or is all of this moot because there is no distinction made between epic regular prestige class and straight-up epic prestige class?
what if the dragon class weren't an epic class? if it were a regular prestige class would it get the dual progression bonuses?
just some thoughts in general. don't hurt me.
However... an Avangion on the other hand.. could indeed be able to have a progression with both psionics and magic... or even one that favored psionics after a fassion.. back in 2e, they got wisdom bonuses, which favored a 2e psionicist.. and had no mention of a restriction to the number of powers.. therefore they simply got the same number of abilities as a 30th level psionicist eventually.. which.. if you saw the chart.. was a ton of powers and psp's.... you could do anything you wanted!
I hope they make Avangions more potent in the magic and psionic realms... especially since they won't have they physical offensive advantage Dragons do... they have physical protections its true.. but that's not quite as potent as being able to breath molten sand on an oposing army... it just makes sense to have Avangions with higher magical and psionic abilities... IMHO
I think it makes sense as is at present, especially because of the way in 2e dragons didn't have the highest progression in psionics and being able to have living creatures as a source of life energy for their spells is especially handy (especially in battles.. "you take 10d6 hp damage.. and then his spell hits you for this much after its cast....") know what I mean?? Check the description of a Dragon's Psionic power restrictions back in the Dragon Kings book... mentally they weren't the most powerful, though they were tops.. (probably to do with the whole rage thingy) ;)
Huh... I'll have to reread that, it's interesting if true, because my original decision for making them less-capable with psionics rather than magic, was a decision that had not included that line of reasoning within it. If true, it just further supports the requirement changes.
However... an Avangion on the other hand.. could indeed be able to have a progression with both psionics and magic... or even one that favored psionics after a fassion.. back in 2e, they got wisdom bonuses, which favored a 2e psionicist.. and had no mention of a restriction to the number of powers.. therefore they simply got the same number of abilities as a 30th level psionicist eventually.. which.. if you saw the chart.. was a ton of powers and psp's.... you could do anything you wanted!
Unfortunately, I don't think that will fly, as we are not just balancing the Advanced Beings against each other, but also against any Epic Level characters of equal level. It does make things more difficult, but I am currently compiling my list of suggestions for Avangions for the Bureau, and we'll see where we go from there.
I hope they make Avangions more potent in the magic and psionic realms... especially since they won't have they physical offensive advantage Dragons do... they have physical protections its true.. but that's not quite as potent as being able to breath molten sand on an oposing army... it just makes sense to have Avangions with higher magical and psionic abilities... IMHO
I'm definitely a strong supporter of Avangions being more powerful with psionics and magic than Dragons. However, I'm also kinda intrigued by making their development process much more rigorous than the Dragon's. What I mean is, where the Dragon seems to linearly progress from one stage to the next in a steadily-increasing metamorphosis, I'd rather see the Avangion take a more exponential curve of development, where they are actually lower-powered than the Dragons are for quite some time, developing/progressing in power at a slower speed at first, but then catching up near the end, with the two being equally powered by stage-10. This would mean, of course, that an Avangion at stage-1 might be similar to a Dragon at stage-1, but an Avangion at stage-5 is concievably weaker in power than a Dragon at stage-5, but at Stage-10 they both meet up again, with the Dragon having physical prowess in combination with their magic and psionics, while Avangions are physically very frail, but have more psionics and magical power to boost them.
Example of this line of thinking I'm working for with Avangions -- by Stage-10, Avangions casting spells are ALWAYS treated as being in the best terrain, so effectively, the Avangion gets a permanent +2 to their spellcaster level (they are drawing on their own internal power source for all spells). And, I'd like them to have been gaining quite an impressive set of additional power points, maybe even being able to spend more power points per turn than their manifester level (like +1 or +2 additional manifester levels as well).
I can't guarentee that we'll be using these ideas in the development of the Avangions, but it's part of the list of ideas I'm putting togewther to submit to the bureau (and hopefully jumpstart the process).
Huh... I'll have to reread that, it's interesting if true, because my original decision for making them less-capable with psionics rather than magic, was a decision that had not included that line of reasoning within it. If true, it just further supports the requirement changes.
Its in the original Dragon Kings as I said.. (the part about fewer psionic powers that is.. though it doesn't link that to the rage.. that was my view) but cool deal that you got to the same end idea without knowing that part..
