Post/Author/DateTime	Post
havard 03-27-08, 11:45 AM	Inspired by the Build a City thread, has anyone paired up the regions of the IoD with RW cultural counterparts? Officially the Island seems to be divided only between Thyatian, Alphatian and Thothian cultures, but the geographic names suggest inspiration from the British Isles. I am no expert on Celtic languages so I'm going to need help with this: Caerdwicca - Wales, Cornwall? Scotland? Dunadale - Scotland? Ekto - Ancient Phoenicia? (Phoenician era Lebanon?) Furmenglaive - Dark Wizards. Fomorrans? Helskir - Viking Era Yorkshire (Dark) Hillvale/East Portage -Alphatia? Kendach -Roman Era Britannia? Redstone - Ireland/Eire Septentriona - Monsters (Sylvan/Fey/Dark Fey?) Thothia - Ancient Egypt Trikelios - Ancient Phoenicia? (Phoenician Era Cyprus?) West Portage - Northern Ireland/Ulster? + Thyatis Westrourke -Orkneys It would be nice if we could give each region a distinct identity... Also, any room for some Pictish types here? Havard
Agathokles 03-27-08, 02:24 PM	Caerdwicca - Wales, Cornwall? Scotland? Scotland, with some Viking raider overtones. Dunadale - Scotland? Also Ireland, probably. Furmenglaive - Dark Wizards. Fomorrans? Another vaguely Scottish place, with Werevolves. Ekto - Ancient Phoenicia? (Phoenician era Lebanon?) Helskir - Viking Era Yorkshire (Dark) Hillvale/East Portage -Alphatia? Kendach -Roman Era Britannia? Redstone - Ireland/Eire Septentriona - Monsters (Sylvan/Fey/Dark Fey?) Thothia - Ancient Egypt Trikelios - Ancient Phoenicia? (Phoenician Era Cyprus?) West Portage - Northern Ireland/Ulster? + Thyatis Westrourke -Orkneys Westrourke seems more or less Scottish (more than Dunadale, IMO, which seems more Irish). The rest is more or less there. Also, any room for some Pictish types here? Plenty, both in the Westrourke/Dunadale wilderness and in the Provinciae. GP
havard 03-27-08, 03:23 PM	Caerdwicca: Scotland, with some Viking raider overtones. Yeah, the seafaring aspect (or even Piracy) is central to Caerdwicca. You are right, the names are more Scotish. Dunadale: Also Ireland, probably. If we want to distinguish it from Redstone, maybe we could emphasize on the pictish types living here? More spiked hair, blue painted warrior types living in the wilds? Redstone seems more civilized with lots of castles and the like... Furmenglaive: Another vaguely Scottish place, with Werevolves. Werewolves and horror noted. Perhaps we could link their darkness to the more sinister parts of Celtic mythology? Westrourke seems more or less Scottish (more than Dunadale, IMO, which seems more Irish). It has Scottish elements, but many of the placenames are also Scandinavian. This made me think of the Orkneys, which have been inflenced by both Scottish and Norwegian culture (Thorf might expand on this). One of the bigger towns, Kirkwall reminded me of Newkirk. (Kirk comes from the Norwegian word meaning Church, Kirke). The rest is more or less there. Good! Do these cultural regions seem a little big, compared to how much space RW cultures get in the Known World though? If we wanted to include Welsh, Cornish, and maybe even Anglo-Saxon and Norman micro-cultures within these bigger regions, maybe only as small as a few 8-mile hexes each, where would they fit? Also could we do something more interesting with Hillvale than having it just be an Alphatian colony through and through? Perhaps this could be a good place to insert some Welsh culture? The landscape seems to be similar... Maybe some Cornish micro-region would work in Caerdwicca? So where do these people come from? If we limit this discussion to the Celtic inspired folks, do any of them have direct Laterran origins? Cthulhudrew once suggested that many could simply be settlers from Darokin. Maybe settlers from Klantyre and other areas of Glantri? Ofcourse, one could also imagine an original Celtic-type population of the Isle dating back perhaps as far as the Age of Nithia... Havard
Agathokles 03-27-08, 04:48 PM	Dunadale: If we want to distinguish it from Redstone, maybe we could emphasize on the pictish types living here? More spiked hair, blue painted warrior types living in the wilds? Redstone seems more civilized with lots of castles and the like... I think the main difference is that Dunadale is more of a republic with a strong accent on individual freedom and local self-rule, while Redstone is more militant and "Thyatian". Furmenglaive: Werewolves and horror noted. Perhaps we could link their darkness to the more sinister parts of Celtic mythology? Possibly, though the Furmenglaive people seem to draw inspiration from a later age (more like XVIII or XIX century, perhaps). It has Scottish elements, but many of the placenames are also Scandinavian. This made me think of the Orkneys, which have been inflenced by both Scottish and Norwegian culture (Thorf might expand on this). One of the bigger towns, Kirkwall reminded me of Newkirk. (Kirk comes from the Norwegian word meaning Church, Kirke). OK. Do these cultural regions seem a little big, compared to how much space RW cultures get in the Known World though? If we wanted to include Welsh, Cornish, and maybe even Anglo-Saxon and Norman micro-cultures within these bigger regions, maybe only as small as a few 8-mile hexes each, where would they fit? IMO, the regions are more or less there. Of course there's a lot of space for local variations. Also could we do something more interesting with Hillvale than having it just be an Alphatian colony through and through? Perhaps this could be a good place to insert some Welsh culture? The landscape seems to be similar... Hillvale doesn't strike me as especially Welsh or anything else. Probably it was originally similar to Dunadale in culture, but was deeply influenced by the major Alphatian presence. Maybe some Cornish micro-region would work in Caerdwicca? That's possible. Also, the two Provinciae are basically free from specific influences (except the obvious Thyatian colonization). So where do these people come from? If we limit this discussion to the Celtic inspired folks, do any of them have direct Laterran origins? Cthulhudrew once suggested that many could simply be settlers from Darokin. Maybe settlers from Klantyre and other areas of Glantri? Ofcourse, one could also imagine an original Celtic-type population of the Isle dating back perhaps as far as the Age of Nithia... IMO, they are related to the people of the Hinterlands and those of Robrenn. Since both these came from the Antalian lands (Norwold/Heldann), and the IoD is also near the Heldann Freeholds, my idea is that the original islanders came from the area of Helskir, having broken off the main M-Celtic Antalian tribe back in the Heldann/Heldland region. GP
CmdrCorsiken 03-27-08, 06:09 PM	On what are your cultural conclusions being based on? I don't find that much detail in the DotE material.
TraverseTravis 03-27-08, 06:31 PM	Here's a quote from James Mishler from the Compiled Q&A on the HackWurld of Mystaros in the Vaults (http://www.pandius.com/hwrld_qa.html): Dawn of the Emperors: Isle of Dawn Check out my stuff on the Isle of Dawn at the Vaults. You will get a general idea of what is going to happen there. It will not be this great wilderness; there will be cultures there. There will be history there. However, it will still have room to "expand," for reasons I will not go into yet. To give you the basic rundown on cultures and regions: Region = Native Culture [RW/Fantasy Equivalent] Dunadale = Dunael [Celts/Dunedain] = Yup, noble wandering rangers looking to kick ass. No kilts. Helskir & Westrourke = Helska [British Saxons] = Think Saxons after the invasion of the Danes. Westrourke = Ostlander Colonies [Norse Viking] = Think Danelaw. Redstone = Aran [Irish] = Take the movie "Darby O'Gill and the Little People." Leprechauns, only man-sized. East/West Portage = Various mixed, native and foreign. = Think Lankhmar. The cities exist for their own sake. And they are ugly... Lands North of Kendach, scattered here and there = Daumancer [Normans] = Take the Pure Alphatians. Add Hattians. Add noble bloodlines from most cultures of the continent. Add in a lot of attitude. Usually with the power to back it up. Shadow Coast North = Ispans [Spanish] = You know 'em, you love 'em. This is where they came from. Check out my history on the Vaults. Shadow Coast = Amancerians [Medieval Italians] = Take "Romeo and Juliet." Remove the romance and the pretty words. Add magic. Shadow Coast South & Interior = Caerda [Scots-Irish Vikings] = Blarg with kilts! "Keel the wimmen an' rrravish the laif-stoock, lads! Och, nae, wait, that's noot rrright..." Ekto & Trikelios = Alatians [Medieval Greeks] = Think Milenians culturally evolved over a thousand years, and mixed with Thothians, Makai, and Alphatians. Thothia = Thothians [Classical Egyptians] = You know them well. However, the Way of the Spider won't be the only mystical philosophy... Travis
CmdrCorsiken 03-27-08, 06:56 PM	Here's a quote from James Mishler from the Compiled Q&A on the HackWurld of Mystaros in the Vaults (http://www.pandius.com/hwrld_qa.html): Travis So it's from a non-TSR source. That's why I hadn't heard about it yet. Thanks for the info.
