What is the Power/Magic Tone in Ravenloft? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

What is the Power/Magic Tone in Ravenloft?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Aug 06, 2005 19:07:13 I want to know whether the setting is crawling with High-level NPCs akin to a High-powered/magic Campaign like Forgotten Realms, or is the setting more realistic like d20 Modern in a low power/magic tone?
High Powered Campaigns: "You're team is comprised of 30th level characters in need of a good adventure? That CR 39 Wizard named Elminster could help you?
He lives in a silo in some village called Shadowdale with nothing better to do than read his favorite novel series!
Middle-Powered Campaigns: "The city is full of Level 1 Commoners, but that cleric makes a living raising people from the dead! Miracle? Nah, all high-ranking priests can do that!"
Low-Powered Campaigns: "You better not mess with that Elf Council Member in Sharn. What's his class and level, you say? He's a Level 17 Commoner, but his +28 to Profession (Dung Merchant) will run all the others out of business!"

High-Magic: "In Faerun, +2 Dwarven Waraxes with Caster Levels of 8 are mass produced by Dwarves, even though they're distrustful of Magic!"
Middle-Magic: A +1 Weapon or Armor is the most powerful magic on the open market of a typical town."
Low-Magic: "I don't care if Potions of Cure Critical Wounds will help us win the war, you're a witch and we'll burn you at the stake!"
So, does anyone have any suggestions to the Power/Magic Tone?
#2
awakenings
Aug 06, 2005 22:45:52 It depends upon the DM, but most play it Medium to Low, and most of the supplements agree.

Examples:
Players began to complain when a Gazetteer listed a few characters above 10th level!

Many RL DM's avoid handing out magic items that don't have a backstory ("There are no '+1 daggers' in my games, but take a look at Juliet, a dagger forged from fey-steel, carried by the captain of the city guard on Kantora.)

Likewise, many DM's boast (and players complain) about how many levels their groups advanced before finding a magic weapon, or even a silver one.
#3
solandras
Aug 07, 2005 10:31:40 Yeah Ravenloft in general is pretty low-powered and low magic....with some exception. A country called Hazlan actually has a mage school and allows people to learn how to do magic, create items, things like that. But since no many other countries have much magic, they trade that and get alot of money for it.

But really everything ends up being alot more difficult for the PC's because they lack the magic that normal DnD characters have. Such as in my group there isn't any cleric, the closest thing is the ranger. The best magic item they have is a +2 mithral armor from one of the elite mages of Hazlan and the average party level is 11
#4
Prof._Pacali
Aug 07, 2005 19:58:48 Magic is rarer in Ravenloft than in other campaign settings for a variety of reasons. In some parts of the Core (the main area of the demi-plane), science has advanced so far, that magic is seen as either an amusing pastime, or as superstitious nonsense. In other parts of the Core, arcane spellcasters are feared and persecuted, as are certain non-humans like elves and dwarves. Then there are places which are ruled by spellcasters, like Darkon and Hazlan, where arcane magic flourishes. What magic there is tends to be darker, especially necromancy, and summoning magic either doesn't work, or you regret it when it does.

There is no benevloent high-level arcane spellcaster, like Elminster or Mordenkainen. Most of the high-level spellcasters are evil, or the main villains of the campaign, called Darklords. Darklords secretly rulke a domain, and are granted special powers by the mysterious Dark Powers. The Dark Powers reward/punish use of evil magic, like necromancy, and disallow other types of magic, like planar travel. There are also a set of optional rules in the latest Ravenloft PHB, which call for these Dark Powers Checks for innocuous evocation spells like Tenser's Floating Disk, but most DMs ignore these rules.

Many of the magic items in Ravenloft are either cursed, or have some other drawback. Some, like the Alchemist's Apparatus, or the Timepiece of Klorr, mix technology and magic. The best magic to use in Ravenloft is subtle magic, although several published Ravenloft adventures have ignored that.

