Castle Greyhawk the Humor Module - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Castle Greyhawk the Humor Module

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Charles_Phipps
Aug 19, 2005 18:37:04 How the Hell did this thing get published and what was the reaction to it? I mean the one where Mordenkaine is a movie producer, the Ghostbusters and cast of Star Trek shows up, there's randomly a scene where a vampiress and goblin are 'setting up' the trap for the adventurers, plus a scene where the writer is finishing up describing the Dungoen level.
#2
samwise
Aug 19, 2005 20:46:56 The reaction was generally an unrestrained version of yours. (That is, it included words that would get you in lots of trouble with the forum moderators.)
Some few people accepted it for what it was, and some others have to come to accept certain parts of it on those terms. That being the reason it was published, and that being it was just supposed to be a bunch of fun silliness. One of the authors (I believe of the first level) was working at West End Games while I was a playtester, and he didn't think it was anything but a big bunch of fun. (Although this was only about a 5 minutes exchange, not an in depth discussion of the whole thing.) I am pretty sure that applied to all of the authors, and I suspect they were pretty surprised at the fan reaction.
I don't think the full extremes of Canon Madness were really appreciated at that time, and the severity of the reaction against it.
#3
maldin
Aug 19, 2005 23:05:55 Yup, as Sam says, there were two reactions to it. Greyhawk fans, who had been waiting and waiting, after almost a decade of merciless hype and hollow promises about the release of the great and wonderful Castle Greyhawk, immediately rushed out and bought it (like I did) expecting the ultimate dungeon crawl we had for so many years been teased with stories of.... and instead found what could only be described as a crime against canon and serious campaigning. No words could effectively describe the rage and disgust frothing from DMs around the world.

Many non-Greyhawk fans saw it for what it was... just a fun mod to let loose epic-campaign-weery players for a few nights of rest and relaxation from their "serious" campaigns. There were much more of those people then Sam lets on, though, and because of that, WG7 actually tends to sell for quite a bit on the auctions... often meeting and exceeding the value of some of the more valuable Greyhawk classics.

One can't also help thinking that the idea for creating the product in the first place (and not necessarily the actual designers/writers) was to take a less-then-reverent swipe at the Old Man's sacred cow. Gary had been relatively recently (at the time) forced out of his own company, and perhaps there were some people at TSR that wanted to do their level-best to give him the finger and slam the door behind him. It was a time of strong emotions.

My personal view? Its not canon, and does not appear in my Greyhawk. However I HAVE gleaned a few scraps of what I consider personal campaign canon from it (Xodast and Zol, Iggwilv and Graz'zt, both from Level 9), plus I've actually used a couple of the levels as "Zagyg" levels below the sewers of the City of Greyhawk (entrance visible under the Citadel on the Greyhawk Undercity map on my website).

Denis, aka "Maldin"
=============================
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Check out the ton of cool Edition-independent stuff on my website, New Spells, Magic Items, Notoriety, Artifacts, Kyuss, secrets of the Twin Cataclysms, the Codex of the Infinite Planes, the Dreadwood, the cities of Melkot, Greyhawk and Irongate, a Grand Unified Theory for all of D&D, magic and the Multiverse, and much, much more!!
#4
Charles_Phipps
Aug 19, 2005 23:16:19 I regret it was published after Gary's exit. I personally loved the encounter with jubilex and actually use that as his personality (the parts you mentioned are aso good). The idea of the Slime Lord as totally insane yet congenial is a wonderful contrast.
#5
thanael
Aug 20, 2005 10:56:12 Someone on Greytalk once wrote up a very amusing and great summer fiction adaption of it, which featured Melf and companions on a Mordenkainen-sponsored mission into Castle Greyhawk. I found that version very entertaining.

Greytalk archive is down though, so i can't seem to find it...
#6
zombiegleemax
Aug 22, 2005 10:16:51 If it had been called ANYTHING else... If they had made it clear from the packaging that it was a parody...

Instead, it came off like a cheap shot at Gygax and all his fans.

R.A.
#7
grodog
Aug 22, 2005 18:25:26
Someone on Greytalk once wrote up a very amusing and great summer fiction adaption of it, which featured Melf and companions on a Mordenkainen-sponsored mission into Castle Greyhawk. I found that version very entertaining.

I agree, that was Russell Bird's work, and was fabulous!!!

Greytalk archive is down though, so i can't seem to find it...

I've pinged Morgan about the archive, hopefully he'll respond soon :D
#8
Charles_Phipps
Sep 17, 2005 0:15:50 Well I actually liked it's version of Mordenkain.

