I just finished reading Dragonmage of Mystara, and there are a number of things I'd like to discuss about the trilogy now that I've finished it. It would be very nice to hear what all you guys thought about the books, too, so please feel free to chip in.
Overall: the trilogy was reasonably good, though it had rather a lot of problems, both from a story point of view as well as in regards to the Mystara setting. It started out reasonably well, dealing with the Known World quite reasonably, and did a not bad job of portraying the countries. But as things proceeded, it seemed to move further and further from Mystara, as if the setting was good enough for a background, but not for the backbone of the plot. The writer grafted on piece after piece of semi-inconsistent revelations, with the end result being a story which doesn't quite fit with Mystara as most of us know it, or perhaps an alternate version, shaped by the whims of the author.
Setting Problems
- The Eldar
This race of ancient elves is all very well, but it seemed awfully like the author had just inserted Tolkien's elves into Mystara. The fact that they were almost totally unknown to the whole world, even the elves, was a little bit beyond belief as far as I was concerned. - The Creation Myth for Elves and Dragons
This was acknowledged to be controversial even within the story itself, although after its introduction it is basically relied upon as fact for the rest of the story. I'm sure some people like the connection between the elves and the dragons, but again I couldn't help but feel that it's somehow not very Mystaran... - Son of the Great One, the Hidden Path, etc.
This was one of the weakest parts of the novel, I thought, because it essentially served as a plot device to allow the main character to get to Immortality - and that's all. What's more, the actual path was ignored, with Thelvyn completing only the very first part of the path to Immortality - all he had to do was the requesting a sponsor part, and then suddenly he was Immortal. It seemed to me that the author either didn't understand the Immortal paths properly, or else he just decided to go his own way. Either way, it seemed a bit too easy for Thelvyn to become Diamond.
Then there's the whole issue with the Great One "renouncing his Immortality for a time" so that he could have a son. That in itself is pretty strange. But then somehow Thelvyn gets semi-Immortal (Exalted?) powers from being the "son of an Immortal" - even though his father was technically mortal when he was conceived?! It's all more than a bit strange. Again, the author saw a rule and contrived a way to get round it, betraying the spirit of the rules, in my opinion.
On the other hand, it was interesting to read the process of him becoming an Immortal, getting a home plane, etc. Even if that too wasn't quite done exactly according to the rules. - Loose ends
What was the deal with Korinn and the kingship of Rockhome?
What is the relationship between Darius Glantri and Alexander Glantri?
More as I remember it...
Overall I do agree with what you've said. In fact, I recently reread them myself with the intention of passing them on to a player in my group who's playing a black half dragon from Wyrmsteeth - but felt the books give such a false idea of Mystara that I didn't bother in the end.
I think it's fairly well 'known' that books do deviate from canon.
If I had the Eldar IMC I would probably treat them as Faedorne or even as High Elves as the Elves IMC are either Wild, Wood, or Shadow.
I'd ignore the creation myth or have it as just that... a myth.
The hidden path was far too easy.
Thats all for now
Gary
The Eldar
This race of ancient elves is all very well, but it seemed awfully like the author had just inserted Tolkien's elves into Mystara. The fact that they were almost totally unknown to the whole world, even the elves, was a little bit beyond belief as far as I was concerned.
As Gazza555 points out, I'd just consider the Eldar to be some distant relative of elves that we already know about- the Faedorne, perhaps, or something, and their origins (aren't they extraterrestrials?) to be apocryphal at best. I agree that the Eldar thing was kind of "eh"; I immediately thought of Warhammer when I read that, which strikes me as not very Mystaran.
On the Immortality thing, I always consider that the paths to Immortality in the Cyclopedia are not "hard and fast" rules to Immortality, but the generally accepted ways of doing things, and even still, they are broadly defined enough so that some leeway can be taken with them. That being said, I don't recall exactly what happens with Thelvyn's path to Immortality, so don't know if it's even loosely similar enough that it is a viable one.
Loose ends
What was the deal with Korinn and the kingship of Rockhome?
Not sure what you mean. I don't think he became king during the trilogy, at least not unless I missed something. I know that he is the younger son of the current king, but (IIRC) his elder brother was crippled or killed or something, and it seemed as if he was the chosen successor to the throne. There is an article at the Vaults- Timeline of Dwarven Kings- by Giulio Caroletti that was done with some help from those of us on the MML where he has included Korinn as one of the dwarven kings (Styrklint I).
What is the relationship between Darius Glantri and Alexander Glantri?
I don't think it is ever spelled out, and, IIRC, Darius Glantri returns to Thyatis rather than remaining in Braejr. I would assume that Darius is a great-grandfather or something, but couldn't say what the intent was. Harri Maki incorporates the legend of Darius into his History of House Glantri.
Some other things off the top of my head- the Republic of Darokin wasn't yet the Republic of Darokin, so Sir George claiming to be from there was odd. The gnomes of Torkyn Falls have pretty much been vanished from the annals of Mystaran history- they were incorporated into a recent Mystaran Almanac, though.
