of a national army, if the government can afford to train low-level wizards to fill their ranks, then it should be allowed. I'm not familiar with mecenary pricing in 3.5E, but I have to believe a 3rd level wizard is far more costly than a 3rd level fighter... When you are dealing with hiring large numbers of wizard mercenaries for a private army, as a DM, I wouldn't probably allow it.
I'd say Glantri (and Alphatia to a lesser extent) is a bit of an anomaly in this regards, as given the status of wizards in Glantrian society, they already come pre-trained, and are done so outside of the government system. Since anyone with the ability is apprenticed at an early age to the school system in Glantri, it is from these ranks that the mages in the army are drawn- the GAG wouldn't, it seems to me, train people who sign on. Once in the army, they might have access to training from higher level mages in the army itself, though I'd say that's pretty rare. Hence, why so many low-level mages in the army.
In fact, I could almost see an argument for the number of these mages in the army being a result of people who were unable to afford the higher costs of more in-depth wizardly training at the schools and/or apprenticeships (ie, they get the basic low-level training, but because they can't afford anything more, they join the army where due to their wizardly status they can immediately be assigned higher ranking- and better paying- positions in the army than could mundaners. If they manage to survive their assignments, then they could end up profiting very well from it, not to mention the additional status afforded them in Glantrian society as wizardly veterans). Thus, the GAG becomes an alternative choice for those who are magically gifted, but of non-noble (and monied) backgrounds.
The possibility of gaining a degree of tutelage for free from other wizardly officers, or of being able to trade knowledge with other peers, not to mention the likelihood of (as higher ranking privileged officers) getting the best "loot", would be good reasons for wizards in Glantri to pursue the "military option" as well.
I'm not sure how this would be in other places (outside of Glantri and Alphatia), but I'd imagine it would follow similar precepts. Thyatis, in particular, would probably have the majority of its wizardly troops following the same sort of system, though Thyatian military ranks are arguably attained more by merit than privilege (not entirely- as the Gaz points out, there is still a lot of rank buying- but I'd say more than either of the magocracies). Thyatis has its own wizardly units, but given the nature of the Thyatian military, I'd say they would have a much better chance at "on the job" training than the Alphatians/Glantrians- ie, they would probably support wizardly tutelage as part of the military training outside of combat, whereas Alphatians and Glantrians don't devote the resources to that in the military, instead focusing on their schools and apprenticeships in the civilian world. To that extent, I'd say the Thyatian wizards are probably better trained soldiers and war spellcasters, despite having lower numbers of them.
All this talk, btw, has me thinking of how much I enjoyed the War Machine rules, and the "special" War Machine rules that were included in Gaz12: The Golden Khan of Ethengar. Has anyone else ever come up with special tactics like those in Gaz12 to represent the methods of engagement that are specific to the individual nations of the Known World (ie, something for Glantri that would give them a magical bonus or something, etc.).
If not, maybe we could start a thread for that- to individualize the nations of the Known World and elaborate on their tactics.
As for where the xp came from, I don't know. Maybe they simply share in the xp from a successful campaign, even if they weren't active participants?
They should be entitled to some kind of xp amount. Even though it isn't combat experience, it is still an experience to be exposed to the military life and have hands-on practice creating scrolls and/or potions. If it doesn't work in this or a similar manner than how else can an expert, or perhaps even an adept, gain levels?
Thyatis has its own wizardly units, but given the nature of the Thyatian military, I'd say they would have a much better chance at "on the job" training than the Alphatians/Glantrians- ie, they would probably support wizardly tutelage as part of the military training outside of combat, whereas Alphatians and Glantrians don't devote the resources to that in the military, instead focusing on their schools and apprenticeships in the civilian world. To that extent, I'd say the Thyatian wizards are probably better trained soldiers and war spellcasters, despite having lower numbers of them.
I agree. It's in the nationalistic character of Thyatis to train their military efficiently, and to be effective.
However, do you think Glantri or Alphatia would have any type of policy that would accept a student of magic into the school system in exchange for a term of service in the military? This would provide cheap magic-users for military use.
However, do you think Glantri or Alphatia would have any type of policy that would accept a student of magic into the school system in exchange for a term of service in the military? This would provide cheap magic-users for military use.
I could see that, in fact I could even see their recruiters being underhanded and promising free tutelage for anyone who joins the military, and not following through on it; it's not like there's a better business bureau to complain to. ("Anyone can be a wizard! Join the Grand Army of Glantri and see for yourself!")
In fact, I could almost see an argument for the number of these mages in the army being a result of people who were unable to afford the higher costs of more in-depth wizardly training at the schools and/or apprenticeships (ie, they get the basic low-level training, but because they can't afford anything more, they join the army where due to their wizardly status they can immediately be assigned higher ranking- and better paying- positions in the army than could mundaners. If they manage to survive their assignments, then they could end up profiting very well from it, not to mention the additional status afforded them in Glantrian society as wizardly veterans). Thus, the GAG becomes an alternative choice for those who are magically gifted, but of non-noble (and monied) backgrounds.
The possibility of gaining a degree of tutelage for free from other wizardly officers, or of being able to trade knowledge with other peers, not to mention the likelihood of (as higher ranking privileged officers) getting the best "loot", would be good reasons for wizards in Glantri to pursue the "military option" as well.
Excellent idea! I am going to have to incorporate that into my campaign!
