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Time scale

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
iam_bkee
Aug 22, 2005 17:20:00 the thing that kills my conversion efforts is time: 6 second round or 1 minute round. i can use squares instead of hexes, accelaration instead of ships rating, helms that do or don't drain spell energy, throw out the entire concept of crystal shells and simply have portals to the Plane of Phlogiston because it's easier to navigate than astral plane travel, convert hull points and old AC to hit points, hardness, and new AC, and deal with the money the PCs could possibly get out of captured ships (selling helms etc), but what ship combat really comes down to how many times casters can cast fireball after an approaching ship is in range.

i want everything to function on the 2E time and scale until the ships make contact by boarding, ramming, or passing. then go into 3E time, where there are 10 rounds of close quarter action before any other ship could move into the area.

what i think i am going to do, is add resistance to incomming magic to the air envelope. what i'm not sure about is, if it's going to be spell resistance, requiring a penatration roll by the attacker, an automatic dispell check (maybe by the helmsman), or just plain immune, spells don't come in, until the envelopes open on contact.

also in my writeup, gravity and air are the direct result of the helm's power. the gravity plane reaches out from the floor where the helm is attached (and can be warped as the scorpion ship). helms are psionic or arcane (though either could be powered through various measures such as lifejammers for example), but divine magic cannot be used to power a ship. sorry, i think the idea of divine power fueling a helm is lame. and psionics are different, so a psionic detect doen't reveal magic, etc.

so the problem arises, if a ship has a psionic helm, how are they protected from incoming magic?
#2
nightdruid
Aug 22, 2005 17:44:12 What we did in Hackjammer (Hackmaster has the exact same problem) was to keep 1-minute rounds while ships were beyond the maximum range of spells & bows. Once that distance is closed, switch to a 6-second round as ships trade missile-fire & spells, and eventually to when boarding actions begin.
#3
zombiegleemax
Aug 23, 2005 3:13:08 I ships in my campaign only come out of 'cruising speed' of 100 million miles a day when they come within 2000 feet of an object of Awesome size or less (or come within the specified distance of a planetary surface, typically 40,000 feet).
With a scale of 40 feet per hex, that is 50 hexes ... an no siege weapon in my campaign exceeds that kind of range.
I have designed ship counters to 40 feet per inch scale when running an adventure. This has made it easy when running combat at 6 second rounds. The only problem is the amount of space for the maps ... 50 inches of map space ... my table top not quite that big LOL. When ranges are much greater then 20 hexes i use another smaller map where hexes are not 1" across, but more like ½ inch across or less and move a smaller counters (for the smaller hex maps i use maps from Star Frontiers box set).

Large 1" hex map is called "Tactical Map" as most battles will occur with in the 20 hexes of each other
Small ½" hex maps are called "Encounter Maps" ... this is where ships or critters decide to engage one another or try to escape.

On a seperate table is located the ship(s) map at 1" per square (blowing up the ships to this scale takes alot of paper!)
#4
iam_bkee
Aug 24, 2005 14:41:18 I considered the very same thing. I call it "zooming in", and I consider it way too complex for "casual" DnD. Even if it wasn't, archers and fireball become way too powerfull. I mean, yes, spellcasters and ranged fighters should have the initial advantage, but it should be no more significant than in any other setting.
#5
zombiegleemax
Aug 25, 2005 1:08:17 I would have to agree that Fireball is a killer spell against low level crew members, then again they are killer in any 'war' ... even in groundling campaigns.
#6
nightdruid
Aug 25, 2005 6:51:45
I considered the very same thing. I call it "zooming in", and I consider it way too complex for "casual" DnD. Even if it wasn't, archers and fireball become way too powerfull. I mean, yes, spellcasters and ranged fighters should have the initial advantage, but it should be no more significant than in any other setting.

