Q: Greyhawk? Default setting?
A: Greyhawk is where RPGA is running living Greyhawk. It's not really what I would call a default setting anymore for D&D. We focused on D&D medieval fantasy world, we have elements of Eberron, etc. in the core books. Greyhawk has been around for so long there's plenty of source material for anyone who wants to play and it is easy to get into.
This is somewhat dissappointing. It's a good thing I've pulled together my personal collection of Greyhawk materials.
Maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Let Wizards ignore the setting for a bit longer. The fans of the setting will never let go. New ones will come, too, whether GH is currently supported or not. Why? Because it is Gygax DnD! No longer utilized as a generic non-commital setting nebulously alluded to from time to time, perhaps it will one day enjoy full-scale support from Wizards or whomever.
Let's look at what Mr. Mona and Mr. Jacobs & co. have done for the Greyhawk setting in the pages of Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I think it is no mere coincidence that their efforts to keep GH in our DnD has coincided with bolstered sales, more subscriptions, and a larger demand for recent back issues. They have done well at the ENie awards, too -- indicative of their superior efforts.
One score and two years ago, when I used my paper-route money to buy the GH boxed set, the first thing that grabbed me was the maps, oh man, those maps! I could just stare at them all day, imagining where and when and how I would spin plots for my group. Now, over 20-years later, an even better map of that same world is the hands-down best cartography map winner at the ENies. Maybe this new 4-part GH map will inspire more players, young and old, experienced and newbie alike. These maps have, in part, again inspired me to begin a new campaign in the GH setting, except now I'm in my mid-30's and I have 23 years of DMing experience under my belt. It's a full-circle kinda thing, and I'm loving it.
Call me an optimist, but I hardly believe we will forever be forced to cling to our 1e and 2e Greyhawk products in order to play the setting. Greyhawk will live on!
--Ghul
I don't like Eberron, it's too cheezy. artwotevas and Warforged, make me want to smite whoever thought of it, with a size G Greatsword.
I'm going to say something very controversial now, so those of you with weak hearts and nervous dispositions be warned - take a seat. ;)
Eberron isn't as bad as some people say.
I think I'll say that again.
Eberron isn't as bad some people say.
I base that Oerthshaking comment on an albeit pretty quick scan through Five Nations, one of the setting sourcebooks. Some of the NPCs therein (especially the rulers of the 5 Nations) are as well-drawn and complex as any found in the best of the Greyhawk supplements (that's Marklands, Ivid the Undying and Iuz the Evil in my book) and the production values and detail on each kingdom make me teary-eyed that Nyrond, Furyondy, Keoland or Ahlissa seem destined never to get a similar deluxe treatment. And it's pretty epic too - The Mournlands are as nasty as any part of Almor or the Empire of Iuz - icky, icky icky.
It is it as good as Greyhawk? Don't be silly! :D
But is it all bad? Not by a long way (though I still have serious issues with lightning rails).
IMO and your mileage may, of course, vary.
P.
Utterer of Blasphemies
When I read Sharn: City of Towers, I was envious on behalf of cities such as Greyhawk, Verbobonc, and Dyvers.
When I read about the Mournland, and the rest of Khorvaire in Five Nations, I felt the lacking of source information for nations such as Nyrond, Old Almor (which will play a large part in my campaign), and Ahlissa.
Everyday, I look at those Eberron books and think, "They're onto something here. They did a darn fine job of developing and fleshing out this world more than anyone will ever do for Greyhawk."
I love my Greyhawk and always will, but I think those that complain about Eberron's being cheesy need to really read about the "fluff" of world itself and put aside the hyperanalysis of the additional "crunch."
And for those who love the "grey" in Greyhawk, you'll find it to be just as prevalent in Eberron.
But that's just me.
Well, it may be that I am totally misjudging the situation and that on the 60th anniverary of D&D hordes of old school E players and DM protest that it won't be included in the new 8e of D&D and declare that they all are going to switch to Salads & Sausages because Keith Baker has made that great deal with Troll Lord Games and gives them the old *Sharn: City of Towers* dungeons under a new name in a new setting...
But seriously, I have that *Birthright* feeling with E; maybe, it will hold some time longer due to WotC ginger policy, but really, I don't believe that it will attract the mainstream, I think, in some years, being a E DM will be like today being a regular Al Quadim player... (No offense, friend Giarmarga :wink: )
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That a setting is new. doesn't say that it easy to be played.
