1.) What is the theme of Mystara?
2.) Is the Setting High, Middle, or Low Magic?
3.) Does the setting have High Level Characters crawling all over the place, or is it more low powered like Ravenloft?
4.) What are the official products of Mystara?
As to specific answers-
1.) What is the theme of Mystara?
Tough one. Here are some highlights from a discussion we had about this on the mailing list a few years back (the full article is by Bruce Heard, and is available at the Vaults of Pandius here.
DEFINING MYSTARA
This general list summarises major features defining Mystara's feel as a world setting. It includes comments made by several people and remains open, should other relevant features come to light.
1) Mystaran Cosmogony: Mystara is a separate universe independent from the Spelljammer/Planescape reality. Mystara has a magical sky shield, and anti-magic ring, polar openings, an entire hollow world, an invisible moon, etc.
2) The Known World's Structure: Distinctions by culture in smaller areas vs. distinctions mostly by race across larger areas. All areas of the Known World are clearly defined by their borders and very well detailed (geographic features, population figures, etc).
3) Real World Inspiration: Mystaran cultures are fantasised adaptations of RW historical models. On the other hand, very different cultures are often immediately adjacent regardless of RW racial or geographic models.
4) Cultural Dynamics: most Mystaran cultures and races show complex interactive links between each other and on-going master-plots driving their past and present histories. No culture is considered truly evil or good, as such perceptions are based upon local misconceptions and biases.
5) Politics/Economy: Well-developed economy and politics among people and nations remain a trademark of Mystara. Decisions made by the various rulers have a direct impact on everyday life. Seeking either to become rulers or get involved with the business of established heads of states is a recurrent feature for adventurers.
6) High Fantasy/High Magic: Mystara blends a high degree of magic into its system. Regions like Nithia, Alphatia, and Glantri have developed specific fields of magic (constructs, flying ships, Secret Crafts, etc) to a high degree. Nearly every region has its own brand of magic -- some cultural, some job-oriented, some racial, etc.
7) Multifaceted NPCs: Each realm harbours a multitude of well-developed heroes, villains, and leaders (and as many guilds and secret sects) cast interchangeably as allies OR enemies on the whim of the DM and the PC's own biases. Mystaran NPCs demonstrate motives, misconceptions, and alliances DESIGNED to entangle with one another, behind the scenes.
8) Role-Reversals: Where else would lycanthropes seek to PUBLICLY establish themselves as a political lobby, or subterranean elves be NICER than some of their surface-elves rivals, or merfolk cheerfully explain how humans evolved from THEM...? Mystara frequently allows what-ifs, thought-experiments, and in-jokes to be explored, where other settings would dismiss them as silly or frivolous. Many non-human races are also available as PCs in Mystara.
9) Immortality: Characters and monsters can become divine beings, which in turn affects "religion" in Mystara. The personality, motivations, and abilities of Immortals are highly detailed, as well as their interaction with mortals. Immortals are not related to gods of other game settings.
10) Game Restrictions: These are legacies of Mystara's original game system which limited in particular racial and character abilities as well as certain monster types. It is generally assumed that NPCs created for the Known World should conform to the original model. However, character and racial features available in 3E should remain largely available for PCs. Regions outside of the Known World are also fairly tolerant of 3E character types and monsters. Highly intelligent monsters are usually adapted specifically to one of Mystara's settings. Gun powder is not available, except for smokepowder in the Savage Coast region. Psionics are also alien to Mystara.
That's an awful lot to get through, for sure (one reason I didn't place it in the FAQ yet), and needs to be trimmed down somewhat, but should serve as a gneral overview of the things Mystara has to offer that may differ from other gaming worlds.
2.) Is the Setting High, Middle, or Low Magic?
High Magic, in general, though it varies from region to region. The Known World setting features a couple of very high magic regions- notably the Principalities of Glantri (a nation ruled by wizards), and much further away, the Empire of Alphatia (a realm ruled by spellcasters of all shades). The latter nation, in its original form, featured rule by a Council of 1,000 36th level wizards (the highest level that could be reached under the original rules set). Even with its size and population (maybe especially because of the latter, which seems underpopulated), 1,000 top ranking wizards seemed a bit of overkill. That emphasis was later either ignored or toned down by most writers, but suffice to say that Alphatia was the magical giant in the world.
Other areas are very low magic- the Atruaghin Clans, a region based on real world Native American cultures, is fairly low magic, for example.
3.) Does the setting have High Level Characters crawling all over the place, or is it more low powered like Ravenloft?
Hmm... I'd say there are quite a few high level characters, but in the places you'd expect them to be- running the nations of the world. There aren't tons of high level characters sitting around solving all the problems and making things boring for adventurers. They are the rulers and plotters in the world, and most of them aren't even that high in level- aside from the aforementioned 1,000 36th level wizards, there aren't very many maximum level characters described in the accessories. Many top out at just under the highest levels (upper 20s-early 30s), while the majority, I'd say, are in their teens.
For some comparisons on levels, various conversion projects are running about, but the general consensus seems to be that levels 1-14 are the same as in 3rd edition, with levels 15 or 16-36 equalling about 1/2 a 3rd edition level- so a 36th level character would be something like 25/26th level. Given that, I'd say a lot of the NPCs would be in their teens.
4.) What are the official products of Mystara?
Far too many to list here. I've got a link to a list in the FAQ, but I'll reprint it here for convenience's sake.