I wondered if it was serious honestly with the fact that Alice in Wonderland was already in the Castle.
#9
darth_azalin
Sep 17, 2005 4:21:32 With everything said about that module...

I would say that Greyhawk Ruins is a lot better...

And I can't get past the 1st lvl when the Kobolds are doing a summoning and they actually get Asmodeus to come in and well he just laughs at them and leaves again.... Its a riot..
#10
Mortepierre
Sep 17, 2005 4:33:28
Well I actually liked it's version of Mordenkain.

I wondered if it was serious honestly with the fact that Alice in Wonderland was already in the Castle.

To be fair, Wonderland wasn't really in the Castle. There was just a portal leading to it, that's all. Who said Zagyg didn't have a sense of humor? ;)
#11
faraer
Sep 18, 2005 13:37:35
Well I actually liked it's version of Mordenkain.

I wondered if it was serious honestly with the fact that Alice in Wonderland was already in the Castle.

There's a vast gulf between the playfully literary EX1-2 modules and the mean-spirited incoherence of WG7.

We simply have no way of knowing if, as Maldin suggests, a substantial number of people have actually enjoyed playing WG7 or if the collectors' demand for it is because of its infamy and freakshow value plus, perhaps, a small print run.
#12
Charles_Phipps
Sep 18, 2005 13:46:24
There's a vast gulf between the playfully literary EX1-2 modules and the mean-spirited incoherence of WG7.

We simply have no way of knowing if, as Maldin suggests, a substantial number of people have actually enjoyed playing WG7 or if the collectors' demand for it is because of its infamy and freakshow value plus, perhaps, a small print run.

Well I played it myself. It's got some funny parts and it's got some non-funny parts to it. It's a little TOO random but it's still an enjoyable setting. I actually stole the characterization of Jubilex from it.

I.e. bat**** insane and weirdly erudite.
#13
ripvanwormer
Sep 18, 2005 14:31:33
There's a vast gulf between the playfully literary EX1-2 modules and the mean-spirited incoherence of WG7.

The mean-spiritness of WG7 only ever existed in a few fans' minds, keen for whatever reason to attribute malice to people (I don't even think "Mordenkainen's Movie Madness" qualifies as more than good-natured ribbing). Both WG7 and EX1-2 are equally playful and equally incoherent.

There's no doubt that Lewis Carroll references are of a higher calibre than references to the Andy Griffith Show, the TOON RPG, or the fast food industry, but whenever you honor one text with the label "literary" and not another, you've dipped into the waters of subjectivity and possibly even elitism. And anyway, any cred Gygax might have had for referencing classic children's lit died when he made the Dormouse a wererat.

I think Gygax was actually going for a contrast between the standard dungeon-crawl action of Castle Greyhawk and the unexpected zaniness of the Wonderland areas, but I can still see how some people at TSR looked at them and thought to themselves, "Ah, it looks like Gygax's castle is supposed to be full of lame parodies" and went with that. It's not like Gygax's actual dungeon, with its holes to China and so forth, was any kind of masterpiece. It was something Gygax made up more or less on the fly at the very dawn of gaming; it was not, by our standards today, good.

I suppose WG7 may have been some kind of petty misdemeanor against serious gaming, but the cover art and the description on the back really should have fully prepared everyone for what was inside; if it didn't, shame on you for not reading the back of the book first - that's just sloppy. It's not something you'd want to insert into a regular campaign (unless you're like Gary Gygax, relishing the shock of your poor players), but for a series of one-shots, it's kind of fun. For the kinds of games I played in high school, it was perfect.

And, come on, the Mini-Onions of Set? What heartless cad doesn't love that?
#14
faraer
Sep 18, 2005 18:07:02 At least two of the authors of WG7, freelancers not privy to TSR meetings, have said they suspect that a big motivation of the module was to ridicule Gary and his legacy. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't so, or if it wasn't clear to a lot of readers at the time. I'm not saying no one did or should find bits of it fun, though it happens I didn't.

I think EX1 and 2 are way better and more literary modules than WG7: subjective, I guess, and 'elitist' in so far as any judgement that anything is better than anything else is.