The Blackmoor outpost that is hidden in the Soderfjord Jarldoms in the books seems like it fits well with the description of Druuwmor's realm (from Who's Who Among Dragons by Bruce Heard.
Regards,
Gary
As Gazza555 points out, I'd just consider the Eldar to be some distant relative of elves that we already know about- the Faedorne, perhaps, or something, and their origins (aren't they extraterrestrials?) to be apocryphal at best. I agree that the Eldar thing was kind of "eh"; I immediately thought of Warhammer when I read that, which strikes me as not very Mystaran.
Hmm, this has got me thinking: what exactly do we know about the origins of the elves? What relationship do the Faedorne have to the elves? Weren't they introduced in Blade of Vengeance?
By the way, I don't think the Eldar were claimed to be extraterrestrial. They were simply the original race of elves. It seems that they would fit into the current elven history at the very beginning, during the time they were shielded from the world by Ordana. (Assuming I'm remembering this right.) Then they eventually "evolve" into the gemstone dragons, the dragons, and modern elves, leaving only a small number of unevolved Eldar behind.
Also, although I get the Warhammer 40K reference, the only similarity there is the name, I would say. The Dragonlord Trilogy Eldar are much more similar to Tolkien's elves, who are also of course referred to as the Eldar.
On the Immortality thing, I always consider that the paths to Immortality in the Cyclopedia are not "hard and fast" rules to Immortality, but the generally accepted ways of doing things, and even still, they are broadly defined enough so that some leeway can be taken with them. That being said, I don't recall exactly what happens with Thelvyn's path to Immortality, so don't know if it's even loosely similar enough that it is a viable one.
I agree, and I'm open to see new paths to Immortality. But the so-called Hidden Path is not so much a path as a plot device, I'm afraid. Thelvyn goes through the stage of petitioning his sponsor, then suddenly becomes Immortal - that's all. The description follows closely the description for the petition (the 7 tasks, the gift, etc.), but it has become the whole process, rather than just the first step.
(About Korinn)... Not sure what you mean. I don't think he became king during the trilogy, at least not unless I missed something. I know that he is the younger son of the current king, but (IIRC) his elder brother was crippled or killed or something, and it seemed as if he was the chosen successor to the throne. There is an article at the Vaults- Timeline of Dwarven Kings- by Giulio Caroletti that was done with some help from those of us on the MML where he has included Korinn as one of the dwarven kings (Styrklint I).
What I was referring to is the side story based around Korinn and the kingship. Korinn's father, King Daroban, had failing health, and if he died before Korinn could come of age, the kingship would most likely pass to another clan (the Everasts). Then there was the issue of his brother, Dorinn, who had been injured but seemed to be overcoming his injuries towards the end of the trilogy. My point was that it's disappointing that this thread was left hanging, when it could easily have been wrapped up at the end of the books.
Thanks for the link, though. Interesting to see that Giulio integrated some of the names, although he seems to have changed things around a bit from the way they were presented in the books (i.e. Korinn doesn't follow Daroban as king).
I don't think it is ever spelled out, and, IIRC, Darius Glantri returns to Thyatis rather than remaining in Braejr. I would assume that Darius is a great-grandfather or something, but couldn't say what the intent was. Harri Maki incorporates the legend of Darius into his History of House Glantri.
Darius marries Solveig, and they do eventually return to Thyatis, after staying in the Highlands for a while. That much was said. But again it might have been nice to have a little bit more of a hint. Once again, the author missed the opportunity to insert a little bit more Mystara feeling into his work.
Some other things off the top of my head- the Republic of Darokin wasn't yet the Republic of Darokin, so Sir George claiming to be from there was odd. The gnomes of Torkyn Falls have pretty much been vanished from the annals of Mystaran history- they were incorporated into a recent Mystaran Almanac, though.
I can't really remember the history of Darokin very well, but I don't think it was ever actually referred to as a republic in the trilogy - just as "Darokin". I don't know if that matters, though.
The Blackmoor outpost that is hidden in the Soderfjord Jarldoms in the books seems like it fits well with the description of Druuwmor's realm (from Who's Who Among Dragons by Bruce Heard.
Actually, I felt very much that the author had a thing about Blackmoor, and he seemed to mention it at every possible opportunity - almost as if it's the only vanished ancient culture that could have left ruins and artifacts.
It seems a little strange that Darmouk should remain hidden for so long, though. Especially when it seems it was so big. I guess the presence of all the renegade dragons could explain that quite well, though.
Anyway, wasn't Darmouk an ancient dwarven stronghold? I just searched out the reference - Dragonking of Mystara, p. 153. It was apparently the last surviving city of the dwarves before the destruction of Blackmoor. So I guess that means that it was originally an outpost of the Kogolor Dwarves, and they were presumably either killed during the collapse of the city during the Rain of Fire (although the cavern itself remained mostly intact), or whisked away to the Hollow World by Kagyar. This does kinda conflict with the Kogolor Dwarves not living below ground, though...
But anyway I agree that it could easily be adapted to be Druuwmor's realm.