Unfortunately, I don't think that will fly, as we are not just balancing the Advanced Beings against each other, but also against any Epic Level characters of equal level. It does make things more difficult, but I am currently compiling my list of suggestions for Avangions for the Bureau, and we'll see where we go from there.
I understand that aspect of balance, though its kind of unfortunate in some ways.. but that just means that people will need to "role" play, rather than "roll" playing ;)
As far as your ideas go for the Avangion, I simply have one request.. if the Avangion does gain any inate abilities that are also had by a cleric or druid advanced being.. (such as an ability to protect the land from defilement) I'd simply request that there be a very strong and unique fluff concept to back it up, to make it distinct from what the clerics and druids do that accomplishes the same thing..
I'm definitely a strong supporter of Avangions being more powerful with psionics and magic than Dragons. However, I'm also kinda intrigued by making their development process much more rigorous than the Dragon's. ...an Avangion at stage-1 might be similar to a Dragon at stage-1, but an Avangion at stage-5 is concievably weaker in power than a Dragon at stage-5, but at Stage-10 they both meet up again, with the Dragon having physical prowess in combination with their magic and psionics, while Avangions are physically very frail, but have more psionics and magical power to boost them...
I think that would be worth taking a look at.. it would definitely support all the Avangions in the books and side stories going into hiding durring their transformations (above and beyond the original spell descriptions requirement of occasional sollitude). After all, there are how many SK's left after bory's death? and how many Avangions are in the making by that time?? There's Oronis.. the Avangion that was eaten by a halfling durring the end of the psionatrix story.. (whatever his name was) .. another was contacted by a urikite templar in a short story I read... that one just began its transformation... there's the Wanderer also..
Even with the threat of the SK's teaming up against the Avangions.. things are starting to get a bit balanced.. unless of course.. the Avangions have an inherant reason to delay a confrontation until their transformation is complete... your idea gives an inherant reason.. above and beyond the thought that SK's united in a battle could defile huge areas... (which spells do exist to remedy.. as long as the good guys win..)
Keep up the good work
It would be great if the Epic folks would kinda throw out the ideas they have now and we can worry them over like a ham bone. :D
Its in the original Dragon Kings as I said.. (the part about fewer psionic powers that is.. though it doesn't link that to the rage.. that was my view) but cool deal that you got to the same end idea without knowing that part..
Well, it's like someone else earlier had pointed out that the WotC pamphlet for converting 2e -> 3e characters, when explaining multiclass characters, came up with a startlingly similar level structure as I had found out independent of that pamphlet.
I understand that aspect of balance, though its kind of unfortunate in some ways.. but that just means that people will need to "role" play, rather than "roll" playing ;)
As far as your ideas go for the Avangion, I simply have one request.. if the Avangion does gain any inate abilities that are also had by a cleric or druid advanced being.. (such as an ability to protect the land from defilement) I'd simply request that there be a very strong and unique fluff concept to back it up, to make it distinct from what the clerics and druids do that accomplishes the same thing..
The Avangion will have different abilities, working in a different way. They'd not protect an area of land, but possibly be able to suppliment their own internal power to stop a defiler (still not certian on that), or just that the Avangion has the ability to restore the land (albeit in very small patches at a time).
I think that would be worth taking a look at.. it would definitely support all the Avangions in the books and side stories going into hiding durring their transformations (above and beyond the original spell descriptions requirement of occasional sollitude). After all, there are how many SK's left after bory's death? and how many Avangions are in the making by that time?? There's Oronis.. the Avangion that was eaten by a halfling durring the end of the psionatrix story.. (whatever his name was) .. another was contacted by a urikite templar in a short story I read... that one just began its transformation... there's the Wanderer also..
The Wanderer is only referenced as an Avangion in the Tribe of One book series, which has more flaws in it than good material. While I do like the idea of using magic items/artifacts in order to fuel the transformational spells, I'm still not keen on the radical change for that character to take. To date, there were (I believe) 3 Avangions, 2 of them are dead, leaving only 1: Oronis. In other threads (check Pennarin's archive thread stickied above for the link about the "Great One" inconsistancies) I've talked about my take on why Avangions had appeared and disappeared in history. I believe someone mentioned that there might be a fourth (not the Wanderer!) but once again, I can only think of three -- Oronis, Besteren (I think), and Korgunard. Korgunard and Besteren died, leaving Oronis. And according to Defilers & Preservers, Oronis feels so bad that his two pupils had died because of their being Avangions, that he's locked that secret away and refuses to show it to anyone else.