I don't see how the fact that Castle Greyhawk was heavily improvised, has imaginative -- Zagygian -- wackiness, and was created at the dawn of the RPG makes it not good or prevents it being a masterpiece. Gary wasn't any less able to judge what was good then than we are now, and a dungeon that's been very popular with many people then and since doesn't become any less great and entertaining because it isn't in tune with standards some people now have. I'm also quite sure that there are aspects of Gygaxian D&D that Gary either didn't realize consciously or forgot to mention or didn't think worth explaining, directions neglected and untravelled by RPGs since, that are imbedded in the Castle dungeons and will become clearer when we finally see it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Charles_Phipps Aug 19, 2005 18:37:04	How the Hell did this thing get published and what was the reaction to it? I mean the one where Mordenkaine is a movie producer, the Ghostbusters and cast of Star Trek shows up, there's randomly a scene where a vampiress and goblin are 'setting up' the trap for the adventurers, plus a scene where the writer is finishing up describing the Dungoen level.
#2 samwise Aug 19, 2005 20:46:56	The reaction was generally an unrestrained version of yours. (That is, it included words that would get you in lots of trouble with the forum moderators.) Some few people accepted it for what it was, and some others have to come to accept certain parts of it on those terms. That being the reason it was published, and that being it was just supposed to be a bunch of fun silliness. One of the authors (I believe of the first level) was working at West End Games while I was a playtester, and he didn't think it was anything but a big bunch of fun. (Although this was only about a 5 minutes exchange, not an in depth discussion of the whole thing.) I am pretty sure that applied to all of the authors, and I suspect they were pretty surprised at the fan reaction. I don't think the full extremes of Canon Madness were really appreciated at that time, and the severity of the reaction against it.
#3 maldin Aug 19, 2005 23:05:55	Yup, as Sam says, there were two reactions to it. Greyhawk fans, who had been waiting and waiting, after almost a decade of merciless hype and hollow promises about the release of the great and wonderful Castle Greyhawk, immediately rushed out and bought it (like I did) expecting the ultimate dungeon crawl we had for so many years been teased with stories of.... and instead found what could only be described as a crime against canon and serious campaigning. No words could effectively describe the rage and disgust frothing from DMs around the world. Many non-Greyhawk fans saw it for what it was... just a fun mod to let loose epic-campaign-weery players for a few nights of rest and relaxation from their "serious" campaigns. There were much more of those people then Sam lets on, though, and because of that, WG7 actually tends to sell for quite a bit on the auctions... often meeting and exceeding the value of some of the more valuable Greyhawk classics. One can't also help thinking that the idea for creating the product in the first place (and not necessarily the actual designers/writers) was to take a less-then-reverent swipe at the Old Man's sacred cow. Gary had been relatively recently (at the time) forced out of his own company, and perhaps there were some people at TSR that wanted to do their level-best to give him the finger and slam the door behind him. It was a time of strong emotions. My personal view? Its not canon, and does not appear in my Greyhawk. However I HAVE gleaned a few scraps of what I consider personal campaign canon from it (Xodast and Zol, Iggwilv and Graz'zt, both from Level 9), plus I've actually used a couple of the levels as "Zagyg" levels below the sewers of the City of Greyhawk (entrance visible under the Citadel on the Greyhawk Undercity map on my website). Denis, aka "Maldin" ============================= Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com Check out the ton of cool Edition-independent stuff on my website, New Spells, Magic Items, Notoriety, Artifacts, Kyuss, secrets of the Twin Cataclysms, the Codex of the Infinite Planes, the Dreadwood, the cities of Melkot, Greyhawk and Irongate, a Grand Unified Theory for all of D&D, magic and the Multiverse, and much, much more!!
#4 Charles_Phipps Aug 19, 2005 23:16:19	I regret it was published after Gary's exit. I personally loved the encounter with jubilex and actually use that as his personality (the parts you mentioned are aso good). The idea of the Slime Lord as totally insane yet congenial is a wonderful contrast.
#5 thanael Aug 20, 2005 10:56:12	Someone on Greytalk once wrote up a very amusing and great summer fiction adaption of it, which featured Melf and companions on a Mordenkainen-sponsored mission into Castle Greyhawk. I found that version very entertaining. Greytalk archive is down though, so i can't seem to find it...
#6 zombiegleemax Aug 22, 2005 10:16:51	If it had been called ANYTHING else... If they had made it clear from the packaging that it was a parody... Instead, it came off like a cheap shot at Gygax and all his fans. R.A.
#7 grodog Aug 22, 2005 18:25:26	Someone on Greytalk once wrote up a very amusing and great summer fiction adaption of it, which featured Melf and companions on a Mordenkainen-sponsored mission into Castle Greyhawk. I found that version very entertaining. I agree, that was Russell Bird's work, and was fabulous!!! Greytalk archive is down though, so i can't seem to find it... I've pinged Morgan about the archive, hopefully he'll respond soon :D
