Hope this article helps:
How the Countries of Mystara Relate to Real-World Cultures
Ways in which it is possible to draw parallels between the world of Mystara (KW) and our own world (RW).
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* Aalban. Imperial Austria/Germany.
* Alphatia. Obviously, it's difficult to draw any parallels between Alphatia and a RW country because Alphatia (1) is an alien culture to Mystara, and (2) is magically-based. But there are a few indicators that point to at least a reference point in ancient Babylon: first, the figure on the cover of the Alphatian book of the Dawn of the Emperors (DotE) boxed set; second, the Alphatian naming process (augury). I plan to develop Alphatia (if I ever get around to it
using Babylonian names and ideas, but with its own unique culture.* Atruaghin Clans. Native American culture, differentiating according to clan. For example, Children of the Bear as the cliff-dwelling Pueblos of the SW, Children of the Tiger as the Iroquois, etc.
* Averoigne. France (I prefer the culture of Averoigne to evoke the feel of the cultured court of medieval Aquitaine, while retaining a more pastoral, southern feel for Morlay-Malinbois).
* Bellayne. Bellayne has a English country-gentry feel to it, but I don't know how far that will fly in a culture that must descend somehow from the Japanese-style culture of Myoshima (?).
* Berghdoven. Flanders
* Blackhill. See Alphatia
* Boldavia. Although Boldavians are Traladaran in descent, the Player's Survival Kit (PSK) hints that the cultures have diverged, perhaps due to Boldavian isolation. Traditional Hungarian culture offers a darker, more romantic feel for Boldavia.
* Bramyra. See Krondahar
* Caurenze. The late medieval Italian states, especially Rome and the south (maybe Campania?). For a good feel of this time, check out anything on the Borgias (murder, mayhem, assassination, all that great Innocenti di Malaprieta stuff!).
* Darokin. I love Darokin: take Renaissance Florence and add a good dose of latter-day American commercialism, and you've about got it. I like to diversify them some, since so many in the "Land of Leftovers" are immigrants; for example, IMC, Northern Darokinians are mostly of Caurenzian descent (for an Italian flavour).
* Ethengar. Mongolia.
* Eusdria. Saxon England.
* Fenswick. Any generic, late medieval, English countrside village will do.
* Glantri. See separate Principalities.
* Heldann Freeholds. One of the Antalian nations; since I have the Northern Reaches nations as Denmark and Scandinavia (see below), I like Heldann as Iceland. Geoff Gander from the MML has suggested Teutonic Germany, which I find intriguing.
* Hinterlands. Celtic Europe (the mainland, not Britain).
* Hule. I am currently developing Hule (Huyule) along the lines of Turkey/Ottoman Empire.
* Ierendi. Ignoring the hin and the Thyatians there, I use Hawaii for the feel of the Makai culture.
* Jen. I didn't have a clue here, but my friends at the Mystara Mailing List have suggested the Scythians, and I think they have good evidence in their favour.
* Karameikos. I treat Traladaran culture as a generalized Eastern Europe. The former Yugoslavian states are best, since they capture the Greek-descended feel which Traladara would, of course, have. For subcultures such as the Darine or Dom, use Eastern subcultures (i.e., the Gypsies).
* Klantyre. Scottish Highlands.
* Krondahar. Mughal Dynasty India/Pakistan (see my rundown on Krondaharan culture)
* Minaea. While it would be fine to use Greece for this former Milenian colony, Classical Greece would be far too intricate for Minea (use that instead for HW Milenia). Maybe one of the old Achaean colonies, or Greek Cyprus?
* Minrothad. Granted, this is a tough one, with all the different cultures intermingling here, but to capture the enterprising spirit of Minrothad, I like to look to the Netherlands at its height of economic and sea-faring power (late seventeenth century).
* Morlay-Malinbois. See Averoigne
* Norwold. Kind of an amalgamation: Alphatian culture meets Scandinavia meets the terrain of rugged Alaska/Siberia.
