(Warning: Extreme weirdness follows, on a level that may cause excessive brain cramps. Do not read if under the influence of anything stronger than caffeine, and maybe not even then. :D )
-- Immortal Perceptions:
The universe is broader than any mortal can hope to perceive. Hidden order and the workings of distant actors predetermine many events that would otherwise seem to come about by chance; unexpected intrusions and the fluctuations of underlying chaos disrupt other things that might seem to be certain.
The Immortals see more than the lesser beings of the multiverse, but even their vision is not absolute. Each Sphere has one realm of perception unique to its own members, a limited window on omniscience and a realization of all the dangers and opportunities that interweave the multiverse. It's these clashes of perception and the resulting disagreements on how to take action that cause much of the strife between Immortals.
Immortals of Matter perceive life in all its forms - not simply the organic mortal creatures which predominate in normal perception, but also beings of silicon, hydrogen- or methane-based metabolisms, and other sorts. Aggregates of elemental matter can be recognized and in some sense understood by Matter immortals, as can micro-scale lifeforms such as viruses or hivemind bacterial colonies and macro-scale beings such as megaliths and self-aware stars.
The Immortals of Matter are uniquely capable of adjusting to different scales, taking into account any being's need to survive and reproduce, and anticipating how the multiverse may change as a result. They can also perceive those truly weird lifeforms that may not be apparent to any other being, but nontheless pose a notable threat if not stopped.
Immortals of Energy are in tune with the forces of magic - and again, not just the established paradigm of a few, highly-skilled individuals channeling Immortal energies or tapping latent arcane power, but all the other possibilities that are mostly suppressed in the current state of the multiverse. Magic as raw life energy, needing living sacrifice in order to work; magic as the more-or-less focused belief of sapient mortals; magic as wild thing, ur-Chaos only vaguely tamed (or not even that, simply hurriedly turned loose at whatever you want eradicated this week); magic as expressed in cleverly-crafted devices, obeying strict laws puzzled out by centuries of rigorous experimentation; all these and more are the purview of the Sphere of Energy.
Energy Immortals know how these different types of magic work, should they be unleashed; they know the 'weak' points in the fabric of the universe where the rules are likely to shift, and can make a good guess as to the consequences. They're uniquely suited to contain any possible damage when it occurs - or take advantage of it to further their own plots.
Immortals of Time see the timestream of the multiverse - the past in all its permutations, the possible paths of the future, and the convergence between the two labeled as 'present'. They're aware, where others aren't, that the past is neither fixed nor even uniform, but often made of patchwork pieces of desired bits of past possibility - a king's death here, a hero's success there, unachievable in the same timeline but made to fit in actual history to fit some cosmic watchmaker's ideal. Similarly, the future is uncharted to an extent where mere 'impossibility' takes on a whole new meaning, and anything can be emplaced if one goes far enough afield.
Immortals of Thought possibly have the oddest expanded viewpoint of all. For them, the very nature of thought itself is a visible, dynamic thing - all the way from odd notions as the metaphysical equivalent of mayflies, rising through the great tasks and life's work of individuals, culminating perhaps with religious creeds and the laws of empires as metacreation's mightiest beasts. Civilizations and cultures act as ecosystems for thought, and the interaction of memes and interplay of ideas is as real and palpable as a duel of wizardry or clash of armies. Genius, insanity, valor and cowardice, honor and sacrifice, greed and pride and willful ignorance all shape thought like weather upon an open sea.
The oddness of this take on the multiverse is, of course, that the observer is inevitably part of the mileau. Immortals of Thought are uniquely aware that they are absolutely not the apex of creation, perceiving as they do the higher-level awareness that spawns from the interaction of their kind. What's more, the very act of observing this fact changes the Immortal meme ever so subtly, to the point where individualism and free will itself comes into question. Even for those other Immortals who are broad-minded enough to accept the nature of each Sphere's unique perceptions, the motives of Thought are often infathomable.
The Immortals of Entropy have a unique advantage on all their compatriots - they can perceive, dimly, the alternate possibilities envisioned by their peers, but only to the extent of encouraging decay, corruption and destruction. An Immortal of Entropy can successfully uncover a way to kill a strange lifeform, but cannot help it grow and prosper in its natural space. Likewise, they can turn loose wild magics to cause strife and conflict in normal space, but cannot foster coexistence. Exploitation of timelines is limited to increasing devastation; adjusting thought, to encouraging dissent, uncertainty and incipient madness. This warped perception often seems to extend itself to normal vision and acts as well, encouraging the spread of destruction and ultimate doom - not that many Immortals of Entropy need any such encouragement, of course.
These majestic descriptions can be used to make the whole Immortal power struggle a little more real, and a lot more profound. Very impressive!
First among the Entropic Spheres is that of Stasis, which seeks to entrap all things, snuffing out energy and ending motion, change and growth. While Stasis can prevent death and so is sometimes seen as beneficial, it also blocks healing, new discovery and activity, and can suffocate new life before it arrives. Stasis is most closely aligned with the alignment of Law, though in a definitely dark fashion; it prevents the spread of Negation, is torn asunder by Ravening, and seeks to freeze the conflicts created by Discord.
The Sphere of Ravening, meanwhile, is an engine of destruction, seeking to consume and break down all it comes across, eliminating any semblance of definition, uniqueness or distinctiveness. Anything in Ravening's path is left not annihilated, but thrown into ultimate disorder and disunity - even the very structure of space and time is disassociated, leaving behind ultimate chaos. Ravening prevents the establishment of Stasis, is redirected by Discord, and seeks to lay waste to existence before Negation can eliminate it.
