Free your mind, let fade this corporeal shell.
Hit Die: d4
Requirements:
To qualify to become The Faded, a character must fulfill the following criteria:
Skills: Concentration 10 ranks, Knowledge Psionics 10 ranks, Knowledge Planes 10 ranks
Feats: Body Fuel
Powers: Psionic Dominate, Control Body, Telekinetic Force
Class Skills:
The Faded's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Autohypnosis (wis), Bluff (cha), Concentration (con), Disguise (cha), Knowledge (psionics) (int), Knowledge (planes) (int), Psicraft (int), Sense Motive (wis)
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
In the future- I might be best if you just posted your newer version of the PrC to your old post or just go in and edit you old post to reflect the new information. This is so people can read back on comments they made before and see how the PrC has changed without having to flip between multiple screens. Just a friendly suggestion
Reading though this version- I like the names of the abilities much better and the abilities themselves I think work better too.
I do not have alot of time right now to comment further, but I will read it over again and give you some more feedback. :D
In the future- I might be best if you just posted your newer version of the PrC to your old post or just go in and edit you old post to reflect the new information. This is so people can read back on comments they made before and see how the PrC has changed without having to flip between multiple screens. Just a friendly suggestion
The disadvantage, of course, being that earlier comments make no sense whatsoever, and that history is overwritten .....
The disadvantage, of course, being that earlier comments make no sense whatsoever, and that history is overwritten .....
I am not saying that the old material 'must' be written over- making a new post at the end of the thread with the new material is just as easy.
Much cleaner and more concise than the old version. I'm still sort of against the single point strength loss, but I'll live. Good job!
I think you should note the maximum size of object that can be affected by the ability It's all in your mind. Maybe medium sized or smaller (as in no larger than a man).
Good work
, sorry I couldn't be more helpful before.:D , you have improved upon the idea greatly. I think the Fluff is very good at this point. Your change on the Quick thinking ability also appeals to me.
Thanks! Everyone's input helped a lot. Still looking for more feed back to tweak it if you have any thoughts.
I'm confused about why the Faded doesn't get a manifester level at 1st level.
Do you think that it might make more sense to have the lost manifester levels at 5 and 10? There really isn't any point to having the lost manifester level at first anymore, you're right about that, because there's no longer any beneficial ability granted in the first level. I could theoretically make it second level, but I think that would look weird. Since the +1 to DCs and caster level checks isn't really overpowering, probably the first time the class gets a really good ability is fifth level when you the character can dodge pretty much any attack he wants to once a day. It would make more sense, I think, logistically to lose a manifester level there than first, but what do you think?
Also, I think gaining a cumluative +3 bonus to the DC of all saves is a little powerful, but the loss of two manifester levels kind of balances that out.
I was a little dubious of this change myself, but part of the increase in DC modifier and the addition of caster level checks is because I dropped the increased saving throws from the original class. I also changed the pre-reqs, you may have noticed, so that the only required feat is body fuel. Of course to get body fuel you also need to get overchannel and talented. Over all, even though they are useful (although not body fuel itself, imo, I think that one is actually pretty worthless unless you are just desperate for pps) I don't think that they are nearly as useful as the feats I had required before, psionic body and greater psionic endowment. Honestly, if I didn't think it would just be too much I'd still require greater psionic endowment, I think that feat and (ugh) body fuel best represent the fluff of the class.
Anyone can feel free to play test this and let me know if the modifiers are just too much. It's unlikely I'll actually get to use this class unless it receives overwhelming approval from the message boards or is included in the PrC Appendix Volume 2, my DM is always very wary of home brew material.
I think you should note the maximum size of object that can be affected by the ability It's all in your mind. Maybe medium sized or smaller (as in no larger than a man).
Yeah, didn't so much think about the potential for abuse there, thanks!