havard 03-27-08, 07:45 PM	On what are your cultural conclusions being based on? I don't find that much detail in the DotE material. GP and I were basically just basing our assumptions on the names from the map. If the names of a region sound Scottish, one can assume that the culture is aswell. As I said initially, canon gives the impression that one third is Thyatian, one third is Thothian and one third is Alphatian. I find it more interesting to diversify this a bit though. Travis: Thanks for posting James' version, I guess I read it at one point and that probably influenced my initial writeup. It is interesting to see how much matches mine and GP's setup. Not sure which one I like best now. The Hackmaster variant was designed to be a bit more extreme than the original Mystara... Too bad it never saw the light of day though... :( Havard
CmdrCorsiken 03-28-08, 12:24 AM	GP and I were basically just basing our assumptions on the names from the map. If the names of a region sound Scottish, one can assume that the culture is aswell. As I said initially, canon gives the impression that one third is Thyatian, one third is Thothian and one third is Alphatian. I find it more interesting to diversify this a bit though. Havard That is the same impression I got, but the place names always made me wonder a bit. Of course, there is nothing that said those towns and cities were founded by Thyatis or Alphatia. If there were already Thothians from Nithia there before either empire came, why wouldn't there be colonies from other early cultures of the region. Makes sense to me now....
Wilhelm_ 03-28-08, 08:38 PM	Ekto - Ancient Phoenicia? (Phoenician era Lebanon?) Trikelios - Ancient Phoenicia? (Phoenician Era Cyprus?) Here's a quote from James Mishler from the Compiled Q&A on the HackWurld of Mystaros in the Vaults (http://www.pandius.com/hwrld_qa.html): ... Ekto & Trikelios = Alatians [Medieval Greeks] = Think Milenians culturally evolved over a thousand years, and mixed with Thothians, Makai, and Alphatians. This makes me wonder about the history of Ekto, Trikelios and Minaea. Is there any clue about when these M-Greeks arrived at the IoD and Skothar? Should Minaea be a M-Hellenistic Bactria? How those places look nowadays (pehaps late medieval Greece, as Mystaros suggested?)? And how different should them be from Kastelios and other davanian milenian city-states (despite th obvious local cultures that influenced each M-Greek place)? :)
Agathokles 03-29-08, 06:27 AM	This makes me wonder about the history of Ekto, Trikelios and Minaea. Is there any clue about when these M-Greeks arrived at the IoD and Skothar? Should Minaea be a M-Hellenistic Bactria? Minaea is described as a land of pirates. The closest RW parallel I can think of is Cilicia. As to how the M-Greeks arrived at Ekto and Trikelios, one can imagine that they escaped the fall of the OW Milenian Empire by sea. GP
TraverseTravis 03-29-08, 10:47 AM	Minaea is described as a land of pirates. As far as I recall, didn't someone say that Bruce Heard said that the Minaeans were sea-going M-Picts? Does anyone know the source for this? Travis
Zendrolion 03-30-08, 09:01 AM	I had been working for a while on the IoD cultural issue, but then I stopped becouse of lacking time and other projects. Here are some details of my take on the whole region. Perhaps you can find something useful amidst them (some material has been borrowed from other authors of the Vaults and not only). ;) According to my migration maps (which take into account LoZompatore's take about the right position of Mystara's axis before GRoF - KW is really the north pole in this version), two ancestral human races inhabit the ancient IoD: the Asyidhi (a western branch of the Neathar Afridhi that comes to populate the ancient IoD) and a branch of the Oltec Oltecindians. So, ancestrally, in the IoD we've a population like M-Hamites/Semites (ancestors of the later Nithians and Alasiyans that will then move to the KW) and a generic copper-skinned population discended from the Oltecindians. The ASYIDHI evolve as follows: they split into many branches, two of which are the NITHIANS (that will then move in the KW before BC 2000), and the Aseni (ancestors of modern Alasiyans, that will be enslaved by the Nithians around BC 900 and in part deported in the Ylaruam region as slaves - from GAZ2 we know in fact that Alasiyans come originally from the IoD). Around BC 2000 a Neathar-descended population, the ALBANS, arrives in the KW and crosses the land-bridge of Soderfjord-Redstone region (soon to collapse becouse of the sinking of the Taymoran-held southern part of the KW) and splits in various branches. These Albans are the population that brings M-Celtic culture to the IoD. They split in many populations, which should belong to the Brythonic and Goidelic language families: Dunaels (modern Dunadale and northern Westrourke regions) [M-Wales, Cornwall and generic Celts of Britain] Albernians (Shadow Coast region - from central Septentriona to Meridiona) [M-Celtiberians] Teihzels (modern West/East Portage and Kendach regions) [M-Bretons] Ruagallans (Redstone region) [M-Irish] Caerdas (southern Meridiona, Caerdwicca and Furmenglaive regions) [M-Scots] These populations settle among the less numerous Asyidhi. The Asyidhi in particular could have given birth to M-Middle Oriental cultures (Phoenicians, Jews, ancient Syria and Anatolia, etc.) in the southern and eastern part of the IoD. Regarding Asyidhi-descended peoples, I was thinking to have the Aseni culture settled in northern Septentriona (their descendants could also have survived the Nithian enslavement and deportation, and continue to live in northern Septentriona then under Thyatian dominion), while another culture (like, say, M-Armenians) could be placed in the Scars region, i.e. in the smaller plateaus and mountain ranges of the central IoD, between Kendach, West and East Portage. Another Asyidhi-descended population are the Aelanns of Caerdwicca and lower Meridiona region, which are a sort of M-Picts. This is a bit odd, becouse we have a Pictish people born out of M-Semite population, but it's useful to explain the difference between the Aelanns (M-Picts) that settle in those areas and the Caerdas (M-Scots) that later invade the region and generate the M-Scottish culture of modern Caerdwicca and Furmenglaive. The northern IoD is also invaded, from BC 2000 on, by Antalian-descended tribes from Norwold and Heldann. These tribes settle mostly in the Helskir region (they're the Helska) and in northern Westrourke (they're the Oskmans). There they generate a sort of M-Norwegian culture, which explains the Westrourkian names we find in TM2. Around BC 1100 the Nithians come to the IoD, founding Thothia and conquering other areas. DotE says that Trikelios, Ekto and even Dunadale and Deirdren are Thothian foundations. However, they could even be previous settlements then conquered by expanding Thothians, and later renamed in another fashion. IMHO there's not a great need to have another M-Greek culture in the eastern IoD, and could be better to explain the origin of Ekto's and Trikelios' names in another way (perhaps they origin from a wrong Alphatian spelling of the Thothian names of the cities, or from another native culture at all). Humanoids should come from Norwold during the Dark Age of the Antalians (after Loark's invasions), say around BC 1000. Perhaps some humanoid tribes learned the basis of seafaring from Antalians. This explains not only their travel to the IoD, but also how could they be find in Limn (see Limn description in DotE). Adding Thyatians, Alphatians and some Ostland immigrants here and there, we have a AC 1000 IoD settled more or less as follows: * DUNADALE: ancient M-Celtic (Wales or Cornwall) culture, later in part conquered by Nithians/Thothians and then by Alphatians. Probably the coast is more cosmopolitan, with Alphatian culture prevalent, while the interior of the country is more anchored to ancient M-Celtic roots. We know that Alphatians once gave the "confederacy" status to Dunadale, and that the confederacy then fell into decline (see one of the library hints in M5). I placed the rise of the Confederacy at the end of the 6th century AC; the confederacy manages to riunite the "whole" Dunadale (including norther Westrourke, see again Dunadale description in M5), then the country fell into decline when Thyatis was able to reconquer the norther Westrourke region under Gabrionius IV (beginning of 10th century AC). The inland "bogs" should be inhabited by humanoids and other monsters. * CAERDWICCA and FURMENGLAIVE: M-Scottish culture, with roots in ancient Asyidhi-descended Aelannian culture (M-Picts), then conquered by the Caerda and turned to M-Scot culture. Influx of Northman immigrants from 6th century AC on, which transformed the local culture in M-Scottish. I labeled the whole region of Caerdwicca, southern Meridiona and Furmenglaive "Caerdania" and I gave it a detailed history of indipendence and wars until modern age - around 8th century AC, when the region fell under Thyatian dominion. If you're interested, I can translate it in English along with the accompaining map and post the whole thing of the boards. * EKTO and TRIKELIOS: Ancient settlements, perhaps from a native culture, or from Nithians/Thothians themselves. Place for a culture of the Middle East, perhaps Phoenicians, Jews, or whichever population of M-Anatolia or M-Syria we can think of. Later conquered by Alphatians, and at times also by Thyatians (Thyatian language spreads