Where exactly would Athas be located? It doesn't seem like other Prime worlds, as its surrounded by three planes. Where exactly is Athas, and how is it that Gods cannot establish a foothold on the world?
According to A Guide to the Ethereal Plane:
Thing is, this world is surrounded by a crystal sphere that possesses a strange feature known as the Gray. The Gray is a dreary metaphysical haze that renders the crystal sphere containing Athas impervious to physical entry, entirely replacing the Border Ethereal! Travelers in the Deep Ethereal who try to materialize onto Athas, a world of ash and death, automatically find themselves in the Gray. Athasians with access to items or spells that would turn users ethereal on another world find that these items provide entry only into the Gray. Other spells such as plane shift and contact other plane, as well as any other travel-related magic used to find or leave Athas, suffer the following effects:
On a d100:
01-08 - Traveler lost in the Gray
09-65 - The spell is cast but fizzles
66-99 - The spell works normally
If a body enters the Gray, she is lost. Once every 24 hours, she can attempt to return to the point where she first entered the Gray by rolling under her Intelligence score by a 1d100. For every day a poor sod remains in the Gray, she permanently loses 1 Constitution point.
The Inner Planes notes that Athas has many inner planar vortices, however, which seem to work fine. The silt seas have vortices to the Quasielemental Plane of Dust. There's also a portal called the Obsidian Gate of Tor Gaylen created by a sect of Athasian ash priests. If the stone of the portal is heated, a portal to the Elemental Plane of Ash opens.
Look at it this way, the Gith whom are a race known for their ability to travel easily between planes have become savages in Athas which would lead us to assume that even they can't escape the place.
Also note that the gith of Athas are the descendents of githyanki slaver/colonists who were warped and mutated by a powerful psionic bomb created by the githzerai, according to the Black Spine adventure.
The githyanki had actually created a portal (from the Astral) that pierced the Gray. They would have been much more successful, were it not for those blasted meddling githzerai (and their dog).
That doesn't explain why Gods cant establish a foothold on the world though. If Githyanki can get there, I dont see why Gods could not.
Not even the gods will touch Athas with a ten-foot pole. That's how harsh it is.
A short version: On Athas, there are no conduits, which normally channel energy from believers to their gods.
Which means getting to it involves going to the Elemental Planes and then from there to Athas, which would be a pain in the butt..
Combine that with the fact that gods don't get anything for their trouble and voiloi.
Beyond that, there are a few quirky portals from Athas to the planes directly, like the one that Cipher Thri-Kreen used when she first came to the planes. Or Dregoth's mirror.
Are those types of Gods the only type?
No, astral conduits only affect those gods who live in the Outer Planes.
Inner planar gods would presumedly have no problem granting spells to Athasians, and indeed it's assumed that powerful godlike elemental beings are the minds behind the spells cast by the elemental clerics of Athas. The spells granted by the Sorcerer-Kings also seem to come from power channeled through inner planar vortices.
However, because the Inner Planes have nothing to do with belief, it's very possible that gods there get no benefit from the beliefs of mortals. Or perhaps all belief energies travel through Astral conduits and meet the gods of the Inner Planes only indirectly, and from Athas not at all.
Well, to me anyway, having Gods dependant on their followers to survive and get power from doesn't seem to be very Godlike.
This problem is the major basis of the Athar faction. It sounds like if you were somehow transported to the Planescape multiverse you'd be an Athar too.
There are Overpowers, like AO, which do not have worshippers, and lord over the Gods that do. But Ao, has little or no interest in the affairs of mortals.
Anyway, I think its the true Gods that predate their worshippers, and only receive worship because they enjoy mortal devotion, and cannot die.
So yes, I think the Athar are on to something, but they make the mistake in assuming all Gods are the same as the belief addicts.
Well, yes. I'd think Gods were extremely powerful beings that have mortals at their mercy, not powerful beings that are addicted to belief energy in the same way as a mortal drug addict...
Extremely powerful beings in a symbiotic relationship with mortals. Sort of like a human and all those bacteriae living in his bowels. Or wherever.