Even with the threat of the SK's teaming up against the Avangions.. things are starting to get a bit balanced.. unless of course.. the Avangions have an inherant reason to delay a confrontation until their transformation is complete... your idea gives an inherant reason.. above and beyond the thought that SK's united in a battle could defile huge areas... (which spells do exist to remedy.. as long as the good guys win..)
Keep up the good work
Thanks
To date, there were (I believe) 3 Avangions, 2 of them are dead, leaving only 1: Oronis. In other threads (check Pennarin's archive thread stickied above for the link about the "Great One" inconsistancies) I've talked about my take on why Avangions had appeared and disappeared in history. I believe someone mentioned that there might be a fourth (not the Wanderer!) but once again, I can only think of three -- Oronis, Besteren (I think), and Korgunard. Korgunard and Besteren died, leaving Oronis. And according to Defilers & Preservers, Oronis feels so bad that his two pupils had died because of their being Avangions, that he's locked that secret away and refuses to show it to anyone else.
Just to clear things up -
183rd King's Age (-539)
-Guthay's Fury
With the aid of a wizard named Besteren, Oronis (formerly known as Keltis)
develops the preserver metamorphosis spell to counter Rajaat's vile magic.
The spell nearly kills him, but in the end Oronis emerges as Athas's first
avangion.
184th King's Age (-462)
-King's Fury
Oronis gives the preserver metamorphosis spell to a preserver/psionicist
named Nerad, who becomes Athas's second avangion.
-Wind's Fury
After revealing himself to the Veiled Alliance of Tyr, Nerad is discovered
by King Kalak-who in turn contacts the Dragon. Borys later kills Nerad
south of Tyr. In his grief, Oronis hides all copies of the preserver
metamorphosis spell.
190th King's Age
...
-Desert's Slumber
After years of investigation into the death of Nerad, a
preserver/psionicist named Korgunard learns of Oronis of Kurn. Though
reluctant to have another death on his hands, Oronis gives him the
preserver metamorphosis spell-but does not allow him to retain a copy.
...
-Wind's Reverence (Free Year 2)
...
Aided by the Veiled Alliance of Urik, Korgunard becomes Athas's third
avangion.
Further more, in Lynn Abbey's short story Service (which came with the adventure Black Flames), a fourth avangion, Amiska, arises. It was written by Abbey, so some of the details in the story are sketchy in places. As such, I'm sure most will disregard it as non-cannon, but overall, I dig the idea of an avangion arising quite possibly without the aid of Oronis.
Just to clear things up -
183rd King's Age (-539)
-Guthay's Fury
With the aid of a wizard named Besteren, Oronis (formerly known as Keltis)
develops the preserver metamorphosis spell to counter Rajaat's vile magic.
The spell nearly kills him, but in the end Oronis emerges as Athas's first
avangion.
184th King's Age (-462)
-King's Fury
Oronis gives the preserver metamorphosis spell to a preserver/psionicist
named Nerad, who becomes Athas's second avangion.
-Wind's Fury
After revealing himself to the Veiled Alliance of Tyr, Nerad is discovered
by King Kalak-who in turn contacts the Dragon. Borys later kills Nerad
south of Tyr. In his grief, Oronis hides all copies of the preserver
metamorphosis spell.
190th King's Age
...
-Desert's Slumber
After years of investigation into the death of Nerad, a
preserver/psionicist named Korgunard learns of Oronis of Kurn. Though
reluctant to have another death on his hands, Oronis gives him the
preserver metamorphosis spell-but does not allow him to retain a copy.
...
-Wind's Reverence (Free Year 2)
...
Aided by the Veiled Alliance of Urik, Korgunard becomes Athas's third
avangion.
Further more, in Lynn Abbey's short story Service (which came with the adventure Black Flames), a fourth avangion, Amiska, arises. It was written by Abbey, so some of the details in the story are sketchy in places. As such, I'm sure most will disregard it as non-cannon, but overall, I dig the idea of an avangion arising quite possibly without the aid of Oronis.
That was the name. I knew Bestaren had been part of the process, but couldn't remember exactly where.