An incorporeal creature or character can not touch or use any physical force on a corporeal creature. Why not have an ability to be able to act on physical objects instead or in addition to turning them incorporeal. I know you have the telekenetic possibility though psionics but that seams kind of a waste to use a power an expend points for shutting a door....
so why not give them the abillity to move up to a wieght or enough force to do simple things like open and shut doors (that are not stuck or otherwise immoble) as well as opening containers(that are not locked), opening a lock from inside the lock maybe. They should bot have enough force to do and damage directly. Perhaps only able to move or pick up 5 or 10 pounds (as if they had a STR score of 1: 3lbs or less = light, 4-6lb = medium, 7-10lb = heavy pg 162 PHB), that should be plenty for opening and closing things and would also enable them to do some other minor things with out using up thier power points for something that they whould have been able to do if they didn't take this PrC's.
My only poblem with this PrC is that you give up being able to enter act with the physical world and you really don't get much for it. I know it doesn't seam like much but it really is there are tons of things you can't do, but you only get a 50% miss chance and magic, psionics and magic iteams can still hurt you... feels like you need something to at least off set the fact that you can't normanlly interact with the world or maybe atleast some expanded powers like automaticly getting the feat to learn other areas of of psionics (don't have the ExPsHB with me to give you the feat name).
The things you get are fine while still in physical form but not once you have gone to the 10th level.
Also in the ability Ascension: is the attack score based on dex why not int? you don't have a dex you have no physical body to have a dex....
just my thoughts...
The reason attacks are modified by dexterity is because the incorporeal template negates the strength score. There is nothing inherent to being incoporeal that makes it so you no longer have dexterity or constitution. A lot of people think that incorporeal creatures don't have a constitution score, but I suspect this is due in large part to the fact that the incorporeal creatures that most people deal with are undead. I could have created a different kind of template which did remove all physical ability scores, but I think that would have been seriously unbalanced.
I did actually consider making attacks modified by intelligence, but to do that I would have had to have added another special ability, and frankly for someone who is taking this class it's just not likely that the attack modifiers are going to be all that important. If attack rolls are ever made for a psion it's usually a ranged touch attack.
I wasn't actually thinking of the faded character opening or closing doors for themselves but rather for other reasons. They would I hope still be part of a party I mean unless you are playing a solo game they are still part of a group. There is always the trickster aspect of being able to interact with the world while being incorporeal.
I guess what bugs me is it seams like you gain very little if truly anything by taking this PrC. It’s not bad but why would i take it?
Tell me if I’m wrong I don’t have my XPHB with me but…..
With this PrC you have to burn 3 feats spend 30 skill points and have 3 specific powers out of you limited powers known from I believe two different disciplines which means you need to burn a feat to gain access to a second disciplines (expanded knowledge I believe is the feat) 4 feats total just to get in.
What you gain..
You gain a +3 to DC or over coming power resistance over 10 levels.
You gain your INT mod as a bonus to AC (not that much use after 10th level)
You gain the possibility twice per day to nullify a physical attack.
You gain the ability to change a number of items equal to your INT mod incorporeal.
I think that’s about if for what you gain oh yea you can fly at your normal movement rate but what’s the point. You may also gain on the +2 will save at level 1 (by one point unless you start the class a level after you gained a point to your will save).
Now for what you lose….
The Psion has class feats if I remember correctly.
You lose what’s left of them (you had to burn at least 4 feats in the first place and one of those won’t matter in 10 levels either.)
You lose two manifester levels (No where does it state that the levels of this PrC count towards your manifester level for purposes of DC, powers, PSPs, power levels, power resistance or anything else, so you only gain them when you get the +1 manifester level there is precedence for this ruling).
You lose two manifester levels worth of DC.
You lose two manifester levels worth of powers known.
You lose two manifester levels worth of PSPs.
You lose two levels worth of reflex saves
You lose two levels worth of fort saves
You lose level worth of BAB.
You lose all your possessions except the few you turn incorporeal.