I knew they mentioned Eldar as ancestors of both elves and dragons, but didn't know it meant the Eldars evolved into BOTH elves and dragons! A bit strange... like saying humans evolve into superhumans and dragons...hum.. wait, that's DARK SUN! :P
Anyway, I think you'd better consider the eldars' myth just a way of "mudding the waters" so to speak. I may even start to consider the fact these eldars may be disguised dragons... ;)
FWIW: it's IMPOSSIBLE for an immortal to renounce his immortality "temporary". It's like saying you renounce temporary to your heart. you die, flat and simple.
Immortals who renounce to immortality become mortals once and for all. What may have happened is the Great Dragon becoming mortal to wed this female he really was in love with (but it must have been a really GREAT feeling), then starting again the path towards immortality and becoming for the second time the Great Dragon. This would make him a good candidate to become Old One, but I don't think it's the case, since his bio says he became immortal "when dragons did not have colours and his skin was greyish".
So it's just plain silly. Let's just imagine that he reincarnated the soul of the former Sun Dragon or one of his beloved sons (even if they're immortals, they can still sire children, but they are normal mortals) into Thelvyn as a newborn, and leave that be.
PS: IMO Faedorne were the "nature spirits" who were given by Ordana the task of guarding the elves during the first centuries of their lives. They lived on the Shining Isles, which may be some outer planes, or part of the dimension where the fey races go from time to time (remember Haven and the Dreamlands?), or simply floating islands of the Sky Kingdom, as you like.
After they matured and were judged ready to earn their place in the world, the faedorne left them in different places of Mystara (not just in Evergrun) to evolve, and always kept distant contacts with them.
Also, the Great One isn't really a good candidate for becoming an Old One, because he didn't reincarnate himself, he just became mortal again. And he seems to have become Immortal again almost automatically, it seemed like it was just a matter of time.
It just doesn't make sense at all, and therefore should be ignored totally. ;)
By the way, I can't find any official information on Immortals and procreation, but I would be tempted to agree that Immortals can certainly have children, who are always ordinary mortals. (Although the idea of Heroes as in Greek Myths would make for a fun campaign, I wouldn't want to have it in Mystara otherwise.)
Also, the Great One isn't really a good candidate for becoming an Old One, because he didn't reincarnate himself, he just became mortal again. And he seems to have become Immortal again almost automatically, it seemed like it was just a matter of time.
I know this contradicts the novels but maybe the Great One didn't become mortal - he just assumed his Mortal Indentity/Form (or whatever then term is), was somehow killed, and then had to spend time on his home plane recuperating.
Regards,
Gary
Hmm, this has got me thinking: what exactly do we know about the origins of the elves? What relationship do the Faedorne have to the elves? Weren't they introduced in Blade of Vengeance?
Yes they were, and IIRC, that's the only place they've ever appeared. There isn't much info on them other than they are distant relatives of the elves who live on the Shining Isles far above the planet and keep a watch on them.
By the way, I don't think the Eldar were claimed to be extraterrestrial. They were simply the original race of elves.
The Eldar/Warhammer thing may have been where I got that. Whoops!
My point was that it's disappointing that this thread was left hanging, when it could easily have been wrapped up at the end of the books.
I see. I had completely forgotten about that- probably because I haven't finished DMoM yet, and assumed it was cleared up there. Too bad to see it wasn't.
Thanks for the link, though. Interesting to see that Giulio integrated some of the names, although he seems to have changed things around a bit from the way they were presented in the books (i.e. Korinn doesn't follow Daroban as king).
He does, but he changes his name to Styrklint I (right after Daroban V, who is the king in the books).
[b]
Overall: the trilogy was reasonably good, though it had rather a lot of problems, both from a story point of view as well as in regards to the Mystara setting. It started out reasonably well, dealing with the Known World quite reasonably, and did a not bad job of portraying the countries. But as things proceeded, it seemed to move further and further from Mystara, as if the setting was good enough for a background, but not for the backbone of the plot. The writer grafted on piece after piece of semi-inconsistent revelations, with the end result being a story which doesn't quite fit with Mystara as most of us know it, or perhaps an alternate version, shaped by the whims of the author.
I agree pretty much with your assessment of the trilogy. Remember that when they came out, the only other Mystara novels available were the Penhaligon trilogy, which made the DL Trilogy fit extremely well into the setting by comparison. Im not sure, but it seems to me that you are suggesting that we go through the story finding out which elements can be used with Mystara and which might have to be discarded. I think that is a very good idea.
[*]The Eldar
This race of ancient elves is all very well, but it seemed awfully like the author had just inserted Tolkien's elves into Mystara. The fact that they were almost totally unknown to the whole world, even the elves, was a little bit beyond belief as far as I was concerned.
I like some of the things that have been suggested in this thread, perhaps the Faedorne link. As for hailing from outer space, I suggested something similar in the MSpace Project Marco (DM) and I were involved with about 4 years ago: The Eldar were in fact not true ancestors of the elves or dragons, but a shape changing race. Originally, they could take many forms, but eventually settled on those of the races they lived among: Elves and Dragons. Interbreeding with these two races, the Eldar eventually created the myth that they were the ancestors of both races.
