I resume my work preparing for the Greyhawk campaign that will soon run. My home-brew campaign of 10 years running is soon going to draw to its apocalyptic conclusion.
I have chosen to run Shackled City after purchasing the HC from Paizo. That said, my new campaign will be run in the Hellfurnaces region, and although the Shackled City HC does well in explaining the region directly surrounding Cauldron, I would like to study a bit farther out. Hence, this post.
I am looking for decent resources 1e - 3.5e on the following regions:
***Hellfurnaces
***Amedio Jungle
***Sea of Dust
***Jeklea Bay (including the isles of Jetsom, Flotsom, Fairwind, and Sybarate)
***Hold of the Sea Princes
***Kamph Mountains
I also have a particular interest the port cities of Sasserine and Toli, if any modules or sourcebooks detail them.
At my disposal I have nearly all 3e - 3.5 Wizards sourcebooks. For Greyhawk I have the LGG and the '83 boxed set (Gygax rules).
As I've mentioned in some of my earlier posts, I don't know what I want to embrace for Greyhawk canon. On the one hand, there is a certain nostalgia and simplicity to running a 576cy campaign. It's what I'd prefer, I think. However, if I don't go with 591cy, I'm afraid that if there comes any future development of Greyhawk by Wizards, I'll be in a pickle with what to do, how to mix and match the Greyhawk of today with the Greyhawk of 576cy. I may go with a 591cy game in which I embrace the post-Gygaxian elements I enjoy, and disregard those I find distasteful. Particularly, Rary the Traitor.
'Hawkers, how do you run your Greyhawk campaign, and how do you account for those elements you disregard when future development of the setting is contingent on that which you have ignored or replaced?
It's a conundrum I have never faced as a DM. So many years of home-brew. The last time I ran a setting, I was a teenager running 1e making up half the rules as I went along. I used to use the Greyhawk maps from the '83 boxed set, but I used all Norse deities, using Walt Simonson's Thor as a theme! So, even then I strayed from the norm.
As always, any advice or words of wisdom will be appreciated.
--Ghul
UK 1 covers Sybarate Island.
UK 2 and UK 3 have information on the Kampf Mountains.
C1 has information on the Amedio Jungle.
But the background information is very minor, and most gets summarized in the LGG entries for those areas.
According to the Zavodaclopedia:
Hellfurnaces [MT]
ATG - 4
COG:FFF - 54
DRG#209 - 13,14
DRG#225 - 49
DRG#230 - 9,12,15
DRG#233 - 92
DRG#241 - 41,45,46,47,49,50,79
DRG#243 - 91
DRG#268 - 70
DRG#290 - 106
DRG#298 - 73,84
DRG#AN1 - 72
DUN#70 - 48,49
FTAA - 3,56,62,72
FTAR#12
GA - 73,78,87,90
GDQ - 3,4,18,125,126
LGG - 8,18,54,100-102,134,135,143,149,155
LGJ#0 - 11
LGJ#1 - 18
PGTG - 3,5,7,8,24,36,39,40
POLY#58 - 15
RTO8 - 60
TAB - 14,16
TSB - 3,62,63,67,68,81,Map
WGG - 5,23,24
WGR3 - 33
WOGA - 8,51-53,61
WOGG - 14,15,27,30,IBC
Sea of Dust [WST]
ATG - 4,73
COG:FFF - 32
COLTM - 23
DRG#57 - 13
DRG#92 - 24
DRG#189 - 13
DRG#209 - 11
DRG#225 - 49
DRG#230 - 9,13,14,16
DRG#233 - 93
DRG#241 - 40,41,43,44,45,79
DRG#243 - 90,91
DRG#256 - 46
DRG#AN1 - 72
FTAA - 3,56,62,63
FTAR#12
GA - 3,22,30,83,90,96,98-100
GW:ADV - 30
LGG - 4,8,13,17,102,135,143,154,155,163
LGJ#1 - 12
LGJ#4 - 16
PGTG - 7-9,36
POLY#101 - 31
RTO8 - 60
TAB - 13,14,38
TSB - 23,35,68,76,Map
TSC - 9
WG8 - 117,118
WGA4 - 50,71
WGG - 5,24
WGR1 - 79
WGR2 - 24
WGR5 - 63
WGS2 - 46
WOGA - 8,53,61
WOGG - 15,27
(personally, I base my descriptions of the SoD on the way Gygax described it in the Gord novel "Sea of Death")
Sea Princes, Hold of (Pop 100,000+)[KNG]