And about Abbey's works being considered non-canon, the thing is... people have to make judgement calls on it. Completely dismissing everything in a book because of a handful of inaccuracies isn't exactly the best approach to take, in my opinion. That's why even despite the much larger inaccuracies within the Tribe of One series, I still like some of the elements within it.
if you completely dismiss tribe of one as canon, you have to dismiss city-state of tyr as well: they reference each other.
I dismiss a bunch of the things in Tribe of One, because they conflict too much with the established (sic) setting. But there are other parts that are OK. However, the Wanderer being an Avangion falls into the former, not the latter category.
I do like the Tribe of One series as a fun little story to read. I personally like Rise and Fall of a Dragon King a bit more, despite the inconsistancies that I also work around similarly in that novel. Hell, I even work around the inconsistancies the Prism Pentad series. Everyone does it, everyone has their own take on it.
Note, by the "established" seting, I do mean my own personal view as to what inconsistancies are to be taken as correct, and which are to be taken as incorrect, which does vary from person to person quite drastically, and has been the root cause of many an argument on this forum (particularly with regards to Avangions & Dragons, the Sorcerer-Kings, and other really big things of that nature).
if you completely dismiss tribe of one as canon, you have to dismiss city-state of tyr as well: they reference each other.
Its more probable ToO took existing info in CSoT and incorporated it in its story, just like RaFoaDK took parts of the existing Timeline and incorporated it in its story.
The Avangion will have different abilities, working in a different way. They'd not protect an area of land, but possibly be able to suppliment their own internal power to stop a defiler (still not certian on that), or just that the Avangion has the ability to restore the land (albeit in very small patches at a time).
That land restoration ability is exactly what I was referring to... I've seen the idea tossed around on the boards long ago.. if it does appear with both cleric and avangion AB's then I hope there is a slight difference mechanic wise and a sufficient amount of fluff to make it unique after a fashion.. While preservers do represent the side of magic that does work with the natural order of things (sort of) I wouldn't want them to evolve into a sort of clerical crossbreed due to inate abilities.. after all.. a spell can be used to undo defiled land, and epic spells used to restore plantlife.. the ability to defer defiler damage or restore razed land by an avangion would need to be IMO carefully done, so as not to seem repetative or too clericish.. especially if later on an earth cleric AB gets the same power.. or a druid AB..
The Wanderer is only referenced as an Avangion in the Tribe of One book series, which has more flaws in it than good material. While I do like the idea of using magic items/artifacts in order to fuel the transformational spells, I'm still not keen on the radical change for that character to take. To date, there were (I believe) 3 Avangions, 2 of them are dead, leaving only 1: Oronis. In other threads (check Pennarin's archive thread stickied above for the link about the "Great One" inconsistancies) I've talked about my take on why Avangions had appeared and disappeared in history. I believe someone mentioned that there might be a fourth (not the Wanderer!) but once again, I can only think of three -- Oronis, Besteren (I think), and Korgunard. Korgunard and Besteren died, leaving Oronis. And according to Defilers & Preservers, Oronis feels so bad that his two pupils had died because of their being Avangions, that he's locked that secret away and refuses to show it to anyone else.
I also like the idea of magic items being used in the creation process.. though I didn't like the wanderer being an elf... those spells were written for humans.. if you fuged the rules a tiny bit and used some optional 2e mechanics.. and thought that a character was no longer his old race after he cast the first spell.. then yeah.. I suppose it could work.. but unlikely..
Without having read the link you mentioned.. is your take that avangions time travel? I've heard that one before.. its interesting.. I could live with that.. though it would make role playing them a terror for DM's who don't like time travel.. ( I happen to love it though)
Squid.. in your timeline.. when does borys die?? what year??
Further more, in Lynn Abbey's short story Service (which came with the adventure Black Flames), a fourth avangion, Amiska, arises. It was written by Abbey, so some of the details in the story are sketchy in places. As such, I'm sure most will disregard it as non-cannon, but overall, I dig the idea of an avangion arising quite possibly without the aid of Oronis.
What details?
I've read it twice this year and its a very good story. Solid. Even advances the fluff a bit, introduces new concepts like the Agifari Bearer.
