I could also ask why the FR and CS weren't defiled during the cleansing wars, I know the last sea was because of the mind lords. Thri Kreen lived in the savana, and since they had a civilization why didn't rajaat see that they were NOT animals like the book Thri-Kreen of Athas says?
Anyone else not like it, how the SK's are confined to the Tyr region or Near it? The wars were supposed to have defiled the entire planet, so why aren't there some on the other side of Athas for example, I'm also curious to know what's on the other side of the sea of silt, the VODAF is in it, not on the other side. And the epicenter of the earthquake, which is said it be in an area not even the wanderer has visited
In Rise and fall of a dragon king in mentions a champion named Penarin who while not mentioned anywhere in game material (and said by Kevin Melka to be non-canon/unofficial, etc) could serve as the champion to kill Pyreen if you prefer, since Rajaat didn't have one to do that
Also, to restore the world to the blue age and rid all the other races, wouldn't Rajaat need to kill himself as well?
I was wondering exactly, the original DS boxed set said that Borys- the dragon ( a dragon at least and called simply the dragon until the crimson legion novel) wandered all parts of Athas- which would include the forest ridge, last sea, and the crimson savana, the savanna at most I wonder why it was never defiled by him.
The wanderers journals are just that. IC descriptions of Athas. As far as the wanderer knew Borys traveled all over the known part of Athas (The Tyr Region). He was also suspected of travelling elsewhere. In valley of dust and fire it mentions that the dragon had become less interested in the outside world, and that other things were on his mind - possibly he only left ur draxa for the purposes of keeping rajaat's prison whole.
I could also ask why the FR and CS weren't defiled during the cleansing wars, I know the last sea was because of the mind lords. Thri Kreen lived in the savana, and since they had a civilization why didn't rajaat see that they were NOT animals like the book Thri-Kreen of Athas says?
The Cleansing Wars were fought where the rebirth races had settled, Rajaat forbade the champions from going to the forest ridge, and as far as we know the other side of the sea was off limits. Even though defiling destroys the soil i imagine that places other than the tyr region (the epicenter of the conflict as it was the epicenter of the Rebirth civilisations) have stabilised in the millenium since - if not recovered (since besides the defiling there is also the impact of the sun and worsened climate). The tablelands are permanently damaged, druids and pyreens cant do much to help because of the threat of the SK's, perhaps they are more active west and north of the Tyr Region?
Anyone else not like it, how the SK's are confined to the Tyr region or Near it? The wars were supposed to have defiled the entire planet, so why aren't there some on the other side of Athas for example, I'm also curious to know what's on the other side of the sea of silt, the VODAF is in it, not on the other side. And the epicenter of the earthquake, which is said it be in an area not even the wanderer has visited
Personally im okay with it. The SK's rule cities and thats what they are (mostly) happy to be doing. Okay, one of em wants to become a god, and another wants to kill the rest, but mostly they have achieved their goals. Sure they could move to the hinterland or the crimson savannah, but they enjoy been at the top, love controlling cities - and even better - the state of the tablelands means the population of the city is reliant on their SK's. How long after Nibenay (for example) transported his citizens to the hinterlands for a better life before they left, got fat lazy and wiped out by monsters, or had an uprising (lead by defilers who quite enjoyed all the extra power from the terrain).
In Rise and fall of a dragon king in mentions a champion named Penarin who while not mentioned anywhere in game material (and said by Kevin Melka to be non-canon/unofficial, etc) could serve as the champion to kill Pyreen if you prefer, since Rajaat didn't have one to do that
Will leave Pennarin out of it. Dont have Rise and Fall. Maybe the Pyreen simply arent numerous or active enough to be a threat? Rajaat didnt create a champion for every race, just the ones that he decided were the most dangerous to his genocidal plan.
Also, to restore the world to the blue age and rid all the other races, wouldn't Rajaat need to kill himself as well?
He would have probably stayed around to guide the Halflings, and i bet he would have been REAL strict on them. None of this windriders crap or forest ridge barbarians. If he restored the Blue Age it would have been just perfect (or at least as perfect as he knew it).
The wanderers journals are just that. IC descriptions of Athas. As far as the wanderer knew Borys traveled all over the known part of Athas (The Tyr Region). He was also suspected of travelling elsewhere. In valley of dust and fire it mentions that the dragon had become less interested in the outside world, and that other things were on his mind - possibly he only left ur draxa for the purposes of keeping rajaat's prison whole.