The Mystara Product Index Page
It's not up to date, as there have been several Dragon magazine articles that are Mystara related (explicitly and implicitly) since it was last updated, but it covers the bulk of them.
It gives a much better regional flavour, IMO. Makes religious organisations far more local rather than every single one covering the entire known world.
(Sure, individual Immortals might be known over the whole world, particularly the more powerful ones, but modes of worship vary.)
1.) What is the theme of Mystara?
One of Mystara's biggest strengths is that it encompasses a whole host of different themes; it's similar to the real world in terms of diversity, and it has the scope to encompass practically any theme you can think of.
The foundation of Mystara is the Gazetteer series, which introduces each of the countries in a small, central area of the world. Each country has its own distinctive theme and culture, often reminiscent of a real world country. Later products deal more with how the nations fit together and interact with each other, and complex international politics, as in the real world, is a big thing in Mystara.
There are two subsettings, the Hollow World and the Savage Coast. The Hollow World details the inside of Mystara, although only a few countries have more than a basic outline. Its theme is ancient and extinct cultures, taking cues both from the real world and from the game world itself.
The Savage Coast on the other hand originated from a series of articles in Dragon magazine, which introduced a new country or area each issue. It was later redeveloped into a campaign setting, although a lot of the original designs remained intact. Like Mystara, it encompasses many themes, with many countries based on real world civilisations. The overall theme is the Red Curse, a magical poison which permeates the area, giving inhabitants strange powers.
2.) Is the Setting High, Middle, or Low Magic?
Depending on the country or area in question, Mystara encompasses all three variations. Of course this also depends very much on the individual DM and campaign, too. In most cases the DM rather than the setting will decide the magic level.
3.) Does the setting have High Level Characters crawling all over the place, or is it more low powered like Ravenloft?
Mystara has a mix of low, mid and high level characters. The original D&D rules were based on a four-tiered system, Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, in which chatacters start out low level and work their way up the ladder all the way up to the top. The type of adventures change fundamentally at each level, starting out with simple dungeon crawls, and eventually ending up with epic adventures in which the characters' actions can change the whole world, and quests to gain ascension to the next level of existence, Immortality.
As such, there are opportunities for characters of any level, with NPCs, heroes and villains to suit all occasions. No other setting allows for such long-term advancement of its characters.
4.) What are the official products of Mystara?
You can find this information and much more at the Vaults of Pandius.
I've thought about this a lot actually, since I recently ran a 3E Mystara campaign I had to find ways to pitch it to my group. You know, what is the difference between Mystara and Greyhawk, or Forgotten Realms? Or is it just another set of long, unpronouncable names to learn?
These were the questions that made me think about what Mystara's central theme is, and how that might make it different to other campaign settings.
What I came up with is this: Preservation of diversity.
In Mystara diversity is preserved by the Immortals. Ethnic diversity, racial diversity, moral diversity, even geographical diversity. It's an artificial world, not at all natural.
It hasn't evolved naturally, and if you look at it from a natural evolution pov, nothing about it makes sense.
It's an artificial world, developed by the Immortals, and the Immortals aren't gods, they're beings that were once mortal, with their own personalities, their own vested interests. What do they want for their country? Their people? What do the other Immortals want?
Would a Greek Immortal want to see their people dwindle, their civilisation fall, would they want to see all that they once knew, all that once made them mortal fade into nothing? The Greece become nothing more than a rustic idyll?
Or perhaps they'd want to perserve Greece in the face of change, to advance its position in the world? What happens when all the other Immortals are doing the same thing with their interests?
(This creates the dynamic in which mortals, and for the most part, the player characters must live. Because the Immortals aren't all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, because they aren't gods, even the lowest level character can, through the domino effect, change the course of history, disrupting the plans of the Immortals. And when they're high level, maybe even fight the Immortals on their own terms, or seek to attain Immortality for themselves.)
The preservation of diversity means you can have desert next to tundra, you can have Vikings adventuring with rapier-wielding Rennaissance Men. You can have Roman gladiators fighting Medieval knights, swashbuckling pirates versus red indians. It would seem implausible, hard to believe, perhaps even foolish, if not for the fact it all makes perfect sense in the context of Mystara.
As soon as you understand this, you'll realise that Mystara is both and less familiar than any other D&D campaign setting and makes the most sense of them all. It's a world you can believe in, be fascinated by, a world with depth, yet a world where you're never out of your depth. You can get a working knowledge of Mystara in five mins, you can spend hours learning its intricasies and you can play for years creating new material as you go.
Best of all, because it is based off the real world, you can pronounce all the names. ;)
You're talking about the Hollow World here, not Mystara properly.
As for Vikings living alongside with Medieval Knights and Arabs, didn't we have the same in the real world? Only in a wider geographical area ;)
Mystaran history is heavily influenced by Immortals' actions, but they do not dictate which culture lives and which one dies: they are forbidden to do so by their own laws. The civilizations have risen and fallen according to their own evolution (Carnifex, Thonians, Blackmoorians, Oltecs, Afridhi, Taymora, Nithians, Milenians, Varellyans to name just a few) much like on earth. and even if Mystara's history is a real mess sometimes, it still makes sense if you really want it to.
IMO Mystara's central theme are cultural diversity, opportunities for every level and style of play, and lack of ubercharacters bent on overshadowing ever single PC in the campaign. :D
For a start, Mystara's Immortals may not be gods, but they are definitely the settings equivalent to gods. After all, the whole "Immortals" thing came about through political correctness. AD&D had deities, D&D had Immortals. Their workings are different, but their origins are the same. Where are Mystara's gods? Immortals are Mystara's gods.