If you're interested in "casual" SJ, then what you should probably due is this: ditch ship weapons completely. All the problems revolving around time scale are because ship weapons have reload times in minutes. Ditch them, and your problems are gone. Go to 6-second rounds, and round the scale down such that two ships "appear" at a distance about double average spell-range, and move forward in such a speed to close the distance after a few rounds (prep-time to power-up spells).
#7
iam_bkee
Aug 25, 2005 20:22:24 in a ground war, troops can spread out to mitigate the effect of a fireball.

ship to ship combat is the difference between Spelljammer and Planescape.
#8
zombiegleemax
Aug 26, 2005 1:15:39 One tactic my players have used to protect lower level crew members is to have alot of crew members below deck out of effect of fireball. Players have also used fireball 'bunkers' ... sort of a box that one hides in (as long as the box has hit points and fully closed, crew takes no damage from incoming fireballs.

players also have taken time to enchant rings or other items to help against such nasty spells for thier crew (those crew members that have to be in the open).
#9
zombiegleemax
Aug 26, 2005 1:21:25 Another solution to fireball spell is 'counterspell' option from the Player's Handbook (page 170) ... if there is a will thier is a way.
#10
nightdruid
Aug 26, 2005 6:29:00 Actually, its the "gas" or "cloud" spells that can be complete murder. Cloudkill is a ship-killer, no doubt. May not kill PCs, but it will certainly drop sailors and marines fast enough. Nice big area of effect, and since the ship is a contained bubble of air, no place for it to go, so any survivors will be stuck in a few high places. Or if you're really high level, incendary cloud. Even stinking cloud can be pretty danged dangerous.