#8 Charles_Phipps Sep 17, 2005 0:15:50	Well I actually liked it's version of Mordenkain. I wondered if it was serious honestly with the fact that Alice in Wonderland was already in the Castle.
#9 darth_azalin Sep 17, 2005 4:21:32	With everything said about that module... I would say that Greyhawk Ruins is a lot better... And I can't get past the 1st lvl when the Kobolds are doing a summoning and they actually get Asmodeus to come in and well he just laughs at them and leaves again.... Its a riot..
#10 Mortepierre Sep 17, 2005 4:33:28	Well I actually liked it's version of Mordenkain. I wondered if it was serious honestly with the fact that Alice in Wonderland was already in the Castle. To be fair, Wonderland wasn't really in the Castle. There was just a portal leading to it, that's all. Who said Zagyg didn't have a sense of humor? ;)
#11 faraer Sep 18, 2005 13:37:35	Well I actually liked it's version of Mordenkain. I wondered if it was serious honestly with the fact that Alice in Wonderland was already in the Castle. There's a vast gulf between the playfully literary EX1-2 modules and the mean-spirited incoherence of WG7. We simply have no way of knowing if, as Maldin suggests, a substantial number of people have actually enjoyed playing WG7 or if the collectors' demand for it is because of its infamy and freakshow value plus, perhaps, a small print run.
#12 Charles_Phipps Sep 18, 2005 13:46:24	There's a vast gulf between the playfully literary EX1-2 modules and the mean-spirited incoherence of WG7. We simply have no way of knowing if, as Maldin suggests, a substantial number of people have actually enjoyed playing WG7 or if the collectors' demand for it is because of its infamy and freakshow value plus, perhaps, a small print run. Well I played it myself. It's got some funny parts and it's got some non-funny parts to it. It's a little TOO random but it's still an enjoyable setting. I actually stole the characterization of Jubilex from it. I.e. bat**** insane and weirdly erudite.
#13 ripvanwormer Sep 18, 2005 14:31:33	There's a vast gulf between the playfully literary EX1-2 modules and the mean-spirited incoherence of WG7. The mean-spiritness of WG7 only ever existed in a few fans' minds, keen for whatever reason to attribute malice to people (I don't even think "Mordenkainen's Movie Madness" qualifies as more than good-natured ribbing). Both WG7 and EX1-2 are equally playful and equally incoherent. There's no doubt that Lewis Carroll references are of a higher calibre than references to the Andy Griffith Show, the TOON RPG, or the fast food industry, but whenever you honor one text with the label "literary" and not another, you've dipped into the waters of subjectivity and possibly even elitism. And anyway, any cred Gygax might have had for referencing classic children's lit died when he made the Dormouse a wererat. I think Gygax was actually going for a contrast between the standard dungeon-crawl action of Castle Greyhawk and the unexpected zaniness of the Wonderland areas, but I can still see how some people at TSR looked at them and thought to themselves, "Ah, it looks like Gygax's castle is supposed to be full of lame parodies" and went with that. It's not like Gygax's actual dungeon, with its holes to China and so forth, was any kind of masterpiece. It was something Gygax made up more or less on the fly at the very dawn of gaming; it was not, by our standards today, good. I suppose WG7 may have been some kind of petty misdemeanor against serious gaming, but the cover art and the description on the back really should have fully prepared everyone for what was inside; if it didn't, shame on you for not reading the back of the book first - that's just sloppy. It's not something you'd want to insert into a regular campaign (unless you're like Gary Gygax, relishing the shock of your poor players), but for a series of one-shots, it's kind of fun. For the kinds of games I played in high school, it was perfect. And, come on, the Mini-Onions of Set? What heartless cad doesn't love that?
#14 faraer Sep 18, 2005 18:07:02	At least two of the authors of WG7, freelancers not privy to TSR meetings, have said they suspect that a big motivation of the module was to ridicule Gary and his legacy. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't so, or if it wasn't clear to a lot of readers at the time. I'm not saying no one did or should find bits of it fun, though it happens I didn't. I think EX1 and 2 are way better and more literary modules than WG7: subjective, I guess, and 'elitist' in so far as any judgement that anything is better than anything else is. I don't see how the fact that Castle Greyhawk was heavily improvised, has imaginative -- Zagygian -- wackiness, and was created at the dawn of the RPG makes it not good or prevents it being a masterpiece. Gary wasn't any less able to judge what was good then than we are now, and a dungeon that's been very popular with many people then and since doesn't become any less great and entertaining because it isn't in tune with standards some people now have. I'm also quite sure that there are aspects of Gygaxian D&D that Gary either didn't realize consciously or forgot to mention or didn't think worth explaining, directions neglected and untravelled by RPGs since, that are imbedded in the Castle dungeons and will become clearer when we finally see it.