Another thing that apparently makes Immortals seem less powerful is that it is possible for PCs to become Immortal, whereas apparently there are no mechanics in other campaign settings (or rules sets) to become gods. This would also be a mistake. PCs can become Immortals because the D&D game was built around a progression of power - Basic, Expert, Companion, Master - and the logical conclusion of that progression is of course nothing less than godhood: Immortality.
Finally, the suggestion that even high level PCs could take on any Immortal and win is laughable. Even an 1st Level Initiate Immortal is completely immune to mortal magic, can only be hit by +5 or better magic weapons, has a good armour class, and even if hit takes the minimum possible damage (weapon damage + str bonus + magic weapon bonus).
There are only two scenarios I can imagine in which mortals could overwhelm an Immortal: if they all packed artifact level weapons, or if the Immortal were comatose. Either way they still have to be killed again on their home plane, and there they are even more powerful, and they aren't bound by any laws against squishing irritating mortals.
In the end, I don't think the Immortals themselves make Mystara particularly unique. Rather, their implementation and detailed rules coverage within the game, including the paths to Immortality, are what contribute to Mystara's uniqueness.
Or so I believe, at any rate.
Also, Mystara tends to not take itself quite as seriously as other settings (this varies from product to product, and individual campaigns vary). The Orcs of Thar gazetteer comes to mind.
Some like to comment on how the emphasis on Good vs. Evil was/is not prevalent in the setting - in that most nations are Neutral, for example, and that the Good/Evil axis was missing from the alignment system. To me, this omission of alignment choices was nothing more than political correctness gone rampant, and too much was read into it, but that could be another thread all by itself.
In the pulp-fantasy genre, the Evil Wizard always wears black, and is irredemably Evil. Take Bargle the Infamous for example - an archetypical Mystaran villain if there ever was one, and a perfect example of the kind of bad guy you would read about in pulp-fantasy novels. Even without the Good/Evil alignment system, everyone knew that Bargle was evil.
Later products allowed for some growth, in my opinion, and I like to think Mystara's single most unique characteristic is that you can play any type of campaign, at any power level, somewhere in the setting.
I'm rambling now, so I'll stop.
These are just my stream-of-conciousness views on what makes Mystara different. Your milage may vary.Some like to comment on how the emphasis on Good vs. Evil was/is not prevalent in the setting - in that most nations are Neutral, for example, and that the Good/Evil axis was missing from the alignment system. To me, this omission of alignment choices was nothing more than political correctness gone rampant, and too much was read into it, but that could be another thread all by itself.
Quite the opposite - Mystara didn't remove the Good/Evil axis of alignment, it predated it. Original D&D (the one that everybody forgets about nowadays) only had Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic, and then it split into the Red Box/Blue Box "D&D" line, which kept the old alignment system, and AD&D, which expanded it with Good and Evil. This is one of the places where the game system really affected the setting - Mystara was based on the Basic D&D rules, and it seems like they went out of their way to make sure not all "Chaotic" characters were evil and not all "Lawful" characters were good, leading to a lot of morally ambiguous NPC's. Meanwhile, the AD&D settings had a very rigid and alignment system, and developed the regimented Outer Planes which were analogues of Heaven and Hell to go with it.
(Aside: the original D&D pulled ideas from lots of different fantasy settings - Elves, Dwarves and Hobbits from Tolkien, the magic system from Jack Vance, a lot of the atmosphere from Fritz Leiber - alignment probably came from Michael Moorcock's Elric stories, in which the main conflict was between the forces of Law and Chaos, not good and evil. They were pretty far from politically correct. Elric had a sword that drank souls, to start with.)
(Another aside: I hate the way lots of sites refer to the Basic D&D incarnation as "OD&D". It wasn't the original. Calling it that leaves us with nothing convenient to call the real original D&D from before the Gygax/Arneson split. I much prefer OD&D and BD&D.)
I would say the setting is fairly High Magic. Less powerful magic is quite common, spellcasting is sort of a fact of life in most countries, and there are many powerful magics employed in abundance (for instance, fleets of magical flying airships).
As for character levels, the setting is sort of geared to handle everything from the low to the high. Certainly there are quite alot of high-level NPCs all over the place. But I think in general it would be safe to say that most of the time, the setting was geared to PCs of low and middle levels - with plenty of room for high level PCs as well.
The official products of Mystara are (technically) limited to the Gazeteer and Hollow World series and a couple of other publications originally intended for an AD&D conversion in one sense, but in another sense, it eventually incorporated pretty much all the products from the 'Classic' D&D line, even finding its way into the rulebooks as the 'official' setting for that rules version. All the modules for that version (B, X, CM, and M series) were set in Mystara and provided the framework for the later Gazeteers. The earliest were not written with the setting in mind (eg Keep on the Borderlands) but worked into the campaign with official locations, but later ones (eg Isle of Dread) were explicity set in Mystara. After the Gazeteers came the Hollow World series, which detailed the - well, the inside of Mystara. In addition, the Immortal rules also revolved around Mystara.
There were a few other products which came out in 'Classic' D&D's final incarnation (eg Knight of Newts etc) with which I'm not familiar, but some of them (I believe) were set in Mystara as well.
Last of all were the AD&D conversions. There were only two, I think, one of them was a redone version of the Principalities of Glantri (based on that Gazeteer) and the other was the "Red Steel" setting, which detailed and changed a region previously covered in one of the Classic D&D modules (X10, The Savage Coast).