There are Overpowers, like AO, which do not have worshippers, and lord over the Gods that do. But Ao, has little or no interest in the affairs of mortals.
May be so. But probably not. Then again. Nah. All Hail Discordia.
Anyway, I think its the true Gods that predate their worshippers, and only receive worship because they enjoy mortal devotion, and cannot die.
Ah, see, there's the problem right there. You're looking at the temporal dimension upside down. See here.
See also this essay for general divine power info.
The Inner Planes notes that Athas has many inner planar vortices, however, which seem to work fine. The silt seas have vortices to the Quasielemental Plane of Dust. There's also a portal called the Obsidian Gate of Tor Gaylen created by a sect of Athasian ash priests. If the stone of the portal is heated, a portal to the Elemental Plane of Ash opens.
Well, that's the Planescape side of the cosmology. The odd thing about Athas's Inner Planes is that Ooze seems to have changed to Silt, Ice to Rain, and Smoke to Sun. These three paraplanes (detailed in Air, Earth, Fire and Water) have their own clerics, can be travelled to from Athas via spell or vortex, are an active part of Athas's elemental wars, and yet aren't accessible from anywhere else in the multiverse. Even more oddly, the paraplane of Magma is both an established part of Athasian cosmology and regularly accessible from the rest of the multiverse.
Hmm... got an idea here. Might drop the full writeup over on Planeswalker in a day or so.
Well, that's the Planescape side of the cosmology.
Right. From the Planescape perspective, the Athasians only think they have a paraelemental plane called Silt. It's really just the Quasielemental Plane of Dust we all know and love, and the Clueless of Athas are confused about what plane borders what.
It depends on what campaign you're running, I guess. If it's a pure Dark Sun campaign, the Athasians are right about their cosmology. If it's mainly a Planescape campaign, they're probably wrong.
Of course, when it comes to planes, who's really to say what's right or wrong? There's no center of the multiverse, after all; perhaps all perspectives are equally valid, and only depend on your vantage point.
I feel the same way about Eberron...
It depends on what campaign you're running, I guess. If it's a pure Dark Sun campaign, the Athasians are right about their cosmology. If it's mainly a Planescape campaign, they're probably wrong.
Of course, when it comes to planes, who's really to say what's right or wrong? There's no center of the multiverse, after all; perhaps all perspectives are equally valid, and only depend on your vantage point.
Well said. Why should a Planescape fan and a Dark Sun fan argue about who is "right"?
Although I personally think the whole world of Athas makes more sense now that 3rd Edition does not enforce a "all worlds are connected"-rule anymore. For an avid Dark Sun player, Athas should be alone in the multiverse.
For my Planescape campaign, if I would like to make just a quick trip there and not get too much into the details of Athas, I let Athas be accessible (though hard to reach).
I can't answer the question exactly but I do remember reading that Athas is nearly impossible to escape from and aside from perhaps the Demi-plane of Dread is the hardest DnD campaign setting to leave. Look at it this way, the Gith whom are a race known for their ability to travel easily between planes have become savages in Athas which would lead us to assume that even they can't escape the place.
actually, the gith of athas are a variation of the githyanki who's ancestors on athas were affected by a psionic bomb placed in the githyanki city of yathlazor by the githzerai, any githyanki that goes to athas AFTER such psionic bomb was detonated can still plane-shift in and out of the athasian prime plane at will
I don't suppose there's a Dark Sun accessory that mentions these powers (if not their role in the GW)? I browsed through Air, earth, Fire and Water, but couldn't find anything.
Download "Dregoth Ascending - Part II", available at athas.org (see my signature). Athas never had any gods. Yes, really. Never.
I take it you mean:
"In his long study of the multiverse, Dregoth uncovered the reason why the gods of the planes have never turned their attention towards the world of Athas. The spiritual conduits that allow the gods of other worlds to draw strength from their worshipers do not exist on Athas. The spiritual conduits found on other worlds are replaced by elemental conduits on Athas, strongly
linking the world of Athas to the elemental Inner Planes. Dregoth has theorized that the presence of the Gray, the endless limbo where Athasians go when they die, is responsible for this state of affairs; because spiritual conduits cannot pierce the Gray and link Athas to the Outer Planes.
