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Raistlin's income?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
caeruleus
Aug 31, 2005 2:15:23 When Raistlin was master of the tower at Palanthas, he conducted many experiments which I imagine would have cost money. I was wondering where he would have gotten his money from. Did the tower come with huge vaults filled with it? Did he have some other source of income? Since no book that I know of says anything about this, then there's really no "right" answer, but I'm curious about whether anyone's thought of this, or what possible answers there might be.

The same question could be asked of the wizards at the tower at Wayreth, but being a large organization with many members it would make sense if each contributed a little or some such thing, with wealthier members making larger donations, students paying for lessons, some wizards selling magic items with some profits going to the tower, etc, etc.
#2
the_narrator
Aug 31, 2005 13:30:52 honestly, i don't think raistlin could ever want for money. i imagine anything he could have needed could have been summoned by him. i mean, the guy had the spirit of the most powerful mage ever to live in him, i doubt he had problems with banks.
#3
caeruleus
Aug 31, 2005 14:16:12
honestly, i don't think raistlin could ever want for money. i imagine anything he could have needed could have been summoned by him. i mean, the guy had the spirit of the most powerful mage ever to live in him, i doubt he had problems with banks.

That's definitely the answer I'd give if I were just going with the story. But if we put it into the context of the game, you can't really summon unlimited sums of money. Now sure, in previous editions of the game, it was standard to see Raistlin as having broken many rules (eg, having access to all spells, even though Black Robes weren't able to cast from all schools, being able to advance to 20th level and stay on Krynn when there was that 1e rule about an 18th level maximum, etc), but I'm not sure if they're gonna go with this as canon when his stats are published (as I assume they will be in Legends of the Twins). Anyway, as I said, I'm just wondering if anyone can spin a story that's consistent with D&D rules and still makes sense of the character we know from the novels.
#4
cam_banks
Aug 31, 2005 14:23:15
Anyway, as I said, I'm just wondering if anyone can spin a story that's consistent with D&D rules and still makes sense of the character we know from the novels.

I think we can take a prety good stab at it.

Cheers,
Cam
#5
clarkvalentine
Aug 31, 2005 15:09:17
Anyway, as I said, I'm just wondering if anyone can spin a story that's consistent with D&D rules and still makes sense of the character we know from the novels.

Raistlin had a Santa Claus GM. ;)
#6
greylord
Aug 31, 2005 15:19:36 Well, in 3.5...it's simple. There's that little table which points out how much treasure a player is supposed to have at each level. Raistlin's Player just told the DM about that and insisted he get the money.

In older editions it is possible that Raistlin adventured in his spellcasting more than what we hear about in Legends, and hence was able to collect new spells, knowledge, along with treasure.

#7
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2005 16:50:05 He took what he wanted from where he had to get it, and nobody was going to tell him not too.
#8
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2005 19:12:49
honestly, i don't think raistlin could ever want for money. i imagine anything he could have needed could have been summoned by him. i mean, the guy had the spirit of the most powerful mage ever to live in him, i doubt he had problems with banks.

Even though Raistling had the spirit of the most powerful being in him, Ariakas was even more powerful than the combined strength of Raistlin and Fistandantilus. Ariakas just got caught off guard during the Highlord conclave.
#9
Prof._Pacali
Aug 31, 2005 20:03:57 Why not just assume he had a side job creating magic items, and selling them at ridiculously inflated prices. As for where he got the original money to create said items, why not assume he embezzled from the treasury of the Dragon Highlords.

Alternatively, he raised money by being the entertainment at weddings and bar mitzvahs.
#10
cam_banks
Aug 31, 2005 21:52:14
Even though Raistling had the spirit of the most powerful being in him, Ariakas was even more powerful than the combined strength of Raistlin and Fistandantilus. Ariakas just got caught off guard during the Highlord conclave.

No, he wasn't. I mean, he was a scary guy and all, but Raistlin and Fistandantilus together wouldn't have had much trouble with Ariakas.

