Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2005 4:41:13	Having recently re-read the old Veiled Alliance and DS2 books (among other things), a couple of things came to mind. Before I start, though, I'll give a break down on some relevent information to make things easier to discuss. City-States of the Tablelands City-State...Current Ruler (FY 12)...AL.....Population (VA)...Population (DS2) Balic...........Merchant Lords..........LN........27,500..................28,000 Celik...........Merchant Lord.............N...........--......................3500? Draj............Azetuk......................LE.......15,000..................15,000 Eldaarich,,,,,Daskinor....................CE...........--....................21,000 Gulg...........Lalai-Puy...................LE.........8.500..................12,000 Kurn...........Oronis.......................LG...........--....................18,000 Nibenay......Nibenay.....................LE........24,000.................25,000 Raam.........Anarchy......................CE........40,000................40,000 Saragar......The Mindlords..............LE...........--....................30.000 Tyr............Oligarchic Counsel.........N.........12,000................15,000 Urik...........Hamanu......................LE.........32,000................30,000 In all cases, AL stands for the effective alignment of the city's government.
#2 murkaf Jul 29, 2005 6:42:29	Third, Gulg! Over the course of 10 years, iit gained another 50% of its original population. WTF!?? I told them not to run the census during the Red Moon Hunt... Maybe the extermination of the Khirre resulted in less mortality. But there was no way the people of Gulg would listen to anything about birth control. Maybe it became fashinable for the forest tribes to move to the big city... (How do you say "exode rural" in english?)
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2005 7:50:39	I told them not to run the census during the Red Moon Hunt... Maybe the extermination of the Khirre resulted in less mortality. But there was no way the people of Gulg would listen to anything about birth control. Maybe it became fashinable for the forest tribes to move to the big city... (How do you say "exode rural" in english?) Actually, I was wondering there for a second is the spirit of Abalach-Re didn't possess the entire population for one last blast of a party before fading into the Grey. And from there... ;) Seriously, though, the city-states were describing being constantly on the brink of starvation, bearly producing enough food to feed their citizens, in DS1. The kind of population increase we're talking about, or even the smaller increase in Tyr, would essentially break the balance, leading to mass starvation, riots, crackdowns, etc. etc. bloody etc.
#4 flip Jul 29, 2005 8:56:13	Seriously, though, the city-states were describing being constantly on the brink of starvation, bearly producing enough food to feed their citizens, in DS1. The kind of population increase we're talking about, or even the smaller increase in Tyr, would essentially break the balance, leading to mass starvation, riots, crackdowns, etc. etc. bloody etc. Well, in some respects, that one of those little inconsistant changes between DS1 and DS2. Personally, I like the flavor of DS1 much better. Much, much mroe bleak. A world in atrophy because the people in power havn't changed in two thousand years, and the sheer misery caused by their efforts to hold on to that power. Not that the dynamic world isn't interesting to play in as well, but ... FY 312: (as presented in Dragon/Dungeon) Balic: Ruled by Andy (back from the black) Raam: Ruled by Dregoth Tyr: Still kinking and free Urik: ruled by Hamanu Draj: Atzutek has become a true sorcerer-king Gulg: They still love the Oba. Nibenay: Still named after it's ruler Kurn and Eldaarich: Unmentioned, I belive.
#5 dracochapel Jul 29, 2005 9:07:04	I think its most likely that the numbers represent the populations of the cities, not including itinerants like elves and slaves, and not including the outlying farms and client villages. Otherwise how can Urik of 30000 afford to lose a legion of 5000 (and not only lose it but not even care, when they later destroy the Tyr army)? And i really like the 300th FY idea that in the end the good guys didnt win, that nothing changed, and that as far as the people of 300FY are concerned, its the same as it has been forever. Its Athas, the bad guys have won, all that is left is fighting over the spoils of their 'success'.
#6 ruhl-than_sage Jul 29, 2005 9:24:54	Several things to consider: Tyr skipped several of the dragon's levies (I think, I can't remember how many), thats 1,000 people right there, each time. Birth rates Death rates Weather Fluxuations (whether it was a good year or a bad one for crops) Another point: Considering each of the City-State was responsible for a levy of 1,000 slaves to the dragon there most be much larger populations in the form of client villages and wandering tribes around each of the city states. For a City-State like DS1 gulg to meet the levy, it would have to have a population growth rate of 11.8 percent a year just to meet the levy, and that says nothing about how much would be required to compensate for all the other deaths from disease, stavation, war, murder, the arena, old age, and accidents. Thats just an astronomical figure.
#7 kalthandrix Jul 29, 2005 10:01:01	Are those population numbers the total population, or just the freemen?