Especially if it is so *concepted* to be expanded by dozens of suportive products...
Noobs today may look for what is *attractive* and, so to speak, *in*.
But I personally as a DM tend to look for settings that allow easy and fast playing, without requiring your players to read entire libraries.
So, I ended up with The Rings of Brass (one sourcebook) and Wilderlands (two sourcebooks)...
*I think that will be the future of gaming; the long lines all proove to sell ill or being in the process of decease...*
(only 3 new books this year, bohooo!)
And so you don't get me wrong if you're an Eberron fan:
My impression is that I can get less from E for my personal rpg *developments* than from any other setting. And I have the feeling that this will not change even if they balance it some more...
As someone (I believe it was Joel
:wink: However, if one is happy with E, I am definitely not the one to judge him/her badly for it...
I look at Eberron and think, 'anime, baby... anime.'
But that's just me.
That is just you, because it's nothing like anime. It's standard D&D with the logical progression of using low-level magic for everyday, practical use. As cheap as an everburning torch is, why not light up city streets with them? Better living through arcana.
The new races make sense, too. Why shouldn't half-human/half-dopplegangers exist when half-elves are so prevalent? Why wouldn't it make sense to mass-produce constructs that can think for themselves and eventually yearn for independence.
These things exist in Eberron while it still maintains the traditional Dungeons & Dragons feel. In most cases, if not all, they make sense.
When I first read about Eberron, I was extremely skeptical, but then I started actually reading the history in Eberron, and saw the same elements that made me fall in love wth Greyhawk. Political machinations. Good-aligned nations warring with one another. A war-torn continent. Racial tensions. Corruption. These are the things that make Greyhawk so great, and now there is a fresh, clean setting that is the brainchild of multiple designers, some of which were other candidates of the setting search who added bits and peices of those settings into Eberron while working with Keith Baker on the published Campaign Setting hardcover. What really make Eberron so great is the lack of restriction that some settings placed like Dark Sun (anti-magic and metal weapons) while supporting supplemental systems such as psionics. Eberron says, "yes" to everything 3e.
Think of Eberron more like a "best of" setting instead of the preconceived labels of steampunk, anime, etc; it's really not. In fact, it's really not far from Greyhawk at all. It's actually Greyhawk + post-World War action and drama such as that which is seen in movies like Indiana Jones and Casablanca.
Like I said, as much as I am obsessed with Greyhawk, I found the wealth of out-of-print publications to be too vast and dispersed to be practical, but I used it because it fits perfectly with standard D&D. However, it's very likely that my next campaign will be placed in Eberron because of the flexibility it provides while allowing a DM to maintain the classic dungeon crawl feel of D&D.
I have no doubt it is being developed and written by capable game designers and that I would enjoy reading the sourcebooks, but when it comes right down to it, if a campaign setting doesn't appeal to you then you aren't going to put down increasingly larger sums of cash for it.
Pretty much my thoughts on FR as well.
d20 has so diluted the sourcebook and adventure market that WotC is going to have a hard time keeping their sales at an acceptable level, no matter what campaign they put their marketing muscle behind.
Unfortunately I think they are going to shelve Greyhawk and let it become all old and dusty after the RPGA/LG is done picking its bones clean. Perhaps down the road when Hasbro sells off WotC because they aren't far enough in the black we will see Greyhawk in some new incarnation.
Don't hold your breathe.
That is just you, because it's nothing like anime.
Have you ever seen "Fullmetal Alchemist?" It's very, very similar to Eberron, from trains to constructs with souls. They're not identical - Eberron is its own world, and it is just as influenced by Casablanca, Indiana Jones, D&D conventions, the alternate cosmologies in the Manual of the Planes, and so forth, but I think the anime influence is definitely there.
My point isn't to say taht Eberron is better or worse than Greyhawk. I'm only trying to illustrate that Eberron can be just like Greyhawk or can have an anime style if the DM allows it.
And for the record, it's not just EmperorNorton that sees it. I see plenty of anime in Eberron as well, and not nearly as many similarities as you do.
Yup. There's nothing like being sold Eberron on the Greyhawk board. You've got some real cajones, Amaril.
And for the record, it's not just EmperorNorton that sees it. I see plenty of anime in Eberron as well, and not nearly as many similarities as you do.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up. I'm not trying to sell anything here. I love Greyhawk first and foremost. I'm just backing up Woesinger's statement that Eberron is not as bad as some people say.