Next is the Sphere of Discord, which seeks to poison thought, words, ideas, relationships and philosophies. Conflict, dissent, distrust, lies and hatred are all Discord's tools, though the ambition and envy it fosters can sometimes be turned towards beneficial ends. Discord spreads concepts and strife before Ravening can consume their creators, is rendered meaningless by the spread of Negation, and works to foster conflicts that cause Stasis to crumble. As the most ambivalent of the Entropic Spheres, Discord is arguably Neutral in alignment.
Finally is the Sphere of Negation, what many would see as the classical 'goal' of Entropy - the destruction of existence and that which defines it. That which has been touched by Negation is no longer matter - not antimatter, which is matter according to different rules, nor empty space, for such is defined by the absence of matter and could once again be filled by matter, but nothingness, an absolute refutation of being. Even for the Entropic spheres, Negation is seen as evil. It eliminates sources of Discord, is blocked in its advance by Stasis, and works to eliminate the space that Ravening tears asunder.
The final Sphere, that of Life, seeks to encourage growth, health, the continuation of old things and the creation of new ones. Many right-thinking Immortals consider its ways dangerously radical, opposing the proper elimination of things unfit to face the natural order and potentially filling the entire multiverse with stifling, hungry life. Fragments of history and prophecy suggest that Life has four separate aspects which mirror the four Entropic Spheres, and that at some time in the distant future may be in the ascendant and exist as separate focuses of Immortal power. No Immortal currently in existance can say whether these rumors have any truth.
Kudos to you on this.
The War was fought without quarter, raging across eternity and leaving the Immortals themselves as lifeless husks on the many battlefields. Who the enemy is, no one dares say. Some blame the dread Outer Beings, now exiled to their voiceless prisons. Others claim the War to have been a conflict within the Immortals themselves, the only time that the conflicts between the Spheres flared into full fury, and a caution against any such repition. Still others fear the involvement of dragons and the alien Draeden, or other beings even more secretive and mysterious. The truth may never be known.
Whatever the cause of the War, its legacy is clear and terrible. First was the near-total destruction of Immortal society and history. In a cosmos in which the mightiest beings can literally live forever and comprehend unbelievable levels of information and detail, recorded history is but a few millenia old as mortals measure time, with all prior to this being lost.
Those Immortals alive today are aware that the universe is many times older than their own knowledge, and that their predecessors once had skill and insights that dwarf their own. Of the accumulated learning that existed before the War, however, only incomprehensible fragments remain, a handful of pieces in a puzzle uncountably vast. Acquiring and deciphering clues relating to the wisdom of the old order of Immortals is a top priority of many modern Hierarchs.
Such a task is not easy, however, for the Outer Planes - home to the Immortals and their civilization - are also inhabited by many dangerous monsters who still hunt the Immortals and seek to hinder their works, tens of thousands of years later. These beings are dangerous, even to an Immortal in full fury. Many have attacks or magic that work best against an Immortal opponent; others are attracted specifically to the presence of Immortal power, crossing even the boundaries of the planes and dimensions to strike at their ancient foes. (The existence of these beings is believed to be an even greater reason for the Prohibition against Immortal meddling on the Prime - for an Immortal to act without reason on that plane is to invite some of these monsters to visit, a catastrophe of immeasurable proportion.)
Some broad classes of monster born from the War are as follows. Many variations on each type exist, of greater and lesser power.
- Asura: 'Hunters of Avatars', these beings can steal a fragment of Immortal power and identity, channelling it directly as a weapon or warping it to dominate or torture the Immortal. These beings are feared greatly by the Immortals, and destroyed whenever they manifest; fortunately, all known asura have been locked away in prison planes for centuries.
- Kharisiri: Monsters that can sense the presence of Immortals or use of Immortal magic, and strike at the target accordingly. Some travel directly to their victim and attack with surprise; others strike from afar, hounding an opponent that is unable to strike back; others seek to reshape the emanation of power to attack its creator.
- Oyasi: Beings that are immune to Immortal magic and Power attacks; they are assumed to have been the 'shock troopers' of the War, and can be very dangerous against an unprepared Immortal opponent.
- Kalengu: Creatures that feed on Immortal power, leeching it from their victims or using it to wrack at a target from within. Against Mortal creatures, these beings are near-helpless; even low-power Immortals have little to fear. Eternals and Hierarchs, however, must flee or quickly be overcome.
- Maereboe: 'Warpers of Reality', able to weaken the very fabric of existence or change the rules that govern matter, energy, time and thought. Comparatively weak when confronted directly, but deadly if allowed time to prepare a battlefield or trap that best suits their needs.
- Ialus: These monsters are slayers, assassins and negators, able to spread death at their whim and place even Immortals into eternal slumber. Each has a weakness that can be used to block its power or break those it has already cursed, but discovering such weaknesses is difficult for even Immortals, and may be near-impossible to acquire even when it's known.
Following are a few guidelines for allowing a group of heroic characters to cooperate on a single path towards Immortality. At the completion of the path, the characters will be joined together as a group of Immortal beings with a shared Immortal life force and power source, but retaining their own personalities and histories and cooperating to achieve greater Immortal power.