* Ochalea. Classical China.
* Ostland. Since I use the Scandinavian countries for the Northern Reaches IMC, I peg sea-faring Ostland as Norway. But Denmark also fits quite well. . .it depends on your preference.
* Pearl Islands. Polynesia/Tahiti.
* Renardy. Pre-revolutionary France (thank you Geoff Gander for this observation), probably either the reign of Louis XIV (expansion of the royal estates, broadening of the noble class) or Louis XVI (mainly for time period and economic considerations).
* Robrenn. Gaul or Brittany (thanks again, Geoff!:-)
* Sablestone. Sablestone is a fairly new principality, and owes everything to immigration. Use Caurenze along with some Berghdoven and Aalban
* Savage Baronies. For the Espans, I use Spain, at different points in her history and her colonies (for example, Narvaez would be Inquisition Spain, while Guadalante would be Argentina, with its pampas and wide-open skies, etc). For the Verdans (did I get the distinction right?), I use Portugal in the colonial period, at the height of its sea power.
* Sind. India.
* Soderfjord. I've used Finland IMC, at least for the commoners. But Shane Henry (thanks, Shane!) gives compelling evidence for Soderfjord as Norway. In that case, use Denmark for Ostland.
* Thothia. Egypt. I figure that if Nithia was ancient Egypt at its zenith, then Thothia would still retain that culture. Thothia's religious abandonment of Nithian ways would not have to necessarily be a bad thing; Egypt is a Muslim nation now, and is just as culturally rich.
* Thyatian Empire. Well, here's a tricky one. I haven't entirely worked this out, but for what it's worth, here's my opinion. IMC, I use the Roman Empire for Thyatians, Byzantium for Kerendans, and the early Holy Roman Empire (i.e., old Germany) for Hattias. Now, Thyatis is still Thyatis; this is just a cultural distinction. Remember, the Roman Empire got so big that they had to split it in two (East and West, with the Eastern half becoming the so-called Byzantine Empire). I also figure that there would be other ethnic minorities elsewhere in the Empire, such as Gauls, Goths, Jews, Lombards, Etruscans (which would be where the Caurenzians came from). See James Ruhland's site for the ultimate source on Thyatis as Byzantium.
* Ulimwengu. I'm not very familiar with African cultures, so I have used some Central African names for the Karimari. I would appreciate any opinions or help on the matter.
* Vestland. Sweden (the most Western of the Scandinavian countries).
* Yavdlom. Again, being not-so-familiar with Africa, I used Eastern African names for the Tanagoro, since Eastern Africa was once the great empire of Kush (and Yavdlom obviously has had such a rich and highly-developed culture).
* Ylaruam. Any Arabic culture will do, I suppose, but I like to differentiate between Emirates by using different Middle-Eastern nations, terminating with Pakistan as Makistan (the Mughal influence there parallels the Ethengarian-descended Makistanians).
* Bellayne. Bellayne has a English country-gentry feel to it, but I don't know how far that will fly in a culture that must descend somehow from the Japanese-style culture of Myoshima (?).
I always treat Bellayne as a Japanese culture trying to be western (the city-Rakasta adopted a mix of Renardois and Ispan culture which turned into a British theme when they made it their own). They still have Samurai (honorbound), but with the exception of Katanas (matara) , and martial arts (Torasta), they don't follow the same ancient practices. They also have tea-time (an Oriental tradition that evolved into the English version). The northern Rakasta still hold true to their Oriental roots however, and consider the city dwellers to be pampered dandies.
I always treat Bellayne as a Japanese culture trying to be western (the city-Rakasta adopted a mix of Renardois and Ispan culture which turned into a British theme when they made it their own). They still have Samurai (honorbound), but with the exception of Katanas (matara) , and martial arts (Torasta), they don't follow the same ancient practices. They also have tea-time (an Oriental tradition that evolved into the English version). The northern Rakasta still hold true to their Oriental roots however, and consider the city dwellers to be pampered dandies.