Aditionally, I think the reason why you might see anime in Eberron is simply because you watch anime and can make comparisons. I don't see the anime in Eberron because I don't watch a lot of anime. I don't even like anime; I see maybe one movie every other year. So, Eberron is straight D&D with practical uses of magic in my eyes. If Eberron had so much anime in it, it should immediately jump out at me, especially since I don't like it, but it just simply doesn't.
Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to sell it; I'm only backing up Woesinger in saying that it's not that bad.
Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to sell it; I'm only backing up Woesinger in saying that it's not that bad.
Thanks!
Let me return the favour. The big difference between GH and Eb is, as Amaril, points out, that in Eb they pursued the ubquity of magic to it's logical conclusion and that is magical technology. It's not my cup of tea, but it's obvious that a fair bit of thought has been put into it, which you have to admire.
I also looked at 5 Nations and wished that the same level of detail, artwork and all the pretty eyecandy was available for Nyrond or Ahlissa.
I look at Eb and see what 'hawker's can learn in terms of developing and presenting GH - even if it's just articles on Canonfire. And by development, I don't mean adding lightning rails to Furyondy, but going into depth into the feuds, factions, society, customs, all the good stuff that brings a realm and a setting to life. That, I feel, is where Eb has got it right - even if it varies somewhat from my taste in fanasty roleplay.
Now the Realms, on the other hand.... :D
P.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up. I'm not trying to sell anything here. I love Greyhawk first and foremost. I'm just backing up Woesinger's statement that Eberron is not as bad as some people say.
Aditionally, I think the reason why you might see anime in Eberron is simply because you watch anime and can make comparisons. I don't see the anime in Eberron because I don't watch a lot of anime. I don't even like anime; I see maybe one movie every other year. So, Eberron is straight D&D with practical uses of magic in my eyes. If Eberron had so much anime in it, it should immediately jump out at me, especially since I don't like it, but it just simply doesn't.
Anyway, like I said, I'm not trying to sell it; I'm only backing up Woesinger in saying that it's not that bad.
For the record, I don't watch anime (don't even like it or its 'subtle' messages), but I know what it is and can recognize it when I see it. And what I see in Eberron reminds me of anime. Not a bad thing ser se, but one of its strongest selling points when all other factors are calculated, I imagine.
For the record, I don't watch anime (don't even like it or its 'subtle' messages), but I know what it is and can recognize it when I see it. And what I see in Eberron reminds me of anime. Not a bad thing ser se, but one of its strongest selling points when all other factors are calculated, I imagine.
Funny, it's selling point to me was its pulp-noir feel and "greyness." I still don't see the anime similarity. Anime to me is a style of animation. Again, there might be fantasy anime that share similar story ideas and fantasy concepts as D&D and Eberron, but that doesn't mean Eberron is inherently anime.
Anyway, back to the point. I like the similarities Eberron has with Greyhawk, and I plan to eventually run an Eberron campaign that emphasizes those similarities.
But only if Greyhawk truly ends up dead in the water.
Let's be honest, anime has a goofy 'everything is possible and the kitchen sink' attitude, and that's what I see when I look at the setting.
That's what I see when I look at D&D in general.
Dinosaurs, film noir, detective stories, technology (not magic!!), and lest we forget, psionics!!!
Did someone mention Mystara/Hollow World?
Greyhawk had its own munchkinism, especially the way Gygax's gaming group played it.
True. There are still rules for firearms and laser cannons in the DMG, but that doesn't mean you have to use them in your game. It's one thing to have rules for something, it's another for them to be already included in a specific campaign world.
I don't think S3 constituted a world spanning opinion on technology, nor did City of the Gods as each instance was just a one off to be visited and little else.
But trains flying aorund in the sky? Subway system for hack and slashers. Yeah, that's got steampunk and whatever other names you wanna apply to it.
Eberron blows. So sayeth Norton.
Who says you need nukes to play PA?
Oggie
A few days ago I went to Monte Cook's website and checked the preview of the upcoming Ptolus material (I already played the Banewarrens adventure), a jaw-dropping 600-score pages supplement that details the city of Ptolus to painstaking detail, it's kinda Sharn on anabolycs.