The Petition: A group of characters wanting to achieve joint Immortality must travel together to petition an Immortal sponsor. They must act in consensus on all major acts, functioning well as a team and avoiding internal dissent; their progress will be observed and the challenges to their virtues will be designed to encourage internal strife.
The following modifiers apply to Immortal Arrival:
What I did post for though was the idea about the War in Heaven. I might have mentioned that here, but I'm using an idea along that line myself where the older Immortals that don't remember becoming Immortal were raised by a supreme being that had been involved in the war in Heaven. This being still exists, unlike the older Immortals of that time, but it hides and can not be found by any means without it's own agreement to being found. It watches and waits for the other eon that is near like it, but completely opposite. This opposite is evil to the fullest. It is not as strong or powerful to the other, but it is still dangerous and it waits for the right time to strike again and make another war in heaven. I'm going to use this to make my current players Immortals if they choose when they reach high enough levels to truly make a difference. Maybe I will wait till they really are Immortals.
Maybe I'll use the group Immortal ideas for them.
Stasis, Ravening, Discord, Negation, and Life
I really like these, but I think the Sphere of Life should be an informal name (like "Sphere of Death" for Entropy). The main positive sphere should have a more grandiose sounding name - I like Vitality.
Also, I can't really picture a universe ruled by these Spheres (maybe that's inherant, though) - they're too much focussed on a single characteristic. "Discord" seems to be only a small part of Thought in general, for instance - it's not like it could exist in the absence of Thought.
On the other hand, it's interesting that the four original Spheres are mostly things - Matter, Energy, Thought - except for Entropy, which is a process. (Time is ambiguous, but you could see it as a thing too.) The Entropic Spheres you propose are all processes, like Entropy itself.
I find that intriguing, but nonethless, I'm gonna provide my own version of the four Entropic Spheres:
The opposite of Matter is Void. The Void is the space which supports and surrounds Matter. Without Void there could be no Matter, because there is no place for it to exist. It is the primeval darkness from which all else springs, and to which all else will return. The Void has no dominant alignment, but is associated with the element of Air (which has a similar role as an invisible and intangible which permeates the world) and the Thief class (which has an affinity for darkness and shadow). Void opposes Decay's attempts to fill it with debris, provides perspective to Madness, and is the purest expression of Stasis.
The opposite of Energy is Stasis. Stasis is the tendency of base matter to form rigid, unyielding patterns which persist until the end of time. It prevents both growth and death. It prevents both life and hope. Stasis is the cold and inexorable end of a universe whose Energy has run out. Stasis is associated with the alignment Law, the element of Earth (particularly crystals and other highly regular structures) and the Fighter class. Stasis opposes Madness's anarchy, forms the natural state of the Void at rest, and creates fertile patterns for Decay.
The opposite of Time is Decay. Decay is disorder, rust and ruin. It is the slow destruction of all that exists, not by negation but by conversion to a mockery of its former self. It is slow death, by age, disease and the wearing down of mountains, but it is also the most chaotic aspects of growth - tangled vines, roots which pull down castle walls, briars and thorns which rip and cut. Decay is associated with the alignment Chaos, the elemen of Fire (which converts fuel to ash and smoke) and the Magic-User class (whose spells often convert matter to more disordered energy). Decay opposes Void (the only sphere it cannot wear down) and disrupts Stasis.
The opposite of Thought is Madness. Madness is the inevitable result of thought which prizes emptiness, paralysis and degeneracy over matter, energy and growth. It is mind governed by emotion rather than reason, or it is cold logic leading to inhuman conclusions, or vast and potent intellect brought to bear only on trivialties. There are as many shades of madness as there are of sanity, so Madness is associated with the Neutral alignment, the element Water (which encompasses both violent storms and still pools with hidden depths), and the Cleric class (whose members give allegiance to many different faiths and philosophies). Madness opposes the sterility of Stasis and imposes its will on the process of Decay, but the limitless expanse of the Void provides a perspective that is hard to distort.
In an Entropy-dominated universe, Matter is seen as an inert tool - it's needed to give you a body and a place to stand, but compared to the limitless, majestic vastness of the Void, it is considered unworthy of attention. (A suggestion that such raw stuff as Matter could be beautiful or useful for its own sake would be regarded similarly to a slave revolt - base materials getting uppity.) The most necessary qualities of Matter - in resisting decay and providing a foundation for life - are provided instead by Stasis. Similarly, Energy certainly exists and is even useful for doing the work of other spheres, but it is regarded as an ugly excess which is to be methodically extinguished. The vital task of thwarting stasis and providing a spark for life are provided by Decay (which, like Energy, has both creative and destructive aspects). Time is seen as a mere progression of events, lacking both the purity of Stasis and the interesting forms which Decay can take. And the concept of ordered, rational Thought is incomprehensible - just as we see Madness as nothing but disordered Thought, an inhabitant of an Entropy-dominated Universe would see Thought as merely Madness which confines itself to a restricted domain which calls itself "sanity".
Note that it would be a much better parallel if the Sphere of Time were the Sphere of Growth, and maybe there are some nice scholarly tomes in Alphatia which argue that point. ("Time is in fact beyond the realm of the Immortals - it simply exists, and neither mortal nor Immortal magic can effect it. What we term the Immortals of Time are merely Immortals who have dedicated themselves to the process of change and growth, the closest concepts to Time which can still be affected by beings which must live in the multiverse.") There's a similar argument to be made with Thought/Madness, but I like the idea that the Spheres of Thought and Madness are both equally workable, but simply can't comprehend each other. I especially like the association of Clerics and Water with Madness - it's highly Cthulhoid.