Cheers,
Cam
#11
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2005 22:41:05 I think he probably earned his fortune through smart investing. With the right financial advisor, you'd be surprised what you can do.

Maybe he bought stock in the Knights of Solamnia while they were still down and out.
#12
zombiegleemax
Aug 31, 2005 23:35:27 You know it's quite possible that Raistlin did sell off some of the items in the Tower of Palanthas. After all, we do know that Raisltin doesn't really believe in magical items himself, as he considers them for weaklings. There might also have been some items in there that were only useful to White and Red robes that he decided to get rid of.

-Angus
#13
zombiegleemax
Sep 01, 2005 6:10:32 I remember Raistlin eating some exotic fruits, wears nice black silk robe, and things like that. He had some luxure things in his life.

I'm sure he made deals with certain people - Rich and powerful! Deals involving Spells, magical items, information...etc. He is powerful enough, that with his resources you can make REALLY good money just doing few deals.

Say, Minotaur Emperor wants to find some long lost artifact of Sargonnas. Tower of Palanthas is contacted, when everything else has failed. Raistlin searches trough time/space and finds about this artifact. Then he gives Emperor his price for this information - say half-million steel. Would Emperor bay that? Probably. And now he has half-million steel in gems, jewerly...etc. transported safely by magic to tower.
#14
zombiegleemax
Sep 03, 2005 11:40:13 Things a black wizard can do...

Lie, cheat, steal, murder, betray, back stab someone (metaphorically and literally i guess if it took their fancy) and a whole array of other nasty things that generally make a person evil.

Having said that, true, its the easy way out of an interesting "story enriched" answer to "hey where did all this money come from" but being both high level AND particularly a right bastard to those whom he didnt have sympathy or empathy towards gives him a little more leeverage and room to aquire money in a variety of ways.

But really, theres too many ways he could have done it for us to really know. Summon demonic servants to rob and pillage, create "fools gold" to make people think they had money given to them or even just told them "give it to me now" with the usual threat of immense power to kill anyone who got in his way.

Who knows, personally I think the "mystery" of not knowing how he got money, or ANYTHING ELSE for that matter is what makes it so great. What is behind that black tower of his, where did he get all that steel coinage to curse the dwarves with so they wouldnt betray him (I cant remember which book thats in), all these things we dont know but can speculate, its the BEST thing about him.

You just dont know. Isnt that cool?

Anywho, thats my two cents worth
#15
the_narrator
Sep 04, 2005 17:31:00 i didn't mean he summoned money, i meant he had the ability to summon anything he needed, be it materials for experiments, exoitc fruits, or lavish velevet robes. anything the man could ever want for is either able to be recreated or otherwise acquired through magic. or, ya know, the tower of palanthas could have a giant vault of money. i could see the wizards being far more concerned with spell books and artifacts than the simple money in their tower.
#16
aliothefool
Sep 04, 2005 19:07:07 If I remember correctly, Raistlin did have some exotic Taladian fruit in the tower at one point, IIRC in Legends. Also, IIRC, he had picked it himself. I tend to agree with the_narrator for the most part too. He could probably "summon" common items like robes. As far as materials, Raist had a knack for locating rare plants and such. Chances are, he spent more energy "magiking" himself around the planet to gather as much of what he needed as he could, than creating things.

I would venture to risk a guess that more of his income generating will be revealed in the Dark Chronicles book centered on him. Who knows? Maybe the Dark Queen herself gave him a ton of loot to spend before he backstabbed her at the end of The War of the Lance. As Ferrum_Angel said, he could have taken that money and had a nice return on investment!
#17
kalanth
Sep 04, 2005 22:42:38 I'll put it to you this way, if Raistlin comes to me and says he needs something, I am pretty sure Raistlin would have some nice ranks in Intimidation there and I would quiver in my boots cause of who he was. My only response would be, "Here, on the house. . . .Tell people about my shop. . . If you want. . . "

Done. Raistlin can have whatever the heck he wants from me, because he is one scarry mo-fo.
#18
zombiegleemax
Sep 04, 2005 23:18:36
No, he wasn't. I mean, he was a scary guy and all, but Raistlin and Fistandantilus together wouldn't have had much trouble with Ariakas.