C1 - 2
COG:FFF - 67
CTH - 85
DRG#52 - 20
DRG#90 - 26
DRG#230 - 13
DRG#263 - 51
DRG#264 - 47
DRG#270 - 60
DRG#292 - 98
DRG#299 - 102,103
DUN#41 - 50
FTAA - 36
GW:ADV - 29,32
LGG - 16,66,100,101,102,121,135,147,152,IBC
LGJ#1 - 18,19
LGJ#2 - 29,30
LGJ#3 - 12
LGJ#4 - 16
LOG - 13,15,98
PGTG - 5,8,11,16,34,59
POLY#43 - 30
SLV - 87,92
TAB - 15,16,19,32,34,35,86
TSB - 5-7,9,18,24,63
U3 - 16
WG6 - 22
WGG - 5,15,25
WOGA - 8,34
WOGG - 5,17
As for the rest, don't sweat it. Actually, it's the one thing that makes me love GH above all other settings: not having to care about future accessories. Oh, sure, I would love to see more of those (if they were high quality, of course) but I can live with the setting as it is. Heck! My campaign is set in Nyrond in 585 CY (just after the GH Wars) and I use what has been written about events from then to 591 CY only as a source of inspiration about events elsewhere in the Flanaess.
My advice is to choose a year, consider events that have occured (according to 'canon' accessories) till then as official and to allow the world to evolve according to your vision from then on. The Shackled City adventure doesn't really belong in GH to begin with, so using the GH location suggested in Dungeon is already stretching things a bit. If you feel confident enough to do that, changing history on a broad scale should be a breeze.
IF (and that's a pretty big 'if') GH accessories were published in the future that were just too good to ignore, retrofit them in your campaign. Remember: you're in control. If you say it rains today in the Sea of Dust, it does. Simple as that.
One last suggestion: the old module UK6 All That Glitters is a perfect fit if you're trying to get your PC from the Amedio to the Sea of Dust.
About the only sources for most of that are modules UK 1 Beyond the Crystal Caves, UK 2 The Sentinel, and moduel UK 3 The Gauntlet. You can find a bit in module C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan as well.
UK 1 covers Sybarate Island.
UK 2 and UK 3 have information on the Kampf Mountains.
C1 has information on the Amedio Jungle.
But the background information is very minor, and most gets summarized in the LGG entries for those areas.
Thankee-sai, Master Samwise, and I do believe looking back the Old C1 will be a fine idea. As for the Amedio, I found what Mr. Mortepierre mentions in this thread -- that the Scarlet Brotherhood is full of good information. I'll get to his post next, as soon as time permits . . .
--Ghul
And that is because I consider it to be full of very poor information.
You'd be better off ignoring it completely.
Sure, it doesn't depict the SB some fans expected but it was still logical given what we had learnt about it so far.
It is the generally poor research and writing, and the blandly stereotypical Olman and Touv. There is absolutely nothing creative in either of those portrayals. I'm sure some appreciate second-rate imitations of direct, real world cultures and peoples. But when it becomes as weak as done in the SB book, it starts moving from homage to stereotype.
And of course, he also doesn't know what extra virgin olive oil is either.
So packed with information is great. If the information is worthwhile. The information in SB isn't.
The Scarlet Brotherhood (2E) accessory is - currently - the major source of info on the Amedio.
According to the Zavodaclopedia:
How ever do you attain such resource info? Thew good thing is that, via cd-rom, I have most of the dragon mags (1-250, anyway) but I unfamilar with a lot of the other abbreviations listed.