here also, see PWAs). * GREAT ESCARPMENT: unknown, except for some ancient Thothian ruins and settlement, aranean and elven presence. Perhaps there's enough room to place here some forgotten people (Mishler's Stone Folk and perhaps barbarian descendants of the Asyidhi or, even better, the Oltecindians). * HELSKIR: ancient Antalian population, then conquered by Alphatians after BC 1000. Lots of immigrants from other places, mostly Heldann, Norwold, Northern Reaches, Thyatis and Alphatia. * KENDACH-WEST/EAST PORTAGE: Place of Teizhel culture (M-Bretons), then conquered by Alphatians and Thyatians. In the central plateaus region I planned to put an M-Armenian culture (Asyidhi-descended). Marco Dalmonte, in his Codex Immortalis made Kendach the site of the M-Arthurian myth, with Halav in search of Immortality being M-King Arthur, and his sword Caledfwylch being M-Excalibur. The costal areas both of West and East Portage should nevertheless be very cosmopolitan (Alphatian, Thyatian and elsewhere immigrants). * MERIDIONA: Continuing M-Celtiberian culture in the north, then turning to M-proto-Scots (Caerda) in the central forests. I called the southern steppes "Hennonia", and they should be inhabited by semi-nomadic tribes (according to M5), perhaps of Asyidhi or Oltecindian origin. The southern forests of this region belong to the M-Scots cultural area. * REDSTONE: M-Irish culture, then conquered by Thyatians. * SEPTENTRIONA: In the northern part of this region an Asyidhi-descended culture could survive, mostly in the steppes and in the badlands. Perhaps they're descendants of the Aseni, ancestors of the Alasiyans. In the Shadow Coast, where the forests begin to take place, M-Celtiberian culture prevails, with Thyatian overlapping. Place for dark sorcerers, monsters and undead also. * THOTHIA: ancient Nithian settlement over Asyidhi-descended native population. Presence of rakastas in the eastern steppes. Probably the short-lived "empire" of Thothia (eastern IoD and Alatians) fought a war against the mother empire (Nithia) when the latter turned to Entropic worship. Later conquered by Alphatians (after BC 500), but probably again indipendent for some time (the Treaty of Edairo is signed in the NEUTRAL city of Edairo, remember?). Culturally Thothia should be similar to Tolemaic Egypt, that is ancient Egyptian culture with implants of foreign (Alphatian) customs and ways. * WESTROURKE: ancient M-Celtic culture, then occupied by Oskmans. Conquered various times by Thyatis and Alphatia, recently seeing a wave of Ostland immigrants. The northern part of the country (north and west Dust Reaches region) is more M-Norwegian in culture, while the central and south region (where Westrouke city lays) preserved hints of the original Celtic mood. That's all in sum. With a little time I can translate into English also the more detailed history of Caerdania (Caerdwicca + Furmenglaive + southern Meridiona), and post some detailed 8-m maps of the region.
Wilhelm_ 03-31-08, 12:04 AM	First of all, Zendrolion, please, take a look at this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=999417) Minaea is described as a land of pirates. The closest RW parallel I can think of is Cilicia. I was thinking about Bactria because of the M-Scythians, the Jennites, are just north of them. But as you pointed, Minaea also should include a piratical side, and it could also include elements from Cilicia :) As to how the M-Greeks arrived at Ekto and Trikelios, one can imagine that they escaped the fall of the OW Milenian Empire by sea. See below :) As far as I recall, didn't someone say that Bruce Heard said that the Minaeans were sea-going M-Picts? Does anyone know the source for this? Hm, no idea, sorry and a branch of the Oltec Oltecindians. Looks like this name I made up really picked up, lol ;) These populations settle among the less numerous Asyidhi. The Asyidhi in particular could have given birth to M-Middle Oriental cultures (Phoenicians, Jews, ancient Syria and Anatolia, etc.) in the southern and eastern part of the IoD. Shouldn't Taymora be the M-Phoenicia? Pehaps the Taymorans are a Asyidhi people? while another culture (like, say, M-Armenians) could be placed in the Scars region, i.e. in the smaller plateaus and mountain ranges of the central IoD, between Kendach, West and East Portage. IIRC, Christian Constantin already made a M-Armenians for the Kavkaz region of Hule. Is there a connection between both groups? :) This is a bit odd, becouse we have a Pictish people born out of M-Semite population, but it's useful to explain the difference between the Aelanns (M-Picts) that settle in those areas and the Caerdas (M-Scots) that later invade the region and generate the M-Scottish culture of modern Caerdwicca and Furmenglaive. I don't know much about them, but I always imagined them almost as "amerindians" with pale skin. I guess this could work as well :) Around BC 1100 the Nithians come to the IoD, founding Thothia and conquering other areas. DotE says that Trikelios, Ekto and even Dunadale and Deirdren are Thothian foundations. However, they could even be previous settlements then conquered by expanding Thothians, and later renamed in another fashion. Indeed. But if the thothians conquered them, these should be the original names then, I guess (and the nithians may had a different name, that were forgotten, or erased by the Spell of Oblivion). IMHO there's not a great need to have another M-Greek culture in the eastern IoD, and could be better to explain the origin of Ekto's and Trikelios' names in another way (perhaps they origin from a wrong Alphatian spelling of the Thothian names of the cities, or from another native culture at all). I don't think that we indeed need another M-Greek culture. But I think that the original Doulakki-Traldar culture may be larger than we originally thought :) See below :) Furmenglaive "Caerdania" and I gave it a detailed history of indipendence and wars until modern age - around 8th century AC, when the region fell under Thyatian dominion. If you're interested, I can translate it in English along with the accompaining map and post the whole thing of the boards. ... That's all in sum. With a little time I can translate into English also the more detailed history of Caerdania (Caerdwicca + Furmenglaive + southern Meridiona), and post some detailed 8-m maps of the region. Please do ;) Here's my idea: Instead of having the origins of the M-Greek at the KW, why don't place them somewhere between the IoD and Minaea in the first place? There are many greek sounding places between those places (Aegos/Aegopoli and many others... even Bellissaria and Alphatia *1), that seens to be a good hint for this. Probably the western colonies of these primitive M-Greeks (BC 2000) were what's now Ekto and Trikelios, and there may even had been some other city-states at there as well. The expanding Nithian Empire (pehaps a mix of the Asydhi neathar with remainings of the azcan empire?) met these M-Greeks anddominated it, peacifully sometimes, but not always. Those city-states who refused to join the empire were razed and it's population brought to Nithia as slaves, and that's the origin of the Traldars as we know then. They were kept as slaves for many years (c. 250, likely) until they found a way out, entering the now empty lands where once we had Taymora (modern Karameikos). It's possible that this mimics RW israelites and egyptians pehaps even with a M-Moses, magical plagues and a magical path open through the Altan Tepes? Another M-Greek group arrived some time later at the KW (after BC 1500), pehaps invited by the nithians in order to settle the wilderness that existed at modern Thyatis (inhabited by the Toralai) and Darokin. They became later the Doulakki. When the alphatians arrived in BC 1000, they absorved the remainings of the original M-Greek that lived at modern Alphatia and Belissaria, leaving "intact" only Minaea and Ekto/Trikelios. By the same time, the Traldar civilization is destroyed, but the Milenian civilization is created in Davania. So, I guess we would have this: -Original M-Greeks: Mycenaean Greek civilization -Traldar: Possibly another Mycenaean Greece, since HW suggest this. OTOH, oddly HW traldars don't seens to have any Nithiar nor Hutaakan influence... -thyatian Doulakki/daro Doulakki: Classical greeks, from Italy and Greece. Ekto, Trikelios and the other eastern colonies also "evolved" into the Classical period by this time (until BC 1000). -Milenians and the remainings of the Doulakki and eastern colonies (and nithian colonies after BC 500): Hellenistic world. *1- BTW, IIRC, sometime ago there was a thread about the RW inspiration for Alphatia. Does anyone have a good suggestion for it? I think that since, IIRC, we don't have any M-Minoan civilization (Giulio Caroletti's idea for Minaea as Crete (http://pandius.com/min_min.html) is quite interesting, but would ruin my idea, lol ;) ), pehaps the original Alphatian culture could be like it? It would match theidea of Minoan civilization as the inspiration for the myth of Atlantis, and this also would give us a M-Minoan civilization (even if modern Alphatia is quite different, pehaps they originally were like it). Alphatia as the main local Immortal matches the minoan religion, and is interesting to keep them close to M-Greeks as well. So, this would somewhat end the idea of Alphatia as a whole as M-Babylon, since only the Shedu of the cover support this, AFAIK. But Ambur is clrealy a M-Babylon, and the Shedu is possibly a reference to that.