I beg to differ. Mystara doesn't seem like a museum of preserved civilizations.
You're talking about the Hollow World here, not Mystara properly.
I strongly disagree, all of Mystara is artificially preserved, not just Hollow World.
This is how you come to have a small chain of islands (the Minrothad Guilds) having sailing technology that's about 2000 years more advanced than the largest, most powerful civilisation in the Known World (Thyatis). This is just one example.
So-called "lost world" areas are another example of the artificial preservation of diversity.
As for Vikings living alongside with Medieval Knights and Arabs, didn't we have the same in the real world? Only in a wider geographical area ;)
Yes. But I said "Vikings adventuring with rapier-wielding Rennaissance Men", not Arabs.
Mystaran history is heavily influenced by Immortals' actions, but they do not dictate which culture lives and which one dies: they are forbidden to do so by their own laws. The civilizations have risen and fallen according to their own evolution (Carnifex, Thonians, Blackmoorians, Oltecs, Afridhi, Taymora, Nithians, Milenians, Varellyans to name just a few) much like on earth.
The very fact that Immortals seek to use mortals to further their own interests means that civilisations are always being influenced by the Immortals. Immortals don't show up and destroy towns, but they might influence a cleric to influence a king to raise an army to do it, etc. The Immortals take an active interest in Mystara, unlike the gods in other campaign settings who seem obsessed with these abstract portfolios.
...and even if Mystara's history is a real mess sometimes, it still makes sense if you really want it to.
I think Mystara's history is straightforward enough, and it all makes perfect sense. That's what I said before, "it makes perfect sense". :D
IMO Mystara's central theme are cultural diversity, opportunities for every level and style of play, and lack of ubercharacters bent on overshadowing ever single PC in the campaign. :D
I strongly disagree, all of Mystara is artificially preserved, not just Hollow World.
Hear, Hear! The Hollow World is the Zoo for endangered species, but the outer world is the Nature Preserve for protected species. Immortals have been not only sending their clerics, but have been creating artifacts, countries, and entirely new species of sentient followers. Hunting is illegal in the Preserve, and unthinkable in the Zoo.
(Another aside: I hate the way lots of sites refer to the Basic D&D incarnation as "OD&D". It wasn't the original. Calling it that leaves us with nothing convenient to call the real original D&D from before the Gygax/Arneson split. I much prefer OD&D and BD&D.)
I apologize. I should retrain myself to call it CD&D. The Rules Cyclopedia I use now has Challenger series printed on the cover. I stopped using all previous version of D&D after I go tmy hand on that book...well years ago. ;) Or is that what you are refering to as BD&D? I was thinking BD&D was the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets.
EDIT: And I didn't realize O stood for Original. I always meant it as Old D&D.
I apologize. I should retrain myself to call it CD&D. The Rules Cyclopedia I use now has Challenger series printed on the cover. I stopped using all previous version of D&D after I go tmy hand on that book...well years ago. ;) Or is that what you are refering to as BD&D? I was thinking BD&D was the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets.
The Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets and the Challenger Series rules are the same game. I got rid of my boxed sets cause they took up too much space when I bought the Rules Cyclopedia and the game didn't change at all. So we only need one abbreviation for both - I never even considered CD&D, I guess "Challenger D&D" would sort of make sense, but I prefer BD&D.
I strongly disagree, all of Mystara is artificially preserved, not just Hollow World.
This is how you come to have a small chain of islands (the Minrothad Guilds) having sailing technology that's about 2000 years more advanced than the largest, most powerful civilisation in the Known World (Thyatis). This is just one example.
I would be interested in knowing HOW Minrothad's sailing technology is 2000 years more advanced than Thyatis'. Please quote me where in GAZ9 you read Minrothad has nuclear submarines, aircrafts and GPS systems because I fail to remember. Actually, Alphatia has submarines and carriers (see DotE!)
IIRC the more advanced sea powers are Alphatia, Thyatis, Minrothad, followed by Texeiras, Vilaverde and Ierendi. Alphatia and Thyatis have strong magics to back them up, as much as Minrothad does (who's been colonised by expatriate Alphatians and Thyatians after all). Texeiras and Vilaverde rely mostly on seamanship and renaissance technology instead, so they're a step behind. I don't see 2000 years of difference between these civilizations
Also, the Immortals DO NOT PRESERVE cultures in the outer world. It is true they try to influence them, but only if that serves to their own agenda, which has always something to do with furthering one's sphere's power!
the Immortals could have saved hundreds of civilizations if they wanted to but they didn't! Look how different is AC1000 Mystara from BC1000 and you'll tell me!
Thyatis didn't exist up to AC0
the Traladarans didn't exist up to BC 500
Darokin didn't exist (and the Darokinians weren't there) until the first centuries AC
the Five Shires had gained their freedom only in the VI century BC
Ierendi and Minrothad were not political powers until the VI century AC
Shall I go on? ;)
So as you can see, the world changes, and it changes DRASTICALLY sometimes. The only real reserve is the Hollow World, where the Immortals DIRECTLY intervene to store endangered species and magically altered their evolution with the Spell of Preservation.
So-called "lost world" areas are another example of the artificial preservation of diversity.
They are not preserved by immortals, simply ignored by the civilized countries and thereby remain "lost" to them
Yes. But I said "Vikings adventuring with rapier-wielding Rennaissance Men", not Arabs.