Cheers,
Cam

Gotta disagree with that. Raistlin said it himself that Tanis helped him get rid of the one person on Krynn whom could have bested him. Whether that was in leiu of his magical prowess or his position as Dragon emperor, perhaps Raist knew that if Ariakas was able to direct the full might of the Drfagon Army's against him he would lose, I don't know.
#19
cam_banks
Sep 05, 2005 7:17:58
Gotta disagree with that. Raistlin said it himself that Tanis helped him get rid of the one person on Krynn whom could have bested him. Whether that was in leiu of his magical prowess or his position as Dragon emperor, perhaps Raist knew that if Ariakas was able to direct the full might of the Drfagon Army's against him he would lose, I don't know.

So you don't think Raistlin and Fistandantilus together could have done it if Raistlin and Tanis could? I find that a little strange.

Cheers,
Cam
#20
caeruleus
Sep 05, 2005 12:05:58
So you don't think Raistlin and Fistandantilus together could have done it if Raistlin and Tanis could? I find that a little strange.

Cheers,
Cam

Right, let's be clear on whether we're talking about Raistlin and Fistandantilus against Ariakas, or just Raistlin against Ariakas.

Also keep in mind that at the end of Chronicles, Raistlin was powerful but not at the height of his powers.
#21
zombiegleemax
Sep 06, 2005 11:55:40 At the end of DoSD Raistlin used Tanis to take out Arakias because Tanis was in the right place at the right time. If you remember, Raistlin was visible to Tanis when nobody else seemed to be able to see him, and he dispelled the magical shield quite easily so Tanis could strike.

From what Raistlin told Tanis, Arakias was the only person on Krynn who COULD have bested him. At this time Fisty was still just a presence.

Now at the beginning of the Legends, Raistlin was the undisputed master of magic on Krynn, no one could match him, not even Lord Soth who gave Arakias pause.