[*]The Creation Myth for Elves and Dragons
This was acknowledged to be controversial even within the story itself, although after its introduction it is basically relied upon as fact for the rest of the story. I'm sure some people like the connection between the elves and the dragons, but again I couldn't help but feel that it's somehow not very Mystaran...
It never sat well with me either. Either we could use the explaination I offered above, or we could simply assume that it is a myth, perhaps the basis of a dragon worshipping cult among the elves, one that is probably encouraged by many dragons, who may or may not belive in it themselves. If using 3E, this could also explain elven sorcerers...
[*]Son of the Great One, the Hidden Path, etc.
This was one of the weakest parts of the novel, I thought, because it essentially served as a plot device to allow the main character to get to Immortality - and that's all. What's more, the actual path was ignored, with Thelvyn completing only the very first part of the path to Immortality - all he had to do was the requesting a sponsor part, and then suddenly he was Immortal. It seemed to me that the author either didn't understand the Immortal paths properly, or else he just decided to go his own way. Either way, it seemed a bit too easy for Thelvyn to become Diamond.
Then there's the whole issue with the Great One "renouncing his Immortality for a time" so that he could have a son. That in itself is pretty strange. But then somehow Thelvyn gets semi-Immortal (Exalted?) powers from being the "son of an Immortal" - even though his father was technically mortal when he was conceived?! It's all more than a bit strange. Again, the author saw a rule and contrived a way to get round it, betraying the spirit of the rules, in my opinion.
On the other hand, it was interesting to read the process of him becoming an Immortal, getting a home plane, etc. Even if that too wasn't quite done exactly according to the rules.
I was never very happy with the rules of achieving Immortality in the first place. That said, I always assumed that all of the achievements Thelvyn accomplished during the events of the Trilogy were part of his quest. I'd have to look more into it to see if it fits with any of the paths though.
From what others have said on the "giving up his mortality" part, I agree that this should be considered creative lisence or simply ignored. Immortals can have children with mortals no problem. There is an optional rule allowing these children to become Demigods as well in WotI BTW...
Also: WotI states that the current Great Dragon is not the first Great Dragon to have existed on Mystara. I would extrapolate on that saying that Thelvyn and the others were also not the first Dragon Rulers of this world, though Thelvyn was the first Dragon Ruler under the current Great Dragon. Thelvyn is also the Diamond Dragon that was later defeated by Prince Jaggar when the prince became the High Master of Dracology.
More as I remember it...
The one other idea that interested me was the story of Sir George and the Knights of Darokin... Any good explainations to that one?
Oh yeas and about the Blackmoor Outpost: What exactly is revealed of its whereabouts? Its been years since I read the novels...
Håvard
From what others have said on the "giving up his mortality" part, I agree that this should be considered creative lisence or simply ignored. Immortals can have children with mortals no problem. There is an optional rule allowing these children to become Demigods as well in WotI BTW...
Come to think of it, there is an NPC in HWQ1: The Milenian Scepter that is the daughter of an Immortal (Zargos, IIRC, one of Nyx' identities) and she has some special powers/abilities beyond those of "mere" mortals.
The Eldar was originally the name of the first generation of elves created by the Immortal Ordana. However, it later came to be identified with a group of these ancient elves who early on abandoned the worship of their creator and sought out the patronhood of the majestic creatures who settled to the north of the elven realms, the Mighty Dragons of the Golden Empire.
Many of the elves learned the ability to take the shape of Dragons and live among them, and the Cult of Dragons was formed. The Dragons themselves also took elven form, and some even interbred with the elves, giving birth to a number of half-dragons. As generations passed, a legend grew that the Eldar were in fact not elves, but a race that was ancestors to both elves and Dragons. This belief is most strongly upheld by the Cult of Dragons, found both among elves which honors the Dragon Rulers, and considers all Dragons holy messengers of the Immortals. The Cult of Dragons is still found in most elven lands, including Alfheim (Pre WotI) and Wendar.
Håvard
I was never very happy with the rules of achieving Immortality in the first place. That said, I always assumed that all of the achievements Thelvyn accomplished during the events of the Trilogy were part of his quest. I'd have to look more into it to see if it fits with any of the paths though.
I have to say, the Path of the Polymath was always my least favorite--it seems so utterly unworkable in game terms. One thing to note, however, is that there is no real record of which I am aware that indicates a current immortal actually completed the Path of the Polymath, as laid out in the rules. I think, at the very least, a little bit of tinkering seems to be in order.
Revising the Path of the Polymath slightly seems to grant the appearance that both Thelvyn and Atruaghuin actually completed this path. Atruaghuin was a hero, a Priest-King, an exile, a wanderer, a peacemaker, a militant, and a protector. Thelvyn, as I recall, was a boy, an adventurer, a warrior, the Dragonlord, a dragon, and a mage. The whole memory-wipe thing with an artificially-hidden artifact seems like a big hassle for the sponsoring immortal--who wants to go to that much effort? But forcing a prospective immortal to experience life from various points of view, as happened to Thelvyn and Atruaghuin, seems like an excellent strategy for ensuring quality immortals.