That is correct, at least according to the Red Steel box. Bellayne can be either:
- Feudal Japan (Red Steel version).
- 17th Century/Elisabethan England (VotPA version).
In any case, the Bellayne Rakastas are not descended from the Myoshimian Rakasta, though they are related somehow. The map names of Bellayne even in the RS version are English-sounding so making them Japanese doesnt really sit that well with me.
Håvard
That is correct, at least according to the Red Steel box. Bellayne can be either:
- Feudal Japan (Red Steel version).
- 17th Century/Elisabethan England (VotPA version).
In any case, the Bellayne Rakastas are not descended from the Myoshimian Rakasta, though they are related somehow. The map names of Bellayne even in the RS version are English-sounding so making them Japanese doesnt really sit that well with me.
I finally read a bit of Red Steel recently, and I just checked it again now. Ewwww!!! What a mess they made of it. Admittedly Bruce Heard's sense of humour doesn't suit everyone, but inserting a human culture who (conveniently) mysteriously died out in order to explain Bellayne culture is really weak.
The map names have all the fun taken out of them too. I actually *liked* all the feline references in the names. The English style actually made them fit quite well, without seeming too jokey - because after all, English names often do have an element of whimsy in them.
* Thothia. Egypt. I figure that if Nithia was ancient Egypt at its zenith, then Thothia would still retain that culture. Thothia's religious abandonment of Nithian ways would not have to necessarily be a bad thing; Egypt is a Muslim nation now, and is just as culturally rich.
I would agree tha Nithia roughly parrallels ancient Egypt, but I tend to see Thothia as more of a Ptolemaic-dynasty Egypt, one influenced heavily by other great cultures. Maybe it's mostly just that I think having the perfect setting for Cleopatra-era intrigues is just too good to pass up
I would agree tha Nithia roughly parrallels ancient Egypt, but I tend to see Thothia as more of a Ptolemaic-dynasty Egypt, one influenced heavily by other great cultures. Maybe it's mostly just that I think having the perfect setting for Cleopatra-era intrigues is just too good to pass up
I am in agreement with this interpretation, myself. I even worked in an Alphatian dynasty along those lines, post-Spell of Oblivion Thothia (which I talk about a little bit here but I would have sworn I did a more detailed timeline... I've possibly never posted it, though...)
Also fits well against Thaytis, links the cultures to a similar level.
Been studying Carthage lately :D
I've had that culture list for years, but you know what always bothered me, there is no country that relates to any Jewish culture. Where is the Orthodox Jewish culture in Mystara?
Herath is thought, by some, to be a possible Mystaran equivalent of Jewish culture, if only because the place names sound Hebrew (even if the actual names themselves do not appear to mean anything in Hebrew). It was discussed very briefly on the MML a while back. As there is very little in the way of official material describing Herathian culture, it would be up to the DM to pursue this.
Geoff
Herath is thought, by some, to be a possible Mystaran equivalent of Jewish culture, if only because the place names sound Hebrew (even if the actual names themselves do not appear to mean anything in Hebrew). It was discussed very briefly on the MML a while back. As there is very little in the way of official material describing Herathian culture, it would be up to the DM to pursue this.
Geoff
Where is Herath located? I'm not part of the MML, so I'm a little in the dark about Herath.
It seems to me, that if we want to have a Hebrew style culture, and parallel the RW just a bit, then this culture should originate from ancient Nithia. This Hebrew-ish (lets call them Herathi for lack of a better name) culture can have their Exodus, only to return to what they feel is their Promise Land. If we want to really parallel the RW, then this culture could be the culture that now occupies Tel Akbir. Since Tel Akbir was part of Ylaruam, which is in the area of what was Nithia, then that would make logical sense. Of course having an Arab (Ylari) and Jewish (Herathi) conflict and tension in the game might be a bit too gritty. The RW cultures and their (ancient) conflicts should not be trivialized, but in a fantasy world, as long as a campaign does not associate one culture Good and the other as Evil, but two different cultures that can't put aside their own beliefs and claims to land, there is room for these conflicting people.