You lose the ability to interact with the world. Even the simple things turning a page of an ancient tome of the way or shut and bar a door, I know why do you care to shut a door, to trap your enemies in a prison you made for them so you can toy with them at your leisure. Besides running away all the time though the floor/ground is going to get old fast and you can’t see while in solid objects.
You lose the ability to have wealth. (Where would you put it… which pocket? Wait that’s right you don’t have pockets) so no buying ghost touched stuff for yourself.
So with all this in mind is it worth it when you really don’t gain anything in the way or your will.
I hope all this has some positive impact on this PrC.
Yes, you lose two levels worth of power points and powers, levels have nothing do with save DCs. The modifiers make up the caster level check +1 by the end, and the fact that you are required to have over channel as a prereq for Body Fuel means you can also make up augmentation and what not for those two levels as well. There is, except for the cerebremancer, to the best of my knowledge, no such thing as a psionic PrC that is has full manifester progression, and even if there was, the fact that the incoporeal subtype has been assigned a +2 level adjustment for use with player characters indicates to me that it warrants a loss of manifester levels.
Most DMs will give you two options for achieving the cross-discipline pre-reqs, you can take the feat expanded knowlegde, or, the RAW allow for the research of powers already in existence, which means you could expend time and a little bit of xp to research a cross discipline power and acquire it that way.
As for the skills, when I play a psion the only one of those skill sets that might not be maxed out by the time it's possible to take this PrC is knowledge planes. Any psion that hasn't maxed concentration and knowledge psioncs (which is necessary later at epic levels, and we all know how conducive DS is to epic play) isn't thinking straight.
The ability to nullify an attack is more powerful, I think, than it seems at first glance. I was actually going to grant more uses of it, but you have to consider, except for attacks that go directly for the mind (not ray attacks) and force affects, the character gets to just ignore any attack, whether by weapon, magic, psionics, or some other medium, twice per day. Disintegration ray coming your way? Who cares that I lost a point or two off my fort save, it's gonna miss me anyway. Meteorswarm you say? Not from where I'm phased. Now granted, this would be a little more useful if you could choose to use it after having determined whether or not it would have hit you anyway once you've achieved incorporeality, but since it most logically uses the same mechanic, it's just that twice per day The Faded controls it, I just couldn't see that making any sense.
Also, I don't know what the final form is going to be, but I was partially inspired to finally write an alternative to the Psion Uncarnate after I read the proposal for the Mind Lord PrC. I imagine that some form of that will make into Athas.org epic play, and will likely still involve incorporeality. Since I don't really plan on having any of my characters working with both magic and psionics, I'm very interested in epic advancement other than Dragon and Avanagion.
On the other hand, that's kind of exactly what immediate actions are for, and given that this ability is an immediate action and the precedent for The Faded's ability to analyze a combat situation established by Quick Thinking...bottom line is, does anyone think it would break the ability if incorporeal characters could choose to use it after the miss chance has already been rolled?
Just kidding. But seriously, well done. Nice flavour and all. May I offer a grammar/spelling/conventions edit for the final version?
SS did indeed benchmark incorporeal as a +2 LA. However, transformational PrCs tend to follow slightly different rules. The PU is grossly underpowered. The Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm) gains a +5 LA template with SUPERB ability mods for 2 CL, Elemental Savants the elemental type for 2 CL. The question thus becomes: are we balancing this with respect to the core 4 (MM, PHB, DMG, XPH), or are we balancing this in relation to the current splatbook-pumped state of the game? Given the current incarnation of the PrC, I'd go ahead and have them lose only 1 ML; the one at 10th in exchange for the final transformation.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this observation/recommendation?
For anyone that has an opinion on the matter, which do you think would be better?
A) The class ability/manifester level progression as shown now.
B) Same abilities as shown now but only minus one manifester level at tenth level, rather than two at fifth and tenth.
C) Changing Overwhelming Will to 4th and 8th (so only +2 over ten levels) and only minus one manifester level at tenth.
Thanks!