Now, one other thing that bothers me is that we have at least three different published explanations of who Diamond is: Thelvyn, Jaggar, and the Diamond of WotI. If we are to assume that this sort of turnover is natural among dragon rulers, then it would seem that attaining immortality actually shortens the lives of dragons. Of course, if Jaggar were actually immortal, I hardly think that Synn would ensnare him so easily...
IRevising the Path of the Polymath slightly seems to grant the appearance that both Thelvyn and Atruaghuin actually completed this path. Atruaghuin was a hero, a Priest-King, an exile, a wanderer, a peacemaker, a militant, and a protector. Thelvyn, as I recall, was a boy, an adventurer, a warrior, the Dragonlord, a dragon, and a mage. The whole memory-wipe thing with an artificially-hidden artifact seems like a big hassle for the sponsoring immortal--who wants to go to that much effort? But forcing a prospective immortal to experience life from various points of view, as happened to Thelvyn and Atruaghuin, seems like an excellent strategy for ensuring quality immortals.
This is a pretty cool idea actually
By the way, it would be interesting to make a list of which paths each Immortal chose. It seems unlikely that most immortals chose the path that is most closely linked to their sphere. Something to be more closely examined I think...
Now, one other thing that bothers me is that we have at least three different published explanations of who Diamond is: Thelvyn, Jaggar, and the Diamond of WotI. If we are to assume that this sort of turnover is natural among dragon rulers, then it would seem that attaining immortality actually shortens the lives of dragons. Of course, if Jaggar were actually immortal, I hardly think that Synn would ensnare him so easily...
Well, even Bruce stated that Jaggar is actually not Diamond. The officially revisioned version (from Dragon Mag anyway) is that Jaggar defeated Diamond, but allowed him to live once he realized what the deal was, and thus gave up his chance at Immortality. Quite noble of him. I guess that means Diamond owes him a favor though, which is a pretty nice thing to have up your sleave.
My guess is that Thelvyn and WotI Diamond are the same one. I gotta reread the writeup of Diamond, but I think they more or less fit.
Thelvyn is said to be the first of the Dragon Rulers. I suspect that there had been others in the past, but that the line of rulers, and the Ceremony of Sublimination had been disrupted for some time before The Great One took matters into his own hands and aided the creation/ascention of the new generation of Dragon Rulers, which I believe are also the current ones.
Thoughts?
Håvard
This is a pretty cool idea actually
By the way, it would be interesting to make a list of which paths each Immortal chose. It seems unlikely that most immortals chose the path that is most closely linked to their sphere. Something to be more closely examined I think...
Thanks! Based on what I remember of WotI, I don't recall seeing complete details of any particular path taken to immortality. A few points spring to mind, however:
1) the petition is not really required (cf. Yav, Khoronus, et al.)
2) a significant number of immortals cannot remember their mortal lives (cf. Hel, Odin, et al.) or attained immortality before there were clear-cut rules (cf. Terra).
3) we have three well-established exceptions: Rad, Rafiel, and Benekander.
4) of the immortal paths, only the dynast seems regularly described in significant detail: Al-Kalim, Calitha, Yav, and Liena pretty clearly followed the path of the dynast; Vanya and Petra were certainly in a position to have completed this path, and it seems likely though we don't get the details.
5) Most of the immortals from energy and thought that don't fall into categories 2 or 3 seem reasonably likely to have completed the paths of the epic hero or paragon.
6) There are at least a few immortals who certainly do not seem to fit any of the templates--Protius and The Twelve Watchers come to mind.
7) The continuing efforts of other immortals to convince Loki to reform seem adequate evidence to assume that paths do not lead to a hardwired sphere--why would so many fall for Loki's charade if there was no real hope?
Based on all this, I'm tempted to conclude that the Paths are nothing more than the tool currently popular among immortals. There is nothing except the reaction of other immortals and the 100 pp cost per immortal preventing immortals from granting immortality to whomever they would like. The established Paths are passed on from patron to initiate, as the more experienced immortal explains how to determine whether others are worthy of sponsoring. In some, ways, then, the Paths become yet another control method used to maintain the status quo in Pandius.
I would argue that, regardless of the sphere that an individual seeks immortality in, the sponsor (aka the DM) should use something like a curriculum development model to establish the various tasks: the basic outline is 1) identify objectives; 2) establish performance-based assessments; and 3) design learning opportunities along the way. Following this model, we get the following:
1)Immortals of Matter must have the ability to sympathize and empathize with others
2)The Polymath shall live and succeed in the lives of others to understand their points of view (Quest and Task)
3)The patron will not randomly select the Polymath's reincarnations, but will choose according to need: a boorish man may well have to live the life of a scullery maid
In a more general application, an immortal might try to determine the sort of task to set his/her supplicant:
1)The candidate needs to lose the silly notion that appearance is all that really matters
2)The candidate shall recover an artifact by consistently placing truth ahead of appearance
3)The patron will send the candidate through B8: Journey to the Rock, with an artifact hidden at the end
Basically, what this means is that a patron will test the candidate for immortality in whatever method seems most appropriate. If an immortal is willing to spend 100 pp to grant immortality to his/her idiot offspring, then so be it. The good news for DMs at this end is that players who are rules lawyers are SOL--either the immortal thinks your worthy or not, and arguing points of the rules is not going to do anyone any good.