Zendrolion 03-31-08, 04:35 AM	First of all, Zendrolion, please, take a look at this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=999417) :embarrass Sorry, I never realized someone had been talking about my etnographic work here... I still hadn't posted any part of it here becouse it was not complete, but now I see that's time to work on it again and finish it! ;) I was thinking about Bactria because of the M-Scythians, the Jennites, are just north of them. But as you pointed, Minaea also should include a piratical side, and it could also include elements from Cilicia :) IMHO Minaeans could be seen as generic seafaring-pirate Greeks - think not only about Cilicia, but also Delo and the slave markets of Aegean Sea during Hellenistic age, say between Alexander and Roman conquest. Looks like this name I made up really picked up, lol ;) Well, the work of yours and Agathokles on the Oltecs was so well-made that it would have been a pity not to use the WHOLE of it! :) Hope you don't mind, 'couse I really appreciate what you've written together. :bow: Shouldn't Taymora be the M-Phoenicia? Pehaps the Taymorans are a Asyidhi people? That, I mean Taymora as M-Phoenicia, is one of the possible take on that matter. Personally I prefer to consider the Taymora as M-proto-Greeks, which then are in part assimilated by the Nithian Traldars which then convert their culture to an M-Micenean one. I was then thinking to have the Taymora as part of the Dravharian ethnic group (alongside Urduks and Dravi), and arriving to the KW from north-west around BC 2500. The M-Greek culture should span from there. IIRC, Christian Constantin already made a M-Armenians for the Kavkaz region of Hule. Is there a connection between both groups? :) Yes, I know, but I don't see any possible connection. Moreover, the IoD "Armenians" could be only a people with a similar lifestyle, not necessarily the ethnic group of the M-Armenian themselves. Perhaps one could choose some elements from ancient Armenia (the one with Artaxata and Tigranocerta as capitals). Indeed. But if the thothians conquered them, these should be the original names then, I guess (and the nithians may had a different name, that were forgotten, or erased by the Spell of Oblivion). That's true, but remember that Thothia wasn't erased from memory, as wasn't any of the Egyptian-sounding names we see not only in Thothia, but also in Aegos and Aeria. Please do ;) I will try to translate it as soon as possible. Moreover, as the geographic part of the gazetteer is incomplete, someone could help me to add some details to the whole work. :D Here's my idea: Instead of having the origins of the M-Greek at the KW, why don't place them somewhere between the IoD and Minaea in the first place? But we can't forget that, canonwise, Minaeans are descendants of Milenians that fled from their collapsing empire and reached south-western Skothar. We could also presume that some of them even reached the Pearl Islands, Alatian and Bellissarian shores, but not many of them (I don't think these people fleeing Milenia were too numerous - nor was their migration fleet). Remember also that not anything that sounds Greek IS really Greek also in the RW. Zagros Mounts, for example. ;) *1- BTW, IIRC, sometime ago there was a thread about the RW inspiration for Alphatia. Does anyone have a good suggestion for it? I continue to stay true to the Babylonian version. Moreover I'm thinking to use some materials from the "Atlantis: the Second Age" RPG - which features the mythical Atlantis to which, it seems, Alphatia is inspired. Last but not least, as Asyidhi are M-Semites/Hamites in my version, and as they settle also in Bellissaria before coming to the IoD, there's more than one reason to characterize the Bellissarian cultures as Mesopotamian and Middle-Oriental ones (Hurrites, Babylonians, Akkad, etc.). I still haven't delved so much into this matter, but as it seems that the Enduks are the source of the M-Mesopotamian cultures, there could be a link with them as well. And the Alphatian could have taken some "Babylonian" traits from their dominion over the Bellissarian cultures... Lot of things to think about. :plotting: So, next thing I'll try to do swiftly is the translation of my work on Caerdania. Some days will be needed.
Wilhelm_ 03-31-08, 07:46 AM	:embarrass Sorry, I never realized someone had been talking about my etnographic work here... No prob ;) IMHO Minaeans could be seen as generic seafaring-pirate Greeks - think not only about Cilicia, but also Delo and the slave markets of Aegean Sea during Hellenistic age, say between Alexander and Roman conquest. I agree that we could use other !greek pirates! influences here. OTOH, I think that doesn't mean that we can't also make it M-Hellenistic Bactria, with sea and pirates ;) Well, the work of yours and Agathokles on the Oltecs was so well-made that it would have been a pity not to use the WHOLE of it! :) Hope you don't mind, 'couse I really appreciate what you've written together. :bow: Thanks! :blush: BTW, we still need to finish that one, updating it with the info we have now (like the KW as the north pole and your ideas for placing each oltec civilization) and what we wrote about each civilization. :) That, I mean Taymora as M-Phoenicia, is one of the possible take on that matter. Personally I prefer to consider the Taymora as M-proto-Greeks, which then are in part assimilated by the Nithian Traldars which then convert their culture to an M-Micenean one. But since they already had a well estabilished civilization before becoming "true greeks", what should they be? Pehaps they're the M-Minoan? OTOH, they could still be M-Phoenicia and later be adsorved by the M-Greek peoples, helping them to form their culture (like their alphabet). Yes, I know, but I don't see any possible connection. Moreover, the IoD "Armenians" could be only a people with a similar lifestyle, not necessarily the ethnic group of the M-Armenian themselves. Perhaps one could choose some elements from ancient Armenia (the one with Artaxata and Tigranocerta as capitals). I think it's a good idea, then :) I will try to translate it as soon as possible. Moreover, as the geographic part of the gazetteer is incomplete, someone could help me to add some details to the whole work. :D Let me know if I can help with anything :) But we can't forget that, canonwise, Minaeans are descendants of Milenians that fled from their collapsing empire and reached south-western Skothar. We could also presume that some of them even reached the Pearl Islands, Alatian and Bellissarian shores, but not many of them (I don't think these people fleeing Milenia were too numerous - nor was their migration fleet). Indeed. Pehaps the original colonies (if there were any) at Minaea didn't last, but the M-Greek peoples never forget about the existence of Skothar and when Milenia collapsed, they fled to what they believe as the last "free" land (not dominated by any empires or barbarians) on Mystara. Remember also that not anything that sounds Greek IS really Greek also in the RW. Zagros Mounts, for example. ;) Hehe, indeed :) But still most of the names that sound Greek (and some that even don't) comes from Greek ;) But i agree that, at least, the word "Alphatia" may be an example of that. Or pehaps it is the "greek" version of the original name for old Alphatia (pehaps something closer to the word "Alphaks"). I continue to stay true to the Babylonian version. But is there anything else supporting this idea besides that Shedu and their mystical ways? :) Moreover I'm thinking to use some materials from the "Atlantis: the Second Age" RPG - which features the mythical Atlantis to which, it seems, Alphatia is inspired. And how does Atlantis look like at this game? Last but not least, as Asyidhi are M-Semites/Hamites in my version, and as they settle also in Bellissaria before coming to the IoD, there's more than one reason to characterize the Bellissarian cultures as Mesopotamian and Middle-Oriental ones (Hurrites, Babylonians, Akkad, etc.). I guess there's nothing against this idea, so it's a good idea ;) Ambur also should be part of this culture, even being somewhat far from Belissaria. I still haven't delved so much into this matter, but as it seems that the Enduks are the source of the M-Mesopotamian cultures Possibly, but not necessarely. IIRC, their language, for example, was inspired to then by Ixion. there could be a link with them as well. Yes, i think there should be a link, indeed :) And the Alphatian could have taken some "Babylonian" traits from their dominion over the Bellissarian cultures... Which traits, exactly? :)
Zendrolion 03-31-08, 04:40 PM	But since they already had a well estabilished civilization before becoming "true greeks", what should they be? Pehaps they're the M-Minoan? OTOH, they could still be M-Phoenicia and later be adsorved by the M-Greek peoples, helping them to form their culture (like their alphabet). Both are good possibilities IMO. That is: 1) Taymora as proto-Greeks (M-early- or middle-Helladic people, say 3000-1500 before Christ); this could mean that their culture has Minoan traits as well. In this case it'd be better to have them derived from the Neathar Dravharians, an M-Indoeuropean group (M-Indoiranic in this case - I know Greeks were not Indoiranics, but we should try to use what we have), and have them coming in the KW around BC 2500 from western Brun (together with Urduks); or 2) Taymora as M-Phoenicians; in this case perhaps it'd be better to have them descended from M-Semites (Phoenicians were Semites), that is Asyidhi present in the Isle of Dawn. They could have migrated around BC 2500 through the Redstone landbridge, arriving in the KW. In both cases they could have spawned the M-Micenean civilization of the Traldar after the survivors of the cataclism that destroyed their cities in BC 2000 were asborbed by the "Egyptian" Traldars. (The story of the cataclysm has indeed great links with Minoan history... ) Let me know if I can help with anything :) Thank you! :) I mostly need ideas for the descriptions of places and NPCs. But we'll see once I post some materials. But is there anything else supporting this idea besides that Shedu and their mystical ways? :) There's nothing more than that... But it's true that the shedu is the ONLY thing that leads the Alphatian culture toward a RW culture! :P And how does Atlantis look like at this game? I have still to read it in detail, but there are plenty of informations about government, culture, and daily life. Basically, Atlantis continent is divided into many large kingdoms, each with its own customs. Even the continent's map is similar to Alphatia's one! :eek: Which traits, exactly? :) Actually, only the idea of the shedu as a venerable creature... :P ;)