#8 ruhl-than_sage Jul 29, 2005 17:39:02	I always thought the populations of the City-States was far too small for their physical size and grandeur. Maybe they don't count the slaves, that would bump the populations of most of the city-states up by 10,000 or more. Much more in tune with the other aspects of the setting. For instance isn't Urik supposed to be something like 25 square miles (5 on each side) within the city walls. Unless a great deal of open space is included in that area, thats a ridiculous amount of space for 32,000 people in an urban environment. Thats 21,780 sq. ft./person, or a space about 147 ft. by 147 ft./person and thats not even counting basements and multiple stories. Now we can asume that about half of that space is taken up by roads and large public facilities like the arena. That still leaves an average of 10,890 sq. ft./person, or a space about 104 ft. by 104 ft./person.
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 29, 2005 18:10:11	You're also not counting things like, say, the Sorcerer-Kings' own residences, templar offices, elemental temples - all of which tend to be friggin huge. If you want to account for the extra space, chalk it up to a newly built extension to the Temple of Air or some such - or, in some cases more appropriately, additions to the Sorcerer-King's building intended to aid in their ascenscion to 'enlightenment'.
#10 ruhl-than_sage Jul 30, 2005 12:55:34	Well, I did already count out half the total space for roads and public buildings like the arena and such. Even if 3/4 of the space is taken up by things other than residences, which is quite possible. The average amount of space that each person in the city has to them selves is almost 5,500 sq. ft., again that still isn't counting the possiblity of basements and multiple stories, which could easily restore that figure to its previous status of 10,980. Look honestly even if 9/10th of the space in town is taken up by roads, public buildings, gardens, the king's palace, etc. You've still got an average space of about 2,180 sq. ft./person or 47ft. by 46ft. and that still isn't counting basements and multiple stories. Considering how large of a portion of the population slaves are supposed to be, don't quote me on this but 25-50%, that drives up the spaces alloted to each non-slave by a tremendous amount as the slaves would get very little space to themselves. Remember these figures are per person not per family, it does sound almost resonable for the average house size to be 47ft. by 46ft., but considering the rates of reproduction necessary to make the levy and conpensate for other deaths, I would wager that most families have quite a few children say 4 on average and many would live with their extended family out of necessity. So obviously either some group isn't being counted, whether it is slaves or young children, or non-citzens such as mechants, or a combination of those groups. Or, there are huge amounts of unused space within the city walls, due to population decline or somesuch.
#11 ruhl-than_sage Jul 30, 2005 13:06:26	I don't find it hard at all to believe that various groups might be excluded from a population estimate of the city. It the south during times of slavery in America, slaves were only counted as 2/3 of a person on the census, a huge boon to the political power of southerns, but vary distorting to populatioon figures. I don't find it hard to believe that they might not be counted or fully counted in athasian cities as well. Also considering the extremely high infant mortality rates of many primative societies, It seems perfectly plausable that children don't get counted until the age of 12 either. Then of course merchants are always coming and going and aren't officially residents of any city-state under the Merchant Code, so you could possibly subtract every member of a merchant house from the population figures also. All of this drives the real population of any given city-state at any given time up by as much as 75%.
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2005 14:42:48	Well, in some respects, that one of those little inconsistant changes between DS1 and DS2. Personally, I like the flavor of DS1 much better. Much, much mroe bleak. A world in atrophy because the people in power havn't changed in two thousand years, and the sheer misery caused by their efforts to hold on to that power. Not that the dynamic world isn't interesting to play in as well, but ... FY 312: (as presented in Dragon/Dungeon) Balic: Ruled by Andy (back from the black) Raam: Ruled by Dregoth Tyr: Still kinking and free Urik: ruled by Hamanu Draj: Atzutek has become a true sorcerer-king Gulg: They still love the Oba. Nibenay: Still named after it's ruler Kurn and Eldaarich: Unmentioned, I belive. I agree, DS1 was much better than DS2. I was going to go with the Dragon (year 300) era for my new campaign, but the more I thought about it, the more problems came up, like: Why would Dregoth stop at ruling Raam? He wants the world and godhood, in no particular order. Even if he found out that there was no way on Athas for him to become a god and gave up the rule the world bit, why not swing on over to Draj and take over? And were are the dray in his new city? I doubt he'd hide his perfect creations, let alone allow those filthy humans to be anything more than second class citizens. The whole scenario is dubious at best. As for Draj, how did Azetuk manage to become a spell granting sorcerer king (unless its actually Tec returned, of course)? By all standards, that's a feat impossible to reproduce. And then there's Balic. Andy was supposed to be imprisoned forever. I can see him escaping through a dimensional back door (Rajaat didn't have a whole lot of time, even schismed, to make his curse absolutely air-tight), but don't think the three remain SKs of the Tablelands would just let him walk right back into power so easily, if nothing else then for fear he was being influenced by Rajaat somehow. That is, if one of them didn't take over Balic in the 300 years beforehand, which is entirely likely (nice rich prize, no opposition...) Which brings us to Tyr, quite possibly the richest prize in the Tablelands with those nice iron mines. After Sadira dies off due to old age (does she still age?) or whatever, Tyr really has no defense against the SKs. Yeah, they can best their armies, but the SKs themselves would make short work of anything Tyr could field. Tyr is simply ripe for the picking, and I don't see it being a free city for too long without its heroes.