This was a book in the original dark sun boxed set, not the wanderers journal in the revised, and when it gives the description of the dragon (as a MM entry in the back of the book) it says "The dragon wanders ALL parts of athas"
The Cleansing Wars were fought where the rebirth races had settled, Rajaat forbade the champions from going to the forest ridge, and as far as we know the other side of the sea was off limits.
I don't think there's anything that says he forbade them to go across to the other side of the sea of silt. It's never been disputed that the wars defiled the entire planet (except certain other places, like the Forest Ridge), right on the cover of the original dark sun boxed set, it says "Visit Athas, the world of the dark sun, a world ravaged by sorcery" as well as many other places, both in the novels and game material.
Even though defiling destroys the soil i imagine that places other than the tyr region (the epicenter of the conflict as it was the epicenter of the Rebirth civilisations) have stabilised in the millenium since - if not recovered (since besides the defiling there is also the impact of the sun and worsened climate). The tablelands are permanently damaged, druids and pyreens cant do much to help because of the threat of the SK's, perhaps they are more active west and north of the Tyr Region?
something defiled is worse than even uprooted, it is unnaturally dead, more so than if you uprooted the plants and salted the ground.
Personally im okay with it. The SK's rule cities and thats what they are (mostly) happy to be doing.Okay, one of em wants to become a god, and another wants to kill the rest
Well, take the obsidian man mentioned in the book of artifacts, one of the suggested means of destruction to expose it to 24 hours of continous sunlight, which would either require teleporting it to the other side of athas at dusk, or making a wormhole (a psionic power) which light can shine through onto it, or using the planar gate for the same purpose. would have to probably go to the other side, I'm not even sure if wormhole allows light through, I know with dimension door, it's just a shimmering outline, not a window like opening you can see through.
I know that Dregoth also wants to kill all non dray, don't know of another 1 sk who wants to kill the others, think pretty much all of them want to kill the othersHow long after Nibenay (for example) transported his citizens to the hinterlands for a better life before they left, got fat lazy and wiped out by monsters, or had an uprising (lead by defilers who quite enjoyed all the extra power from the terrain).
According to the maps I have, the hinterlands west of the forest ridge are desert, or sparse brushlands at best, and why wouldn't the sk's go to other lush places, they are defilers as well, and would have more energy/power there.
And we know the regions mapped, Tyr, Jagged Cliffs and Dead lands aren't the whole of Athas, since there's that point of the epicenter where the great earthquake originated, and I remember it says I think in Dragon Kings, that the Tyr region was only a small part of Athas
The world probably wasn't a wasteland when the Champions stopped fighting to imprison Rajaat. It probably became a wasteland during the next 100 years, when the crazed Dragon ravaged the world, defiling all life where it could find it.
From the city state of Tyr book, under Kalak's description as a champion in the the cleansing wars- the wars defiled the planet, and left it the barren wasteland it is today
Try one word: inconsistency.
And another two: setting progression.
Alright, and a few more: omniscient narration.
Dark Sun is full of inconsistencies, furthermore the setting progressed over the years and old information got re- or overwritten, and last but not least most of the "fluff" information is being delivered through a narration of some kind, ususally the Wanderer's storytelling, which is not omniscient.
Loosen up a bit.
What you wrote and argued about...its not the first time someone has done so.
The people who come on these boards for answers usually come to understand there's not that many absolutes, and that some absolutes are not even interpreted the way they think it should be. So these people argue a lot, usually don't listen, and leave the boards enraged and we never see them again. The others eventually come to understand the intricacies of the information provided by the setting's various sources, and accept their inconsistencies. I'm one of these people, and so are the other regualrs.
But I have to say that those inconsistencies allow us, the fans, more freedom to shape the world to our choosing.
They are dragons.. they can absorb energy for their spells from plants.. what's more lush than the energy within their own cities??? Tyr was sufficient for Kalak to attempt a transformation that would theoretically jump him 6-10 levels in one shot.. no champion, not even Borys.. could likely cast ten 10th level spells.. or 'psionic' enchantments.. in one day.. they don't have the memory capacity for it... hence.. why would they need to go to a more 'lush' land when they had all they needed right there??? why be a herbivore when you can be a carnivor magically speaking??? Borys' city was especially rich with life.. from many many high level npc's to undead, to trees of life... they stockpiled their power.. trust me.. And if they get attacked by another city or a swarm of thri-kreen from outisde the Tyr Valley?? oh gee.. like an endless vaccuum for life energy would really complain about more food charging down its gullet..
seriously, am I wrong here??Personally, I think of all material as canon, and yet alternate. In the world I am running, Kalak is alive, Borys is alive, Abalach Re and the rest of the SKs are alive. Rikus, Sadira don't exist. Basically, I take the Prism Pentad novels and historical novelizations in a sense. This is someone's story of what might have happened, but not in my world.