As for the rest, don't sweat it. Actually, it's the one thing that makes me love GH above all other settings: not having to care about future accessories. Oh, sure, I would love to see more of those (if they were high quality, of course) but I can live with the setting as it is. Heck! My campaign is set in Nyrond in 585 CY (just after the GH Wars) and I use what has been written about events from then to 591 CY only as a source of inspiration about events elsewhere in the Flanaess.
Yes, which is why I am so strongly motivated to go 576, ignoring all the history that follows. Pure Gygaxina (and his few trusted accomplices), if you would.
My advice is to choose a year, consider events that have occured (according to 'canon' accessories) till then as official and to allow the world to evolve according to your vision from then on.
And that is exactly what I intend to do, which is why I could never run Forgotten Realms. I suppose Wizards ignoring Greyhawk, save for the occasional generi-Hawk references, may be a good thing afterall.
The Shackled City adventure doesn't really belong in GH to begin with, so using the GH location suggested in Dungeon is already stretching things a bit. If you feel confident enough to do that, changing history on a broad scale should be a breeze.
I think the GH maps are big enough that any creative DM can plop the adventure in any mountain range; however, since I have yet to introduce my players to this campaign, and since part of the thrill will be presenting thosefour giant maps, laminated and such, it will be cool to show them the little corner of the Hellfurnaces where their game takes place.
IF (and that's a pretty big 'if') GH accessories were published in the future that were just too good to ignore, retrofit them in your campaign. Remember: you're in control. If you say it rains today in the Sea of Dust, it does. Simple as that.
I hear you, and I agree. The omnipotence of the DM is something that cannot be ignored!
One last suggestion: the old module UK6 All That Glitters is a perfect fit if you're trying to get your PC from the Amedio to the Sea of Dust.
Thanks for all the info, sir. I plan to check the resources you've listed...err, at least the ones I have. You sound like a venerable DM who's been through it all. I'm a DM of 23 years, personally, and I'm still trying to figure out the rules.
"Is that an attack of opportunity?"
"Uh, I dunno. Let's look it up?"
"It is, it is!"
"No. It's not. You see, the Bugbear has partial cover, which means it's not subject to an AoO."
"That sucks! What's the difference. It's not fair!"
"Sit down, plebeian."
--Ghul
How ever do you attain such resource info? Thew good thing is that, via cd-rom, I have most of the dragon mags (1-250, anyway) but I unfamilar with a lot of the other abbreviations listed.
Easy. Go here:http://www.harvestersheroes.com/
and download the Encyclopedia Greyhawkania by Jason Zavoda (bless his soul!). The list of abbreviations is found at the beginning of the file.
Thanks for all the info, sir. I plan to check the resources you've listed...err, at least the ones I have. You sound like a venerable DM who's been through it all. I'm a DM of 23 years, personally, and I'm still trying to figure out the rules.
Pleasure to be of help. I have been a DM for these past.. er.. 24 years at last count (Istus! I can't be that old yet!) and every time I put up my DM's screen, it still feels like the first time. I am not talking about rules here. What this is about is complacency. IMHO, a DM never grows so good at his trade that he can afford to sit on his arse and let his past reputation do the work for him. As long as you remember that, your players won't have room to complain.
Whether or not the SB presented was logical is not what I find poor in it.
It is the generally poor research and writing, and the blandly stereotypical Olman and Touv. There is absolutely nothing creative in either of those portrayals. I'm sure some appreciate second-rate imitations of direct, real world cultures and peoples. But when it becomes as weak as done in the SB book, it starts moving from homage to stereotype.
And of course, he also doesn't know what extra virgin olive oil is either.
So packed with information is great. If the information is worthwhile. The information in SB isn't.
Oh come on! The way the Touv and Olman were treated is similar to the treatment other ethnic groups of the Flanaess received. The old C1 module had made clear the Olman had a culture similar to pre-conquista South America, so the author had to build on this fact. As for the Touv, what did you expect? Hepmonaland has always been treated as Oerth's Africa.
Heck! The other ethnic groups are already imitations of real world cultures! (except for the Suel, although they both look and sound like Moorcock's Melniboneans)
Moreover, Sean Reynolds used material from Roger Moore. So, blaming him for everything isn't very fair.