If you're talking about Hamanu affirming he's never met an avangion or that the Dragon never fought such a being, that can be two things:
1. Hamanu never met an avangion: Services might have happened before Hamanu met Korgunard. (i.e. the story predates the series of adventures that involve Korgunard)
2. The Dragon never fought an avangion: Nerad and his "recorded" death at the hands of the Dragon, is mentionned in the Book of Artifacts, and I don't think Abbey knew there were Athasian artifacts in that book.
3. All of the above: Its all, ultimately, information given by Hamanu to his templarate, so he can say whatever he wants.
Race- Human
Gender- Male, and I think that goes without saying really!
Class- I have always thought he was an Earth Cleric, and I would even go so far as saying that he was an AB Earth Cleric due to the fact that he has not only traveled the length and breath of the Tablelands several times, but he has also explored the outer areas too. Another distinguishing feature that he has is this misshapen hand- I believe that it is describe as having claws too- this could have been a result of his exploration of the Pristine Tower- though he was able to stave off further transformation due to his elemental nature and magical/psionic power.
I think that there is a picture of him in the Revised DS setting- fighting an undead half-snake/human thing. His books would not really do him justice in respect to his level of power due to the fact that he is no glory hound and is not really writing about himself too much- and when he does I believe he down plays his role in the action.
That land restoration ability is exactly what I was referring to... I've seen the idea tossed around on the boards long ago.. if it does appear with both cleric and avangion AB's then I hope there is a slight difference mechanic wise and a sufficient amount of fluff to make it unique after a fashion.. While preservers do represent the side of magic that does work with the natural order of things (sort of) I wouldn't want them to evolve into a sort of clerical crossbreed due to inate abilities.. after all.. a spell can be used to undo defiled land, and epic spells used to restore plantlife.. the ability to defer defiler damage or restore razed land by an avangion would need to be IMO carefully done, so as not to seem repetative or too clericish.. especially if later on an earth cleric AB gets the same power.. or a druid AB..
Well, the Cleric AB's I'm not really for them being able to restore the land (after all, only Earth Clerics are directly in touch with the land
) -- now, I can see them substituting their health to help defend against a Defiler's life-draining attacks (the elemental ones, not fond of the paraelemental ones doing that).With the Spirits of the Land, I can see them having the ability to "lock" a section of land so that it cannot be used at all by arcane spellcasters for their life-energy draining effects.
With Avangions, I see them being able to use their own internal energy to restore the fertility of a section of land that had been defiled (like maybe,,,, a 10' square or maybe even a 10' radius circle).
Each has their own unique take on how to deal with Defilers in my book.
I also like the idea of magic items being used in the creation process.. though I didn't like the wanderer being an elf... those spells were written for humans.. if you fuged the rules a tiny bit and used some optional 2e mechanics.. and thought that a character was no longer his old race after he cast the first spell.. then yeah.. I suppose it could work.. but unlikely..
Well, there's going to be no racial restrictions in the new version, due to how there is no racial restrictions to class levels in Wizard(/Sorcerer) or Psion/Wilder/Psychic Warrior. As such, we're going to have it open. But no, the Wanderer has always been Human in my view.
Without having read the link you mentioned.. is your take that avangions time travel? I've heard that one before.. its interesting.. I could live with that.. though it would make role playing them a terror for DM's who don't like time travel.. ( I happen to love it though)
Yep, the time-travel take on things is my idea. You can either roleplay it, or simply take the character from the player for the time which that character is "missing" (which was how the 2e rules depicted how to deal with it). If roleplayed, I'd expect that it is a random, uncontrolled skilling through time, mainly focused on watching the development of Athas from the Green (maybe Blue) ages, up to the current virtually dead state it is in, in order to properly figure out how to reverse the effects (that energy-used-to-restore-the-land ability I mentioned above).
.People have mentioned the Wanderer several times lately and so here is my take on this figure.
Race- Human
Gender- Male, and I think that goes without saying really!
Class- I have always thought he was an Earth Cleric, and I would even go so far as saying that he was an AB Earth Cleric due to the fact that he has not only traveled the length and breath of the Tablelands several times, but he has also explored the outer areas too. Another distinguishing feature that he has is this misshapen hand- I believe that it is describe as having claws too- this could have been a result of his exploration of the Pristine Tower- though he was able to stave off further transformation due to his elemental nature and magical/psionic power.