The only real "counter" to this is having crewmen of fairly high level, at least 4th level and preferrably at least 6th. That gives them the levels to avoid the nastiest effects of certain spells, and HP enough that a single Magic Missile isn't going to drop them, and even enough HP to have a reasonable chance of taking a fireball hit.
#11
zombiegleemax
Aug 26, 2005 12:31:59 In the few campaigns i have ran, crew members either level in a NPC class quickly or they dog meat.
Typically after a few adventures, NPCs on board ship tended to be around 4th to 6th level while PCs where up to 8th+
NPC's classes like expert, commoner and warrior keeps such npcs survivable but never overshadow the PCs.
Some DMs might balk at idea of npc's with more then 1 to 3 levels.
#12
iam_bkee
Sep 09, 2005 12:18:12 to solve my problem with AoEs and magic vs psionic, i'm going to add a trait to the helm that prevents casters ot psions from targeting the ship or areas within the envelope. concentration DC 40 to overcome or loos the spell or psi points. you can still target individuals with spells, but it only affects the individual.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 iam_bkee Aug 22, 2005 17:20:00	the thing that kills my conversion efforts is time: 6 second round or 1 minute round. i can use squares instead of hexes, accelaration instead of ships rating, helms that do or don't drain spell energy, throw out the entire concept of crystal shells and simply have portals to the Plane of Phlogiston because it's easier to navigate than astral plane travel, convert hull points and old AC to hit points, hardness, and new AC, and deal with the money the PCs could possibly get out of captured ships (selling helms etc), but what ship combat really comes down to how many times casters can cast fireball after an approaching ship is in range. i want everything to function on the 2E time and scale until the ships make contact by boarding, ramming, or passing. then go into 3E time, where there are 10 rounds of close quarter action before any other ship could move into the area. what i think i am going to do, is add resistance to incomming magic to the air envelope. what i'm not sure about is, if it's going to be spell resistance, requiring a penatration roll by the attacker, an automatic dispell check (maybe by the helmsman), or just plain immune, spells don't come in, until the envelopes open on contact. also in my writeup, gravity and air are the direct result of the helm's power. the gravity plane reaches out from the floor where the helm is attached (and can be warped as the scorpion ship). helms are psionic or arcane (though either could be powered through various measures such as lifejammers for example), but divine magic cannot be used to power a ship. sorry, i think the idea of divine power fueling a helm is lame. and psionics are different, so a psionic detect doen't reveal magic, etc. so the problem arises, if a ship has a psionic helm, how are they protected from incoming magic?
#2 nightdruid Aug 22, 2005 17:44:12	What we did in Hackjammer (Hackmaster has the exact same problem) was to keep 1-minute rounds while ships were beyond the maximum range of spells & bows. Once that distance is closed, switch to a 6-second round as ships trade missile-fire & spells, and eventually to when boarding actions begin.
#3 zombiegleemax Aug 23, 2005 3:13:08	I ships in my campaign only come out of 'cruising speed' of 100 million miles a day when they come within 2000 feet of an object of Awesome size or less (or come within the specified distance of a planetary surface, typically 40,000 feet). With a scale of 40 feet per hex, that is 50 hexes ... an no siege weapon in my campaign exceeds that kind of range. I have designed ship counters to 40 feet per inch scale when running an adventure. This has made it easy when running combat at 6 second rounds. The only problem is the amount of space for the maps ... 50 inches of map space ... my table top not quite that big LOL. When ranges are much greater then 20 hexes i use another smaller map where hexes are not 1" across, but more like ½ inch across or less and move a smaller counters (for the smaller hex maps i use maps from Star Frontiers box set). Large 1" hex map is called "Tactical Map" as most battles will occur with in the 20 hexes of each other Small ½" hex maps are called "Encounter Maps" ... this is where ships or critters decide to engage one another or try to escape. On a seperate table is located the ship(s) map at 1" per square (blowing up the ships to this scale takes alot of paper!)
#4 iam_bkee Aug 24, 2005 14:41:18	I considered the very same thing. I call it "zooming in", and I consider it way too complex for "casual" DnD. Even if it wasn't, archers and fireball become way too powerfull. I mean, yes, spellcasters and ranged fighters should have the initial advantage, but it should be no more significant than in any other setting.
#5 zombiegleemax Aug 25, 2005 1:08:17	I would have to agree that Fireball is a killer spell against low level crew members, then again they are killer in any 'war' ... even in groundling campaigns.
#6 nightdruid Aug 25, 2005 6:51:45	I considered the very same thing. I call it "zooming in", and I consider it way too complex for "casual" DnD. Even if it wasn't, archers and fireball become way too powerfull. I mean, yes, spellcasters and ranged fighters should have the initial advantage, but it should be no more significant than in any other setting. If you're interested in "casual" SJ, then what you should probably due is this: ditch ship weapons completely. All the problems revolving around time scale are because ship weapons have reload times in minutes. Ditch them, and your problems are gone. Go to 6-second rounds, and round the scale down such that two ships "appear" at a distance about double average spell-range, and move forward in such a speed to close the distance after a few rounds (prep-time to power-up spells).
#7 iam_bkee Aug 25, 2005 20:22:24	in a ground war, troops can spread out to mitigate the effect of a fireball. ship to ship combat is the difference between Spelljammer and Planescape.
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 26, 2005 1:15:39	One tactic my players have used to protect lower level crew members is to have alot of crew members below deck out of effect of fireball. Players have also used fireball 'bunkers' ... sort of a box that one hides in (as long as the box has hit points and fully closed, crew takes no damage from incoming fireballs. players also have taken time to enchant rings or other items to help against such nasty spells for thier crew (those crew members that have to be in the open).
#9 zombiegleemax Aug 26, 2005 1:21:25	Another solution to fireball spell is 'counterspell' option from the Player's Handbook (page 170) ... if there is a will thier is a way.
#10 nightdruid Aug 26, 2005 6:29:00	Actually, its the "gas" or "cloud" spells that can be complete murder. Cloudkill is a ship-killer, no doubt. May not kill PCs, but it will certainly drop sailors and marines fast enough. Nice big area of effect, and since the ship is a contained bubble of air, no place for it to go, so any survivors will be stuck in a few high places. Or if you're really high level, incendary cloud. Even stinking cloud can be pretty danged dangerous. The only real "counter" to this is having crewmen of fairly high level, at least 4th level and preferrably at least 6th. That gives them the levels to avoid the nastiest effects of certain spells, and HP enough that a single Magic Missile isn't going to drop them, and even enough HP to have a reasonable chance of taking a fireball hit.
#11 zombiegleemax Aug 26, 2005 12:31:59	In the few campaigns i have ran, crew members either level in a NPC class quickly or they dog meat. Typically after a few adventures, NPCs on board ship tended to be around 4th to 6th level while PCs where up to 8th+ NPC's classes like expert, commoner and warrior keeps such npcs survivable but never overshadow the PCs. Some DMs might balk at idea of npc's with more then 1 to 3 levels.
#12 iam_bkee Sep 09, 2005 12:18:12	to solve my problem with AoEs and magic vs psionic, i'm going to add a trait to the helm that prevents casters ot psions from targeting the ship or areas within the envelope. concentration DC 40 to overcome or loos the spell or psi points. you can still target individuals with spells, but it only affects the individual.