Well, even Bruce stated that Jaggar is actually not Diamond. The officially revisioned version (from Dragon Mag anyway) is that Jaggar defeated Diamond, but allowed him to live once he realized what the deal was, and thus gave up his chance at Immortality. Quite noble of him. I guess that means Diamond owes him a favor though, which is a pretty nice thing to have up your sleave.
My guess is that Thelvyn and WotI Diamond are the same one. I gotta reread the writeup of Diamond, but I think they more or less fit.
Thelvyn is said to be the first of the Dragon Rulers. I suspect that there had been others in the past, but that the line of rulers, and the Ceremony of Sublimination had been disrupted for some time before The Great One took matters into his own hands and aided the creation/ascention of the new generation of Dragon Rulers, which I believe are also the current ones.
Thoughts?
Håvard
I did not see that Dragon article, but I prefer Bruce's explanation (which jives much better with G:KoM and the Almanacs). I'm not all that crazy about requiring immortal dragons to kill one another to gain their spots, but I suppose that is neither here nor there.
Håvard, I like your interpretation of the Dragon Rulers. While WotI's and Dragonlord's explanations of Diamond do contradict one another, I tend to support the idea of taking the best elements from both and discarding the rest. I think the explanations of Opal and Pearl in WotI are perfectly good and fit with your hypothesis of a new generation of Dragon Rulers.
To outline, as I recall, the elements of Thelvyn's path that at least more or less parallel the Path of the Polymath:
Quest and Task: 1) frightened boy quests for (bogus) artifact of entropy; 2) fledgling warrior quests for Dragonlord armor; 3) draconic wizard quests for Collar.
Testimony: Thelvyn adventured with a cleric (whatshername the dragon), a fighter (Solveig), a mage (started with a P I think...), a dwarf (you know the one), and a rogue (Sir George). While many of them started at higher levels than Thelvyn, it is already said that this is at DM discretion--if we take this to mean sponsor discretion, this is just The Great One showing a bit of favoritism. I don't remember the monument bit being satisfied at all, but it is a bit egotistical, isn't it?
Trial: Now combining powers of fighter, mage, cleric, dragon, and human, Thelvyn completes various adventures--it seems like maybe enough to reach 12th level?
So, it's a stretch to say that Thelvyn really followed even the outline of the path of the polymath, but it might be enough of a near attempt so that, if the Great One ever needs to justify his sponsorship to someone, he can list all Thelvyn's accomplishments to avoid trouble.
Thoughts?
edited 9/4/05: magazines come in articles, not episodes... d'oh!
Based on all this, I'm tempted to conclude that the Paths are nothing more than the tool currently popular among immortals. There is nothing except the reaction of other immortals and the 100 pp cost per immortal preventing immortals from granting immortality to whomever they would like. The established Paths are passed on from patron to initiate, as the more experienced immortal explains how to determine whether others are worthy of sponsoring. In some, ways, then, the Paths become yet another control method used to maintain the status quo in Pandius.
This makes me wonder whether the paths are just a matter of making the other Immortals consider the candidate worthy, or whether there are other energies involved. Perhaps great actions of some kind or other generate some sort of mystical energy in themselves that are required to make it possible for the immortals to alleviate a mortal to their own rank?
The Radience candidates are obviously an exception as usual, but they did get their energy from elsewhere.
However, again the paths are simply ritualized possibilities, while many other Paths exist, many are even unique for that individual and impossible to copy by others...
I like your thoughts on this though. It makes alot of sense IMHO.
I did not see that Dragon article, but I prefer Bruce's explanation (which jives much better with G:KoM and the Almanacs). I'm not all that crazy about requiring immortal dragons to kill one another to gain their spots, but I suppose that is neither here nor there.
AFAIK the killing of the existing ruler is only required by Dracologists, not Dragons in general. Not sure how new dragons can replace the existing Dragon Rulers though, but it may involve the same thing. Again, death may not be required; less extreme forms of duels may be involved and a wise loser will simply decide to step down to his superior.
Håvard, I like your interpretation of the Dragon Rulers. While WotI's and Dragonlord's explanations of Diamond do contradict one another, I tend to support the idea of taking the best elements from both and discarding the rest. I think the explanations of Opal and Pearl in WotI are perfectly good and fit with your hypothesis of a new generation of Dragon Rulers.
Yep. This is my thought as well. Dragonlord mentions that Chaotic and Neutral Rulers will be created later on, but reveals nothing more which should work well with WotI's outline of Opal and Pearl.
