1. is the grey the replacement for the astral plane in DS or are they seperate ?
2. is the black linked in any way to the plane of shadows?
3. is the hollow in the black or in the grey ?
4. the black is in the grey correct ?
5. did rajaat create either the black or the hollow ?
that is really all i have for now , i know this is probably somewhere in the book i just read but i want to see what you guys hold as canonical here
Just read the RaFoaSK and had a few questions
1. is the grey the replacement for the astral plane in DS or are they seperate ?
Seperate.
2. is the black linked in any way to the plane of shadows?
Its the replacement for the Plane of Shadows.
3. is the hollow in the black or in the grey ?
Neither. Metaphorically, the Hollow is decribed as "below" or "behind" the Black, both of which terms have little value when it comes to planar metaphysics. The Hollow is coterminus with the Black.
4. the black is in the grey correct ?
Nope. That's one of Miss Abby's screw ups.
5. did rajaat create either the black or the hollow ?
No and no. Although it is debatable whether the Champions created the Hollow or simply accessed it.
For more info, look at the begining of Terrors of the Deads Lands here
AFAIK, Abbey had it right.
, but I don't remember where.There's Athas, then the Gray, then the Black, then the Hollow.
AFAIK, Abbey had it right.
Abbey had it that the Champions did not travel in the Black, instead using the Gray, because in the Black they could fall prey to Rajaat's minions in that dimension, the shadow giants.
Besides, at one point Hamanu wants to make sure for himself if the Hollow is still containing Rajaat and crafts an epic spell of concealment, which he then uses while making a pass near Rajaat's prison, from the Black. So the Hollow can be seen from the Black, and any way in the Prism Pentad Rajaat can be seen talking to his shadow giants from his prison.
The Githyanki queen somehow created a link to the astral plane.
It is my understanding the astral plane does not "officially" connect to DS. Did the module authors take liberties with the comsmology?
With 3rd Edition, and the death of multiversal branding as a company perogative, we have the much saner ability to declare worlds and such to be seperate entities, unconnected from one another, where it fits the particular world.
So, yes, the whole "Astral Invasion" thing was tacked on somewhat -- though it wasn't necessarily a liberty being taken -- since DS was created right before the multiversal perogative, but then ended up living most of its life cycle inside it and subject to it (and whatever alterations became necessary for it to toe the company product line).
The writers were thus stuck trying to shoehorn Athas into the multiversal mold, much to the detriment of the line, I would argue.
For a good idea on retroactively modifying Black Spines, take a ganter from the Eberron Campaing Setting: githyanki in that setting are creations from the inhabitants of one of the 13 planes that orbit Eberron. Long ago a people came on Eberron and modified humans or elves (can't recall), making them gith: half were githyanki, the other githzerai, each subspecies serving a particular role for their masters. They rebelled and took to living in the astral plane.
So in the end, the gith of Eberron are just like those of other worlds, but their background story is very different and they ultimately belong to the setting and do not come from outside of it.
For a good idea on retroactively modifying Black Spines, take a ganter from the Eberron Campaing Setting: githyanki in that setting are creations from the inhabitants of one of the 13 planes that orbit Eberron. Long ago a people came on Eberron and modified humans or elves (can't recall), making them gith: half were githyanki, the other githzerai, each subspecies serving a particular role for their masters. They rebelled and took to living in the astral plane.
An almost perfect parallel can be drawn in Dark Sun using Rhulisti life-shapers (or life-benders, if you prefer) as the people who modified the original species, although that leaves the original somehwat open to debate.
...
Hmm, here's a thought: how about the Gith and the Kreen are both genetic byproducts of life-shaping conducted on... something. Some sort of common ancestor species. Have to horseshoe that out a bit but it could lead to something interesting.
Of course this idea is just an eentsy tad (;)) off canon so I doubt many will go for it. Still, I like it.
They could have been psionic masters of the Green Age that decided to leave Athas during or before the Cleansing Wars and with their followers they escaped into the Black Using their psionic powers they created a pocket of space on the boarders of the Grey and Black simular to the Hollow. Now living there for the last several thousand years has changed them into what they are today. This is simular to the City of Shade in FR. The demons or devils that are in the Black Spines adventure could have been natives of the Grey or Black.