Also, I got the elemental correspondences and such by shifting each sphere around the dominance wheel - Matter's opposite is Void, which has the same characteristics as Thought, the sphere that Matter dominates in the standard scheme, and so forth. This suggests that Life was able to take over from Death because its spheres evolved into a configuration where each was able to dominate its opposite from Entropy. This in turn suggests that the current Immortals of Entropy may not be arranged in the same way, and if they are to defeat the current ruling spheres they will have to arrange themselves into a new organization, such that Matter's opposite has the characteristics of the Sphere of Energy (Chaos, Fire, favours Mages); Energy's analogue has the characteristics of the Sphere of Time (Neutral, Water, favours Clerics); etc.
Void, Stasis, Decay, Madness and Vitality
* Nod nod *
I see these five concepts as running more or less in parallel with the ideas I posted - as you suggested, slow-acting and permanent states of existence rather than fast-acting processes. It seems likely that Entropics dedicated to Negation would end up in a 'new' sphere of Void, Discord to Madness, et cetera, "come the revolution".
I really like these, but I think the Sphere of Life should be an informal name (like "Sphere of Death" for Entropy). The main positive sphere should have a more grandiose sounding name - I like Vitality.
I like all the ideas posted so far! The Sphere of Vitality has potential. The Sphere of Integration has previously been suggested as the combined enemy of the entropic spheres. Sharon Dornhoff (whom many on here probably don't remember) actually suggested the Sphere of Stasis as the progenitor of the four spheres opposed to entropy ;)
Along these lines, David Knott's four paths to Immortality for entropics are fairly relevant: http://pandius.com/dknott.html
I'll put forward another proposed system--note that I am in no way criticizing the previous two layouts, just offering a third in the interest of promoting debate
The Sphere of Integration was once in opposition to the other four spheres and waged a ruthless war of subterfuge and seduction. Its goal was the construction of a new multiworld order opposed to the entropic principles espoused at the time. Integration sought to bring unity from Dissipation, to reverse the flow of Corruption, to embody the Essence of being, and to upend Stasis, bringing about an utter transformation of the world, to be maintained forevermore.
The Sphere of Stasis strove against Integration, seeking to foil its progress at every turn. Stasis was tied to the element of Earth, the solid, staid defender of the status quo. Stasis sought to prevent further dissipation, but it was undermined through the corrosive forces of Corruption. Stasis would have continued its dominance, had it not been betrayed...
The Sphere of Essence was tied to the element of Fire, the unpredictable, sensate, and powerful force of light, heat, sound, and rage. Essence believed that the true nature of all was energy, and sought to release this essence. As a tree, an oak is nothing more than celluse blocking the view, but burn it, and it gives off a sweet perfume; it gives warmth; and it gives heat: this is the Essence of oak. Essence sought to control the process of Corruption, but it was robbed of fuel by Dissipation. When discord and entropy was nearing its zenith, new ideas came forth in the Sphere of Essence: could greater essential force be harnessed through cooperation, through Integration? Thus began the long civil war of Essence, in which those who betrayed their sphere founded the new Sphere of Energy.
The Sphere of Dissipation was tied to the element of Air, the the distribution a dispersion of all. Dissipation fostered the division of brother from brother, being from being. Dissipation further sought to deny Essence, seeing uniqueness as antithetical to an underlying Essence. Dissipation was beaten back by Stasis's maintenance of order. As the war among the spheres intensified, some of the Immortals of Dissipation began to argue that the intrinsic uniqueness of all beings lay not in their isolation from one another, but in their own unique dreams and ideas. Integrating these dreams and ideas made it possible to achieve greater ideas than ever before. The traitors from Dissipation began deserting en masse, forming the new Sphere of Thought.
The Sphere of Corruption was tied to the element of Water, representing decay, erosion, evolution, change, and freedom from constraint. Corruption taught that all existence should be free, and that this freedom naturally brought betrayal, treachery, and self-seeking. The rules of the game were never meant to be kind, but the fittest survive and all is, by rights, theirs. Corruption constantly sapped the strength and will of Stasis, but it was both outdone and held in check by Essence.
Corruption was long an ally of Stasis, but it was a parasitic one, sapping the strength of Stasis at the same time it fought bravely against the forces of Integration. In truth, the Sphere of Corruption was so thoroughly enamored of betrayal that its own downfall, along with that of its allies, came from within. An unknown immortal of Corruption appeared ages ago: a seeming atavism, a whale-like being similar to a race that had died out millennia before. Secretly, the new immortal, named Protius, brought with him dangerous and revolutionary ideas from the distant future. Sowing discontent, Protius began to spread his seditious version of the future, implanting in immortals of the tides, the currents, and the oblivious embrace of the sea the notion that combined essences could strengthen one another: he demonstrated the dangerous idea of harmony. Perhaps most ultimately treacherous, he managed to seduce the Ruling Hierarch of Corruption with his radical ideas and vision of tomorrow: a vision in which change for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, was the one overriding constant of the world. This Ruling Hierarch, Verthandi, recognized the validity of Protius's vision and set to work on a number of time machines, vehicles of war to destroy the forces of Integration, he told his allies. When the time came, many of the immortals loyal to Stasis, Corruption, Essence, and Dissipation gleefully took these chariots of war, these artifacts that they were convinced would be the ultimate weapons to insure victory over Integration. They were, however, deceived. Each of the artifacts had some secret and terrible power: not only were the immortals hurtled forward in time to a new world where they had already been defeated, but they were also all diminished. In power, and, often, in stature, they re-entered the world as shadows of their former selves. Though the betrayal cut to the bone, they knew that they had no choice but to wait and to nurture the knowledge that, one day, the world might again be theirs.