It is important to remember that when limiting the amount of magic, or alchemical silver, as noted by Awakenings, not to frustrate the players. If the PCs have to fight a werewolf, give them an oppurtunity to research their foe, and then try to find at least silver bullets.
#5
zombiegleemax
Aug 29, 2005 23:09:30 these are curious answers... i've been going back and forth on how ubiquitous i think magic should be for pc's in ravenloft. for those of you who believe in the extremely limited version (+2 mithral being the best a party's got by 11th level), how do you keep up gear with the party's effective level? i mean, if you throw a CR 13 monster at them, they could get creamed! the insignificance of PC power, especially PC wealth, is part of ravenloft, but it throws the gear/experience advancement thing a little out-of-whack. i guess you don't have to be as stringent with player advancement as the dmg would suggest, but if the toughest villian the pc's face has a cr equal to the character level, they're also going to advance slower than a lot of players expect. the exp. thing can be fixed ad hoc by the dm, but also, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. at some point, successful parties will end up destroying powerful villians, and get their loot. if you kill a lich, you might get a decent weapon for a rogue plus some awesome goodies for your spellcaster. how do you very low-magic dm's handle that? just to use the example (i'm not picking on you or anything, don't think that; i'm genuinely curious), is a +2 mithral shirt the best item worn by the npc's and monsters vanquished?

in preparing the campaign i want to run in a month or two, i've taken a different route, of including fewer, larger magic items instead of many smaller and more mundane items. also, my villians wield a lot more evil magic items that players must weigh the value of using versus repeated powers checks. i've also got a few cursed items lying around my dungeons, abandoned or left over from dead previous adventurers. the person who mentioned that dwarves in faerun still mass produce +2 waraxes even with their suspicion of magic reminds me of the fact that even back in 2nd ed, where dwarves couldn't be wizards or raise to a very high level in cleric, there were lots of dwarven magical items. that's because the explanation behind even a mundane magical item can (and often should) be legendary or supernatural. a +2 waraxe could be simply be the pride of a great dwarven smith before he bequeaths it to his son. a cursed spear, backbiter could have once been the mundane spear of a powerful warrior in ancient times who turned traitorous. in ravenloft, that might be the way the majority of the items my players find come into being, with more being like the latter. neither of those items had to be touched or mass produced by a wizard in any way. it twists the game rules, but i think it's fun and it fits (and is logically consistent with prior editions of dnd). to recap, i would think a ravenloft setting should never have magic items bought or sold, should have few but equivalently powerful magic items (no multiple magical mithral shirts so that the rogue and the ranger gets one and everyone's happy) so that players don't just get to sit around and stat-max their items, and should include lots of trade-off items like those of evil or cursed origin. does that sound about right, or does that still disrupt the feel of a magic-as-supernatural campaign?
#6
Prof._Pacali
Aug 30, 2005 19:23:36 The tricky part in Ravenloft is that you want to scare the players, but not frustrate them. In other campaigns, if a monster has DR, you might mention it ignores some of the damage. In RL mention how the monster shrugs off the damage, or how the wounds just seal up before their eyes. To make things easier for the players, don't require a magic item for any adventure, but be sure to account for any magic they may have, like anything that makes them ethereal or fly. A monster with DR xx/magic can be defeated by judicious use of the magic weapon spell, so allow smart PCs to research their foes. That might be half of an adventure, whether its finding an old library or book shop, or consulting the Vistani (a group of gypsies who are knowledgeable about magic and mysticism). Of course there should always be a price for using dangerous magic, so let the players know about DP checks, or the possibility of curses.