All this talk, btw, has me thinking of how much I enjoyed the War Machine rules, and the "special" War Machine rules that were included in Gaz12: The Golden Khan of Ethengar. Has anyone else ever come up with special tactics like those in Gaz12 to represent the methods of engagement that are specific to the individual nations of the Known World (ie, something for Glantri that would give them a magical bonus or something, etc.).
If not, maybe we could start a thread for that- to individualize the nations of the Known World and elaborate on their tactics.
Perhaps you can find some inspiration in this thread I started once but never quite finished. It is on the military doctrines and tactics of the Known World:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=270554
:-) Jesper
2) If these units are equipped with wands, potions and scrolls - who are supplying all of the xp?
Is that a 3E or 3.5 rule? I always thought you recieved XP for creating a magic item.
Groups of mages are very powerfull; I ran an all-mage campaign once, and even at low levels they destroyed dungeons in ways that only an all-fighter or all-cleric group could have. I like the examples of 500 magic missiles; instant hit, no save throw, and will kill almost all 0-level humans (real infantry is usually a farmer given a sword and shield by his liege lord). Even better would be 500 mages with sleep; multiple targets affected.
Almost as good: 500 1st level clerics with the AD&D spell "command"; no save for 0 level characters, and they must do the one-word command the cleric gives for one minute, like "surrender" "sleep" "undress" "sit" "flee" "disarm" "drink", all of which are usefull on the battlefield ("drink" only if you throw them all unmarked vials of poison first).
Requirements:
Feats- Mounted Combat, Combat Casting
Skills- Ride 4 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks
Base Attack Bonus- +3
Spells- Arcane Caster level 3
Hd: d6 (possibly d8)
Skill Points/Level: 2 + Int Bonus
Skills: Concentration, Craft (any), Handle Animal, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Profession (any), Ride, Spellcraft, Spot.
Base Attack Bonus: As Wizard or Rogue/Cleric
Fortitude Save: Poor
Reflex Save: Poor or Good
Will Save: Good
Spellcasting: +1 level of spellcasting class for 8 or 7 levels (depending on how combat oriented the abilities- see above- are).
Suggested Abilities and possible levels:
- Bonus to Concentration checks made while Riding (several over a course of several levels)
- Share spells with Mount
- Cast Touch spells through Mount
- Take 10 on Concentration checks while Riding, even under adverse circumstances (4th or 5th level)
- Bonus Feats: Choose from list that includes Mounted Combat feats and possibly one or two other combat oriented feats.
- 1/day use Ride check in place of attack roll for ranged touch spells (such as rays), or (and I'll need to check the math here, as offhand it seems it may be too powerful) as the save DC for spell cast.
That's just a few things I have been thinking about over the past couple of days. A lot of it depends on whether they are a more militant type of class (as, IIRC, the Gaz suggests- I haven't checked it yet), or just "Wizards-On-Wheels"- in which case they should get more magical sorts of abilities).
Base Attack Bonus: As Wizard or Rogue/Cleric
I would keep the BAB the same as for the wizard but give them a bonus to attack (= class level - maybe too good) whilst mounted.
or
Arcane Insightful Attack (Ex) - A member of the order may substitute his Int modifier instead of his Dex modifier when making a ranged attack with a spell or magical device such as a wand. This does not apply to magical ranged weapons such as bows, slings, etc.
Regards,
Gary
I would keep the BAB the same as for the wizard but give them a bonus to attack (= class level - maybe too good) whilst mounted.
I'd thought of that idea initially, but for some reason discarded it. Now that you mention it again, though, I think your solution is probably a good idea. I don't think I'd have it be equal to class level, maybe every other, or every third, though.
Arcane Insightful Attack (Ex) - A member of the order may substitute his Int modifier instead of his Dex modifier when making a ranged attack with a spell or magical device such as a wand. This does not apply to magical ranged weapons such as bows, slings, etc.
That's an interesting idea. Maybe it could be a feat?
Arcane Insightful Attack (Ex) - A member of the order may substitute his Int modifier instead of his Dex modifier when making a ranged attack with a spell or magical device such as a wand. This does not apply to magical ranged weapons such as bows, slings, etc.
That's an interesting idea. Maybe it could be a feat?
Personally, I'd keep it a distinctive aspect of the PC.
Is that a 3E or 3.5 rule? I always thought you recieved XP for creating a magic item.
Ya, in 3.x the creation of magical items costs the crafter an amount of xp. It is veiwed as the creator putting some of his essence into the magical item, as well as a game balancing function ;) .
Arcane Insightful Attack (Ex) - A member of the order may substitute his Int modifier instead of his Dex modifier when making a ranged attack with a spell or magical device such as a wand. This does not apply to magical ranged weapons such as bows, slings, etc.
Personally, I'd keep it a distinctive aspect of the PC.
Right now, I'm thinking something along the lines of the Duelist's Canny Defense ability:
Arcane Insightful Attack (Ex): An Order of the Spell Skirmisher may add 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per Order of the Spell class level to attack rolls made with spells or magical devices (such as wands). Thus a 3rd level Order of the Spell Skirmisher with an Intelligence of 15 (+2 bonus) could add +2 to his attack roll. This bonus only applies while mounted.
That way, it's something that improves with level (thus helping to prevent "cherry picking" of the class by taking only a couple of levels), but not so much that it's overpowering.
I think I've got enough to work up a more complete PrC here, and I'll post it for everyone to take a look at and give some more opinions.