Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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#1zombiegleemaxAug 03, 2005 18:14:15 | It can be explained simply as follows: Following the events of the unscheduled modron march, the Modrons became tainted with...chaos. They no longer were truely perfect creatures of law. The fact that a Tanar-ric power served as primus for a short while caused this catastrophic event to occur. |
#2ripvanwormerAug 03, 2005 23:36:57 | You're not the first to use that theory (not by a long shot, actually). If you like the idea that modrons have been marginalized, it's certainly a good one. If you assume the modrons are as thriving as they ever were, you don't need a theory at all, so the "Orcus screwed up the modrons" premise is still good. If the modron race was messed up that badly by Orcus, though, it'd be equally interesting to explore how much Orcus was messed up by the modrons. The Great Modron March hinted that Orcus had gained, during his time as the One and Prime, a glimmering of ethics, and guilt, and other alien feelings he hadn't previously known existed. Infected by law, he might eventually evolve into a very different demon. |
#3zombiegleemaxAug 04, 2005 7:37:11 | Its my thought that when he served as Primus he was linked to the Modron energy pool... |
#4ripvanwormerAug 04, 2005 12:33:12 | Its my thought that when he served as Primus he was linked to the Modron energy pool... That's right... |
#5zombiegleemaxAug 04, 2005 14:44:13 | Hmmmmm... A being who used to be what in some sense was one with a portion (layer) of the most extreme Multiversial embodiment of Chaos and Evil is put in charge of and in direct touch with the entirerty of the race (assuming now that a Rogue Modron is something other than a normal one) that at least used to be considered a perfect embodiment of Law without other considerations... Now, "The Deva Spark" presents us with a somewhat similar (if not neccessarily equivalent) scenario, and there the (power-created) embodiment of an alignment can apparently affect another creature of a different alignment to become more like it. Presumably, in such a match, most any given Modron, Primus and maybe Secundi aside, would seem likely to become drawn towards Orcus's alignment. Of course, it is likely enough that no such fusion took place... In fact, in the end, it would seem that the events of "TGMM" would have required Orcus/Tenebrous to be far more like Primus than the Modrons would have needed to become like him. (Indeed, Modrons running around acting Tanar'ri-like would have been sure to draw all kinds of suspicion, somewhat ruining the whole point of seizing Primus' position in the first place...). So, while disturbances may have been left in the structure of the Modrons, it seems likely that Orcus, if anyone, was the one who was left with the most lasting impression. Unless his death and resurrection from the Astral undid it alll... So, in short: who knows?! |
#6weenieAug 06, 2005 1:53:52 | Why the Modrons are the exemplars of Mechanus no longer Who says they're not? AFAIK, in most Planescape games, the modrons are alive and well, and in charge of the gears. Of course, if you want them to step down and leave the place under the control of giant ants, that "Fat Demon Did It" explanation works as well as any... in fact, it beats the RL explanation by a longshot. |
#7zombiegleemaxAug 07, 2005 3:57:39 | I think the real life description is "but they're too cute for PC's to kill! You can't have mercylessly lawful but cute beings in a game, you'd get religious organisations back on your neck again" :D |
#8sildatorakAug 07, 2005 14:52:53 | I think that the most likely explanation is "r0bots are teh stoopid. ANTZ ROCKS!" The orcus taint is probably the best explanation if you want to take modrons out of the big picture, but that hasn't been suggested in any official capacity. |
#9zombiegleemaxAug 08, 2005 16:23:28 | I'm thinking up a new race that will better serve as exemplars of law, taking into account that Mechanus used to be called Nirvana, and that the plane of gears, Mechanus, is only one layer of a greater plane of law. |
#10zombiegleemaxAug 08, 2005 17:02:13 | Well, there's that layer of arcadia... But that's also a cog now |
#11ripvanwormerAug 08, 2005 18:15:51 | I think that the most likely explanation is "r0bots are teh stoopid. ANTZ ROCKS!" That doesn't explain inevitables, though. |
#12sildatorakAug 08, 2005 18:45:17 | Inevitables are golems, not robots. Don't they teach you kids anything in school these days :P |
#13ripvanwormerAug 08, 2005 19:52:11 | Inevitables are golems, not robots. Don't they teach you kids anything in school these days :P Sadly, I flunked golem-making twice (which is why I had to change my major from Kabbala to Tantra). My flesh golems kept rampaging and demanding I make them brides. I'll defer to your greater knowledge of constructs. |
#14sildatorakAug 09, 2005 6:26:45 | For the flesh golems the best bet is to chase them north of the artic circle. If you've got a clay golem that goes out of control, you'd best be striking the aleph off its forehead. Other than that, you're basically reduced to just reducing them to 0 hp |
#15ThailfiAug 11, 2005 10:44:22 | What's this stuff with Orcus, ants, and inevitables? Everyone knows that Orcus is a dead rock floating in the astral plane, the modrons are the unquestioned rulers of Mechanus, ants are a minor annoyance easily solved with a can of raid, and inevitables are just tools to be used by the modrons. That is the way it is and the way it should be. Any other thinking is dangerous and has no place in properly ordered society. No piddly little demon lord can take down the greatness that are the modrons. That little unscheduled march was just an easily fixed system error. Everything got rebooted and all is right with the multiverse. |
#16zombiegleemaxAug 11, 2005 16:37:02 | ah but the unscheduled march was not a lawful act.... :D |