There still were sword wielding Vikings when in Europe gunpowder was developed and knights in armor rode across the countryside. so what?
;) :P
I would be interested in knowing HOW Minrothad's sailing technology is 2000 years more advanced than Thyatis'. Please quote me where in GAZ9 you read Minrothad has nuclear submarines, aircrafts and GPS systems because I fail to remember. Actually, Alphatia has submarines and carriers (see DotE!)
Hi, me again. Sorry if my last post seemed antagonistic, it wasn't meant that way.
Just wanted to say that.Anyway, I wasn't being precise with the 2000 years figure, since Thyatis and Minrothad aren't precisely dated to their real world equivalents, afaik. I guess if we take Thyatis as being 1st Century AD and Minrothad as mid-17th century AD, so that's almost 2000 years. (Not that it really matters, the point is made. Thyatis is sailing around in triremes, Minrothad in galleons.)
But put simply, as we all know Mystaran civilisations are based on real world equivalents, right? Real world civilisations evolved naturally... well, according to our scientific understanding of the universe. ;) In Mystara there are two things that prove it has developed artificially. 1. The presence of essentially real world civilisations from different real world eras (even separated by millennia), neighbouring each other for centuries. 2. The presence of the Immortals with vested interests in certain civilisations and/or peoples.
Also, the Immortals DO NOT PRESERVE cultures in the outer world. It is true they try to influence them, but only if that serves to their own agenda, which has always something to do with furthering one's sphere's power!
And as a result of this diversity is preserved, artifically. The Immortal's agenda may not be to preserve diversity, but that is the result of their actions. This is why Mystara makes sense, imho.
...the Immortals could have saved hundreds of civilizations if they wanted to but they didn't!
As you said in another post, they have rules to prevent such direct action, and as I said the Immortals aren't all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful, which means they have limitations, which means they can fail.
So as you can see, the world changes, and it changes DRASTICALLY sometimes. The only real reserve is the Hollow World, where the Immortals DIRECTLY intervene to store endangered species and magically altered their evolution with the Spell of Preservation.
I don't disagree with this. Culture20 said it best:
Hear, Hear! The Hollow World is the Zoo for endangered species, but the outer world is the Nature Preserve for protected species. Immortals have been not only sending their clerics, but have been creating artifacts, countries, and entirely new species of sentient followers. Hunting is illegal in the Preserve, and unthinkable in the Zoo.
Lost world areas are an interesting point, I think, since there are no real world equivalents.
They are not preserved by immortals, simply ignored by the civilized countries and thereby remain "lost" to them
As we know, civilisations don't simply ignore places, especially those that are within their borders or near to their borders. The only way such areas could survive, with Cretaceous animals (e.g. tyrannosaurs) living alongside Pleistocene animals (e.g. smilodons), alongside Neanderthals is if an Immortal was interested in preserving them. Ka perhaps.
There still were sword wielding Vikings when in Europe gunpowder was developed and knights in armor rode across the countryside. so what?
;) :P
Are you saying Vikings were still around in the 1500s? The Viking Age ended in 1066.
"The oldest evidence for the use of cannon is a relief carved by Buddhist monks in China in 1128, where a cannon is portrayed among other weapons of war. In the West, the use of cannon was first recorded in the battles of the early 14th century, for instance, at the siege of Metz in 1324, and by the English against the Scots in 1327. The earliest listing of firearms in an army inventory is in 1326."
So gunpowder was created in 1128 in the Chinese Empire, and developed by Europe in 1324 (which means in late Middle Ages).
Also, technically you're right, the Viking age starts in 708 AD and ends in 1066 AD (the Normans' conquest of England), but the Vikings were still there up to 1320, only they had been unified by a single King (that's true for Denmark, Norway and Sweden) and slowly converted to christianity. This took the Vikings into the Middle Ages.
What didn't happen in Mystara was the fall of the THyatian (Roman) Empire and the conversion to a universal faith of the Vikings and colonies of the Thyatian Empire. But we do not see cultures with a centuries gap in technology living side by side, mainly because magic often fills this gap!
You say Thyatians use trireme only, but that's plain wrong! Go see the ship in DotE's Thyatis map: it's a typical Greek war galley, the Dromond, only adapted to sea voyages. The Thyatians are not Classic Age Romans stuck in that era: they have evolved taking improvements from nearby cultures and making new discoveries themselves!
That is why I am telling you that outer world cultures are not frozen in time, with some moderate exceptions (the demi-human cultures seem to be content with a certain status quo, but that's comprehensible with elves and dwarves and their longes lifespan).
Why do Atruaghins exist next to XIII century Darokinians modeled after the Italian cities? Because they refuse progress as much as Amerindians clinged to their cultural heritage and resented the White Men's tools.
Same can be said for Ethengars, who are not interested in Thyatian or Darokinian luxuries because of their lifestyle, although they do not oversee practical inventions that could give them the edge in war and conquest (armors, weapons, barding, etc..)
The real oddities IMO are to be found in the Savage Coast more than the Old World... but again they could be explained with some suspension of disbelief ;)
nemarsde, you seem to have a slight misconception about Mystaran cultures. Just because they are based on real world cultures does not mean that they are similar in every way; for that, check out the Hollow World, which definitely has cultures of different ages side by side. Outer World cultures, however, are generally at comparable levels of technology, regardless of their sources. Marco explained some of the exceptions, but other than those, most cultures are pretty much on a technological level.