A good idea is to give most magic items a history, even a +1 dagger. That dagger might have been used by a legendary assassin, or was the early work of a master item crafter. Also, judicious uses of curses can make an item memorable. In RL cursed items don't have to be fatal, the curse can be embarrassing (see the RLPHB for details on curses) so the PCs might have to decide whether they want the +3 dwarven waraxe, if it makes them occaissionally start singing in dwarven. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 06, 2005 19:07:13	I want to know whether the setting is crawling with High-level NPCs akin to a High-powered/magic Campaign like Forgotten Realms, or is the setting more realistic like d20 Modern in a low power/magic tone? High Powered Campaigns: "You're team is comprised of 30th level characters in need of a good adventure? That CR 39 Wizard named Elminster could help you? He lives in a silo in some village called Shadowdale with nothing better to do than read his favorite novel series! Middle-Powered Campaigns: "The city is full of Level 1 Commoners, but that cleric makes a living raising people from the dead! Miracle? Nah, all high-ranking priests can do that!" Low-Powered Campaigns: "You better not mess with that Elf Council Member in Sharn. What's his class and level, you say? He's a Level 17 Commoner, but his +28 to Profession (Dung Merchant) will run all the others out of business!" High-Magic: "In Faerun, +2 Dwarven Waraxes with Caster Levels of 8 are mass produced by Dwarves, even though they're distrustful of Magic!" Middle-Magic: A +1 Weapon or Armor is the most powerful magic on the open market of a typical town." Low-Magic: "I don't care if Potions of Cure Critical Wounds will help us win the war, you're a witch and we'll burn you at the stake!" So, does anyone have any suggestions to the Power/Magic Tone?
#2 awakenings Aug 06, 2005 22:45:52	It depends upon the DM, but most play it Medium to Low, and most of the supplements agree. Examples: Players began to complain when a Gazetteer listed a few characters above 10th level! Many RL DM's avoid handing out magic items that don't have a backstory ("There are no '+1 daggers' in my games, but take a look at Juliet, a dagger forged from fey-steel, carried by the captain of the city guard on Kantora.) Likewise, many DM's boast (and players complain) about how many levels their groups advanced before finding a magic weapon, or even a silver one.
#3 solandras Aug 07, 2005 10:31:40	Yeah Ravenloft in general is pretty low-powered and low magic....with some exception. A country called Hazlan actually has a mage school and allows people to learn how to do magic, create items, things like that. But since no many other countries have much magic, they trade that and get alot of money for it. But really everything ends up being alot more difficult for the PC's because they lack the magic that normal DnD characters have. Such as in my group there isn't any cleric, the closest thing is the ranger. The best magic item they have is a +2 mithral armor from one of the elite mages of Hazlan and the average party level is 11
#4 Prof._Pacali Aug 07, 2005 19:58:48	Magic is rarer in Ravenloft than in other campaign settings for a variety of reasons. In some parts of the Core (the main area of the demi-plane), science has advanced so far, that magic is seen as either an amusing pastime, or as superstitious nonsense. In other parts of the Core, arcane spellcasters are feared and persecuted, as are certain non-humans like elves and dwarves. Then there are places which are ruled by spellcasters, like Darkon and Hazlan, where arcane magic flourishes. What magic there is tends to be darker, especially necromancy, and summoning magic either doesn't work, or you regret it when it does. There is no benevloent high-level arcane spellcaster, like Elminster or Mordenkainen. Most of the high-level spellcasters are evil, or the main villains of the campaign, called Darklords. Darklords secretly rulke a domain, and are granted special powers by the mysterious Dark Powers. The Dark Powers reward/punish use of evil magic, like necromancy, and disallow other types of magic, like planar travel. There are also a set of optional rules in the latest Ravenloft PHB, which call for these Dark Powers Checks for innocuous evocation spells like Tenser's Floating Disk, but most DMs ignore these rules. Many of the magic items in Ravenloft are either cursed, or have some other drawback. Some, like the Alchemist's Apparatus, or the Timepiece of Klorr, mix technology and magic. The best magic to use in Ravenloft is subtle magic, although several published Ravenloft adventures have ignored that. It is important to remember that when limiting the amount of magic, or alchemical silver, as noted by Awakenings, not to frustrate the players. If the PCs have to fight a werewolf, give them an oppurtunity to research their foe, and then try to find at least silver bullets.