Like I said, this can only work effectively as long as this is not reduced into a vulgar Good vs Evil plot. It is easy to say, in a game setting, that Ylari are the "Good" and the Herathi are "Evil", or vice versa. But that will trivialize BOTH the cultures and there should be no tolerance for that.
I'm actually a little intrigued by the Herathi, or maybe an Exodus group, located in Hule. Could this be the culture that dominated the area before Bozdogan took over? It would fit an interesting warning/Commandment in the RW Jewish stories: "Do not worship false idols." How true is that in Hule?
I have the "Jewish" culture in my campaigns as usually small culture that is usually enslaved or oppressed. I usually put them in Hule where there is plenty of room and they are made slaves to the Master. Sort of like the hebrews of Egypt in the time of Moses. I always thought the old testament fit well with the theme. It's not cannon, but I always thought the Immortals were suspicious of another being that even they are unable to find or identify, but they feel it's presence and sometimes they feel it's involvement in Mystara issues and events. The "Jews/Hebrews" in my campaigns worship this "being" that has no name known.
I LIKE this idea. Consider it stolen :D
Herath is part of the Savage Coast, near the Orc's Head Peninsula, and is a land ruled by the aranea, who use human forms to deal with all non-aranea.
As far as Players know, Herath is a Magiocracy where all races are equal, and magical talent is the means to political standing. Its primary religion is best described as druidic, with a heavy emphasis on insects. Not what I'd consider Hebrew by any stretch of the imagination. I'm still having trouble with this country and Ator, Cay, and Shaz; they don't seem to have any RW analogs. It seems strange, but completely fancifull countries seem out of place in Mystara.
It's possible that the Jewish culture in the Known World is not one of the original Isreal, but instead one of European Jews prior to the 1930's. The Gnomes have no country to call their own, but make small, prosperous communities all over.
The two cultures in the real world where linked based on trade and location as well as slavery.
Hebrews maintained their own culture, when enslaved that can be tied to the spell of preservation and can be reflected in Nithian slaves of Tangoro origin.
Word of warning.
Using Gnomes culture could cause problems, as the other cultures are still represented by alternative human cultures, using non-human representation could be used to reflect unintentionaly prejudice, even in a game.
Word of warning.
Using Gnomes culture could cause problems, as the other cultures are still represented by alternative human cultures, using non-human representation could be used to reflect unintentionaly prejudice, even in a game.
Hey, as a lover of gnomes, I find that to be rather offensive! :P
Seriously, I think you're overthinking things. If gnomish culture bearing a resemblance to Jewish culture can be taken as offensive, I would point out that assuming gnomes are anything less than the equals of humans and other demi-humans is equally offensive - racist, in fact.
Also, no Mystaran nation resembles completely its real world "equivalent", and in fact most nations are significantly different. No real world culture should take offense at its Mystaran counterpart.
And if you disagree with that, please explain to me how gnomish Jews could possibly be more offensive than stereotypical Scotsmen ruled by an evil lich!
Although I'm not Jewish, I have Jewish friends that would be insulted by anything in Mystara being based on their culture. I don't agree with it, but some people are very sensitive about those things in this country.
Back on Topic, I don't think the Gnome idea is a bad one...
I am not happy with Political Correctness gone mad, but when posting ideas on a open site we do have to be careful.
Race in the fantasy setting is totally different to Race in the RW.
RW Scotsman vs Mystara Scotsman, you are not changing its race, only adding fantasy elements. The same can be said about Ylari, Sindi, Atrughan settings. The counter parts have not had a change of race. Looking at the list most linked cultures are still human orientated, with the odd exception.