Basically, in D&D technology is based on the rules, not on the apparent real world equivalent technologies. After all, almost every nation uses swords, shields, bows & arrows, etc., and they all share the same basic classes. If Thyatis was meant to be so inferior to Minrothad in sailing technology, the rules would reflect that, wouldn't they?
The way I've played it is that the Known World compares more or less to Europe around 1500 BC in terms of average technology and cultural advancement.
A few countries are a bit more advanced, Glantri and Darokin in particular.
Thyatis and the Northern Reaches have many traits similar to older R/W cultures though they are technologically more or less on 1500s level. In the case of the NR some advanced equipment (such as plate mail) is less common due to economic differences as cultural preferences.
Athruagin (and to some extent Ethengar) have a less developed technology, though this could perhaps be explained by a strong reliance on (low-level) magic.
Håvard
I don't quite get the idea that the Viking age came to an end all of a sudden in 1066. Or rather, I should point out that "the Viking age" ending does not mean that all Vikings suddenly disappeared. In the Orkney Islands, we certainly don't count that rather irrelevant date as the end of anything in our history, because things carried on much as they had before.
Depends on your definition of Vikings. After 1066 there was a dramatic drop in raids from Denmark/Norway. There may have been a decrease in the time leading up to that also.
Furthermore, Norway was officially made Christian in 1030 (Battle of Stiklestad), and although in reality Christianity took a bit longer to sink in, the new religion both helped to decrease the number of raids and represented a shift in Nordic culture. Ofcourse not all aspects (language, values, traditions) of that culture changed, but defining elements such as Norse Faith and Raids were now gone.
Nordic contact with the Orkneys, Shetland Islands and Scotland as well as attempts of political/military expansion in those areas continued in the centuries to come.
As for the Mystaran comparison I agree with you Thorf, the equipment list indeed indicates that quite advanced (1500s style) equipment is available in both Thyatis and the Northern Reaches. IMC I rule that the economy of the Norsemen make it expensive to make/import certain items (ie Plate/Suit Armor) and cultural preference also tends to enforce the appropriate Viking style imagery. The same goes for Thyatis, though IMC I have Thyatian Suit Armored Knights fighting alongside the legions....
Håvard
Depends on your definition of Vikings. After 1066 there was a dramatic drop in raids from Denmark/Norway. There may have been a decrease in the time leading up to that also.
That's a very good point. Personally I consider "the Vikings" to be the name of a culture and people, and not necessarily just one with certain beliefs and a habit of going raiding. Although obviously that is the popular conception, and here in Japan I am constantly fighting the image of Vikings as pirates. (Which is not to say that they weren't, but they were much more than just that.)
Nordic contact with the Orkneys, Shetland Islands and Scotland as well as attempts of political/military expansion in those areas continued in the centuries to come.
Håvard, Orcadians cringe when people say "the Orkneys". :p I'm not entirely sure why, but the correct names are "the Orkney Islands", "the Orkney Isles", or just "Orkney". (Interestingly this doesn't seem to agree with the Old Norse name, nor the names in other European languages such as French - "les Orcades".)
I wouldn't quite say "Nordic contact" for Orkney and Shetland, though. Effectively we were colonies, and being islands the majority of the population was Nordic. Indeed we remained part of Norway/Denmark until we were pawned away to Scotland in 1468 and then annexed in 1471. Apparently a form of Old Norse was still spoken until about 300 years ago.
Getting somewhat off topic now, though, sorry. ;)
As for the Mystaran comparison I agree with you Thorf, the equipment list indeed indicates that quite advanced (1500s style) equipment is available in both Thyatis and the Northern Reaches. IMC I rule that the economy of the Norsemen make it expensive to make/import certain items (ie Plate/Suit Armor) and cultural preference also tends to enforce the appropriate Viking style imagery. The same goes for Thyatis, though IMC I have Thyatian Suit Armored Knights fighting alongside the legions....
Håvard
IMC, Thyatis is similar to the Romano-Byzantine Empire under Justinian if you never had the Romans convert to Christianity. This allows for heavily armored cavalry, more advanced ship technology, etc... To me, Thyatis City has always felt more like Constantinople than Rome, both in the source material and in its relation to the rest of Mystara.
Thyatis is definitely more like the Eastern Roman Empire, Bysantium and the like. And do not forget that the Romans were VERY MUCH MORE enlightened and advanced than the people of the Middle Ages (which are called Dark Ages for a reason: the loss of the culture and knowledge of the Roman Empire threw Europe into darkness until Renaissance came!) Romans had ballista, catapults, aqueducts, sewers, chirurgeons and chemical mixtures way before the Middle Age came, and were more cultured than their medieval descendants!
We can identify IMO 3 different cultures in Thyatis, also judging from the names of many NPCs:
Thyatians (Classic Italic Romans)
Hattians (Germanic Romans)
Kerendans (Byzantine Romans)
Then you have:
Isle of Dawn: Britannia
Hinterlands: Gaul
Ylaruam: MIddle East provinces
Pearl Islands: Nubia
There still were sword wielding Vikings when in Europe gunpowder was developed and knights in armor rode across the countryside. so what?
This statement isn't related to a date, so it's vague and I had to put a date on it myself. I chose the 1500s because that's when you finally had knights in suits of armour and widespread cannons and mortars used on the battlefield.
Having said that, there were certainly knights in armour and gunpowder in Europe before then.
nemarsde, you seem to have a slight misconception about Mystaran cultures. Just because they are based on real world cultures does not mean that they are similar in every way; for that, check out the Hollow World, which definitely has cultures of different ages side by side.
