I mean why would the ancient civilizations (Egytpians, Hebrews, etc.) Make up a lie?
Because they were ignorant of the world and how things worked, so they explained the unexplainable the only way they knew how...in terms they could understand.
This is a very strange topic...
That's why the whole issue of gods/god is mainly one of BELIEVING and of FAITH and not of KNOWING and FACT ;)
And, btw, I don't remember the time of imminent mutual nuclear destruction or later with a swaying endangered russia with its warlordish generals and a whole bunch of nuclear weapons under no real control as being brighter and friendlier than the actual one...in fact, it seems that no time in history real was one of bright life and vanquished hopes and pure happiness, there were much darker and gloomier times about than the actual one and others might've been brighter, but in the end the world isn't fairing that bad (even though definitely not superbe either)
Hm.
Ms' Claw
P.S. In science the opinion that polytheism is older than monotheism isn't common ground anymore...in fact, there are significant evidences that seem to support the opinion that monotheism changed into polytheism with other tribes/nations god/gods incorporated into the own cosmology..
Do you think way back in the olden days there used to be wizards? Like 4,000 years ago, etc.
You mean do I think there was magic? No, I don't. Do I think there were people back then who had a better understanding of the world and how things worked than the common person that everyone called a wizard or magi? Yes, that, I do believe.
The dragonarmies and the Knights of Neraka are evil to the core. Lawful perhaps, but definitely evil. They didn't even have good intentions....
Interesting thread...but as someone said above, that's why they call it FAITH. It is unknown but you believe anyway. Who can truly say....
Look: they didn't exist. At all. Ever. And of course we know this. If you want to reserve the semantics of faith for an active monotheistic religion and a Creator of All Things - go for it. But the Greek Pantheon? If someone is unable to see their non-existence as a palpable and plainly objective truth - they need some professional help.
No. Wizards didn't exist 40,000, 4,000, 400 or 4 years ago. They don't exist and never did - at all. It's called a FANTASY role playing game. The Fantasy part means "let's pretend".
*yeesh*
I have a hard enough time being sensitive to the religious mores and values of Judeo-Christians and Muslims. Uh-Uh. I'll be damned if I'm going to be sensitive to the religious sensititivies of someone concerning the Greek and Roman Pantheons.
Look: they didn't exist. At all. Ever. And of course we know this. If you want to reserve the semantics of faith for an active monotheistic religion and a Creator of All Things - go for it. But the Greek Pantheon? If someone is unable to see their non-existence as a palpable and plainly objective truth - they need some professional help.
No. Wizards didn't exist 40,000, 4,000, 400 or 4 years ago. They don't exist and never did - at all. It's called a FANTASY role playing game. The Fantasy part means "let's pretend".
*yeesh*
Wha...huh?
How about those Chinese legends that tell us about those court wizards?
Of course Wizards existed! Of course they were either hoaxes, or scientists in some sort of way typically. But much of science I suppose back then was considered "magic"
Then there were the sorcererors! Here's something funny...I was told once that the word Sorceror means drug user. That some of the sorcerors would take drugs and see visions, like visions of demons, of the future, and other items. Puts the idea of sorceror in a new light eh? So there were those as well.
Of course there were the other wizards that completely were off the mark. They were supposed to tell the futures and other items, or at least be wise advisors. Some of them were astrologists, fortune tellers and other fake sciences as opposed to those that were chemists (alchemists would probably fall into the fake sciences arena however). You have these around today still, though we normally call them Psychics, or fortune tellers instead of wizards.
As for the religion part, I myself am Christian. However the Greek and Roman mythologies as well as the idea of multiple deities (polytheism) has been around far longer than monotheism. In fact there is pretty good evidence that our religion evolved from Babylonian theology, hence our own monotheism actually started out as a polytheism. If you go from the scientific approach that is (instead of a faith based approach).
It's an interesting parallel between what Juergen2005 talks about and Dragonlance. I suppose if there were polytheistic religions that were true instead of what I believe (a monotheistic approach) one could see it as we have abandoned them. I suppose the deities would then be upset.
Of interest however, one could say Tracy Hickman took some of his own theology and applied it to a fantasy setting. If I recall he is a Mormon. Now most of what I hear about Mormons, especially from my OWN christian counterparts are blatantly false. However there are some interesting things about Mormons that would apply directly to the parallels you discuss between religion and Dragonlance, or reality and dragonlance.
In Mormon (or LDS meaning Latterday Saints) Theology they believe that Jesus took upon him the sins of the world, redeemed men, and any who believe in Jesus and follow him will be saved by his works after doing all they can to follow his teachings (in otherwords, we are saved by grace, but typically he wants to see that we actually are trying to be good people. Makes sense, that way the murderers and such don't go to heaven before those who kept all his commandments and such). Jesus set up his Church on earth via his apostles. They believe only God can lead the church, or that only Jesus could organize his church, and only those who know him could lead it in his absence.