Wilhelm_ 04-01-08, 01:14 AM	In both cases they could have spawned the M-Micenean civilization of the Traldar after the survivors of the cataclism that destroyed their cities in BC 2000 were asborbed by the "Egyptian" Traldars. (The story of the cataclysm has indeed great links with Minoan history... ) Do you think the Traldars should be a direct offshoot of the neathar Nithians, or two neathar groups shearing the same culture, or even yet the traldars bearing a proto-Greek culture (that, with taymoran culture, will becoe the M-Greek) and direct influence of Nithia? BTW, do you think the nithians should be pure neathar? What about a neathar+azcan mix? It would help explaining a few similarities between both cultures and would also help with the Chochomec civilization (Coyotl lupin breed) becoming the Hutaakans some time later (see this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=995546); BTW, this one was inspired by your article at the italian boards (added with a conversion for 3.5 that I did some time ago but never traslated into english) ;) ) There's nothing more than that... But it's true that the shedu is the ONLY thing that leads the Alphatian culture toward a RW culture! :P LOL, indeed! Well, at least, Ambur should be a M-Babylon, Bellissaria could be as well (I don't know much about neither Bellissaria nor the babylonian civilization to be able to give any significant help here). I have still to read it in detail, but there are plenty of informations about government, culture, and daily life. Basically, Atlantis continent is divided into many large kingdoms, each with its own customs. Even the continent's map is similar to Alphatia's one! :eek: LOL! But somewhat I already suspect that they would be similar :) Is there any RW cultural inspiration at there? Pehaps ancient Crete? ;) BTW, looks like there's actually nothing in canon saying that Nimmurian language was inspired by Ixion (even if the Enduks were explicitly created by him). So,that link is indeed necessary (but it was necessary anyway, it's just that now we don't have even this excuse for making anything different :) ). Also, IIRC, the M-Sumerians (Pitchans) comes directly from the Oltecs, and there are some common traits between all M-Babylon and them, like step pyramids and ziggurats and interest in astronomy. BTW, Ambur also is crazy about theatres and acting, could this mean that they have also a M-Greek influence? Another thing we have to consider is that the Yezchamenid Empire also have many of these cultures we're talking about here, like one more M-Babylonians and another M-Phoenicians.
Zendrolion 04-01-08, 05:02 AM	Do you think the Traldars should be a direct offshoot of the neathar Nithians, or two neathar groups shearing the same culture, or even yet the traldars bearing a proto-Greek culture (that, with taymoran culture, will becoe the M-Greek) and direct influence of Nithia? BTW, do you think the nithians should be pure neathar? What about a neathar+azcan mix? From canon we know that (1) Traldars are Nithians (it's said in many sources "the Nithian clan of Traldar" or something similar), and (2) Nithians are an Oltec-Neathar mix (from HW). We also know from PC3 that: the few surviving Taymora fled the area and settled farther north in the present-day lands of Karameikos. They were later absorbed by the Traldar when they arrived in the area. (PC3, "The Sea Peoples Book", p. 41). This is a great hint becouse it's useful to explain just how the Egyptian Traldar (the Nithian clan I mean, that settles Karameikos in BC 1500) can develop a Micenean culture. The Hutaakan influence should also be taken into account, but more by a technical point of view (bronze technology, stonecutting, architecture, and so on). Thus my take on this matter is that the Traldars become M-Micenean after the absorption of the Taymoran survivors. Regarding the Nithians instead, I have them as a mix of Oltecs (post-Azcans indeed) and Neathars. They're basically an Asyidhi people (thus M-Hamite) that moves from the IoD to the KW between BC 2500 and BC 2000, settling in the Nithia basin. There, they absorb and intermingle with local tribes of post-Azcans fled from the collapse of their empire in the west (the way these post-Azcans intervene in the bloodline of various people - from Ethengars to Nithians and Makai - is rather complex; perhaps it'd be better to open a new topic on this issue, as we're already OT from Havard's first post... :embarrass ). Is there any RW cultural inspiration at there? Pehaps ancient Crete? ;) The layout of Atlantidean culture seems to be built upon a "more-or-less-Greek/Middle-oriental/Egyptian" background. More hints to Plato's tale that to RW cultures, however. But more on this when I'll have read the Atlantis manual. ;) Another thing we have to consider is that the Yezchamenid Empire also have many of these cultures we're talking about here, like one more M-Babylonians and another M-Phoenicians. Of course, but I've to say that I harvest some doubts about the whole Yezchamenid thing, becouse some canon material (minor canon, indeed - like "Tortle of Purple Sage" adventure in an early Dungeon Magazine number) seems to conflict with some areas used by Mattias in his - nevertheless excellent - work about Yezchamen. In my ethnografic works I've placed the Pitchans in the Immortal's Arm (following Mattias' history of Yezchamen) so far, but then I've stopped becouse I've to rethink about the whole Yezchamen issue and see if really it wouldn't be better to have them (or their successor cultures at least) moved elsewhere (i.e. Bellissaria and near lands). Perhaps it'd be also possibile to find a way to preserve both ideas.
Wilhelm_ 04-01-08, 07:03 AM	From canon we know that (1) Traldars are Nithians (it's said in many sources "the Nithian clan of Traldar" or something similar) I always assumed that this was just a way to link two classical cultures that no longer exists at earlier products (that weren't too concerned with feasibility) and that were kept unchanged by later products (like other odd things, such as Marilenev having only 500 souls in 900 AC and 70000 in 1000 AC!). It's not that I disagree to stay true to what canon says as much as possible, but we would have to change then so much, not only culturally but also their appearence (and as you said, PC3 says that there're only a few taymoran survivors, not enough to change their appearance to M-Greeks, especially if Taymora is M-Phoenicia!). Shouldn't they be another neathar group, instead? And assuming that the Traldars were indeed nithians one day, what would be the connection between the traldars and the doulakki? Regarding the Nithians instead, I have them as a mix of Oltecs (post-Azcans indeed) and Neathars. They're basically an Asyidhi people (thus M-Hamite) that moves from the IoD to the KW between BC 2500 and BC 2000, settling in the Nithia basin. There, they absorb and intermingle with local tribes of post-Azcans fled from the collapse of their empire in the west (the way these post-Azcans intervene in the bloodline of various people - from Ethengars to Nithians and Makai - is rather complex; :) That's basically my idea about it as well. The only problem remais that if the KW was the original north pole, the azcans lived in a quite cold weather instead of a tropical one, and if Lake Ansorak would be frozen and couldn1t be the original Lake Chitlaloc! perhaps it'd be better to open a new topic on this issue, as we're already OT from Havard's first post... :embarrass ). Well, we're ultimately discussing about Ekto and Trikelios cultures ;) But it would be an interesting topic, anyway :) The layout of Atlantidean culture seems to be built upon a "more-or-less-Greek/Middle-oriental/Egyptian" background. More hints to Plato's tale that to RW cultures, however. But more on this when I'll have read the Atlantis manual. ;) Ok! :) Of course, but I've to say that I harvest some doubts about the whole Yezchamenid thing, becouse some canon material (minor canon, indeed - like "Tortle of Purple Sage" adventure in an early Dungeon Magazine number) seems to conflict with some areas used by Mattias in his - nevertheless excellent - work about Yezchamen. In my ethnografic works I've placed the Pitchans in the Immortal's Arm (following Mattias' history of Yezchamen) so far, but then I've stopped becouse I've to rethink about the whole Yezchamen issue and see if really it wouldn't be better to have them (or their successor cultures at least) moved elsewhere (i.e. Bellissaria and near lands). Perhaps it'd be also possibile to find a way to preserve both ideas. Hmmm, I think that's indeed an great idea. I mean, I also think his work excellent, but somewhat out of place (despite of Nimmur, Eshu and Herath also being at there...). Place it at Bellissaria (or other undeveloped alphatian region) is a great idea, for it would give Yezchamenid a better place, "closer to where action is" ;) But what would we have at there, replacing Yezchamenid, then?