One problem with cutting Athas off from the rest of the multivers is the Planar Gate and Dregoths travels to other worlds to learn about the gods. It could be the the Grey and Black surround Athas and only through the use of huge epic powers or powerful artifacts can one breach the layers of the G & B to travel to other planes- making it nearly impossible for most on Athas- this also allows for there to be the inner planes (elemental ones I believe are the inner) that are not diectly attached to Athas- only connected throught the conducts or whatever it is that allows the clerics to draw their power.
Now I do not have my books in front of me and so my references may be off or not properly naming the right item so please do not set out to correct my terms or useage of some items- just throwing out some thoughts. :D
Gods - Athasian gods - would be present in those pocket dimensions or shadow mirages, but could not come out of their respective realms, and their influence limited to those regions.
If they are present in the shadow mirages of the Black, then its easy to say that the only way to access the Black's shadow mirages is through the Planar Gate, a tool that allows you to see and explore the infinite possibilities of existence, as expressed in the deepest regions of the Black.
Outsiders - demons and devils - would come from those regions, and thus could come across to our reality by steping through the Planar Gate.
According to PS cannon, the prime material sphere that contains Athas is seperated from the planar cosmology by the Grey and the Black as mentioned before by other posters.
Not mentioned by others is that in PS the only way to effectively reach DS without the use of major magic and or psionics was via Elemental Vortices. As Athas has some rather serious elemental situations it was said to have no portals and quite a few vortices, utilizing the vortices would require someone to travel from the outer planes, through the etheral, into the inner planes, where they would have to survive long enough to find a vortice that was connected to the Prime Sphere of Athas. Going was one thing returning is a wholly different matter. The elemental vortices of the Athasian Prime Sphere could only be opened via an epic spell requiring access to a nearly pure form of the element in question. So only the most powerful of Athasian priests could managa such a return opening. Not to mention that in Athas, as far as pure Elements go we have the Silt Sea (silt), A couple large active volcanoes (magma), the last sea (water), and high sun atop a mountain (sun-which coincidentilly was related to the Positive energy plane in PS; good luck living on that one), as well as a few other hard to reach elementally pure locales. Now as the black was used in replacement of the Plane of Shadow it could be argued that one was the equal of the other and that the Black should have access to the etheral, myself I fancied it as a sub plane of the plane of shadow meaning one would have to survive the creatures of the black, utilize a spell to access shadow, survive the creatures of shadow, then the etheral and finally the outer.
As you can see Darksun was not an easy apple to reach from the planes and getting home from Athas is the epitome of a nightmare for a plane hopping party. (Provided they survive Athas itself long enough to find a priest crazy enough to try)
Anyway I am sure that I was more a hindrance than a help here, but I figured I would lay it out from a planars p.o.v.
This reply comes from the perspective of a Planescape nut, myself. My two favortie settings were PS and DS as far as TSR worlds went.
Anyway I am sure that I was more a hindrance than a help here, but I figured I would lay it out from a planars p.o.v.
Not true, some very useful information darkenstarr. Glad to see a fellow DS/PS junkie. :D
Not true, some very useful information darkenstarr. Glad to see a fellow DS/PS junkie. :D
/fingers in ears
La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la...
I also liked the ideas on the black floating around.. I always thought of the black and the gray as new or quasi elemental in a way.. but not made out of earth air fire or water obviously.. they represent other things... the gray represented the spiritual energy of athas.. the residual life energy attatched to a soul upon departer.. slowly over centuries a soul is disolved into energy that is absorbed by the elemental and paraelemental planes and used as the foundation of the energy for elemental magics... (so its still life energy based.. but of a recycled or naturally occuring in nature type form) and the black?? that I was still working on.. though to me it seemed the representation of athas... but imagin taking an image cell.. and flipping the image so light is dark and dark is light... well.. athas is the light side.. the black is its dark side.. a sort equal counterpart.. in my campaigns.. the black is a sort of shadow realm.. like...a dead zone.. made up of what was, was isn't, and all the other things that go bump in the night.. but mostly a feeling of emptiness and age rather than so much a concept of light or dark... like an echo of athas.. and what is no more.. like the darkest shadow being cast off athas itself in all its variations... and as such.. full of great power and endless possibility..
but I digress.. I just got caught up in the moment.. I agree with the idea that only some seriously epic powers or artifacts can allow proper plane hopping on Athas..