However, the elemental conduits easily pierce the Gray, granting the elemental clerics of Athas their power."
I don't think I like this cosmological explanation. I'd always imaagined there once were standard deities on Athas, during the the Green Age, but they died or were driven away by the cataclysms (since these caused a sudden and dramatic loss of believers). And now they'd be either completely forgotten, or reoriented to another sphere, thinking Athas isn't worth the hassle any more.
Did TSR ever say something on the matter of Green Age gods?
But in this case, I can truthfully answer that this is TSR's stand on the "gods" of Athas. Dregoth Ascending was fully developed when TSR went down. Wizards had the finished manuscript but decided not to continue Dark Sun. They handed us the manuscript (written by TSR's Kevin Melka) for conversion to D&D 3.0 & 3.5. The paragraph you quoted is directly from Kevin Melka and TSR.
Sadly, I expected an answer of this sort. I suppose that you deem Dregoth Ascending "not really official" because we at athas.org released it.
But in this case, I can truthfully answer that this is TSR's stand on the "gods" of Athas. Dregoth Ascending was fully developed when TSR went down. Wizards had the finished manuscript but decided not to continue Dark Sun. They handed us the manuscript (written by TSR's Kevin Melka) for conversion to D&D 3.0 & 3.5. The paragraph you quoted is directly from Kevin Melka and TSR.
Oh, yeah. If it wasn't published in a 96-page overpriced softcover with weird typefacing and Brom art, it can't be "really official". Everyone at the Other Worlds boards is going to be predisposed in that direction (with some slight subbing out of Brom for Elmore or DiTerlizzi as needed). NOT.
For myself, I don't doubt that Dregoth Ascending is "really official". I also don't doubt that its backstory fits nicely into the sausage plotgrinder, as needed to suit my campaign. If I want Athas to be abandoned by deities who fled in times of catastrophe, then it's been abandoned by deities who fled in times of catastrophe. And TSR's official stand on the setup doesn't really matter. It's not as if they weren't keen enough to borrow githyanki and nabassu as needed, anyway. =/
I just wanted to answer Weenie's question if TSR had ever commented on the Green Age "gods". If someone doesn't like the "official" representation, he is of course to change what he dislikes.
My Dark Sun for example is much more "Mad Max"-like, with remnants of an old civilization, complete with large portions of the land destroyed by melt downs of power plants.
If my comment did give the impression that I think that everyone has to follow the "official" storyline and a DM's own ideas should not deviate, I am sorry. I did not intend that.
We get that, I think.
FWIW, I'm definitely not stuck up on "official". And I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I dislike the idea presented in Dregoth Ascending because the document is from athas.org and not from TSR. I dislike it, regardless of who wrote it, because I want Athas, IMC, to have had gods. After I heard athas.org's answer to my original question, I simply said I didn't like it, and asked if there had been a second opinion (TSR's). Simple as that.
FWIW, I generally do like what athas.org did with DS3 (though there are certain points ... half-giant, templars, but never mind), and I'd rather consider the site "official" than what we saw in Dragon/Dungeon. Just like I prefer the PS3E info found on planewalker.com to the Planar Handbook.
I hope this clears things up.
"officially" Athas never had and still doesn't have Gods. it is a place ruled by elements. in the terms of Planescape cosmology it could be said that Athas is a crystal sphere that is deeply aligned with the inner planes (as some have mentioned previously). thus, the Astral conduits necessary for the channeling of divine energies do not reach Athas - partly because of it's proximity to the inner planes and partly because of the phenomenon known as "The Gray". according to the adventure "Dregoth Ascending" it IS possible to draw those Astral conduits to Athas, thereby shifting the sphere closer to the Outer Planes of belief. the one thing in the "Dregoth Ascending" adventures that i feel is overlooked is the unintended consequence of casting a spell of that magnitude. sure, Dregoth would become a God, but why JUST him? would it be just him? it certainly creates a lot of questions...some that those who are avid fans of the setting may not like (and feel that it would ruin the setting as a whole).