Once Raistlin traveled back in time, Nothing could stop him, not even a god. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 caeruleus Aug 31, 2005 2:15:23	When Raistlin was master of the tower at Palanthas, he conducted many experiments which I imagine would have cost money. I was wondering where he would have gotten his money from. Did the tower come with huge vaults filled with it? Did he have some other source of income? Since no book that I know of says anything about this, then there's really no "right" answer, but I'm curious about whether anyone's thought of this, or what possible answers there might be. The same question could be asked of the wizards at the tower at Wayreth, but being a large organization with many members it would make sense if each contributed a little or some such thing, with wealthier members making larger donations, students paying for lessons, some wizards selling magic items with some profits going to the tower, etc, etc.
#2 the_narrator Aug 31, 2005 13:30:52	honestly, i don't think raistlin could ever want for money. i imagine anything he could have needed could have been summoned by him. i mean, the guy had the spirit of the most powerful mage ever to live in him, i doubt he had problems with banks.
#3 caeruleus Aug 31, 2005 14:16:12	honestly, i don't think raistlin could ever want for money. i imagine anything he could have needed could have been summoned by him. i mean, the guy had the spirit of the most powerful mage ever to live in him, i doubt he had problems with banks. That's definitely the answer I'd give if I were just going with the story. But if we put it into the context of the game, you can't really summon unlimited sums of money. Now sure, in previous editions of the game, it was standard to see Raistlin as having broken many rules (eg, having access to all spells, even though Black Robes weren't able to cast from all schools, being able to advance to 20th level and stay on Krynn when there was that 1e rule about an 18th level maximum, etc), but I'm not sure if they're gonna go with this as canon when his stats are published (as I assume they will be in Legends of the Twins). Anyway, as I said, I'm just wondering if anyone can spin a story that's consistent with D&D rules and still makes sense of the character we know from the novels.
#4 cam_banks Aug 31, 2005 14:23:15	Anyway, as I said, I'm just wondering if anyone can spin a story that's consistent with D&D rules and still makes sense of the character we know from the novels. I think we can take a prety good stab at it. Cheers, Cam
#5 clarkvalentine Aug 31, 2005 15:09:17	Anyway, as I said, I'm just wondering if anyone can spin a story that's consistent with D&D rules and still makes sense of the character we know from the novels. Raistlin had a Santa Claus GM. ;)
#6 greylord Aug 31, 2005 15:19:36	Well, in 3.5...it's simple. There's that little table which points out how much treasure a player is supposed to have at each level. Raistlin's Player just told the DM about that and insisted he get the money. In older editions it is possible that Raistlin adventured in his spellcasting more than what we hear about in Legends, and hence was able to collect new spells, knowledge, along with treasure.
#7 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2005 16:50:05	He took what he wanted from where he had to get it, and nobody was going to tell him not too.
#8 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2005 19:12:49	honestly, i don't think raistlin could ever want for money. i imagine anything he could have needed could have been summoned by him. i mean, the guy had the spirit of the most powerful mage ever to live in him, i doubt he had problems with banks. Even though Raistling had the spirit of the most powerful being in him, Ariakas was even more powerful than the combined strength of Raistlin and Fistandantilus. Ariakas just got caught off guard during the Highlord conclave.
#9 Prof._Pacali Aug 31, 2005 20:03:57	Why not just assume he had a side job creating magic items, and selling them at ridiculously inflated prices. As for where he got the original money to create said items, why not assume he embezzled from the treasury of the Dragon Highlords. Alternatively, he raised money by being the entertainment at weddings and bar mitzvahs.
#10 cam_banks Aug 31, 2005 21:52:14	Even though Raistling had the spirit of the most powerful being in him, Ariakas was even more powerful than the combined strength of Raistlin and Fistandantilus. Ariakas just got caught off guard during the Highlord conclave. No, he wasn't. I mean, he was a scary guy and all, but Raistlin and Fistandantilus together wouldn't have had much trouble with Ariakas. Cheers, Cam
#11 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2005 22:41:05	I think he probably earned his fortune through smart investing. With the right financial advisor, you'd be surprised what you can do. Maybe he bought stock in the Knights of Solamnia while they were still down and out.
#12 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2005 23:35:27	You know it's quite possible that Raistlin did sell off some of the items in the Tower of Palanthas. After all, we do know that Raisltin doesn't really believe in magical items himself, as he considers them for weaklings. There might also have been some items in there that were only useful to White and Red robes that he decided to get rid of. -Angus