Now, the natural question is what will be the new order when the world is again changed? Do we keep cycling between the same forces, or are there always new ideas out their waiting? Was Wrath of the Immortals a precursor to the coming splintering, when those born of pure energy recognize that such an existence is superior and the natural answer is to transmute all matter through magic, fire, or whatever other means necessary? Did Khoronous prophecy the coming end of an era? Or did he simply acknowledge and acquiesce to its initiation?
The goal of the Path of the Dominant is to establish personal superiority and increase the power and influence of one's own element. Whether a sponsor is needed is unclear - many elementals embarking on this path seek out a sponsoring Immortal to provide guidance and assistance, but some have reported that no sponsor is necessary - the necessary power for ascension coming from the elemental planes directly, or other unknown sources.
Like the four Paths taken by natives of the Prime, the Path of the Dominant has four key elements:
- Testimony: The candidate must acquire subordinate companions from each of the four Elemental planes, to assist him in his efforts. These companions may serve the candidate voluntarily, or be coerced through mundane or magical means, but must accept the candidate's authority. Each companion must gain a minimum of twelve levels or Hit Dice while in the candidate's service.
- Quest: The candidate must acquire an artifact that can be used to reshape elemental matter in large quantities, transforming foreign elemental matter into that of the candidate's native plane. Such artifacts are rare, difficult to acquire, dangerous to use, and generally feared by common elementals who see them as tools to promote unwelcome change and strife.
- Task and Trial: The character must use the acquired artifact to extend the influence of his element, gaining a significant victory over each of the other three Elemental planes. Each of these three campaigns will include battles against four Elemental Rulers, seeking to prevent the character's efforts; at least one will feature a confrontation against another elemental on the Path of the Dominant, only one of whom will emerge victorious and able to continue on the Path.
An elemental who succeeds in all these challenges gains Immortality in the Sphere that corresponds to his native element - Matter to Earth, Fire to Energy, Water to Time, Air to Thought. These new Immortals have the same powers and potential as Immortals from the Prime, but a very different viewpoint on life - often seeing things as a struggle between elements rather than ideologies, and seeing Entropy as a useful tool in this effort rather than a separate force that must be jointly opposed. Some of their personal abilities and talents may be different as well.
Thanatos's concern is Death. What Sphere should have dominion over this? Void, Stasis and Decay all have good claims: Death is the end result of Decay, and after death the body continues to decay; Death, unlike Life doesn't change; those who don't believe in an afterlife would argue that Death, like the Void, is the Big Nothing. I decided to make Thanatos the Reigning Heirarch of Void, just because it sounds awesome. (Also, I guess there's a parallel in the way all the life-giving nature deities are Immortals of Matter.)
Under this scheme, Decay is merely one process leading to death (hitting someone with a sword is not decay, it's just destruction), while Void is the Sphere controlling Death itself. What about Stasis? Stasis is a good candidate for the sphere controlling Undeath. Thus we get Nyx as a Heirarch (possibly the Reigning Heirarch?) of Stasis.
This gives some good insights into Nyx's character. Undeath is just like life, except life that never ages, decays or changes, barring external violence. It's life, but following the ways of the Sphere of Stasis. Someone mentioned the Nyx wanted to wait for the living to "mature" into undeath, rather than mass kill people and raise their corpses. This suggests a reason - Nyx actually likes life. She likes there to be living things that can talk to each other and think and move around - and she wishes they would be like that forever and never change. She can't just suddenly convert somebody from life to undeath: that's a sudden, violent change, and Stasis is opposed to change. If there must be change, it should at least be gradual.
Unfortunately, I also realized that there's no good sphere for purely destructive Immortals. Alphaks, due to his kinship with Fire and Magic-Users, should probably be in the Sphere of Decay, but people like Karaash who are mainly gods of battle have nowhere to go. Stasis favours the Fighter class, but that really makes no sense for a battle god - battle is inherantly chaotic and messy, the opposite of stasis, and if the god's followers kill each other to advance then their leadership is in constant flux. Void is too philosophical. Decay is possible if you view battle as a sudden, violent form of decay - which is possible, but not very satisfying. Madness works well for battle-lust, but is seems strange to have the most violent gods in the sphere favouring Clerics (or Magic-Users, come to think of it).
My system and eldersphinx's are pretty much parallel, so I've listed both (there are a couple of interesting places where this breaks down). I don't really grok Patrick Sullivan's system, so I've left that out.
Alphaks - Decay (magic and fire related) / Ravening (ditto, but emphasizes pure destruction more, so even better)
Atzanteotl - Either Decay (spiritual rather than physical corruption) or Madness / Discord (see, not completely parallel - he definitely fits Discord better than Ravening, but I really think he fits Decay better than Madness)
Bagni Gullymaw - Decay again (digestion counts!) / Ravening (probably the purest)
Bartziluth - Hmm, don't remember much about him. Big on Strength, right? I guess Stasis (fighter-related) under both systems
Cretia - This was the evil Ethangarian Earth spirit, right? Clearly Stasis again.
Demogorgon - ? Don't remember much about him, except that he's a lord of demons - but they all are!