We are also looking at a culture that has been degraded and characterised as being less then human, to some in it is living memory. With terrible consequences. There is a lot stong feelings out there on the subject. It is also not the only culture to have suffered degrading characterisation.
Being Jewish, I would like to find a way to incorporate a Jewish-like culture as a human culture. At the same time, i'm not offended by the Gnome idea. If there is no logical place for a human Jewish culture, and it makes sense, then the idea of the Gnomes might be a way. I'm personally open to new ideas, as long as it does not unbalance the Mystara world.
If some of the Gnomes become "Jewish", they will have company. The Irish are represented by the Hin and I have not read any major objections to it.
But as I think of it, maybe it is best not to incorporate Jewish culture. The Mystara Known World has been almost completely worked out. It is a tight fit. Adding the Jewish culture now would be ramming it in, doing no good to Mystara or Jewish culture. I'd rather ignore it than making a bad fit.
Maybe in Davania they can exist? But, who the heck adventures down there? :D
Also, the style of D&D has always been more of the Christian Crusade Knights and Charlemagne type characters. Not a good fit for Jews, too much vilification in the old stories and histories.
However, none of Mystara's cutural analogues attempts to recreate all of a people's history exactly as on Earth. In most instances, the practical application of RW culture seems to be primarily superficial and, perhaps, even stereotypical. Take, for instance, Renardy and New Averoigne/Morlay-Malinbois, the analogues for French culture: the inhabitants speak English with a fake French accent, they drink wine or champagne, and they are more likely than other cultures to wear berets. OK, that might not be entirely accurate nor the complete sum of French to Mystaran parallels, but it illustrates the idea that these analogues are largely based on applying certain stereotypes to Mystaran cultures, rather than creating full-fledged comparable cultures and histories.
What aspects of Judaism do you most want to replicate? If you want Mystaran Jews who are persecuted by the Spanish Inquisition, Narvaez is certainly the best possible setting. If you want a Mystaran Zionist movement, then perhaps Alfheim/Aengmor, Krakatos, Bellissaria, or somewhere along the Hulean border would be the best choice. If you want a codified monotheism, I think the Shadow Elves are the best analogue. If you want a Babylonian captivity, Alphatia, Thyatis or Hule could serve as a passable analogue for Babylon. If you want to focus on the Diaspora, scattered elven elements in Alfheim, Darokin, Thyatis, Karameikos, Wendar, Glantri, the Savage Coast, and Graakhalia are a good parallel. If you want a culture persecuted by Mystaran quasi-Nazis, you can use just about anyone with whom the Heldannic Knights have had contact.
i think it is best to drop the search for a Jewish Mystara land.
However, none of Mystara's cutural analogues attempts to recreate all of a people's history exactly as on Earth. In most instances, the practical application of RW culture seems to be primarily superficial and, perhaps, even stereotypical. Take, for instance, Renardy and New Averoigne/Morlay-Malinbois, the analogues for French culture: the inhabitants speak English with a fake French accent, they drink wine or champagne, and they are more likely than other cultures to wear berets. OK, that might not be entirely accurate nor the complete sum of French to Mystaran parallels, but it illustrates the idea that these analogues are largely based on applying certain stereotypes to Mystaran cultures, rather than creating full-fledged comparable cultures and histories.
I agree entirely. In most cases, we really are dealing with very superficial, stereotypical applications of real world cultures. I don't know how much of this was due to Bruce Heard's sense of humour, but it seems he had a rather large effect on things form an early stage. The idea seems to be to create familiarity in different cultures through real world stereotypes. Hence we have the French Glantrians, Scottish Glantrians, the Asterix-inspired Robrenn, English Bellayne, Australian Wallara, etc.
Sometimes the cultures are more deeply related, but the stereotypes remain the most important links, because they allow players to easily get an impression of "foreign culture" within the game, without trundling them through lots of boring exposition.