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 01, 2005 6:10:32	I remember Raistlin eating some exotic fruits, wears nice black silk robe, and things like that. He had some luxure things in his life. I'm sure he made deals with certain people - Rich and powerful! Deals involving Spells, magical items, information...etc. He is powerful enough, that with his resources you can make REALLY good money just doing few deals. Say, Minotaur Emperor wants to find some long lost artifact of Sargonnas. Tower of Palanthas is contacted, when everything else has failed. Raistlin searches trough time/space and finds about this artifact. Then he gives Emperor his price for this information - say half-million steel. Would Emperor bay that? Probably. And now he has half-million steel in gems, jewerly...etc. transported safely by magic to tower.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 03, 2005 11:40:13	Things a black wizard can do... Lie, cheat, steal, murder, betray, back stab someone (metaphorically and literally i guess if it took their fancy) and a whole array of other nasty things that generally make a person evil. Having said that, true, its the easy way out of an interesting "story enriched" answer to "hey where did all this money come from" but being both high level AND particularly a right bastard to those whom he didnt have sympathy or empathy towards gives him a little more leeverage and room to aquire money in a variety of ways. But really, theres too many ways he could have done it for us to really know. Summon demonic servants to rob and pillage, create "fools gold" to make people think they had money given to them or even just told them "give it to me now" with the usual threat of immense power to kill anyone who got in his way. Who knows, personally I think the "mystery" of not knowing how he got money, or ANYTHING ELSE for that matter is what makes it so great. What is behind that black tower of his, where did he get all that steel coinage to curse the dwarves with so they wouldnt betray him (I cant remember which book thats in), all these things we dont know but can speculate, its the BEST thing about him. You just dont know. Isnt that cool? Anywho, thats my two cents worth
#15 the_narrator Sep 04, 2005 17:31:00	i didn't mean he summoned money, i meant he had the ability to summon anything he needed, be it materials for experiments, exoitc fruits, or lavish velevet robes. anything the man could ever want for is either able to be recreated or otherwise acquired through magic. or, ya know, the tower of palanthas could have a giant vault of money. i could see the wizards being far more concerned with spell books and artifacts than the simple money in their tower.
#16 aliothefool Sep 04, 2005 19:07:07	If I remember correctly, Raistlin did have some exotic Taladian fruit in the tower at one point, IIRC in Legends. Also, IIRC, he had picked it himself. I tend to agree with the_narrator for the most part too. He could probably "summon" common items like robes. As far as materials, Raist had a knack for locating rare plants and such. Chances are, he spent more energy "magiking" himself around the planet to gather as much of what he needed as he could, than creating things. I would venture to risk a guess that more of his income generating will be revealed in the Dark Chronicles book centered on him. Who knows? Maybe the Dark Queen herself gave him a ton of loot to spend before he backstabbed her at the end of The War of the Lance. As Ferrum_Angel said, he could have taken that money and had a nice return on investment!
#17 kalanth Sep 04, 2005 22:42:38	I'll put it to you this way, if Raistlin comes to me and says he needs something, I am pretty sure Raistlin would have some nice ranks in Intimidation there and I would quiver in my boots cause of who he was. My only response would be, "Here, on the house. . . .Tell people about my shop. . . If you want. . . " Done. Raistlin can have whatever the heck he wants from me, because he is one scarry mo-fo.
#18 zombiegleemax Sep 04, 2005 23:18:36	No, he wasn't. I mean, he was a scary guy and all, but Raistlin and Fistandantilus together wouldn't have had much trouble with Ariakas. Cheers, Cam Gotta disagree with that. Raistlin said it himself that Tanis helped him get rid of the one person on Krynn whom could have bested him. Whether that was in leiu of his magical prowess or his position as Dragon emperor, perhaps Raist knew that if Ariakas was able to direct the full might of the Drfagon Army's against him he would lose, I don't know.
#19 cam_banks Sep 05, 2005 7:17:58	Gotta disagree with that. Raistlin said it himself that Tanis helped him get rid of the one person on Krynn whom could have bested him. Whether that was in leiu of his magical prowess or his position as Dragon emperor, perhaps Raist knew that if Ariakas was able to direct the full might of the Drfagon Army's against him he would lose, I don't know. So you don't think Raistlin and Fistandantilus together could have done it if Raistlin and Tanis could? I find that a little strange. Cheers, Cam
#20 caeruleus Sep 05, 2005 12:05:58	So you don't think Raistlin and Fistandantilus together could have done it if Raistlin and Tanis could? I find that a little strange. Cheers, Cam Right, let's be clear on whether we're talking about Raistlin and Fistandantilus against Ariakas, or just Raistlin against Ariakas. Also keep in mind that at the end of Chronicles, Raistlin was powerful but not at the height of his powers.
#21 zombiegleemax Sep 06, 2005 11:55:40	At the end of DoSD Raistlin used Tanis to take out Arakias because Tanis was in the right place at the right time. If you remember, Raistlin was visible to Tanis when nobody else seemed to be able to see him, and he dispelled the magical shield quite easily so Tanis could strike. From what Raistlin told Tanis, Arakias was the only person on Krynn who COULD have bested him. At this time Fisty was still just a presence. Now at the beginning of the Legends, Raistlin was the undisputed master of magic on Krynn, no one could match him, not even Lord Soth who gave Arakias pause. Once Raistlin traveled back in time, Nothing could stop him, not even a god. ;)