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 29, 2005 23:09:30	these are curious answers... i've been going back and forth on how ubiquitous i think magic should be for pc's in ravenloft. for those of you who believe in the extremely limited version (+2 mithral being the best a party's got by 11th level), how do you keep up gear with the party's effective level? i mean, if you throw a CR 13 monster at them, they could get creamed! the insignificance of PC power, especially PC wealth, is part of ravenloft, but it throws the gear/experience advancement thing a little out-of-whack. i guess you don't have to be as stringent with player advancement as the dmg would suggest, but if the toughest villian the pc's face has a cr equal to the character level, they're also going to advance slower than a lot of players expect. the exp. thing can be fixed ad hoc by the dm, but also, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. at some point, successful parties will end up destroying powerful villians, and get their loot. if you kill a lich, you might get a decent weapon for a rogue plus some awesome goodies for your spellcaster. how do you very low-magic dm's handle that? just to use the example (i'm not picking on you or anything, don't think that; i'm genuinely curious), is a +2 mithral shirt the best item worn by the npc's and monsters vanquished? in preparing the campaign i want to run in a month or two, i've taken a different route, of including fewer, larger magic items instead of many smaller and more mundane items. also, my villians wield a lot more evil magic items that players must weigh the value of using versus repeated powers checks. i've also got a few cursed items lying around my dungeons, abandoned or left over from dead previous adventurers. the person who mentioned that dwarves in faerun still mass produce +2 waraxes even with their suspicion of magic reminds me of the fact that even back in 2nd ed, where dwarves couldn't be wizards or raise to a very high level in cleric, there were lots of dwarven magical items. that's because the explanation behind even a mundane magical item can (and often should) be legendary or supernatural. a +2 waraxe could be simply be the pride of a great dwarven smith before he bequeaths it to his son. a cursed spear, backbiter could have once been the mundane spear of a powerful warrior in ancient times who turned traitorous. in ravenloft, that might be the way the majority of the items my players find come into being, with more being like the latter. neither of those items had to be touched or mass produced by a wizard in any way. it twists the game rules, but i think it's fun and it fits (and is logically consistent with prior editions of dnd). to recap, i would think a ravenloft setting should never have magic items bought or sold, should have few but equivalently powerful magic items (no multiple magical mithral shirts so that the rogue and the ranger gets one and everyone's happy) so that players don't just get to sit around and stat-max their items, and should include lots of trade-off items like those of evil or cursed origin. does that sound about right, or does that still disrupt the feel of a magic-as-supernatural campaign?
#6 Prof._Pacali Aug 30, 2005 19:23:36	The tricky part in Ravenloft is that you want to scare the players, but not frustrate them. In other campaigns, if a monster has DR, you might mention it ignores some of the damage. In RL mention how the monster shrugs off the damage, or how the wounds just seal up before their eyes. To make things easier for the players, don't require a magic item for any adventure, but be sure to account for any magic they may have, like anything that makes them ethereal or fly. A monster with DR xx/magic can be defeated by judicious use of the magic weapon spell, so allow smart PCs to research their foes. That might be half of an adventure, whether its finding an old library or book shop, or consulting the Vistani (a group of gypsies who are knowledgeable about magic and mysticism). Of course there should always be a price for using dangerous magic, so let the players know about DP checks, or the possibility of curses. A good idea is to give most magic items a history, even a +1 dagger. That dagger might have been used by a legendary assassin, or was the early work of a master item crafter. Also, judicious uses of curses can make an item memorable. In RL cursed items don't have to be fatal, the curse can be embarrassing (see the RLPHB for details on curses) so the PCs might have to decide whether they want the +3 dwarven waraxe, if it makes them occaissionally start singing in dwarven. ;)