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2005 14:56:37	Are those population numbers the total population, or just the freemen? I'll agree with Sage and Dracochapel, we're probably talking citydwelling freeman & nobles. Itinerent merchents, very young children, and slaves are probably not included in these numbers for various reasons (merchents are just passing through, kids not old enough to take care of themselves could die off, slaves don't matter etc.). It should be noted, though, that these numbers are directly out of the books. I don't know what perspective TSR was counting populations from - the perspective above or modern perspective (ie everyone gets counted). In any case, I would say the actual population of any given city (with the possible exception of Gulg, do to lifestyle differences, and Tyr obviously) would include about three to four times the city's free population in slaves. I read at one time that in ancient Rome, there were about 8 slaves working to support the lifestyle of every free citizen, so I'm kind of basing my assumptions on that.
#14 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 30, 2005 15:13:47	Well, in some respects, that one of those little inconsistant changes between DS1 and DS2. Personally, I like the flavor of DS1 much better. Much, much mroe bleak. A world in atrophy because the people in power havn't changed in two thousand years, and the sheer misery caused by their efforts to hold on to that power. Not that the dynamic world isn't interesting to play in as well, but ... Personally, I like the flavor of DS2 better - things have changed, nothing is as it was before. Now personally, I like to make it that more or less, the events of the Prism Pentad did much more harm than good overall, but the people may not be truly aware of just how bad things have really gotten. Breaking the balance of power in the region suddenly, a balance that has lasted for thousands of years, is never a good thing for a world that is already in its death throes. Oh, and I don't like going to FY 312. I personally don't see Athas as surviving that long, even remotely.
#15 zombiegleemax Jul 30, 2005 15:59:00	Personally, I like the flavor of DS2 better - things have changed, nothing is as it was before. Now personally, I like to make it that more or less, the events of the Prism Pentad did much more harm than good overall, but the people may not be truly aware of just how bad things have really gotten. Breaking the balance of power in the region suddenly, a balance that has lasted for thousands of years, is never a good thing for a world that is already in its death throes. Oh, and I don't like going to FY 312. I personally don't see Athas as surviving that long, even remotely. I agree, the PP probably did more damage to the welfare of the average Athasian than anything since Borys settled down and regained sanity. With Borys around, things were bad, but stable. Now, there's really nothing stoping the remaining SKs from going at each others throats except their own self restraint. And if it does come to direct conflict between the SKs, kiss the arable land left in the Tablelands goodbye. And then there's the bugs, and the space halflings, and good ole Rajaat, not to mention Dregoth. And if Daskinor gets some paranoid delusion about the other SKs and decides to wage war on Kurn or Draj (or worse yet, if he gets off his dead arse and transforms into the crazy stages of dragonhood) everybody's got big problems. Ironically, after Dregoth, I see Daskinor as the biggest threat to the Tablelands, simply because of the random nature of his insanity. I don't think Athas will be totally uninhabitably within the next 300 years, though. I see it as a slower, more horrible demise.
#16 squidfur- Jul 30, 2005 19:20:53	For instance isn't Urik supposed to be something like 25 square miles (5 on each side) within the city walls. Question - Where is it stated that Urik is that size? This is HUGE if I've missed it?
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2005 14:43:39	Question - Where is it stated that Urik is that size? This is HUGE if I've missed it? I think its in Veiled Alliance.
#18 korvar Jul 31, 2005 15:15:21	I think its in Veiled Alliance. It is the VA. Urik is specifically mentioned as being to big for its population, as if Hamanu spent too much at the beginning of his Sim City game, and never actually managed to grow enough people to fill it up. Well, okay, that's not exactly the metaphor they used...