After Jesus went up to heaven they believe he stayed in contact with his apostles much like the Clergy in Dragonlance commune with their pantheon...though in a slightly different way...but similar. Such examples would be Peter's visions of the Gentiles and food, Paul's visions, and the book of Revelations.
However as the apostles died off, that communication was lost. In addition, as Christianity grew more mainstream, and adopted many of the pagan customs, the true religion of Christianity was lost. Hence that communication and authority that came from Christ was lost. It wasn't that man couldn't do such a thing, but instead of wanting to do as Christ did, the involvment with pagan integration into the church was too great.
This of course is directly opposite of what Catholicism teaches where Peter was the first founder of the Church and built the church as well as keeping it going...just as a side note.
More paganism crept in (from Constantine, to the division of thought from the Arians and the true Catholics [Arians believe Christ to actually be a man, and the son of God if I recall correctly, but not God the Father himself], to the integration of such things as when we celebrate Christmans which was actually the pagan holiday for fertility at the end of the harvest) and men fell further and further away from the light and talking with God.
Now the next parallel comes in where the Disks of Mishakal were found. In the Mormon religion a boy desired to know what was true or not, and asked for the truth. His name was Joseph Smith and he saw God and Jesus Christ. He recieved gold plates which were another testament of Christ and would help to clarify some of the misconceptions that came down over the years. Hence communications lines were opened up once again (the Gods were not silent anymore) just like in Dragonlance where Goldmoon communes with Mishakal, and eventually Elistan communes with Paladine.
Of more interest, there could be parallels drawn between Elistan and the second Mormon Prophet Brigham Young. The Mormons had a terribly tough time with those in the States, to the point where they issued an extermination order in Missouri. This allowed the killing of Mormons to be legal, and in fact in some instances sought after (one could say Missouri's own attempt at a holocaust, against a religious group even, but it was Mormons instead of Jews, and Missouri wasn't as organized or as successful at it as the Mormons left that state). Young led them around, until they finally got to Utah, much like Elistan led the 800 refugees in their escape from turmoil.
Just a few parallels that relate from Hickman's Mythology to Dragonlance mythology. Are they correct? I'm not the one to ask, and though I could point out some major differences between Mormonism/Dragonlance ideas and Christian theology, I think your question on parallels between reality and Dragonlance are there, and can be seen in quite the abundance. In fact I'm certain there are a number more of them that I haven't touched upon.
In essence I think it's a valid question and a valid debating topic that could be rather interesting.
Look: they didn't exist. At all. Ever. And of course we know this. If you want to reserve the semantics of faith for an active monotheistic religion and a Creator of All Things - go for it. But the Greek Pantheon? If someone is unable to see their non-existence as a palpable and plainly objective truth - they need some professional help.
If the nonexistance of the Greek Pantheon is an objective truth then PROVE IT. I'll have you know that worship of the Greek Pantheon IS active, and that many, if not most, of it's adherents are educated and intelligent people.
If you are unable to see that there is no way to prove the existance or nonexistance of the Greek Pantheon OR a monothestic god then it may be you who needs the professional help.
I don't worship the Greek Pantheon, but I do beleive there is more than one god. I will not stand idly by while someone suggest that those who aren't monotheist are somehow mentally deficient. There is NO OBJECTIVE PROOF for either poly OR monotheistic belief. It is a matter of faith alone. I hold a college degree, I support and raise two children, I am a responsible and law-abiding member of my community, I don't take drugs and rarely drink, I have never once been arrested for anything. In what way do I require professional help?
I'd like to apologize to all those who come here (as I do) to enjoy gameing in the Dragonlance world. I don't like to engage in such discussions in this forum, but I have seen a disturbing trend recently of bigotry and prejudice directed against those of polytheistic religions. Just recently a judge issued a court order during divorce proceedings that forbid a childs parents from teaching the child about Wicca, a polytheistic religion that BOTH parents shared. It will almost undoubtedly be overturned, but that mere fact that the judge thought he could do this disturbes me greatly. I won't comment further on any such subjects in this thread or any other on these boards, but anyone who wishes to engage in intelligent debate on such subjects is welcome to send me a private message.
Once again, I apologize to all those who come here for fun, but in light of recent events the above comment really got my blood boiling.
Take it easy people. The truth of the matter is this...
It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, no one can prove their side. Not to mention, once you die, which you absolutely will, you will get to find out.
It depends on how you define the term "we". If you are talking about the powers that be....then no, I don't believe the U.S. Government is like the dragonarmies or the Knights of Neraka. I don't believe the government to be evil. Nor do I believe it to be entirely good. I believe it to be self-serving, so to be perfectly honest, I believe the government to be "neutral", or what I like to call "neutral selfish". If you really want to compare the powers that be to a relevant dragonlance "power", look at the Kingpriest era (Age of Dreams?), and the Kingpriests of Istar. (Istar = U.S.).
The dragonarmies and the Knights of Neraka are evil to the core. Lawful perhaps, but definitely evil. They didn't even have good intentions....