Hel - She's ruler of the land of the dead, that's all I recall. Maybe Void / Negation, since I associate her with cold.
Jammudaru - The Prince of Nightmares. Madness / Discord
Karaash - ? (I really dunno. See the discussion of war gods above.)
Kurtulmak - The Shining One. I put him in Void, since it's thief and darkness related, and while his power is shining and blinding, I think it's an interesting "rogue" member of the sphere. I could see him leading an interesting heresy that says the Void isn't necessarily dark - darkness and light are both properties of it, and darkness isn't just the absence of light. I could even see the main Immortal of Darkness (I was gonna say Nyx, but that's undead) taking his side here, since it makes them more powerful since Darkness is a thing and not just lack of light. Void / Negation
Loki - Madness / Discord
Nyx - Like I said above, Stasis
Opal - This was the Chaotic Dragon Ruler, right? Uh, dunno what's most appropriate: tempted to say Void / Negation and be done with it.
Orcus- ? See Demogorgon.
Ranivorus - Madness / Discord
Saasskas the Destroyer - ? Ok, I've never even heard of him, but clearly he's Entropic.
Thanatos - Void / Negation
Wogar - ?
Yagrai - He-Who-Always-Rises, which is a power to resist change, which means Stasis
I KNOW I missed a bunch - in fact, there were a lot whose names I recognized and I was 90% sure they were Entropic, but I didn't want to include anyone I wasn't absolutely sure of.
So under my system, this gives:
Void - 4
Stasis - 4
Decay - 3 or 4 (depending on where we put Atzanteotl)
Madness - 3 or 4 (again, depending on Atzanteotl)
That's better balanced than I expected, but then, that's only a handful.
Geoff
The Nameless One
“In the deepest vault of Pandius there is a chamber, which only the reigning Hierarchs may enter. No one in that Immortal city knows who carved it out of the living rock, or when, or for what purpose. Rumours abound, of course, as would be the case in mortal realms: The chamber contains relics of the Old Ones; it contains an artefact that shows what the future will ultimately bring, despite Immortal manipulations; it is a private meeting room where the Hierarchs discuss their true plans.”
None of these rumours are true.
The chamber is empty save for a chair, upon which sits a hunched figure, almost lost in a shapeless grey hooded robe. The figure is always in shadow, its form indistinct and its face never visible. At times the figure seems as insignificant as a mortal, and other times one receives the impression that it somehow occupies the entire chamber – and more. For the most part the figure sits silently, but sometimes it mutters quietly to itself, and on rare occasions it will converse with visitors. Although it does not appear to be restrained in any way, it never leaves its chair.
Were the hunched figure known to all the inhabitants of Pandius, there would be an uproar, for it is an Outer Being – or at least an aspect of one. Its name is unknown to those who visit It, and there is no record of It anywhere in the city. No existing Immortal who is aware of It knows when It was brought to Pandius, or by whom; although the Hierarchs privately suspect that It was brought there by the Old Ones in ages past, perhaps during the titanic battle against the Outer Beings at the dawn of creation.
Their suspicion is correct. In ages past, during the cosmic battle between the Old Ones and the Outer Beings for supremacy over the multiverse, there was a period where the Old Ones were in retreat. They had underestimated Their foes, and as a result Their decimated legions had been thrown back from over a thousand worlds, and Their very control over the key nexus points of magical energy was threatened. In this perilous time, when all seemed lost, a lone Outer Being contacted the Old Ones, and offered Them many of the secrets of Its unspeakable kin, and the assistance of Its own legions, in exchange for mercy. The Old Ones were shocked, for They had all but given up hope of victory, but soon realised that It possessed a level of prescience unknown even to Them. They asked It why It would do such a thing, and Its response was remembered by all present, and passed down through the ages: “I do this thing because even I may not stand against the march of Time.”
The deal was made, and with the knowledge imparted by the Outer Being, who would not give Its name, the tide of battle turned. The Outer Beings were ultimately defeated and imprisoned in other dimensions; and Their followers were for the most part destroyed, or banished. Due to the nature of the magics used by the Old Ones to banish Their foes, which even They could not fully control, the Nameless One would have been imprisoned as well; but the deal was honoured, and the greater part of Its essence was allowed to stay on the Prime Plane, but in doing so It was reduced in power. Since that time, It has rested in the secret chamber, above which the great city of Pandius was eventually built.
It is said by those who know of It that the Nameless One is unmatched in prescience – that It in fact created the talent in ages past. They say that It sees time as it truly is, as it will ultimately be, and that only It truly knows what the end of time will bring. Those who know of It visit the Nameless One in the hopes of receiving some cryptic message that will reveal some hidden truth, or some insight that will show them what will really come to pass. Sometimes they find what they seek, other times they are confronted with unearthly silence, or by strange mutterings that are beyond comprehension.
“In the deepest vault of Pandius there is a chamber, which only the reigning Hierarchs may enter. No one in that Immortal city knows who carved it out of the living rock, or when, or for what purpose...."
Fantastic idea! I like it! Is there, however, "living rock" on Matera? Great job!