havard 04-01-08, 07:46 AM	And assuming that the Traldars were indeed nithians one day, what would be the connection between the traldars and the doulakki? IMO being "Nithian" could be a fairly broad category. Averoignians and Boldavians are Glantrians afterall. The Traldar could easily be ethnically different from the common Nithian, but originally culturally dominated by them. The Doulakki are non-canon and IMO they could just as easily be referred to as Traldar, although I guess they were the Traldar who never went to Traladara. That means we are talking about fringe groups living in the Nithian Empire, heavily influenced by Nithian culture, but differing from the Nithians to some extent both culturally and etnically. The idea of the Taymorans being based on Phoenicians was new to me. I have mainly used Mystaros' material for my Taymorans, and IMC the main thing about them is that they were evil. But if this is used, perhaps Ekto and Trikelios are areas where Taymorans settled before they became evil? Alternately we can simply assume that there was a greater Ancient Mediterrean cultural group that lived on the outskirts of the Nithian Empire producing both the Traladarans and other civilizations on their borders. The exact origins of Minnae can be debated, but it seems clear that they are somehow linked to this as well, either directly or via the Milennian Empire. Also, through the Milennians we have the distant amazons of Pellatan... Havard
havard 04-01-08, 07:50 AM	As far as I recall, didn't someone say that Bruce Heard said that the Minaeans were sea-going M-Picts? Does anyone know the source for this? IIRC this was mentioned as an idea by Bruce in one of the Question collumn installments of the VotPA in Dragon. However, the Almanacs do not support this. OTOH, Minnaea is a fairly large region, so it should IMO support a wider range of cultures... Havard
Wilhelm_ 04-01-08, 12:26 PM	IMO being "Nithian" could be a fairly broad category. Averoignians and Boldavians are Glantrians afterall. Or kerendans and hattians, that are both thyatians :) The Traldar could easily be ethnically different from the common Nithian, but originally culturally dominated by them. :) The Doulakki are non-canon and IMO they could just as easily be referred to as Traldar, although I guess they were the Traldar who never went to Traladara. I never underestood the exactly difference between the traldars and doulakki as well. We could use this definition, which is the one I always used as well, believing that the different name is just because they're M-Greeks living where they were not supposed to be according to canon. OTOH, GAZ1 says that traldars also settled in Darokin, that is outside Traladara (even if it's just Selenica and we have doulakki for the rest of Darokin, that definition is proven wrong anyway). Shouldn't they all be traldars then, even if in Thyatis/Ylaruam? The idea of the Taymorans being based on Phoenicians was new to me. I have mainly used Mystaros' material for my Taymorans, and IMC the main thing about them is that they were evil. But that's basically the idea, they're necromancers :) http://www.pandius.com/taymor.html But if this is used, perhaps Ekto and Trikelios are areas where Taymorans settled before they became evil? That could be, especially if we bring Yezchamenid to the alphatian territories; the Yivj doesn't have any strong necromantic cultural influence. I'm not against having Ekto and Trikelios as modern versions of Phoenicia, but I still think that their greek names (and the greek names that we can find at the Alatians) give a too strong hint that we had in the past M-Greeks around these places :)
Hugin 04-01-08, 02:26 PM	The Doulakki are non-canon and IMO they could just as easily be referred to as Traldar, although I guess they were the Traldar who never went to Traladara. That means we are talking about fringe groups living in the Nithian Empire, heavily influenced by Nithian culture, but differing from the Nithians to some extent both culturally and etnically. As I understand it, the Doulakki and Traldar are really the divergent people groups that emerged from a common base-group. We've always referred to that base as Traldar but I think they would likely have had another name (and likely a more 'Nithian'-style culture; for now I call them 'Nithian Traldar'. Once they exited Nithia they quickly developed their own identities through environment, hardship, and leadership. The Doulakki integrated with other peoples to eventually become the Darokinians, but this took place mainly in the Streel Plains of West-Central Darokin. I've written a history regarding the eastern Doulakki, however their story ends nearly in extinction, with the exception of those who remained in or very close to Selenica. In my eyes, this is another reason why Selenica is so distinct; the Doulakki there remained more or less intact and perhaps maintaining Nithian Traldar culture far longer than the southern Traldar who found themselves in a much different environment and exposed to the collapsing of Tamora. Plus, there was still the trickle of contact between this region and the people of the Alasiyan Basin. Finally, the dwarves of Rockhome also had an influence on the Doulakki here.
havard 04-01-08, 02:48 PM	Or kerendans and hattians, that are both thyatians :) Exactly! :) I think many of our problems are solved if we accept that the Nithians too, were a fairly mixed bunch. I never underestood the exactly difference between the traldars and doulakki as well. We could use this definition, which is the one I always used as well, believing that the different name is just because they're M-Greeks living where they were not supposed to be according to canon. OTOH, GAZ1 says that traldars also settled in Darokin, that is outside Traladara (even if it's just Selenica and we have doulakki for the rest of Darokin, that definition is proven wrong anyway). Shouldn't they all be traldars then, even if in Thyatis/Ylaruam? I don't mind the term too much if we basically just accept that they were pretty much the same thing culturally and ethnically in the Nithian era, and then developed along different paths later in history. The Traldar went through some fairly dramatic cultural changes after settling in Traladara for instance. Has the ethnic background of the Nithians been established? Were they Oltec or Neathar? Perhaps these fringe groups (Traldar/Doulakki/Taymorans) were closer etnically to the Neathar? But that's basically the idea, they're necromancers :) http://www.pandius.com/taymor.html Yeah, that was my assumption. Having them another "ancient mediterrean" culture works for me though. That could be, especially if we bring Yezchamenid to the alphatian territories; the Yivj doesn't have any strong necromantic cultural influence. I'm not against having Ekto and Trikelios as modern versions of Phoenicia, but I still think that their greek names (and the greek names that we can find at the Alatians) give a too strong hint that we had in the past M-Greeks around these places :) You lost me on the Yezchamenid and Yivj there. I agree with you on the Greek sounding names though. There could certainly be M-Greek influences there even today, but it is nice to differentiate a little between all of these places. The origins of the M-Greek names could date back either to a)Fringe cultures of the Nithian Empire, b)Seafarig Traldar (before, or during the Beastman Invasion), or c)part of the group that left the Milennian Empire to settle in Minnaea or earlier Milennian colonization (between BC1000-BC100). Havard
Wilhelm_ 04-01-08, 05:51 PM	As I understand it, the Doulakki and Traldar are really the divergent people groups that emerged from a common base-group. Sure, but the problem I'm having is to see what's the difference between them :) They live so close and until BC 1000 probably have a lot of contact (after that, however, this "hellenic world" will start to break apart, being completely shattered by BC 500), so I can't see much point for having many "M-Greeks" living at the same region. We've always referred to that base as Traldar but I think they would likely have had another name (and likely a more 'Nithian'-style culture; for now I call them 'Nithian Traldar'. I just found out that Zendrolion is calling them Thelles at his Ethnografic Table for the neathar peoples. In my eyes, this is another reason why Selenica is so distinct; the Doulakki there remained more or less intact and perhaps maintaining Nithian Traldar culture far longer than the southern Traldar who found themselves in a much different environment and exposed to the collapsing of Tamora. Plus, there was still the trickle of contact between this region and the people of the Alasiyan Basin. Finally, the dwarves of Rockhome also had an influence on the Doulakki here. That's an interesting idea, but it would give Salonikos many traits from different arts of the "M-Greek world", as well from many parts of the nithian Empire and it's neighbours (such as the dwarves), as it lies between those places. Exactly! :) I think many of our problems are solved if we accept that the Nithians too, were a fairly mixed bunch. Well, at least a Azcan/Neathar mix, for sure ;) But since the Nithia Empire was quite large, it necessarely dominated many other peoples, and not all of them though thenselves as conquered, but as nithians