I think that there is a picture of him in the Revised DS setting- fighting an undead half-snake/human thing. His books would not really do him justice in respect to his level of power due to the fact that he is no glory hound and is not really writing about himself too much- and when he does I believe he down plays his role in the action.
Who is the Wanderer?
"The Wanderer is a mysterious figure whom everyone knows but few can claim to have met. Tales say he's a human cleric of earth who never stays in one place, perhaps because of an insatiable curiousity......."
With the Spirits of the Land, I can see them having the ability to "lock" a section of land so that it cannot be used at all by arcane spellcasters for their life-energy draining effects.
Oooh, this is getting the juices flowing again.
With Avangions, I see them being able to use their own internal energy to restore the fertility of a section of land that had been defiled (like maybe,,,, a 10' square or maybe even a 10' radius circle).
I'd like to see it scale with class level personally, or something similar. Something closer to the way it scales for the Tree of Life. Though that is more using it's own life energy to power spells and less about turning sterile soil into fertile soil.
If roleplayed, I'd expect that it is a random, uncontrolled skilling through time, mainly focused on watching the development of Athas from the Green (maybe Blue) ages, up to the current virtually dead state it is in, in order to properly figure out how to reverse the effects (that energy-used-to-restore-the-land ability I mentioned above).
Sounds very Quantum Leapish, I like it.
I'd like to see it scale with class level personally, or something similar. Something closer to the way it scales for the Tree of Life. Though that is more using it's own life energy to power spells and less about turning sterile soil into fertile soil.
Well, the thing was.... I don't want it to ever get to be REAL big. The idea is it still takes Avangions a hell of a lot of time and energy to restore the world. I've even considered that when they use that kind of ability, they must then cast spells like a normal preserver that day, as their energy reserves were used to restore a section of land.
Sounds very Quantum Leapish, I like it.
heh yea... you're right. It's just I always had an issue, for a setting which is denied access to the Outer Planes, with how the Avangions supposedly went out into the Outer Planes to commune with outsiders during that period. I don't want them going to the Inner Planes, as that is the pervue of the clerics (and druids somewhat), so I was considering time. This also explains, I feel, why there are avangions that appear and disappear in the history of the world (like the Great One), even though the 2e books imply (or in some cases, outright state) that Oronis invented the Avangion process, seemingly by significantly reworking the Dragon process to be solidly preserver-oriented.
Just be ready for perspective Avangions to be needing to hunt for a ton of magic items, and/or artifacts, which then are used to cast progressive spells in the series. I'm also going to probably push for more of a physical backlash damage from the Avangion spells.
Well, the thing was.... I don't want it to ever get to be REAL big. The idea is it still takes Avangions a hell of a lot of time and energy to restore the world. I've even considered that when they use that kind of ability, they must then cast spells like a normal preserver that day, as their energy reserves were used to restore a section of land.
I'm just throwing out numbers here, but how about something along the lines of 5ft. per 5 levels of the Avangion PrC (or whatever you call it).
Now, once the Avangion does his preservation thing, he takes 2d6 temporary Constitution damage, and is automatically fatigued. Of course if she does it again she loses another 2d6 and becomes exhausted if she didn't get rid of her fatigue. On top of this add that once fatigued, they have to preserve, they can't power their spell internally.
This allows them to do it at least twice a day, unless of course they have ways of getting rid of fatigue, and even then they will still continue to take temp con damage until they can heal that or stop it.
Just something off the top of my head, I'm sure it could be tweaked alot more and made into something better.
heh yea... you're right. It's just I always had an issue, for a setting which is denied access to the Outer Planes, with how the Avangions supposedly went out into the Outer Planes to commune with outsiders during that period. I don't want them going to the Inner Planes, as that is the pervue of the clerics (and druids somewhat), so I was considering time. This also explains, I feel, why there are avangions that appear and disappear in the history of the world (like the Great One), even though the 2e books imply (or in some cases, outright state) that Oronis invented the Avangion process, seemingly by significantly reworking the Dragon process to be solidly preserver-oriented.
Hence why I like your idea that it's just Oronis going back in time (or whomever's it was). If he's the first Avangion and the highest level one once the other two or so come about, then it makes sense that history would be adjusted by traces of him first, since the others haven't had a chance to get that powerful and go back in time. Of course the idea is that it's a future version of Oronis since the current version of Oronis isn't powerful enough yet to atempt that stage of Avangion-hood.