To outline, as I recall, the elements of Thelvyn's path that at least more or less parallel the Path of the Polymath:
So, it's a stretch to say that Thelvyn really followed even the outline of the path of the polymath, but it might be enough of a near attempt so that, if the Great One ever needs to justify his sponsorship to someone, he can list all Thelvyn's accomplishments to avoid trouble.
Thoughts?
This makes alot of sense to me!
By the way, all of this should probably have been mentioned in DM's Immortal thread as well, but hopefully people read both!
Håvard
AFAIK the killing of the existing ruler is only required by Dracologists, not Dragons in general. Not sure how new dragons can replace the existing Dragon Rulers though, but it may involve the same thing. Again, death may not be required; less extreme forms of duels may be involved and a wise loser will simply decide to step down to his superior.
We seem to be thinking in parallel paths
As for replacing Dragon Rulers, WotI's description of The Great one says this: ...there have been other Immortal dragons before him, with one Dragon-Lord bearing the title of the Great One, and that at times other dragons come to the Home Plane of the Great One and seek to kill and replace him or her.As I said, I'm not particularly fond of this interpretation, but GAZ 3 is not the only source for violent succession among dragon immortals.
We seem to be thinking in parallel paths
As I said, I'm not particularly fond of this interpretation, but GAZ 3 is not the only source for violent succession among dragon immortals.
It seems strange that Dragons, being highly intelligent and magically powerful beings, and even more so since this regards the immortals among them, that they would only have such primitive ways of advancing to rulership. Though violence may be appropriate for the Evil or Chaotic among them, it definately seems inapropriate for Lawful, Good and even Neutral variants.
Inspired by the Wizards of Krynn I would suggest that:
* Chaotic Dragons have to challenge their ruler (Pearl or Great One) and kill the current one (as described in WotI).
* Lawful Dragons, when challenging a Ruler, leave it up to the other Rulers to vote for the best candidate, possibly after some demonstration of power and knowledge.
* Neutral Dragons roll dice. (or other way of random determination).
Håvard
I have to say, the Path of the Polymath was always my least favorite--it seems so utterly unworkable in game terms. One thing to note, however, is that there is no real record of which I am aware that indicates a current immortal actually completed the Path of the Polymath, as laid out in the rules. I think, at the very least, a little bit of tinkering seems to be in order.
..
What part of the Polymath was the problem? The returning to low level?
I can think of one NPC described in PC4 who was described as almost finished with the Path of Polymath, and had the level numbers for each class(and lycanthropy).
What part of the Polymath was the problem? The returning to low level?
I don't think the returning to low level is a problem, per se. Playing throught the Path of the Polymath as described, however, seems very difficult from a gaming standpoint. For one, others in the campaign must either sit and wait while the PC Polymath goes through these lower-level adventures, or else draw up new characters who are basically just extras in this side story. The Polymath's Testimony also seems singularly problematic: the Polymath, in each carnation, must quest with four companions who meet the criteria, and must replace or raise them should any die or leave. However, the Polymath does not have knowledge of this fact, as his or her memory has been wiped. Thus, the player is required to use OOC knowledge to make what should be in-character decisions.
That's not to say that the Path of the Polymath could not work well in someone's campaign: does anyone have war stories of successfully playing/DMing through this Path? Just because I would choose to alter it certainly does not mean that everyone ought to think the same--other DMs are probably much more ingenious than I am ;)
I can think of one NPC described in PC4 who was described as almost finished with the Path of Polymath, and had the level numbers for each class(and lycanthropy).
I did not look all that thoroughly, but I couldn't find such a reference. Do you remember any other details?
I did not look all that thoroughly, but I couldn't find such a reference. Do you remember any other details?
He's referring to Leo Variantia, currently a F34/T18/M14/C13 (and WereTiger36/WFox13/WBat9/WBear10), described on page 8.
I don't even want to think of how much xp that guy has to have earned to get to that point... (Though it does say he's been questing since c. 500 AC and is only now on his final quest.)
Think of this: the campaign focuses on ONE PC, which begins with other friends at 1st level. The DM knows he must achieve 12th level with his comrades and find an artifact, so it's a pretty straightforward story-arc, not too long to annoy other players and easy to design as fast-paced series of adventure.
THEN the quest is complete, and you being ANEW rolling NEW PCs, with just the main character which has same stats but a different class/race. The DM can create another campaign, with a different theme, and he knows it'll be not too long yet not too short, and will have something for everybody.
It's great, IMO. It gives all players everything they want, gives the campaign freshness and it's a good way to challenge all of the gamers.
The last part, when the main PC gets all the class-levels he had, is similar but more epic, since also the other players need to create equally powerful characters to interact with him.
Obviously the paths to Immortality are guidelines, but most of the times they're useful to create epic campaigns. I think the Master has always the last word to decide if a PC has gone through a trek hard enough to qualify his ascension to the Spheres.
;)THEN the quest is complete, and you being ANEW rolling NEW PCs, with just the main character which has same stats but a different class/race. The DM can create another campaign, with a different theme, and he knows it'll be not too long yet not too short, and will have something for everybody.