No need to say, I was wondering how would it be to have Greyhawk, Dyvers or Mitrik detailed in such levels... some cities in our beloved GH really lack of the deserved detail. Even I'm talking about another setting, I am playing The Great Modrom March right now and I have had a hard time inventing and developing the Gate towns on the outlands, as there is just a meager page on the Player's Primer on each of them. No details on the givernemnt, size, architecture, nothing... Even Sigil is far from being covered decently imho, despite average quality supplement like the In The Cage.
Actually, is there a real motivation nobody is developing a book about the flanaess that brings from the ashes to 3e? I mean, Wizards gave Italy (my own country) the chance to develop the Sea Barons region, so couldn't the player just write a complete compendium about the sea barons with some layout software and share a high-queality pdf with all of us? And couldnt the rest of the world do the same? Sure we might need professional developers to write a Ptolus/Sharn equivalent of Greyhawk, but maybe a collaborative effort could reach similar levels. I have seen Canonfire and it's a really excellent website, but then again, it is still dispersive to have so much infos scattered like that (I agree with previous posts here) . We really need a new serious Greyhawk setting and city of Greyhawk supplement, a book to browse when we need important npcs descriptions, social customs, details on Paynims rituals and Rovers horses etc. do you think we could legally start assembling one like they did for Planescape at Planewalker? I mean, as a collaborative project... just collecting details from all the supplements, journals, canonfire articles etc... we might not have Ken Frank's blessed pencil but I guess we have more than enough knowledge of the setting to start assembling a decent PDF, and some Internet artists are not that bad at all.
So what do you think?
What if all of us Greyhawk fans wrote in support of WOTC supporting via books to WOTC?
My knowledge of English is rather limited so I would not risk writing anything in English (eh) but I can offer total support on such a project by giving unlimited space on my server, webdesign and eventually a PDF netbook. They already did a Campaign Setting for Birthright for instance, I think we can build something similar for GH. We can take LGG as a start and then work from there.
I am open to suggestions (or eventual "shut that fck up" comments ehe)
True. There are still rules for firearms and laser cannons in the DMG, but that doesn't mean you have to use them in your game. It's one thing to have rules for something, it's another for them to be already included in a specific campaign world.
I don't think S3 constituted a world spanning opinion on technology, nor did City of the Gods as each instance was just a one off to be visited and little else.
But trains flying aorund in the sky? Subway system for hack and slashers. Yeah, that's got steampunk and whatever other names you wanna apply to it.
Eberron blows. So sayeth Norton.
Meh. There seem to be a growing list of fans for it.
For me, I grew up on Forgotten Realms. I remembered picking up the first gray 1e boxed set back in 1988. Ever since then, I have such a comfort level that I probably may not want to try something else, not even the new setting, Eberron.
You probably think they don't have to, but WotC want to, to give an idea of using much of the D&D rules they can.
There is no one true way to play D&D.
What is the age of the "growning list of fans"? Thats right teens to early twenties so the anime fits right in, my kids like that junk and they love EB. As someone who grew up on Greyhawk I like my settings a little more with a mature feel and less cartoons
Not necessarily true. My friends and I are late twenties and early thirties and we are looking to start an Eberron game soon. Most of them are long-time gamers while I'm new as of 3e. The fact that it has a place for everything D&D and that it's something new and refreshing for D&D makes it interesting to us. It's a clean slate as far as campaign worlds go, and it's something new to try out.
We're not so stuck on "traditional" D&D, I guess.
You have to remember that Amaril is Eberron's new cheerleader. Once you figure that out, he's easier to deal with.
Uhh... ok??? I've yet to run a game in the setting, and l've only expressed my personal views of what I've read so far. There's no need to be condescending about it.
"traditional" D&D? I've played 1st, 2nd and now 3.5. So what is traditional? EB just reads like a comic book with bad heros (not cool bad just plain bad). Maybe I just don't like bad comedy. When I read new stuff about Greyhawk I'm still interested after 25 years, EB it took about 16 minutes.
not attacking you here. I'm only saying that we like to explore different rpg experiences as a group. I still run a 'traditional' game set in Greyhawk which I love more than anything else. Some of my friends say I'm obsessed with it. :p And when I say 'traditional,' I mean the typical good guys fight evil monsters type of game.
If you don't want people defending Eberron, don't bash it. Both are equally out of place in a Greyhawk forum.
Let's move on people, there are better things to talk about. (Yes I'm quoting myself from last week. I don't know why this discussion is continuing.)