As for why Rajaat didn't create champions for Thri-Kreen, they existed on the world before the rebirth,and as such it was not necessary to wipe them out to return the world to the way it was before the rebirth.
But basically, like pointed out above. A lot of material was released without 100% background check to make sure it didn't contradict something already released. And as long as you take all "fluff" to be "first-hand accounts" it is easy to explain why two different people have two different stories to explain why one thing works the way it does.
Lots of inconsitencies. One of which being the Giant issue. Jo'orsh and Sa'ram being dwarves who stole the dark lense, went off and turned into the progenitors of the giant race (after the betrayal), yet Dregoth was the Ravager of Giants.. which, by the former logic hadn't been birthed while he was a champion...
Their was a thread about that, we came to the conclusion that you shouldn't trust the 1st person account of a Giant, I think. :heehee
I mean, you do have to consider the information in context.
And as long as you take all "fluff" to be "first-hand accounts" it is easy to explain why two different people have two different stories to explain why one thing works the way it does.
Loosen up a bit.
What you wrote and argued about...its not the first time someone has done so.
The people who come on these boards for answers usually come to understand there's not that many absolutes, and that some absolutes are not even interpreted the way they think it should be. So these people argue a lot, usually don't listen, and leave the boards enraged and we never see them again. The others eventually come to understand the intricacies of the information provided by the setting's various sources, and accept their inconsistencies. I'm one of these people, and so are the other regualrs.
Well, I was aware that is has inconsistencies, but I think armies when defiling (or preserving magic) wasn't even illegal, would do a lot more damage that even lots of dragons,
I remember DS has at least a semi-canon continuity policy according Kevin Melka- way back before he was fired from TSR near christmas of 96, that the novels and game material do share some things but they are not meant to be the same, the prism pentad is official for the most part- it shares most and Lynn Abbey's books he was total disgusted with.
Tyr was sufficient for Kalak to attempt a transformation that would theoretically jump him 6-10 levels in one shot.. no champion, not even Borys.. could likely cast ten 10th level spells.. or 'psionic' enchantments.. in one day.. they don't have the memory capacity for it... hence.. why would they need to go to a more 'lush' land when they had all they needed right there???
In no way is it possible to cast 10 dragon metamorphosis spells in a row if you're not 100-150 levels already, the backlash damage itself will kill you.
Kalak's method must have been, using 3E rules, a single spell that gives you the effects of all 10 spells, mitigated with an insanely costly focus structure.
At least, that's what discussions with epic bureau templars gave me to believe.
I remember DS has at least a semi-canon continuity policy according Kevin Melka- way back before he was fired from TSR near christmas of 96, that the novels and game material do share some things but they are not meant to be the same, the prism pentad is official for the most part- it shares most and Lynn Abbey's books he was total disgusted with.
Lol, and Troy Denning loved them! So did Slaviscek I think, can't remember. NytCrawlr would know better, having done the FAQs with these guys.
Anyone else not like it, how the SK's are confined to the Tyr region or Near it? The wars were supposed to have defiled the entire planet, so why aren't there some on the other side of Athas for example, I'm also curious to know what's on the other side of the sea of silt, the VODAF is in it, not on the other side. And the epicenter of the earthquake, which is said it be in an area not even the wanderer has visited
I would say they aren't confined to just the Tyr region, but then again I don't buy the idea that there were just 15(ish) Champions either. Or that only 5 of them remain active.
In Rise and fall of a dragon king in mentions a champion named Penarin who while not mentioned anywhere in game material (and said by Kevin Melka to be non-canon/unofficial, etc) could serve as the champion to kill Pyreen if you prefer, since Rajaat didn't have one to do that
I believe the consensus was reach long before I started posting that Pennarin was charged with the extermination of dopplegangers. What I found really interesting about RaFoaDK is Hamanu's statement that Rajaat had made a score of Champions. Of course, Miss Abby doesn't seem to know how many are in a score, and Hamanu states immediately afterward that only 7 survived to present times, but it's still an intriguing idea.