I'm just throwing out numbers here, but how about something along the lines of 5ft. per 5 levels of the Avangion PrC (or whatever you call it).
Now, once the Avangion does his preservation thing, he takes 2d6 temporary Constitution damage, and is automatically fatigued. Of course if she does it again she loses another 2d6 and becomes exhausted if she didn't get rid of her fatigue. On top of this add that once fatigued, they have to preserve, they can't power their spell internally.
This allows them to do it at least twice a day, unless of course they have ways of getting rid of fatigue, and even then they will still continue to take temp con damage until they can heal that or stop it.
Just something off the top of my head, I'm sure it could be tweaked alot more and made into something better.
yea, I still have to sell it to the Bureau :P
Hence why I like your idea that it's just Oronis going back in time (or whomever's it was). If he's the first Avangion and the highest level one once the other two or so come about, then it makes sense that history would be adjusted by traces of him first, since the others haven't had a chance to get that powerful and go back in time. Of course the idea is that it's a future version of Oronis since the current version of Oronis isn't powerful enough yet to atempt that stage of Avangion-hood.
Bingo.
Squid.. in your timeline.. when does borys die?? what year??
Hee hee. In MY timeline
Borys dies in free year 10, just like so:-Friend's Agitation (Free Year 10)
...
Rikus of Tyr breaks the Scourge of Rkard a second time, this time in the
snout of the Dragon. The sword again issues forth a black ichor that
completely consumes Borys of Ebe.
*note - the timeline was not actually made by me, just quoted by me.
What details?
I've read it twice this year and its a very good story. Solid. Even advances the fluff a bit, introduces new concepts like the Agifari Bearer.
If you're talking about Hamanu affirming he's never met an avangion or that the Dragon never fought such a being, that can be two things:
1. Hamanu never met an avangion: Services might have happened before Hamanu met Korgunard. (i.e. the story predates the series of adventures that involve Korgunard)
2. The Dragon never fought an avangion: Nerad and his "recorded" death at the hands of the Dragon, is mentionned in the Book of Artifacts, and I don't think Abbey knew there were Athasian artifacts in that book.
3. All of the above: Its all, ultimately, information given by Hamanu to his templarate, so he can say whatever he wants.
The details I was referring to, simply because they stuck out in my mind, are mainly to do with the scroll Gelmin and Vasealia examine entitled The Legend of the Avangion and the Dragon (which is pretty cheesy I might add) and the conversation that follows.
1st - In it it speaks of an avangion sowing discord amongst the dragons to such a degree that they battle each other. Although possibly, seems like such an event would have serious repercussions down the line.
2nd - Vasealia seems to have just a bit too much knowledge about the avangions abilities.
and 3rd - According to the texts the avangion metamorphosis spell can only be cast by the light of the conjunct moons (which occurs for 1 night, every 11 years). I can spell out the problem with that theory with one word - Korgunard.
Now before you go off and try to explain why I'm wrong in pointing these out because they could be right for "this reason", please note - I said these points were sketchy (ie, questionable), not necessarily incorrect or pointless or any such thing. As I've said before problems like these can easily turn into great ideas with a little thought - and just to show how this is so, my minds already come up with several more ideas for ds, just by thinking over these little tidbits.
Isn't DS wonderful. :D
Amiska might have used a mitigating factor to allow her to cast more easily, or cheaply, the avangion metamorphosis spell.
Or, she can have developed a special version of the spell, i.e. she took the original spell from Oronis and reworked it so it included a new mitigating factor: the moons.
Xlor, did you ever look at the Services story to find new ideas for the avangion spells? (I know you probably didn't read the adventure, but this is a short story that comes with it and specifically describes a ritual of transformation. Btw, Amiska too uses "items" in her casting, one of which we know of, that being defiler bones. All her items, she says, were very difficult to find.)
1st - In it it speaks of an avangion sowing discord amongst the dragons to such a degree that they battle each other. Although possibly, seems like such an event would have serious repercussions down the line.
Sounds like a good prospect for a document that supports Xlor's avangion time travel theory.
Xlor, did you ever look at the Services story to find new ideas for the avangion spells? (I know you probably didn't read the adventure, but this is a short story that comes with it and specifically describes a ritual of transformation. Btw, Amiska too uses "items" in her casting, one of which we know of, that being defiler bones. All her items, she says, were very difficult to find.)