#19 zombiegleemax Jul 31, 2005 15:38:44	It is the VA. Urik is specifically mentioned as being to big for its population, as if Hamanu spent too much at the beginning of his Sim City game, and never actually managed to grow enough people to fill it up. Well, okay, that's not exactly the metaphor they used... :heehee
#20 squidfur- Jul 31, 2005 19:58:55	It is the VA. Urik is specifically mentioned as being to big for its population, as if Hamanu spent too much at the beginning of his Sim City game, and never actually managed to grow enough people to fill it up. Well, okay, that's not exactly the metaphor they used... I'm familiar with the part you speak of, but, even when looking through the book right now, am unable to find an actual number mentioned. So, if it's not too much to ask, can I get a specific page # of this reference of 25 sq. miles. Pretty please....
#21 ruhl-than_sage Jul 31, 2005 22:55:27	:P Ok, you got me, that was from the only good map I've seen of the city. Its not official, I just never liked the small populations of the City-States, they are supposed to be the centers for entire cultures. Plus, I really wanted to talk about the census and calculate sizes of average houses and stuff. I'm suprised no one else noticed :D
#22 elonarc Aug 01, 2005 3:49:13	Great Sage, just great. [/irony]
#23 ruhl-than_sage Aug 01, 2005 11:20:28	Wow, where did you get the cool smiles from ! Hey I thought it might be official since that was what was on the map, and then when no one questioned it I just went along. I fessed up
#24 zombiegleemax Aug 01, 2005 13:01:38	Wow, where did you get the cool smiles from ! Hey I thought it might be official since that was what was on the map, and then when no one questioned it I just went along. I fessed up It's a justified assumption, though, based on the VA material.
#25 woobyluv Aug 15, 2005 23:55:28	:P Ok, you got me, that was from the only good map I've seen of the city. Its not official, I just never liked the small populations of the City-States, they are supposed to be the centers for entire cultures. Plus, I really wanted to talk about the census and calculate sizes of average houses and stuff. I'm suprised no one else noticed :D It's interesting you should mention seeing a good map of Urik, I have been looking for quite some time for such a map, that I might work on updating and fleshing it out, but alas, I find it rather difficult to find. Could you perhaps, lead me to such a map of Urik?
#26 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2005 0:24:49	It's interesting you should mention seeing a good map of Urik, I have been looking for quite some time for such a map, that I might work on updating and fleshing it out, but alas, I find it rather difficult to find. Could you perhaps, lead me to such a map of Urik? I don't know if this is the one Sage is talking about, but try here.
#27 squidfur- Aug 16, 2005 1:08:31	seems your link is broken ehh, just have to go to the gallery menu on the left of the page it brings up. Its toward the bottom of the gallery. Now, as far as this map goes, however, it IS about as good a map of Urik as your gonna find. Problem is - it's still wrong. Oh let me count the ways. Oh well, i'll just have to use that knowledge to push myself that much more.
#28 woobyluv Aug 16, 2005 1:51:49	I don't know if this is the one Sage is talking about, but try here. I appreciate the assistance rendered. If only the map key were available...
#29 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 16, 2005 3:07:54	I can get the map key up there for it shortly. I had saved the original page, which was part of a website that doesn't seem to exist any more, and had found the Urik map when I was cleaning my fileserver.
#30 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2005 4:01:18	I can get the map key up there for it shortly. I had saved the original page, which was part of a website that doesn't seem to exist any more, and had found the Urik map when I was cleaning my fileserver. Cool! I've wondered where that was.
#31 ruhl-than_sage Aug 16, 2005 8:47:24	No that wasn't the one, though I had seen that one as well. I'll have to look around in my files for it.
#32 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Aug 16, 2005 14:33:57	Besides, I still need to add the credit lines to the maps I have anyway. Like I did with Dawnstealer's pics.
#33 woobyluv Aug 24, 2005 1:27:43	I'm not sure if this has been addressed in past posts. I can't seem to find any material alluding to my point but, what is the general consensus as to how often the Dragon demanded a levy from a City-State or village or whatever? It would stand to reason that if 1,000 lives were sacrificed in such a manner every year, there would be no City-States left given the amount of time that has passed since the first levy. I am of the opinion that the levy cycled between the City-States. Though to maintain the prison for Rajaat required many recastings of the wards, it shouldn't have required a levies worth of lives every single year. This topic seems only relevent for campaigns starting or ongoing prior to the final events of the Prism Pentad, yet is a nagging concern for the direction of my campaign. Any thoughts?
#34 Pennarin Aug 24, 2005 1:34:06	what is the general consensus as to how often the Dragon demanded a levy from a City-State or village or whatever? It would stand to reason that if 1,000 lives were sacrificed in such a manner every year, there would be no City-States left given the amount of time that has passed since the first levy. I am of the opinion that the levy cycled between the City-States. Though to maintain the prison for Rajaat required many recastings of the wards, it shouldn't have required a levies worth of lives every single year. Your concern has already been adressed, but maybe not in this thread. Its clearly stated each city gives a levy of 1,000 people every year.