For one thing, I thought that all the Humanoid Immortals were Entropic, but it turns out Karaash is from the Sphere of Thought, and similar for a lot of the others. (That's too bad - I really liked the idea of the Shining One being from the Sphere of Void). So here's the new list, with a lot of gaps since I don't even recognize a lot of these:
Hierarch
Hel (36, NE) - Stasis (IIRC, she rules an icy land of the dead) / Ravening (returns soulls to the world to perform evil)
Thanatos (35, CE) - Decay (death, destruction, chaos) / Negation (ultimate death)
Nyx (33, NE) - Void (night) / Stasis (undead)
Atzanteotl (31, NE) - Madness (spiritual corruption) / Discord (ditto)
Eternal
Demogorgon (30, CE) - Decay (diseases, destruction, corruption) / Ravening (ditto)
Loki (30, CE) - Madness (trickster) / Discord (ditto)
Masauwu (28, NE) - Madness (deceit, illusion, politics) / Discord (ditto)
Orcus (25, CE) - Decay (violence, mass destruction) / Negation (ditto)
Talitha (25, CE) - Madness (revenge) / Discord (ditto)
Empyreal
Bachraeus (23, CE) - ?
Alphaks (20, CE) - Decay (magic-users, fire, destruction) / Ravening (ditto)
Celestial
Arik (18, CE) - Madness (madness, nightmares) / Discord (ditto)
Skuld (17, N) - Decay (a former giant who likes to smash things) / Negation (ditto)
Saasskas (17, CE) - Void (patron of vampires and devil-fish) / Stasis (undead patron)
Ranivorus (16, CE) - Madness (madness, devouring) / Ravening (ditto)
Idris (15, NE) - Stasis (creating the perfect race, destroying elves/forests; ok, I only put her here because Decay and Madness were over-represented) / Stasis (ditto)
Danel (14, NE) - Madness (sponsored by Atzanteotl) / Discord (inter-tribe warfare)
Leptar (13, CE) - Void (demon-lord) / Negation (ditto)
Bagni Gullymaw (13, CE) - Decay (digestion) / Ravening (ditto)
Temporal
Yagrai (12, NE) - Stasis (ressurection) / Stasis (ditto)
Brissard (10, NE) - Madness (negotiator) / Negation (ditto)
Initiate
Aracne Prime (6, LE) - Void (planar spiders) / Negation (ditto)
Jammudaru (5, CE) - Madness (nightmares - man, there are a lot of patrons of madness and nightmares) / Discord (ditto)
Gylgarid (3, CE) - Madness (cruelty, berserkers) / Ravening (ditto)
That gives us 3 Immortals of Stasis, 6 Immortals of Decay, 4 Immortal of Void, 10 Immortals of Madness, and 1 unassigned. That's way more Madness than I expected - and Decay and Madness have a complete lock on Eternals. Hopefully Bachraeus can be made Stasis, at least.
Or in eldersphinx's system, 7 Discord, 7 Negation, 4 Stasis, 6 Ravening - that's a lot more balanced, which is a good argument that his system is better overall.
Aracne Prime (6, LE) - Stasis (webs) or Void (just because it's under-represented and evil spiders seem very dark)
I'd go with Void, as her primary followers are Planar Spiders (void = planes/spaces, etc.)
I'll help where I can:
Hel= Hel's big shtick is the reincarnation of dead souls, at least on Mystara. She's the one responsible for the Beastmen (humanoids) among other things. She rules over a domain of the dead, and likes to make sure that the evil ones are sent back into the world to create more evil. She'd probably work better as Decay than as Stasis, as a result.
Actually, I still think this works well as Stasis - returning the same souls to the world over and over to keep the level of evil constant.
Talitha= Talitha, IIRC, is the patroness of Revenge. She's the Punisher of the Immortals. Decay, then, would probably fit?
Hmm, I'd really like more non-Decay: it doesn't have a complete monopoly over violence. But I guess Madness is the other obvious one (since revenge is a state of mind) and it's even more over-represented. so Decay it is. EDIT: no, revenge definitely seems like it would be Madness.
Saasskas= She's the patron of the Devilfish, so is associated with evil, clerics, and vampires. I'd say Madness or Void might work for this one.
Yay Void! I think I'll make Leptar the same, since he's a demon lord, and demons could definitely come from the Void.
Danel= He's the patron of the Tiger Clan of Atruaghin people. He was turned to the ways of Entropy by Atzanteotl. Given his hatred and desire for revenge for (perceived but mistaken) wrongs by other Atruaghin Immortals, possibly Madness or Decay.
Given that he was sponsored by Atzanteotl, Madness seems most appropriate.
Brissard= He's a "smooth-talking" Immortal, and he often recruits/negotiates on behalf of other Entropics. Madness or Decay?
Hmm, so quite a bit like Masauwu - that'd definitely be Madness.
List updated.
(snip)
That gives us 3 Immortals of Stasis, 6 Immortals of Decay, 4 Immortal of Void, 10 Immortals of Madness, and 1 unassigned. That's way more Madness than I expected - and Decay and Madness have a complete lock on Eternals. Hopefully Bachraeus can be made Stasis, at least.
Or in eldersphinx's system, 7 Discord, 7 Negation, 4 Stasis, 6 Ravening - that's a lot more balanced, which is a good argument that his system is better overall.
Well, it's a much more balanced list looking at the interests of Immortals that are active on Mystara. Which is a living, vibrant planet with many cultures interacting - much easier for something like Madness or Decay to take hold than an endless Stasis or some kind of alien incomprehensible Void. Immortals of the other two 'subspheres' may well be inclined to meddle with mortals in LaTerre, the Dimension of Nightmares, or similar esoteric locations, and simply not be very active on the Prime.
