It would make more sense to have the sorcerer use Intelligence as his spellcasting stat. And further, to fit that studious flavor, they should have the same class skills as wizards.
Thoughts?
I suggest that Intelligence should be used to determine maximum spell level and Charisma for other purposes. Similarly, mystics should use Wisdom for maximum spell level and Charisma for other purposes.
I was going to suggest much the same. Int for max spell level, Cha for the save DC vs. the spells. Seems a little clunky using two stats like that, but I've seen the same thing used elsewhere in D&D.
I was going to suggest much the same. Int for max spell level, Cha for the save DC vs. the spells. Seems a little clunky using two stats like that, but I've seen the same thing used elsewhere in D&D.
It's used in cases where the class needs to be balanced out in some way. The favored soul has it, for example, but then the favored soul has all good saves and is pretty tough. Requiring the mystic and the sorcerer to use two ability scores for spellcasting is going to make them less favorable than they already are.
Intelligence covers the fact that the 5th Age sorcerers were able to achieve good ranks in Spellcraft, Knowledge (arcana), and other skills. It really had little to do with how good they were at casting spells, as it turned out - Academy sorcerers benefited the most from their socialization and sharing of ideas, not because they spent hours sitting in front of books. It really does require the sorcerer to have a good grasp on their own self-worth and confidence in their ability to shape the primal magic of the world, which is what Charisma represents.
SAGA used Reason because sorcerers were a replacement for AD&D mages, much as mystics were a replacement for AD&D clerics. Now that we're using 3.5 and the specifics of sorcery and mysticism have been made more clear, the current approach is more suited.
Cheers,
Cam
It really had little to do with how good they were at casting spells, as it turned out - Academy sorcerers benefited the most from their socialization and sharing of ideas, not because they spent hours sitting in front of books. It really does require the sorcerer to have a good grasp on their own self-worth and confidence in their ability to shape the primal magic of the world, which is what Charisma represents.
Okay, I like that. That explination is a pretty good one.
I don't suppose you've got something in there for why Mystics use Wisdom instead of Charisma, do you? Because, of the two, I would have though mysticism would have been more Charisma based than sorcery, personally.
I don't suppose you've got something in there for why Mystics use Wisdom instead of Charisma, do you?
*pulls out of the air* Mystics need to be keenly aware of the world and their place in it. As divine casters they need an almost reverential relationship to their source of power, as well as a strong will, a centered heart, and a clear mind. To me, that's Wisdom.
Intelligence represents training and book learning.
Wisdom represents perception and common sense.
Charisma represents imposing your will and personality on the wider world.
So I understand sorcery using Charisma. By force of will, you impose your will upon the chaotic elemental energies of Krynn. I can buy Wisdom as the stat necessary for mysticism, if it stemmed from some sort of deeper understanding or self awareness.
However, since the mystic essentially gains his power through raw belief fueled by the much the same chaotic energies as sorcery however, wisdom as the modifier makes absolutely no sense. Raw belief creating miracles using raw divine energy is Charisma, not Wisdom. This is after all, why clerics use Charisma to turn undead, since they are using (in core D&D) raw energy from the positive energy plane.
*pulls out of the air* Mystics need to be keenly aware of the world and their place in it. As divine casters they need an almost reverential relationship to their source of power, as well as a strong will, a centered heart, and a clear mind. To me, that's Wisdom.
I don't think they need a reverention relationship with their source of power. They do need a centered heart and clear mind, and most importantly, they need to understand their self worth. Their power comes from within, it is the power of the spiritual self. The focus on the self (not necessarily selfish, although evil mystics are truly a self serving evil, I think) and the importance and understanding that I can do great things, that the gods have created us in such a way that I can tap into the creation magic through myself, not through my surroundings or through any sort of devotion, is what sets the mystic apart. And to me, that screams Charisma...not Wisdom. (EDIT: although I now see that Terry disagrees awe well...maybe my understanding of the six Ability scores needs tweaking, LOL!)
That, and sorcery and mysticism are supposedly very closely linked, it'd make more sense to make them both Charisma.
I think I know how mysticism remained Wisdom while sorcery became Charisma...but a good "in world" explination would not go amiss.
I don't understand why Mystics use Wisdom instead of Charisma, since if they did use Charisma, all the Ambient users (save the Assassin) would use Charisma. Of course, I felt there were too many casters that used Wisdom as the primary score to begin with, the Mystic only served to aggravate me.
Then again, now that I think about it, I wish that all the Arcane spellcasters used Intelligence, and all the Divine spellcasters used Wisdom. It would serve to simplify things and make sense in a lot of ways.
And to me, that screams Charisma...not Wisodm.
To me, that descritpion screams sorcery, not mysticism. But I never got into Saga, so I'm definitely looking at this purely through a 3.5 ed. lens.
And I did just pull it out of the air. ;)
Academy sorcerers benefited the most from their socialization and sharing of ideas, not because they spent hours sitting in front of books.