what effect this would have on the planet and the sphere as a whole is debatable (and i'm sure the Guvners HAVE BEEN debating it for ages). would the old Green Age gods return? would powerful PC's and NPC's suddenly surge with divine power as conduits of faith poured forth the energies of belief? would the elements lose their foothold? would Rajaat become a God too and be freed from his prison? how would it affect the other planes? would more portals to Athas open up in Sigil? the world itself would be ripe for merchants to sell their planar wares. what about the blood war? what about other Gods in other pantheons? suddenly Athas is a new place to push belief and establish a foothold. all interesting questions, and all great as possible campaign elements in terms of the PLANESCAPE setting. though hardly necessary or vital to the DARK SUN setting.
thus, "unofficially" Athas is whatever people want it to be so it's cosmology is up to the individual and there are plenty of people who have different slants on it's origins, placement, etc. some prefer that Athas be a stand-alone world, unconnected to the old TSR multi-dimensional view of the universe. others like that way and choose to intigrate it in a way they enjoy and makes the gaming fun. the only limit is really one's own imagination. ;)
Perhaps the reason that gods never go to the Athas is because it is the territory of the Elemental lords, and it is forbidden for Gods to meddle in the elemental war going on on athas. Sigil is protected from and forbidden for gods to enter, perhaps Athas has a similar but opposite function. One being the city of doors and the other, the closed world.
Following this line of reason:
Sigil exists at the confluence of the Outerplanes, and is a staging ground for the ultimate ideological war, in which only mortals are allowed to fight.
Athas exsists at the confluence of the Innerplanes, and is a staging ground for the ultimate elemental war, in which again only mortals are allowed to fight.
There is even a similarity between the Gods of the Outerplanes gaining their power from mortal belief and the Elemental lords gaining their power from the purity and strength of their elements representation on athas.
Which reminds me the Sensates would have a hell of a time with the 'psionic love cactus' as my friend calls it... it would certainly be the bane of their faction... ;)
>8)
If you are going to try to find a place for Athas in the larger multiverse, I think the explaination of it being at the confluence of the inner planes is quite suitable. If it can easily be accessed from the inner planes but is nearly impossible to get to from the outerplanes that only makes sense. The elemental war being raged on Athas has a very strong tie in to the idea that it is a world exsisting within the elemental planes, as well.
Perhaps the reason that gods never go to the Athas is because it is the territory of the Elemental lords, and it is forbidden for Gods to meddle in the elemental war going on on athas. Sigil is protected from and forbidden for gods to enter, perhaps Athas has a similar but opposite function. One being the city of doors and the other, the closed world.
Following this line of reason:
Sigil exists at the confluence of the Outerplanes, and is a staging ground for the ultimate ideological war, in which only mortals are allowed to fight.
Athas exsists at the confluence of the Innerplanes, and is a staging ground for the ultimate elemental war, in which again only mortals are allowed to fight.
There is even a similarity between the Gods of the Outerplanes gaining their power from mortal belief and the Elemental lords gaining their power from the purity and strength of their elements representation on athas.
I likey. I hope you don't mind, but I have totally stolen your idea, and fully plan to implement it in my Homebrew Campaign Multiverse (otherwise known as my H.C.M, or Huge Convoluted Mess
).I've written a short piece on the Shadow Plane functioning as kind of a relativist organizer. I've mentioned Athas as a world that denies the rest of the multiverse, making it hard for the rest of the multiverse to acknowledge Athas.
http://geocities.com/domrot78/shaplane.html
I likey. I hope you don't mind, but I have totally stolen your idea, and fully plan to implement it in my Homebrew Campaign Multiverse (otherwise known as my H.C.M, or Huge Convoluted Mess
Sounds great to me :D , I probably won't ever use it so consider it yours. I give you full rights to the idea. Do with it what you will ;)