Also, to restore the world to the blue age and rid all the other races, wouldn't Rajaat need to kill himself as well?
I would say that Rajaat probably meant for Hamanu to kill him when the rest of the Rebirth races were gone.
This was a book in the original dark sun boxed set, not the wanderers journal in the revised, and when it gives the description of the dragon (as a MM entry in the back of the book) it says "The dragon wanders ALL parts of athas"
The book you got that from is also the Wanderer's Journal. Since we are using a direct quote heres another one "Fortunately, there is only one Dragon in the Tyr Region". Hmm, actually there are a few of them. Suppose it should say, only one fully metamorphed Dragon.
I don't think there's anything that says he forbade them to go across to the other side of the sea of silt. It's never been disputed that the wars defiled the entire planet (except certain other places, like the Forest Ridge), right on the cover of the original dark sun boxed set, it says "Visit Athas, the world of the dark sun, a world ravaged by sorcery" as well as many other places, both in the novels and game material.
You cant say defiled the entire planet then say except for. Clearly the whole planet wasnt defiled. Or it would all look like the tablelands, and it doesnt.
something defiled is worse than even uprooted, it is unnaturally dead, more so than if you uprooted the plants and salted the ground.
I guess the Druids should all shoot themselves then. The druids can restore things, it just takes them a lot longer than it does a defiler to defile (whats the quote? its easier to destroy than to build?).
Personally im okay with it. The SK's rule cities and thats what they are (mostly) happy to be doing.
Well, take the obsidian man mentioned in the book of artifacts, one of the suggested means of destruction to expose it to 24 hours of continous sunlight, which would either require teleporting it to the other side of athas at dusk, or making a wormhole (a psionic power) which light can shine through onto it, or using the planar gate for the same purpose. would have to probably go to the other side, I'm not even sure if wormhole allows light through, I know with dimension door, it's just a shimmering outline, not a window like opening you can see through.
I know that Dregoth also wants to kill all non dray, don't know of another 1 sk who wants to kill the others, think pretty much all of them want to kill the others
I meant Oronis, he lacks the power at the moment (and i dont think he ever will become powerful enough), but he might kill them if he could (i dont know if hes that bloodthirsty - but hes got it in him to be genocidal). The mention of the Obsidian Man has lost me, and i dont have that book so cant comment on it.According to the maps I have, the hinterlands west of the forest ridge are desert, or sparse brushlands at best, and why wouldn't the sk's go to other lush places, they are defilers as well, and would have more energy/power there.
The Crimson Savannah looks pretty green - oh i know it isnt forests or anything, but still better than the tablelands. And the SK's seem pretty content with the state of the part of Athas they control. Why are they going to go somewhere else? they have everything they could want where they are. Most of them seem to have accepted the status quo (they arent eager to advance as Dragons after all).And we know the regions mapped, Tyr, Jagged Cliffs and Dead lands aren't the whole of Athas, since there's that point of the epicenter where the great earthquake originated, and I remember it says I think in Dragon Kings, that the Tyr region was only a small part of Athas
Anyone else not like it, how the SK's are confined to the Tyr region or Near it?
Let's not forget that the Dragon required of the SK's a levy of, at last count, 1,000 people in order to power the spells required to keep their former master under wraps. Not an easy task for some nomadic tribe roamin' the rest of the world, where no people are known to exist.
I think it would be kind of boring if the entire world were like the tablelands. Sure the world is in a horrible state, but there are some places of life and beauty if only to constrast with the scorched wastes and dust filled sea that cover most of the planet. There has to be some hope, otherwise whats the point of fighting.
There is no hope- becasue the KALTHANDRIX, FLAYER OF HALFLINGS is here to see that all enter the Grey knowing that their pitiful lives were meaningless!!! :evillaugh
But I do totally agree that there has to be some areas of Athas that have not felt the death grip of defilers and Rajaat's followers.
The continent that the known world is on should be only a bit larger than Australia.
Climatic changes happen all the time that don’t adversely affect the entire worlds climate, the Middle East use to be a nice lushly place with grasses and trees but over a few hundred years it turned into what it is today and has stayed that way.
The bottom line is that the long term use of magic both preserving and defiling coupled with the probable effects of “the brown tide” (which started the downward spiral) sent the region in to the ecological chaos and turned the area into a desert.
There could very well be other areas of Athas that did not have this happen to.
I think the over all world climate may be to warm for polar ice caps also we know the sun is a red sun it is started in many places. This would make the sun of Athas a red giant.