#17zombiegleemaxAug 12, 2005 12:39:10 | Everyone knows that Orcus is a dead rock floating in the astral plane, Ah...here you are wrong...Orcus was resurrected as Tenebrous, an undead demon, and then took his revenge and reclaimed his post as top dog on Thanatos. So, Orcus is "alive" and well.... |
#18zombiegleemaxAug 13, 2005 13:57:24 | Typical for evil undead gods. Now they're dead, now they're missing, now they're alive and well... I wish they'd make up their minds :D |
#19ThailfiAug 15, 2005 13:27:18 | Ah...here you are wrong...Orcus was resurrected as Tenebrous, an undead demon, and then took his revenge and reclaimed his post as top dog on Thanatos. So, Orcus is "alive" and well.... Is there a published module/adventure regarding Orcus/Tenebrous that has events that take place after Dead Gods? Your post leads me to believe that this is so, but I have not seen anything. |
#20zombiegleemaxAug 15, 2005 14:24:54 | Manual of the PLanes 3e. It mentions that Orcus has indeed returned. Despite the fact that the ritual to return him was disrupted "in the elventh hour" as it were, he's back and Kiaransalee is running scared. |
#21Wolfen_FenrisonAug 20, 2005 10:35:46 | also read his section in book of vile darkness and his religious following in libris mortis "guess whos back, back again, orcus' back, back again, guess whos back, guess whos back, guess whos back,............" from what I remember orcus' servent completed enough of the ritual to bring him back as demon prince instead of a god, he is back in control of his layer of the abyss, and he has no idea (we assume) that his Lt. the ghoul king is under control of the the demon prince of gnolls. The orcus taint story feels so much better than the truth, one of the game designers doesn't like them and reduced them to a web enhancement instead of putting them in MM 1/2/3, or fiend folio, manual of the planes, not even planar handbook (thats like six books at least could have been have modrons), although either explanation is an sorry way for a kewl race to get treated so. |
#22zombiegleemaxAug 29, 2005 21:40:24 | Another thing that bugs me, is, if the Modrons lost their position, how did, or why did, the Formians go from Lawful Good natives of Arcadia to the new exemplars of law? |
#23zombiegleemaxAug 30, 2005 2:38:39 | They were lawful good? |
#24zombiegleemaxAug 30, 2005 11:21:54 | Yes...and they, in 2nd edition, were into harmony and were peaceful.. |
#25ripvanwormerAug 30, 2005 12:15:51 | Another thing that bugs me, is, if the Modrons lost their position, how did, or why did, the Formians go from Lawful Good natives of Arcadia to the new exemplars of law? Formians were actually listed as Lawful Neutral with good tendencies in 2e. They replaced modrons in the Monster Manual because there are less formian castes, so they could save space. The original intention was to put modrons in the Manual of the Planes. Modrons are in the Manual of the Planes, but again their stats were cut for reasons of space. At that point, someone at Wizards decided modrons were stupid, so they don't appear anywhere after the MotP except in a web enhancement. Formians, on the other hand, are still peaceful and good-inclined in their native plane of Arcadia, according to the Manual of the Planes. They only become aggressive and expansionist in Mechanus and elsewhere. This was also true in 2e, which said "...formians found on the Prime make war on each other, [but] Arcadian formians of different hives have learned to live together peaceably." The implication is that it's the natural harmony of Arcadia that makes formians peaceable, not anything inherent in the species. Formians originally appeared in the 1st edition Monster Manual II, where they were described as Lawful Neutral and warlike. Arcadia (or any outer plane) was not mentioned in their original description. |
#26zombiegleemaxAug 30, 2005 17:11:08 | The Formians would be more interesting if they had more varieties. The problem with 3rd edition is that the designers seem more interested in saving space then making a good projuct. Remember the days when individual Tanar ri were given an entire entry? I think that is also the reasons why monster books dont have Habitat or Ecology entires anymore. This forces DMs to create monster behaviors from scratch. For example, how and where does a particular monster make its nest? Believe it or not, but that information is actually important. |
#27zombiegleemaxAug 31, 2005 4:02:51 | Also: What do they eat? Meat? Vegetables? Seafood? Air? Elves? Elementals? The new monsters are really too concentrated on killing and that makes lazy DM-s (like me) use them like that and most combat has nothing to do with the actual adventure because it's mostly like "and then you walk through the forest and OUT OF NOWHERE COMES AN ACHAIERAI FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER!!! ROLL INITIATIVE!!!!!!1". And then later I find out they're not just a bunch of stupid birds that hang around acheron and fart insanity poison but they have a whole evil culture thing and rust dragons as pets and everything :embarrass |
#28zombiegleemaxAug 31, 2005 12:46:08 | Yes..I know, Wizards needs to really get in gear and return the monster books to the way they were in 2nd edition. Everything else in 3rd is great, but if 3rd has any weaknesses, its the monsters. |
#29zombiegleemaxSep 01, 2005 4:38:46 | Not just the monsters. All country descriptions are just "this is where the goblins live. They import silver, export lumber and also, there are dragons here. Dungeons too" Okay, they're improving with Eberron, but when the 3ed started, all the worldbooks were terribly short. |
#30zombiegleemaxSep 01, 2005 10:32:55 | Agreed, combat and stats seem to be the focus of 3rd edition. There is more to Roleplaying than that, much more. I hope 4th edition, if there is one, is more balanced between 3rd and 2nd edition extremes, hopefully like 2nd edition but with the D20 rules system. |