Sounds like a good prospect for a document that supports Xlor's avangion time travel theory.
I'll have to check it out. Honestly, I've only recently become aware that there were short stories attached to the adventure modules (umm... never really looked in them).
I'll have to check it out. Honestly, I've only recently become aware that there were short stories attached to the adventure modules (umm... never really looked in them).
That's just plain strange Xlor.
But I also envy you the chance to read brand new DS fiction.
There's also the following fiction:
"Water and Ashes", Dragon 185 (which, incidently, partially appears at the end of Veiled Alliance)
"Ashes to Ashes", Dragon 197
"Hunt's End", Dragon 220
That's just plain strange Xlor.
But I also envy you the chance to read brand new DS fiction.
Well, not if, for the longest time, I viewed pre-canned adventures as something revolting that I'd never even consider bringing to my games, and thus never bought them. When I bought all the PDF's, I also bought the adventure modules (figured "why not?")...but never really looked through them, except in passing.
Also, a number of the books I never got in hardcopy only in PDF, and the ones I got in PDF I never really looked in them to spot that there was actual short stories in the end of them (like Veiled Alliance).
There's also the following fiction:
"Water and Ashes", Dragon 185 (which, incidently, partially appears at the end of Veiled Alliance)
"Ashes to Ashes", Dragon 197
"Hunt's End", Dragon 220
Oh goody.... now to find THOSE magazines :P
.People have mentioned the Wanderer several times lately and so here is my take on this figure.
Race- Human
Gender- Male, and I think that goes without saying really!
Class- I have always thought he was an Earth Cleric, and I would even go so far as saying that he was an AB Earth Cleric due to the fact that he has not only traveled the length and breath of the Tablelands several times, but he has also explored the outer areas too. Another distinguishing feature that he has is this misshapen hand- I believe that it is describe as having claws too- this could have been a result of his exploration of the Pristine Tower- though he was able to stave off further transformation due to his elemental nature and magical/psionic power.
I think that there is a picture of him in the Revised DS setting- fighting an undead half-snake/human thing. His books would not really do him justice in respect to his level of power due to the fact that he is no glory hound and is not really writing about himself too much- and when he does I believe he down plays his role in the action.
Interesting take on the Wanderer, my own view was quite similar. I always figured him for an elemental priest of some sort, perhaps an AB along those lines. I always attributed his "reptilian" hand as a result of being injured within the vicinity of the Pristine Tower as well. He was left as a vague reference on purpose, I believe, so that individual DM's can make thier own decision as to what role he will play in thier campaigns. To take it one step further, I believe that is one possible explanation for all the inconsistencies that have cropped up throughout the various products over the years. Another possibility is that DS was the bastard child of the D&D line and as a result recieved less priority for development as the other worlds. This led to substandard editing and continuity. A real shame IMO.
end
I have never felt this pull, but one night while we were camped inside the city ruins, a glassy look came over my psionicist companion and he began conversing with an unseen partner in a strange language. Two days later, he went insane and murdered our kank driver. I was forced to kill him to defend myself.
-excerpt, The Wanderer's Journal (p.81)
This first hand account of the Wanderer's paints a pretty clear picture of him not having any skill in the Way. So the chances of him being an AB is lessened greatly. IMO he's just a straight-up bada$$ (read - epic level) earth cleric - which is just fine for me. Not every powerful NPC needs to be an AB. This just adds a little variety.
...However, there is something lurking out there in the quarters buried by the Sea of Silt. Psionicists claim that it is a being - or an object - of incredible power that makes contact with vulnerable minds and calls to them.
I have never felt this pull, but one night while we were camped inside the city ruins, a glassy look came over my psionicist companion and he began conversing with an unseen partner in a strange language. Two days later, he went insane and murdered our kank driver. I was forced to kill him to defend myself.
-excerpt, The Wanderer's Journal (p.81)
This first hand account of the Wanderer's paints a pretty clear picture of him not having any skill in the Way. So the chances of him being an AB is lessened greatly. IMO he's just a straight-up bada$$ (read - epic level) earth cleric - which is just fine for me. Not every powerful NPC needs to be an AB. This just adds a little variety.
True, so true