Scientifically this would mean that there is a large amount of radiation given off by the sun, by earth standards this would be fatal to all life, and the coloration of the sky may be a reaction of a gas in the upper atmosphere with all the radiation the sun is giving off, basically the only thing keeping life a live. This would explain some of the fluff history, the halflings doing something that caused a dramatic shift in the sun ending the blue age.
I think there probably are several areas that have not been significantly harmed by this change the way that the Tyr region has because they did not have mages going around and sucking up the life force of the land. Preservers are also to blame for the state of the Tyr region, while they do not defile they do weaken the plant life and eventually this will damage the area if it is used over a long period of time.
So, I say that maybe there is abundant water elsewhere as well as trees, grass, fluffy fire breathing bunnies, and maybe some other non-intelligent life forms.
I remember DS has at least a semi-canon continuity policy according Kevin Melka-
So because we have a law that forbids jaywalking, no one does it? Good argument. It doesn't matter if there was a policy, it was obviously not followed: just read through the contradictory canon materials.
and Lynn Abbey's books he was total disgusted with.
Lynn's novels are some of the finest writing in the DS series, whether they are completely consistent with canon or not. They are head-and-shoulders above most of the crap that was written: the awful Tribe of One garbage -- and I'm not talking plot or canon here, just *bad writing* -- and to a lesser extent, the Prism Pentad (which I dislike for totally different reasons).
You also have to remember that Abbey herself complained that TSR was keeping the book department seperate from the game department and had cut off communications between them. She tried to get answers to questions about various items in the Dark Sun world, but never recieved any responses from the game department to those queries. So she had to wing it (being under contract to produce a finished novel in a given amount of time and all).
Well i feel like i was setup for that response, were you waiting till someone took the bait? I would say something about the inconsistencies and all, but i think Penn covered them quite succintly.
The book you got that from is also the Wanderer's Journal. Since we are using a direct quote heres another one "Fortunately, there is only one Dragon in the Tyr Region". Hmm, actually there are a few of them. Suppose it should say, only one fully metamorphed Dragon.
Well, the Wanderer's Journal is a first hand accounting of events as perceived by the Wanderer. It is easy for this one guy to only have ever seen one Dragon, and only have ever heard tales of One Dragon, and therefore believe that there is only one Dragon on Athas.
You cant say defiled the entire planet then say except for. Clearly the whole planet wasnt defiled. Or it would all look like the tablelands, and it doesnt.
Look at how long it was acepted as fact that the world was flat, because no one had yet managed to prove otherwise. The Wanderer cannot fly, maybe he has been to all of the tablelands with no ability to move beyond, therefore he has visited the entire world and it is defiled. Who cares if there is life (and world) beyond the jagged cliffs or great rift of Silt Sea, since he hasn't been there (and no one else has repoted being there) it must not exist.
Like I said before, I don't think there has been anything released that says "this is 100% accurate" when it comes to fluff/history/details, with the exception maybe of the timeline. Almost all historical fluff is presented as being experienced by the Wanderer, and as such it is easy to come out with stuff that contradicts him, because people are easily misled, they believe things they only see/experience, etc, and beliefs are usually based on opinions. Two different people can believe that they are each the best swordsman in the region, and as such, stories will differ when they recount the adventures of the best swordsman in the region.
Personally, I think of all material as canon, and yet alternate. In the world I am running, Kalak is alive, Borys is alive, Abalach Re and the rest of the SKs are alive. Rikus, Sadira don't exist. Basically, I take the Prism Pentad novels and historical novelizations in a sense. This is someone's story of what might have happened, but not in my world.
What about Agis and Tithian, and Neeva? Do they exist in your campaign?
As for why Rajaat didn't create champions for Thri-Kreen, they existed on the world before the rebirth,and as such it was not necessary to wipe them out to return the world to the way it was before the rebirth.
That does seem to make sense, however, the only thing I think we have on Rajaat's opinion of Thri-Kreen is when Thri-Kreen of Athas says he thought they were animals.
But basically, like pointed out above. A lot of material was released without 100% background check to make sure it didn't contradict something already released. And as long as you take all "fluff" to be "first-hand accounts" it is easy to explain why two different people have two different stories to explain why one thing works the way it does.
How does the consistency of DS material compare to that of other AD&D worlds? And don't most people prefer Athas be a wasteland, with few safe havens, as per it supposedly being a savage harsh place to survive and live in?