On the subject of political correctness, I would have to admit to being rather anti-PC. I'd rather not offend anyone either, but I prefer to apply that principle in a more universal way by simply being civil and respectful of other cultures, rather than thinking of specific cases and being ultra-careful.
I do understand the point about switching races, but there is certainly precedence for it: Japanese and English rakasta, French lupins, Australian Wallara, etc.
In any case, I'm not sure what there is to be gained by adding Jewish elements onto the existing gnomish culture. Due to the quirky nature of gnomes, it might be difficult, or conflict somewhat, although there are probably existing similarities in gnomish history, considering their history of persecution in the Known World. It might be best just to leave things as they are, or at most to use a Jewish influence to expand the history of the gnomes - if the current history does indeed bear any resemblance, that is.
I agree entirely. In most cases, we really are dealing with very superficial, stereotypical applications of real world cultures. I don't know how much of this was due to Bruce Heard's sense of humour, but it seems he had a rather large effect on things form an early stage. The idea seems to be to create familiarity in different cultures through real world stereotypes. Hence we have the French Glantrians, Scottish Glantrians, the Asterix-inspired Robrenn, English Bellayne, Australian Wallara, etc.
It actually precedes Bruce Heard, going back to X1: Isle of Dread by Tom Moldvay and David Cook, who presented the Known World nations with a series of rough "real world" analogues. The extent to which this was meant to be taken is not entirely clear, so Gaz3 (and Bruce's treatment) were possibly simply more extreme examples of the mold established by Moldvay and Cook.
It actually precedes Bruce Heard, going back to X1: Isle of Dread by Tom Moldvay and David Cook, who presented the Known World nations with a series of rough "real world" analogues. The extent to which this was meant to be taken is not entirely clear, so Gaz3 (and Bruce's treatment) were possibly simply more extreme examples of the mold established by Moldvay and Cook.
Maybe I wasn't quite clear, but I was meaning the adoption of stereotypes rather than the whole idea of basing Mystaran nations on real world cultures. X1 of course started that, but as you said, the outlines were so short that they didn't really include any details of how the cultures would be detailed. That only started a lot later, with the later modules and then the Gazetteer series.
Bruce Heard seems to be the person behind the cultures that use the most undisguised real world stereotypes to shape their characters. This stereotyping is what I was referring to, because it seems very relevant to the current discussion here about political correctness.
Maybe I wasn't quite clear, but I was meaning the adoption of stereotypes rather than the whole idea of basing Mystaran nations on real world cultures.
I wonder if Tom Moldvay, David Cook, and/or Bruce Heard had been influenced at all by Robert E. Howard's Hyborian Age; the setting for his Conan stories? It is also heavily based on RW cultures with some fantasy mixed in. Of course, this setting is said to be Earth, circa 8000 BC.
Although, when you look at the global map of Mystara, you can certainly see the continental similarities to Earth and how they could shift into those positions. I wonder if TSR ever had it in the back of their minds that Mystara was supposed to be Earth before recorded history? Hmmm...
As for the Jewish culture discussion, I think the Shadow Elves have an element of that (a small element that may just be coincidence), but I liked the Master of Hule / oppressed population suggestion as a possible fit. An 'Exodus' campaign could have some interesting promise to it.
Bruce Heard seems to be the person behind the cultures that use the most undisguised real world stereotypes to shape their characters. This stereotyping is what I was referring to, because it seems very relevant to the current discussion here about political correctness.
Oh- Gotcha. Misunderstood.
Along those lines, then, there was some discussion earlier in this thread about stereotypes and the races, and concern over using non-human races to represent other cultures. IIRC, there is precedent for using non-human races to represent RW human cultures- the Kogolor dwarves, for instance, are very similar to the Swiss in many ways; the Krugel orcs seem very Pampas-Gaucho like; the gnomes of Oostdok (as presented by Bruce) seem to have a Swiss-banker feel to them (in the vein of your undisguised stereotype point).