Was it the best GH accessory ever produced? No, not by a long shot.
Was it worthless? No, not by a long shot either.
But to each his own I guess...
Oh come on! The way the Touv and Olman were treated is similar to the treatment other ethnic groups of the Flanaess received. The old C1 module had made clear the Olman had a culture similar to pre-conquista South America, so the author had to build on this fact. As for the Touv, what did you expect? Hepmonaland has always been treated as Oerth's Africa.
What other ethnic groups?
I see only one other case where the physical description and a cultural aspect matches a real world group. That is the Thillronian Suel. And they receive a significantly superior treatment.
As for C1, it was a tournament module that was very poorly fit into GH. The author did not have to build on that fact. He could have chosen to create something new. Even without that, he could have chosen to do a better job.
As for Hepmonaland being treated as "Oerth's Africa", where is it so treated in any GH product? At best I1 makes it more "Oerth's quasi-pseudo-Indochina", but even that is a stretch assuming that bullywugs, yuan-ti, tasloi, and an Oriental dragon make it such. But again, even with that, the effort was poor, doing little more than look in Ye Big Booke of Pre-Colonial African Cultural Stereotypes, and copying whatever looked good.
Heck! The other ethnic groups are already imitations of real world cultures! (except for the Suel, although they both look and sound like Moorcock's Melniboneans)
They are?
The Flan look Hamitic and are commonly portrayed as some combination of Native American and Celtic. That doesn't match.
The Oeridians look Mediterranean or Semitic and are commonly portrayed as some combination of Germanic, either French (Frankish) or German. That doesn't match.
The Baklunish would look Asian if you didn't read their description closely and note the difference in skin tone, while their culture seems to hop back and forth between Arabic and Mongol with some Turkic thrown in. That doesn't match.
The Suel would look Nordic, except for their hair and body type, and they are commonly portrayed as Nordic, the one match, or Roman, which doesn't match.
So the other ethnic groups of Greyhawk are not imitations of anything.
Moreover, Sean Reynolds used material from Roger Moore. So, blaming him for everything isn't very fair.
So it would make you happy if I called Roger a lousy editor and writer of Greyhawk material to go along with Sean being a lousy writer of Greyhawk material?
Well, OK. If it makes you happy.
(And to note: I think Roger Moore is actually a fairly good writer of non-GH products, not to mention having been a good Dragon editor. I just dislike his GH efforts.)
Was it the best GH accessory ever produced? No, not by a long shot.
Was it worthless? No, not by a long shot either.
But to each his own I guess...
It was very poor, and it established such lousy material as "canon" that must be accommodated or, hopefully someday, eliminated, that it is functionally worthless.
Oh, there is probably a few pages of useful text in it. But it is overwhelmed by the useless and damaging text.
And yes, to each his own. I dislike it, and I am saying so. I'm not sure why that should be so controversial.
Besides, I personally have to say that I came to like the style of SB. If you find it cheap somewhere, it's really worth buying - now, for 20++ $ at some auctions houses, you can get the whole city of Greyhawk box as well. ;)So the other ethnic groups of Greyhawk are not imitations of anything.
Don't forget the Rhennee. Of course, they might not count as imitations, since it's implied that they are Romany from Earth. Or perhaps they're from Uerth or Yarth or something (maybe one of those worlds has a continent called Rhop).
The Aztecs believed that their world was only the most recent of four worlds, each of the previous ones destroyed by the gods. I had the idea that their gods had placed a few of them in Oerth in preparation for the next wave of destruction, perhaps not realizing other pantheons had already claimed it. That is, the idea is that they seem suspiciously like Aztecs because they are Aztecs, or Uerth/Aerth/Yarth equivalents.
But I have no problem with the idea of them being more like the Flan or Suel, a distinct and unique people with their own non-Earthly gods. That'd be cool, too.
They are?
The Flan look Hamitic and are commonly portrayed as some combination of Native American and Celtic. That doesn't match.
The Oeridians look Mediterranean or Semitic and are commonly portrayed as some combination of Germanic, either French (Frankish) or German. That doesn't match.