No misconception here, only a personal interpretation, the same which can said for any other opinion. But either way, I never said the Mystaran and real world equivalents were similar in every way, that would be ignoring the fact that Mystara's a D&D fantasy setting.
Known World civilisations continue to develop as they always have done. However, you might say there's an artificial perservative that makes them last longer. ;)
You say Thyatians use trireme only, but that's plain wrong! Go see the ship in DotE's Thyatis map: it's a typical Greek war galley, the Dromond, only adapted to sea voyages.
It would be plain wrong if I said Thyatians use triremes only. :D But I didn't.
Anyway, the picture in DotE is labelled a Thyatian dromon -- a dromon is Byzantine, btw, not Greek -- but looks like a Roman trireme, especially with the built-up forecastle and clad ram.
Besides the point I guess. My point is, whether it's a dromon or a trireme, the Minrothad Guilds have much more advanced sailing technology.
Even then, that wasn't really the point I meant to make. My point was that Mystara just doesn't make sense without the Immortals.
...put simply, as we all know Mystaran civilisations are based on real world equivalents, right? Real world civilisations evolved naturally... well, according to our scientific understanding of the universe. In Mystara there are two things that prove it has developed artificially. 1. The presence of essentially real world civilisations from different real world eras (even separated by millennia), neighbouring each other for centuries. 2. The presence of the Immortals with vested interests in certain civilisations and/or peoples.
(And we haven't even started on the geography, which definitely only makes sense with the Immortals preserving diversity.)
It would be plain wrong if I said Thyatians use triremes only. :D But I didn't.
Anyway, the picture in DotE is labelled a Thyatian dromon -- a dromon is Byzantine, btw, not Greek -- but looks like a Roman trireme, especially with the built-up forecastle and clad ram.
Besides the point I guess. My point is, whether it's a dromon or a trireme, the Minrothad Guilds have much more advanced sailing technology.
The principle fighting ship of Rome was a quinguereme. Triremes were Greek and by the time Rome took control of "Mare Nostrum", were considerably inferior fighting vessels. I haven't looked at it recently, but based on your description, the DotE illustration is of a quinquereme.
Your perception that Minrothad sailing technology was so much more advanced is a little misguided. It is true, that if you are making long-distant voyages over open sea, galleons are more practical. But, in the absence of gunpowder and cannon, they are lousy ships to fight with. They have good speed and manuverabilty only when the winds are blowing and blowing from an advantageous direction. Their riggings are extremely susceptible to damage. Thyatian galleys (and similar ships) may not be as swift, but they do not rely the winds for movement and can manuever in ways sail-powered ships cannot. The Thyatian point of view might be that Minrothad's ship technology is actually inferior to their own, since you can fight more effectively in a galley.
Now to the point about Immortals- Yes, Immortals have interfered, but their rules punish those that act directly on the Material Plane. The result is they rely on their followers to forward these plots instead of directly mucking up the world. Compared to other settings (which is part of the point of this thread), this is the height of restraint. Everytime you blink, some god is appearing in the world and messing with the Forgotten Realms in some manner or another. You almost get the feeling that an average inhabitant in that world would forget to eat if there wasn't some god popping up and telling them to do so.
(And we haven't even started on the geography, which definitely only makes sense with the Immortals preserving diversity.)
Yes, it only makes sense with Big Magic, but would the Elven and Dwarven homelands screw things up enough to make the current layout by chance, or does it actually need the Immortals to be putting different microclimates right next to each other on purpose?
The principle fighting ship of Rome was a quinguereme. Triremes were Greek and by the time Rome took control of "Mare Nostrum", were considerably inferior fighting vessels. I haven't looked at it recently, but based on your description, the DotE illustration is of a quinquereme.
I think it's actually a "who knows", it is labelled a Thyatian dromon, I thought it looked more like a Roman trireme (the Romans did use triremes) but I just got out DotE and actually had a look at it and it's only got two banks of rowers, and it looks like one of those is seated in the outriggers. That'd make it closer to a Roman bireme or liburnae, right? It does have a built-up forecastle as I remembered.
Btw, the quinqereme was a superior merchant and patrol ship, but not an inferior warship to the trireme, iirc. I don't know, I'm probably wrong, but that's what I thought.
Your perception that Minrothad sailing technology was so much more advanced is a little misguided.
Another fair point. Although I wouldn't say misguided, more unsubstantiated. ;) One thing this talk of ships has made me realise is how little we actually know about the seas around the Known World, or at least the kind of knowledge that'd be important to a sailor.
However, assuming the Thyatian dromon is well-suited to its task, it could be that the Sea of Dawn is rather gentle, whereas the Sea of Dread is rougher. After all, if we're assuming the Thyatian dromon is well-suited to the task, we must assume the Minrothad galleon is too. (Or else why would they have developed it?)
Still, with the advances Minrothad made you'd expect the Thyatians to have developed a yacht of some kind. Maybe they have?
Now to the point about Immortals- Yes, Immortals have interfered, but their rules punish those that act directly on the Material Plane. The result is they rely on their followers to forward these plots instead of directly mucking up the world.
Yep, as I said earlier:
Immortals don't show up and destroy towns, but they might influence a cleric to influence a king to raise an army to do it, etc.
Gods in other campaign settings do this too, but the great thing about Mystara imo is that the gods aren't whacky evil villains, twiddling their moustaches and plotting diabolical schemes to conquer the world for no apparent reason. In Mystara the Immortals have personalities, they were once mortal and that gives them more sympathetic, and so more interesting motives.