Interesting thread...but as someone said above, that's why they call it FAITH. It is unknown but you believe anyway. Who can truly say....
I hate to quote other stories/movies, but "evil is someone's point of view" Which is true. Some people may think killing animals to eat is evil for example. So yes, whether something is good or evil is determied by someone's point of view and perception.
I have a hard enough time being sensitive to the religious mores and values of Judeo-Christians and Muslims. Uh-Uh. I'll be damned if I'm going to be sensitive to the religious sensititivies of someone concerning the Greek and Roman Pantheons.
Look: they didn't exist. At all. Ever. And of course we know this. If you want to reserve the semantics of faith for an active monotheistic religion and a Creator of All Things - go for it. But the Greek Pantheon? If someone is unable to see their non-existence as a palpable and plainly objective truth - they need some professional help.
No. Wizards didn't exist 40,000, 4,000, 400 or 4 years ago. They don't exist and never did - at all. It's called a FANTASY role playing game. The Fantasy part means "let's pretend".
*yeesh*
Let's go all out....Who's to say that Allah, or God, or the Lord even exists??? No one knows. Just as no one can prove that pantheons exist or do not exist.
By the way, The Christians, Jews, and Muslims, believe in the same God, so why do they fight eachother? They should be on the same side fighting those who do ot believe in the same god as there's. They can be against Shintoists maybe? African religoins maybe? Buddhists maybe?
I am not trying to be a jerk- but come on people- lets stick to the purpose of the board and discuss material that will lead to making the DL world a better place and leave the reality and problems of the real world somewhere else.
I really do not want to see someone get banned from the message boards for violating the code of conduct.
Get this book preferably with the DVD. There are 4 categories of Religion: Basic religions, religions originating in India, religions originating in China and Japan, religions originating in the Middle East.
After reading this book and looking at the DVD you guys/girls will have an open mind and not have prejudice against other religions of the world.
"There is one Truth but the wise call it by different names." Rig Veda(164.46)
Notice how all of the religions are similar to eachother? For example: Buddhism, Hinduism, ad Christianity believe in the trinity. There are various other examples as well.
The avatar thing in dragonlance (Fizban/Astinus) is based off of the world religions.
I guess you can say that the 3 moons and the 3 pantheons is a form of trinity.
I guess you can say that the 3 moons and the 3 pantheons is a form of trinity.
Seriously man...if you're going to wax philisophical about this stuff and oppose someone's disregard for a pantheon full of lustful hedonites who like to **** unsuspecting boys and women, you should at least be somewhat smart about it.
You can't call the balance of good, evil, and neutrality a "trinity" when you've just previously defined "trinity" as the "father, son, and holy spirit."
The first just happens to be three things, three opposing ways of life, three opposing views of reality...the latter is a three-in-one sort of deal. Three beings that are one being. So...if you want the equivilant of the Dragonlance Trinity think Platinum Dragon, Valliant Warrior, and Fizban (although each god in the Dragonlance pantheon is much more complicated than the Christian Trinity, which is pretty damned complicated in and of itself when you think about it what it really means).
I have a hard enough time being sensitive to the religious mores and values of Judeo-Christians and Muslims.
That's not an excuse to not offend anyone. If you can't be respectful, avoid talking about it. (And yes, I sometimes need to remember that advice too.)
Uh-Uh. I'll be damned if I'm going to be sensitive to the religious sensititivies of someone concerning the Greek and Roman Pantheons.
Look: they didn't exist. At all. Ever. And of course we know this. If you want to reserve the semantics of faith for an active monotheistic religion and a Creator of All Things - go for it. But the Greek Pantheon? If someone is unable to see their non-existence as a palpable and plainly objective truth - they need some professional help.
The problem is that we take the myths we hear literally. Very few ancient Greeks did. (In Plato's Euthyphro, we find Euthyphro saying that he does believe the myths literally, and he points out that most people think he's crazy for believing that.) They observed many forces in the world around them. Sure, they gave them names and described them using anthopomorphic terms. We still do that today without realizing it. Newton was accused of appealing to the occult with these weird "forces" in the world. (In fact, Newton himself said that you'd have to be crazy to literally believe his theory of gravity.)
Thunder and lighting exist. The sea exists. There is wisdom and there is war. They exist. What does it matter whether someone gives them names? "Worship" is a form of respect for all of the elements in the world around us that affect our lives.
Now, the idea behind all that is that gamers who know that they can come here and use these forums & the Chat Environment to get more use out of our products and meet new folks to game with will buy more Wizards of the Coast products and increase the company's bottom line.
The general rule of these forums has always been "No Real-World Politics, No Real-World Religion", both of these subjects tend to be very divisive (which might just be the single biggest understatement I've ever made) and tend to drive people away from the forums (which is exactly the opposite of what we're trying to do. ANY discussion of either of those topics is inflammatory to somebody. Somewhere in the world right now there are people who are being killed over disagreements about Religion and/or Politics. So we just don't allow discussion of them.
Therefore, this thread will be locked. Please do not restart it.
*Click*