themselves (possibly modern Thothians also basically feel the same about the Alphatian Empire). And this could lead to the "mistake" of calling M-Greeks as "a nithian clan", even not being true nithians (M-Egyptians). I don't mind the term too much if we basically just accept that they were pretty much the same thing culturally and ethnically in the Nithian era, and then developed along different paths later in history. The Traldar went through some fairly dramatic cultural changes after settling in Traladara for instance. Sure. But before BC 1000, I can't see much difference between Traldars of Karameikos, Thyatis, Darokin, IoD and the Alatians (and, why not, south Alphatia), except for the fact that they had the help of the Hutaakans in their past (probably they were the first M-Greek to atempt to settle at the KW, M-Greek of Darokin and Thyatis arriving some time later) and had some contact with this high advanced people until BC 1000. Has the ethnic background of the Nithians been established? Were they Oltec or Neathar? AFAIK, both :) Perhaps these fringe groups (Traldar/Doulakki/Taymorans) were closer etnically to the Neathar? Indeed they are. If you imagine Taymora as M-Phoenicia, then they should be Asydhi neathar (M-Semitic people), while if they were M-proto-Greek, they should be Thelles neathar, and if M-Minoan, they may be something else (also Thelles? pehaps Asydhi?). Yeah, that was my assumption. Having them another "ancient mediterrean" culture works for me though. :) You lost me on the Yezchamenid and Yivj there. What I meant is that Adrian Mattias' Yivj also have a M-Phoenicia culture, while the Yezchamenid is a M-Persian Empire (Darsia should be Persia, and I think Uvaraz may be M-Medes; Hattas are the M-Hattians (not related with the germanic people of Thyatis) and/or M-Hittites; I think Zrakan is M-Afghanistan; Mebirush, Chura and Midan are possibly M-Babylonia and M-Assyria; and I guess Draya represents M-Bedouin and may well be Alasiyans; Pazarkan have pegataurs, but I'm not sure about their culture, and I have no idea about Dredze and Adilli (or even if Adilli is part of Yezchamenid)). It's a great work, but somewhat "out of place", I guess. It would be quite easier if Yezchamenid exists east of the KW. BTW, I think Esterhold is even better than Belissaria, since we could also use the Jennites if necessary, and would finally develop this almost empty, undeveloped part of the setting. But Yezchamenid under Alphatia probably would be more like the Parthian Empire, with hellenistic influences. Assuming that Yezchamenid exists east of the KW, then only Nimmur/Eshu and Herath would have this problem. But herathian culture may had come from trade with Taymora (the araneas mimic any powerful civilization they met, and they probably had Otzil oltec (M-Maya) and Nithia cultures as well along their history; they probably may be mimicing other powerful cultres as well, but I'll make another thread for this idea ;) ). Nimmur/Eshu may be there thanks to magic; pehaps a magical mechanism like that one at the Ziggurat of Er. It may be a oltec device (using DM idea, that the oltecs had something similar to the elven Rainbow Path) or even wallaran (carnifex/wallaran?). That would also help the return of Minoides, the fallen minotaur and his followers, that we could use for a M-Minoan cultue ;) I agree with you on the Greek sounding names though. There could certainly be M-Greek influences there even today, but it is nice to differentiate a little between all of these places. The origins of the M-Greek names could date back either to a)Fringe cultures of the Nithian Empire, b)Seafarig Traldar (before, or during the Beastman Invasion), or c)part of the group that left the Milennian Empire to settle in Minnaea or earlier Milennian colonization (between BC1000-BC100). I think the first option would be the easiest one to use and the one that allows more cultural differences between modern Ekto and Trikelios to other remains of the M-Greeks. :)
Hugin 04-02-08, 12:41 AM	Sure, but the problem I'm having is to see what's the difference between them :) They live so close and until BC 1000 probably have a lot of contact (after that, however, this "hellenic world" will start to break apart, being completely shattered by BC 500), so I can't see much point for having many "M-Greeks" living at the same region. *My opinion on the matter* :) I think the differences developed quite rapidly. During this time, the Alasiyan Basin and eastern Darokin are both grasslands. The Doulakki lifestyle likely remains as it was before. The Traldars on the other hand find themselves in woodland areas very different from their old home. They had to change to their new environment. Contact would be minimal to none as both groups expanded away from the mountains and settle in family clans. The Doulakki remain predominately roamers with only a few permanent settlements. The Traldar soon learn that the land can sustain them without the need to move around. They also learn that this new land has many more dangers and permanent settlements make defending themselves easier. Trade is sparse although it is more common among the Doulakki due to travel and necessity. The Doulakki should not culturally fit in the M-Greek group whereas the Traldar develop their culture through all the new elements they experience. That's how I see things anyhow. I just found out that Zendrolion is calling them Thelles at his Ethnografic Table for the neathar peoples. Where could I see this, Wilhelm? I'd love to take a look at it. I really enjoy delving into this topic and find myself drawn back to it every now and then. Another thing is that I don't find it necessary to firmly place a Mystaran culture into a RW type or stick to that heavily. I know it's convenient to be able to place a culture into a "M-*****" group but it may not always work, be accurate, or be exclusive.
Wilhelm_ 04-02-08, 01:21 AM	*My opinion on the matter* :) I think the differences developed quite rapidly. During this time, the Alasiyan Basin and eastern Darokin are both grasslands. The Doulakki lifestyle likely remains as it was before. The Traldars on the other hand find themselves in woodland areas very different from there old home. They had to change to their new environment. Contact would be minimal to none as both groups expanded away from the mountains and settle in family clans. The Doulakki remain predominately roamers with only a few permanent settlements. The Traldar soon learn that the land can sustain them without the need to move around. They also learn that this new land has many more dangers and permanent settlements make defending themselves easier. Trade is sparse although it is more common among the Doulakki due to travel and necessity. The Doulakki should not culturally fit in the M-Greek group whereas the Traldar develop their culture through all the new elements they experience. That's how I see things anyhow. Quite interesting idea! This surely gives a good distinction between Traldars and Doulakki. :) Where could I see this, Wilhelm? I'd love to take a look at it. I really enjoy delving into this topic and find myself drawn back to it every now and then. Here (http://www.25edition.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38933&FORUM_ID=98&CAT_ID=23&Topic_Title=Storia+etnografica+di+Mystar a+%28altra+versione%29&Forum_Title=Mystara) :) Another thing is that I don't find it necessary to firmly place a Mystaran culture into a RW type or stick to that heavily. I know it's convenient to be able to place a culture into a "M-*****" group but it may not always work, be accurate, or be exclusive. Sure, I agree with you. There are some mystaran cultures that simply don't have RW exact parallel, like those from the first VotPA issues. Interactions between two RW cultures that shouldn't be interacting (either because they're separated by geography or timeframe) also produces this effect. OTOH, these paralels are great tools for the DMs in order to help him to describes a mystaran culture to his players. And that, BTW, could drastically change the way the players imagine a civilization without really changing a word from canon for that. For example, if I want a more standard "New World" feel for a SC campaign, probably I'd describe the nimmurian ziggurats as step piramyds (pehaps with orcs and other humanoids being sacrificed). And then the M-Babylonia/M-Assyria gives place to a M-"Aztequesque" culture ;) Hausman just gave me a great idea about the idea of Alphatia being M-Atlantis/M-Minoan: while the true alphatians had a M-Atlantlis culture (that I'm still not shure how should be), the Cypris had a M-Minoan culture (he had this idea because this name sounds like RW Cyprus). Another thing that we found out while toying with this idea is that the minoan Snake Goddess' name may be Ariadna. Sounds just like the name of an alphatian empress we know, doesn't it? ;)
Hugin 04-02-08, 09:37 AM	Thanks for the link, Wilhelm! Very useful information and I'll probably babelfish the text for the additional info. It appears we have the same thoughts regarding the use of "M-****" labels but I wasn't sure. They are absolutely useful as long as we don't make them restrictive. :) Hausman has some interesting ideas regarding Alphatia. I'll have to explore that more in depth when I get home but I don't see why it shouldn't work.