The Baklunish would look Asian if you didn't read their description closely and note the difference in skin tone, while their culture seems to hop back and forth between Arabic and Mongol with some Turkic thrown in. That doesn't match.
The Suel would look Nordic, except for their hair and body type, and they are commonly portrayed as Nordic, the one match, or Roman, which doesn't match.
So the other ethnic groups of Greyhawk are not imitations of anything.
OK, so "imitation" was too strong a word. I should have use "inspiration" rather. Still, while those ethnic groups aren't a direct match of real world cultures, they are still heavily inspired by them. You yourself gave the list. That's hardly what I would call "original" material in terms of developping new cultures. Thus, the treatment the Olman and Touv got was no different IMHO.
So it would make you happy if I called Roger a lousy editor and writer of Greyhawk material to go along with Sean being a lousy writer of Greyhawk material?
Well, OK. If it makes you happy.
(And to note: I think Roger Moore is actually a fairly good writer of non-GH products, not to mention having been a good Dragon editor. I just dislike his GH efforts.)
No, it wouldn't given I don't think Sean's work was 'lousy'. Not inspired, I'll grant you that, but certainly not lousy.
OK, so "imitation" was too strong a word. I should have use "inspiration" rather. Still, while those ethnic groups aren't a direct match of real world cultures, they are still heavily inspired by them. You yourself gave the list. That's hardly what I would call "original" material in terms of developping new cultures. Thus, the treatment the Olman and Touv got was no different IMHO.
It doesn't even manage inspiration. Unless you somehow see a correspondence between Ethiopians and Native Americans that completely eludes me.
And yes, I gave a list. A list that stretches the bounds of equivalence in order to draw any comparison, no matter how extreme, between the descriptions of GH races and real world races. That says more about my knowedge of real world ethnic and racial typing than it does about equivalencies in LG.
No, it wouldn't given I don't think Sean's work was 'lousy'. Not inspired, I'll grant you that, but certainly not lousy.
Then why bring any other people up?
And if I am paying for it, I consider work that is "not inspired" to be lousy at best.
Dave Howery (where has he gotten to these long years?) based most of his dark continent adventures in an african setting, listing Hempmona Land as a reasonable area for its settings in greyhawk. He's not a canon writer, but he and I as well were pretty much sure Hempmona Land WAS much closer to Africa than Indochina.
Yes, but why?
Particularly if you play the "All canon is sacred" game, and must account for the specific contents of Dwellers of the Forbidden City, which is distinctly Asian themed rather than African themed.
What is it about Hepmonaland that makes it the mandatory choice to become the pseudo-Africa of Greyhawk?
And more than that, why must real world Africans get a fantasy glossover, and be inserted directly into the game?
'Hawkers,
I am looking for decent resources 1e - 3.5e on the following regions:
***Hellfurnaces
***Amedio Jungle
***Sea of Dust
***Jeklea Bay (including the isles of Jetsom, Flotsom, Fairwind, and Sybarate)
***Hold of the Sea Princes
***Kamph Mountains
If you're looking for the far north of the Hold of the Sea Princes, between the Hool and the Tors, check out my City of Melkot stuff on my website.
Use the Site Map to jump around easily.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
=============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
If you're looking for the far north of the Hold of the Sea Princes, between the Hool and the Tors, check out my City of Melkot stuff on my website.
Use the Site Map to jump around easily.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
=============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/
Wow. I am impressed. You developed that all on your own? That is some amazing material that I may pluck from one day for my game. I thank you for your hard work, creativity, and dilligence. You just made my bookmark list. :-)
--ghul
Wow. I am impressed. You developed that all on your own? That is some amazing material that I may pluck from one day for my game. I thank you for your hard work, creativity, and dilligence. You just made my bookmark list. :-)
--ghul
Thanks! Yup, the entire site is all original and all me alone. I only wish I had the time to finish all the other things destined to be uploaded eventually. Melkot alone is a manilla folder filled with over 130 pages (real sheets of paper, many of them maps of the castle and city buildings).
Check back from time to time.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
=============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com/