An interesting twist to this sort of campaign might be to have the aspirant to Immortality actually played by different players in each of his incarnations- though they wouldn't necessarily know right away who it was. They'd figure it out, I'm sure, especially after the first "surprise" but it might make the campaign even more interesting for the other players.
Of course, the player of the original PC might not find it as much fun, but...
An interesting twist to this sort of campaign might be to have the aspirant to Immortality actually played by different players in each of his incarnations- though they wouldn't necessarily know right away who it was. They'd figure it out, I'm sure, especially after the first "surprise" but it might make the campaign even more interesting for the other players.
Another option, that could require time travel, is to have the various incarnations in one PC party. ;)
Regards,
Gary
has anyone tried to make a timeline for the events of the trilogy and the historical events related to it?
Some things that should be included in such a timeline:
- Time of the First Dragonlord
- Ascension of the current Great One
- Alphatia-Dragon War
- Glantri Dragon War
- Trilogy beginning
- Sir George becomes a Knight of Darokin
- Solveig Whitegold marries etc etc...
- War against the Dragon Renegades
- Invasion of the Gemstone Dragons
- Ascension of Diamond
- Ascension of Pearl
- Ascension of Opal
- Thelvyn/Diamond is defeated by Prince Jaggar
- Anything else?
Back on topic,
has anyone tried to make a timeline for the events of the trilogy and the historical events related to it?
Some things that should be included in such a timeline:
- Time of the First Dragonlord
- Ascension of the current Great One
- Alphatia-Dragon War
- Glantri Dragon War
- Trilogy beginning
- Sir George becomes a Knight of Darokin
- Solveig Whitegold marries etc etc...
- War against the Dragon Renegades
- Invasion of the Gemstone Dragons
- Ascension of Diamond
- Ascension of Pearl
- Ascension of Opal
- Thelvyn/Diamond is defeated by Prince Jaggar
- Anything else?
From Andrew Theisen's Glantri Timeline:
490 AC: Dragonlord of Mystara.
495 AC: Dragonking of Mystara; Glantri is now a kingdom.(DKoM)
I cant remember if anything is said in the novels about how much later Dragonmage occurs..... Anyone?
Håvard
I cant remember if anything is said in the novels about how much later Dragonmage occurs..... Anyone?
Having recently re-read the books, I must confess I can't remember but another 5-10 years seems reasonable.
Regards,
Gary
Having recently re-read the books, I must confess I can't remember but another 5-10 years seems reasonable.
Okay, lets make it 5 years since AC500 is a nice round number.
Supplementing also from
Fabrizion Paoli's (what happened to that guy anyway?) Gnome Timeline:
400 AC approx.: The amazing Gnomish city of Torkyn Fall is destroyed by Dragons. ("Dragonlord of Mystara")
My own Blackmoor timeline:
3480-3420BC
First Beastman Crusade. Dragons learn the dangers of Blackmoor guns. (Mystaros). Personal Note: This is probably the time of the first Dragonlord.
That gives us:
3480-3420BC The First Dragonlord
In ancient Blackmoor, humans strike back against the Beastmen and their Draconic Masters in the events known as the First Beastman Crusade. Dragons learn the dangers of Blackmoor guns. To fight the dragons, the men of Blackmoor create magical armor and weapons to equip a hero known as the Dragonlord. The fate of the Dragonlord remains a mystery for milennia.
395 AC: The Flaems colonise the lands; the Radiance is discovered in Glantri.(GAZ3)
Glantri is ruled by a Council of Dukes and Wizards; Seven Duchies under the jurisdiction of an Archduchy.(DoM)
400 AC: The Flaems discover that other, enemy Alphatians are in possession of the mighty Alphatian Empire to the east.(HW)
450 AC: The city of Braejr is built.(GAZ3)
474 AC: The Great One Dragon mates with a mortal Gold Dragon giving birth to Thelvyn Foxeyes, who is later found and raised by humans in what will once become Glantri (This would make him 16 at the beginning of Dragonlord).
490 AC : Dragonlord of Mystara
Alphatians plan invasion against Norwold. They are driven back by the dragons of Wyrmsteeth.
The amazing Gnomish city of Torkyn Fall is is destroyed by Dragons.
495 AC: DragonKing of Mystara
500 AC: DragonMage of Mystara
505 AC
Thelvyn achieves Immortality and becomes the Diamond Dragon, ruler of all Lawful Dragons (WotI)
983 AC: Prince Morgaithe von Drachenfels dies, leaving his heir, Jaggar, to take up his title.(GKoM)
989 AC: Prinz Jaggar von Drachenfels marries Frau Gertrud ?, in order to more firmly unite the factions of the family.(GKoM)
AC 990:
Jaggar becomes the Grand Master of the Secret Craft of Dracology. He challenges the Diamond Dragon (Thelvyn) and defeats him, leaving him alive, but renouces his position as the new Ruler of the Lawful Dragons.
994 AC: Several victories against orcs from the Broken Lands earn Prinz Jaggar the title of Warden of the Marches.(GKoM)
I still need to work in the details about Korinn, Solveig, Darois Glantri and the rest though....
Håvard