(Which is kinda another topic I need to flesh out when I have time - Immortals outside of the Prime plane/Mystaran multiverse dimension, interests and activities. So much to do...
)The Hundred Eyes are obviously Minor Artifacts (Gems).
The Orcs of Thar gazetter describes several.
Bartziluth (Hruggek) an Immortal Bugbear rising in the Sphere of Energy by thumping Wizards with his mace.
The Shining one (Kurtulmak) a Norse kobold and military tactician perhaps from the sphere of Energy and Light. Following the Path of the Conqueror far beneath the surface of the world. DM Sourcebook for hollow world says Energy.
Wogar is hard to tell, He builds a tribe that lasts until well after his death (The tribe of Wogar), He quests for an Artifact of Enthropy (The Blue Knife could be a piece of the other Reactor that was destroyed creating the Broken Lands and very significant to Atzanteotl) and would probably destroy it in Quest. He leaves behind a successor (who promptly fails and the tribes fall apart).
He may well have quested as the Sphere of Thought but is in the DM sourcebook for hollow world as Matter.
Ranivorus (followed by the Gnolls) is Enthropy.
Bagni Gullymaw (a Troll immortal) ate his way there. You are what you eat in the literal sense. Polymath of Matter. DM sourcebook/Hollow world says Enthropy
Yargrai (He who always rises) just screams Orcish Vampire (it was a ring of regeneration). Sphere of Enthropy.
Jammudaru (Vaprak, Prince of Nightmares) Enthropy.
Karaash is another Conqueror. But he did it to prove his strength over all opponents. I thought Energy. DM Sourcebook/hollow world says Thought.
Mentzer Gold Box:
- Presented a system in which Immortals could do just about anything, with proper use of Power.
- Proper Power management, on the other hand, was nearly impossible; figuring out the best way to deal with a problem from among the "oh gobs of possible abilities" was a huge headache for players, even worse for DMs.
- Immortal characters had almost no uniqueness or differentiation, aside from personal ability scores and Sphere membership.
- Had a broad setup for Immortal social activity, monsters and challenges, and ideas for campaigning in the Outer Planes and beyond.
- Probably not suitable for long-term gaming; the rules system was too complex and granular, and the setting too sketchy and uneven.
- Adventure modules (the IM line) had begun to improve on setting ideas and provided potential encounters, but died before critical mass could be reached.
Allston WotI Box:
- Greatly simplified the Mentzer system, making ability choice much easier and allowing Power selections that made characters unique.
- The simplification unfortunately threw resource management out the window entirely; a character could reasonably do anything with a minimal expenditure of Power.
- Made sweeping suggestions for using Immortal society, politics and rivalries in a campaign, but didn't do much to follow these up other than "use GM fiat".
- Eliminated many of the Mentzer monsters and extradimensional challenges; most of those that remained were drastically depowered.
- Probably not suitable for long-term gaming; no resource management, no good opponents other than other Immortals, no solid mechanics for running encounters or game sessions.
- Had basically no support.
3E Deities and Demigods rules:
- Offer a wide array of unique abilities and special rules for deific characters, and a "Divine Rank" progression.
- Don't offer good rules for deific character advancement, other than to "pile on the class levels" - which doesn't advance Divine Rank, and doesn't take improved character power due to divine abilities into account.
- Arguably quite broken for use by PCs - consider the "Alter Reality" divine ability, or the "Automatic Actions" trait when combined with a deity with a portfolio of combat or magic.
- Aside from some basic rules on including clerical domains as part of a character, contains no rules outside of character creation for an Immortal-level campaign.
- Absolutely not suitable for long-term gaming IMHO, due to being badly unbalanced and one-dimensional.
3E Epic Levels rules:
- Offer a solid rules base for advancing mortal characters to very high levels.
- Include rules on challenging high-level PCs with monsters, obstacles and plot concerns; probably the most playable setup for high-level D&D play out there.
- Several aspects of the system are arguably unbalanced or broken, most notably Epic Spellcasting. Continued "power creep" can gradually make the game unplayable.
- Not actually a rules system for running Immortal or divine characters (and as a side note, really doesn't integrate well with the DDG rules - the flaws complement one another).
My Ideal Immortals Rules:
- Allow Immortals to do most anything that a high-level (~30th level in 0E, ~21st level in 3E) mortal character could do, plus personalized unique abilities.
- Include challenges and resource management issues, but on an entirely different level than mortal play - by establishing new concerns and worries for Immortals, rather than ramping mortal threats up to absurd levels.
- Establish a solid progression of power levels (four Epic-level mortals can tangle with one Initiate and come out alive; four or five Initiates can stymie one Celestial; a group of Celestials can deal with an Eternal; Eternals are needed to face down a Full Hierarch). Ramp up abilities so that a character with 1,000+ Power has something to spend the points pool on.
- Establish a setting and rules mechanics where "personal intervention" by Immortals is not the only or even most common type of adventure. Entire sessions should be playable where players of Immortal PCs direct nations of mortal followers or advance Plots (borrowing conflict mechanics from the Spycraft RPG, potentially) or engage in similar hands-off gaming. If I want a game of "kill the monster, steal its treasure" on a planet-demolishing scale, the Epic Level rules are already there.
- Establish a game universe in which the Immortals are but one power among many - supreme on Mystara, perhaps, but not unchallenged in the multiverse. Possible antagonists include Outer Beings, extradimensional deifics, draeden spawn, and others.
Okay, so I'm dreaming. Still, it'd be fun, wouldn't it? :D