I apologize. I should retrain myself to call it CD&D. The Rules Cyclopedia I use now has Challenger series printed on the cover. I stopped using all previous version of D&D after I go tmy hand on that book...well years ago. ;) Or is that what you are refering to as BD&D? I was thinking BD&D was the Basic/Expert/Companion/Master sets.
EDIT: And I didn't realize O stood for Original. I always meant it as Old D&D.
Let me clarify this for you...and you can find TONS more information about this over at www.dragonsfoot.org.
OD&D = The original Dungeons & Dragons game created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, usually found in a white or brown wood-grained box.
Holmes Basic D&D = First revision of D&D by Professor Eric Holmes, taking characters through levels 1-5.
B/X D&D = Also called Moldvay or Moldvay/Cook D&D. Takes characters from levels 1-14 in the Basic & Expert Sets. 1981? I believe and has the Erol Otus artwork on the covers.
BECMI D&D = Or Mentzer D&D. Edited by Frank Mentzer and takes characters from levels 1-36 and possibly to immortality. They were comprised of the Basic, Expert, Companion, Master & Immortal rules.
RC D&D = Rules Cyclopedia. Compilation of the BECM rules in one hardcover book. Very handy. Minor clarifications and differences from the BECM rules.
I won't even talk about the black box "Classic" D&D edition...everything after the RC is irrelevant...maybe call it the pokemon edition or something....
Let me clarify this for you...and you can find TONS more information about this over at www.dragonsfoot.org.
That site no longer exists, and archive.org's not responding so I can't tell what used to be there. However, http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/Rulebooks.html has pictures of all (most of?) the box covers.
OD&D = The original Dungeons & Dragons game created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, usually found in a white or brown wood-grained box.
This is what I use OD&D to refer to, although I've seen it used for BECMI a lot so that might be confusing. I'd love it if OD&D standardized to refer to this version. Description at http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Original.html.
This was definitely a different system to both BD&D and AD&D - although I can't name any of the differences off the top of my head, I had the Best of Dragon vol 1 and I remember a lot of the articles clearly being about a different game than I had.
Holmes Basic D&D = First revision of D&D by Professor Eric Holmes, taking characters through levels 1-5.
B/X D&D = Also called Moldvay or Moldvay/Cook D&D. Takes characters from levels 1-14 in the Basic & Expert Sets. 1981? I believe and has the Erol Otus artwork on the covers.
BECMI D&D = Or Mentzer D&D. Edited by Frank Mentzer and takes characters from levels 1-36 and possibly to immortality. They were comprised of the Basic, Expert, Companion, Master & Immortal rules.
acaeum.com considers the Holmes Basic Set, the Moldvay Basic Set and the Mentzer Basic Set to be different editions of the same product (http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Basic.html). Are you sure the Holmes version covered levels 1-5 and not 1-3 like the later Basic sets?
It looks like the 1st through 7th printings were the Holmes version, the 8th through 11th printings were the Moldvay version, and the 12th printing and onward were the Mentzer version (which was the first to include the solo adventure featuring Bargle and Aleena, so I believe it was the first to directly tie in to what would become Mystara in the rulebook).
I started with the Mentzer version and at some point picked up the Moldvay version at a garage sale and used that (it was punched so I could put the Basic and Expert together in a binder) until the RC came out. The two versions were clearly the same system, it was just the flavour text and organization that were different. I've heard that things like the Magic-User spell tables were different between various printings, but it's not something I ever noticed - I'd say they're definitely closer than 3.0 and 3.5. Based on the Aecaeum page, I assume the Holmes version was the same overall system as well, so I'd say all of these (and the Rules Cyclopedia) should be called BD&D, since you're playing the same game no matter which books you have.
In summary, I wouldn't say the "Holmes version" is a seperate version that only goes up to level 5, while the "Mentzer version" goes up to level 36. It's just that they ended up revising the Holmes version several times before they got around to publishing the higher level books.
EDIT: Oh, yeah - the main source of confusion to me is that I often refer to BD&D as "red box" D&D, because (a) it makes sense to name the whole line after the Basic Set, which was the first core set, and (b) the 12th printing of the Basic Set is what I started with and is, IMHO, the definitive boxed set. However, it actually started with a blue box. Also "red box" could refer to the 8th printing too, but I dunno if that adds or removes confusion. And "blue box" is especially confusing cause it could mean either the Holmes Basic Set or the Moldvay Expert Set.
IMC, Thyatis is similar to the Romano-Byzantine Empire under Justinian if you never had the Romans convert to Christianity. This allows for heavily armored cavalry, more advanced ship technology, etc... To me, Thyatis City has always felt more like Constantinople than Rome, both in the source material and in its relation to the rest of Mystara.
IIRC, Thyatis was originally described as being similar to Byzantium in the first "blurb" ever written about it (in module X1), though later writers seemed to give it a more Classical Roman feel.
Let me clarify this for you...and you can find TONS more information about this over at www.dragonsfoot.org.
I fixed the link. You have to add in the http:// when linking from these message boards, or it doesn't work.
For anyone who didn't know that, let me point out that it's easy to see when the link isn't working by looking at the address bar. In this case, for example, the link goes to http://www.wizards.com/www.dragonsfoot.org . So just edit out the http://www.wizards.com/ part and press return to get to the originally linked site, http://www.dragonsfoot.org.