Wilhelm_ 04-02-08, 04:18 PM	Thanks for the link, Wilhelm! Very useful information and I'll probably babelfish the text for the additional info. Or you can ask me, or any of the italian guys of the mystaran community ;) It appears we have the same thoughts regarding the use of "M-****" labels but I wasn't sure. They are absolutely useful as long as we don't make them restrictive. :) Indeed :) Hausman has some interesting ideas regarding Alphatia. I'll have to explore that more in depth when I get home but I don't see why it shouldn't work. :) Another thing we were talking about is the origin of the minotaus and enduks, and their cultures (and either if Minoides became part (or created) a M-Minoan culture after leaving Nimmur). Although OHP says that the enduks were the first to be created, I'm not so sure about it... Guys, which do you think would be a better place for Yezchamenid, Bellissaria or Esterhold? Or both?
havard 04-03-08, 03:37 AM	Here (http://www.25edition.it/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38933&FORUM_ID=98&CAT_ID=23&Topic_Title=Storia+etnografica+di+Mystar a+%28altra+versione%29&Forum_Title=Mystara) :) Wow, this is truly an impressive amount of work by Zendriolion there! I found I could make out alot from the charts and maps even if I don't speak (read) Italian. OTOH, I am wondering if including so many non-canon groups in between the canon ones is really neccessary. OTOH, these paralels are great tools for the DMs in order to help him to describes a mystaran culture to his players. And that, BTW, could drastically change the way the players imagine a civilization without really changing a word from canon for that. Yep. I suspect it is difficult even for the most devout Mystara fan to keep track of every ethnic group and have some concept of what they are all about. The M-*** labels are a great help in dealing with that. OTOH, these should not become constraints. It might even be better to have labels that compare Mystaran cultures to two RW cultures instead of one, or referring to more broad categories like "Seafaring Germanic" rather than "Danish Viking". For example, if I want a more standard "New World" feel for a SC campaign, probably I'd describe the nimmurian ziggurats as step piramyds (pehaps with orcs and other humanoids being sacrificed). And then the M-Babylonia/M-Assyria gives place to a M-"Aztequesque" culture ;) That is a sweet idea actually... Hausman just gave me a great idea about the idea of Alphatia being M-Atlantis/M-Minoan: while the true alphatians had a M-Atlantlis culture (that I'm still not shure how should be), the Cypris had a M-Minoan culture (he had this idea because this name sounds like RW Cyprus). Another thing that we found out while toying with this idea is that the minoan Snake Goddess' name may be Ariadna. Sounds just like the name of an alphatian empress we know, doesn't it? ;) Certainly there are also quite a few Babylonian elements in Alphatian culture... Havard
Zendrolion 04-03-08, 03:47 AM	Now, I'm translating my Caerdwicca-Furmenglaive timeline, that I'll post in another thread. Unfortunately I have many RW matters to look upon in this week, so I don't know when it'll be ready exactly. Matter of days, anyway. ;) Regarding my "Ethnografic History" that Wilhelm has linked, beware becouse the tables and the maps ARE NOT UPDATED! Becouse we're talking a lot about them there, if you're interested I can without much difficulties find time to translate it also. Many things that you're reading there are not comprehensible, becouse they lack a clear explaination in the accompaining text. I beg you to patience some other days, so that I'll have the whole material translated and ready to be discussed. ;) About Yezchamen issue, my personal intention wasn't to abruptly place the work of Mattias as it is in Bellissaria, but to give to the Bellissarian nations a Mesopotamian-like feeling. And this out of three reasons: 1) minor canon infos which say that the lower course of Yalu River is inhabited by the peoples of the land called Cropland, and upriver by savage human tribes; 2) flesh out a definite character for the Bellissarian (or Alphatian, for that matter) regions. In my opinon it's not that great to have Bellissaria as a small-scale copy of Alphatia, and I bet that NO ONE has ever had their PCs spending much time there... 3) in order to do (2), I was planning to use cultures that belong to ethnic group that I have passing throught the region, that is Asyidhi (M-Semites/Hamites) and Oltecindian-descended (proto-Oltec) peoples. In truth, I was not planning to use any Persian or Indo-Iranian (Dravharian) nation or character, as peoples with those (in my ethnographic works) cultures are placed around Yazak and western Brun. Moreover I don't want to criticize or denaturate Mattias' work, so I was planning to use other names for these "new" cultures, etc. Sort of what we (on the Italian MMB) have been doing about M-Finns and M-Lapps - we changed them substantially from Mishler's work (we erased their kingdom), so we changed their name also (to Jaakansa and Samek, respectively). Finally, regarding M-***, I think that not all cultures of Mystara have to share a mirror RW-equivalent, nor that this equivalence has to be wholly precise or correct. But I'm deeply interested in bringing Mystara's culture to life in my games, and which better way to do this than taking things and hints from RW historical cultures? I can have my PCs look at the photo of a Mayan artifact and say them "you find a device like this" when they're searching around in Otzil ruins - and they'll have immediately an idea of the cultural feeling of what they've found. Something that could otherwise be done only with great difficulty if the cultures were "totally" fantasy. ;)
havard 04-03-08, 08:03 AM	Zenrolion, I am definately interested in both your Caerdwicca timeline and a translated/updated version of your ethological files/maps/charts. Hmmm..this makes me wonder what other gold mines you guys have hidden out there. Once again, I am seriously contemplating learning Italian so I could participate on those boards... Havard
Hugin 04-03-08, 10:03 AM	Now, I'm translating my Caerdwicca-Furmenglaive timeline, that I'll post in another thread. Look forward to reading it. I haven't really done a lot with the Isle of Dawn but this thread has me itching to find out more. I beg you to patience some other days, so that I'll have the whole material translated and ready to be discussed. ;) Again, I'm really looking forward to reading and discussing this with everyone. Finally, regarding M-***, I think that not all cultures of Mystara have to share a mirror RW-equivalent, nor that this equivalence has to be wholly precise or correct. But I'm deeply interested in bringing Mystara's culture to life in my games, and which better way to do this than taking things and hints from RW historical cultures? As with the example you gave, I also find the cultural parallels of tremendous help in conveying flavour and atmosphere to the players. I really like Havard's ideas about sometimes using two M-labels when appropriate and/or using broad categories. There seems to be some interest in this topic so I'm hoping we can work on some of this here and not have to learn Italian in order to participate in these types of discussions! :D
Wilhelm_ 04-03-08, 04:57 PM	Yep. I suspect it is difficult even for the most devout Mystara fan to keep track of every ethnic group and have some concept of what they are all about. The M-*** labels are a great help in dealing with that. OTOH, these should not become constraints. It might even be better to have labels that compare Mystaran cultures to two RW cultures instead of one, or referring to more broad categories like "Seafaring Germanic" rather than "Danish Viking". Or hellenistic bactrian with trirremes ;) Certainly there are also quite a few Babylonian elements in Alphatian culture... But do those traits existed back at old Alphatia? Or were absorved after the alphatians conquered M-Babylonia civilizations at Mystara? In truth, I was not planning to use any Persian or Indo-Iranian (Dravharian) nation or character, as peoples with those (in my ethnographic works) cultures are placed around Yazak and western Brun. But except for Mattias's work, there isn't much that forcing them at there, except for, pehaps, Hule, but their presence as a nation such as Yezchamenid is still anachronic if we consider the hulian peoples. So, why don't take they to the east as well? :) Moreover I don't want to criticize or denaturate Mattias' work Neither do I, it's still excellent ;) so I was planning to use other names for these "new" cultures, etc. Sort of what we (on the Italian MMB) have been doing about M-Finns and M-Lapps - we changed them substantially from Mishler's work (we erased their kingdom), so we changed their name also (to Jaakansa and Samek, respectively). I see your point, but you would be ignoring most of his work them, unless there's no viable option to bring the whole nation to another place. If that was my work, I'd rather see it placed on another region of Mystara and adapted to it than having a "clone" at there, but that's just my opinion ;) I can have my PCs look at the photo of a Mayan artifact and say them "you find a device like this" when they're searching around in Otzil ruins - and they'll have immediately an idea of the cultural feeling of what they've found. Something that could otherwise be done only with great difficulty if the cultures were "totally" fantasy. ;) Indeed :) Zenrolion, I am definately interested in both your Caerdwicca timeline and a translated/updated version of your ethological files/maps/charts. Hmmm..this makes me wonder what other gold mines you guys have hidden out there. Lots of good stuff, believe me. :D There seems to be some interest in this topic so I'm hoping we can work on some of this here and not have to learn Italian in order to participate in these types of discussions! :D LOL, yeah, me too (I can only read it, it would be too hard for me to join their discussions at there) ;)