Yes. As an academic in the real world, I can also tell you that it's one's charisma that determines success, not intelligence. So what you say makes sense... but only to a point. The "success" that this grants is getting a high paying job and renown in the field, not the ability to do good quality work. So basing spellcasting ability on Charisma doesn't quite work.
Also, sharing ideas with others benefits all academic fields, so if your argument worked for the sorcerer, it would imply the same about the wizard.
The sorcerer in the core rules has an innate talent for magic. That's not the case for the sorcerer in Dragonlance; they require study, just as wizards do.
The sorcerer in the core rules has an innate talent for magic. That's not the case for the sorcerer in Dragonlance; they require study, just as wizards do.
As I said, that was what was initially thought, but it did eventuate that what was most useful was seeing other people trying things out, getting the confidence to do the same, and then applying it. Sorcery is more of an art, a willworking, than an academic discipline. Raw intelligence really didn't help much at all. It required practice, not study, and that lead to an assurance that one could do it if one had the ability.
Cheers,
Cam
That, and sorcery and mysticism are supposedly very closely linked, it'd make more sense to make them both Charisma.
Again, by this reasoning, since (in the world of Dragonlance) both clerical and wizardly magic comes from the gods, they should also use the same stat. But the stat you use depends on how you approach the magic, not on the source of that magic.
To me, that descritpion screams sorcery, not mysticism. But I never got into Saga, so I'm definitely looking at this purely through a 3.5 ed. lens.
Well, it's both actually. But there's a difference.
The difference was that in SAGA, mysticism came from within and sorcery came from without.
Essentially, there were two remaining magicks on Krynn. One was the primordial creation magic that was used to create the world. This was essentially your elemental magic and the magic from the other planes of existance that were all used to create the material plane of Krynn.
The other was the magic of the spirits and souls themselves. It must have been magic that came from the elemental planes originally (as it all originated there) but it was changed by Reorx's anvil and hammer (as it created the stars...which were then battled over during the All Saint's War). These stars, or soon to be souls of mortals, were the second magic that was still left on Krynn. Coming from the same stuff as the creation magic, but changed over the eons as mortals grew and matured, their souls grew and matured and the magic became something different.
Anyway, so the sorcerer used his will to control the energies around him that were still inherent in Krynn and in his surroundings. The mystic looked within to control the energies of the soul and other souls.
Maybe a better way of saying it would be sorcerers brought the energy to them, mystics let the energy out.
As I said, that was what was initially thought, but it did eventuate that what was most useful was seeing other people trying things out, getting the confidence to do the same, and then applying it. Sorcery is more of an art, a willworking, than an academic discipline. Raw intelligence really didn't help much at all. It required practice, not study, and that lead to an assurance that one could do it if one had the ability.
Cheers,
Cam
I see, so you're saying that the idea is that this is how sorcery actually worked, while wizardry did not work this way, as a matter of empirical fact. Okay, that story makes sense of it.
Nonetheless, I do like the idea of sorcerers using Intelligence. :D
Anyway, so the sorcerer used his will to control the energies around him that were still inherent in Krynn and in his surroundings. The mystic looked within to control the energies of the soul and other souls.
We had to do a lot of thinking and re-thinking when it came to wild magic for Dragonlance 3e, as you probably remember! The big revelations of Dragons of a Vanished Moon also came with more revelations later on, and still further changes were introduced by which we had to explain things in a certain way. There was never any choice in how the sorcerer was going to work post-War of Souls, for instance, so the theory behind all of this had to justify that class as-is.
I think we did a fairly good job of it. The notion of mysticism as "coming from within" and drawing on a "divine spark" had to be married to the idea that mysticism was just another form of ambient magic given access to mortals by Chaos, so it became the ambient living energy of the world (through the most direct route - the mystic's own soul) and sorcery became the ambient elemental or creative energy of the world.
Obviously, it wouldn't break the game a lot to switch ability scores around for these casters. But, Wisdom is what we have for mystics, and Wisdom is the basis for the theory of how mysticism works now, so we go with that.
Cheers,
Cam
Again, by this reasoning, since (in the world of Dragonlance) both clerical and wizardly magic comes from the gods, they should also use the same stat. But the stat you use depends on how you approach the magic, not on the source of that magic.
Not really...because a wizard does not get his spells in the same way as a cleric does.
A cleric, through devotion, prays and asks to be given spells.
You can pray all you want to Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari...they won't just give you the spells. They will help he who helps himself, as the saying goes.
For wizardry, one has to study the magic, learn how it works, and memorize all the little intricacies of the spell. For clerical magic, the spells are just given to the cleric.One is through study, one is through devotion.
Sorcery and mysticism, though, are a lot more related in their application than wizardry and cleric...ry. (hmm...clerics need a name for their magic
)(Sorry, it took a while to get to my point...point is clerical magic and wizardly magic are very different and are applied, both in learning and in casting, differently. Where as sorcery and mysticism are different as well, their application, both in learning and in casting, are very similar...there's just the one little difference, one attracts the energies to the caster and one lets the energies spring forth from the caster.)
Not really...because a wizard does not get his spells in the same way as a cleric does.
A cleric, through devotion, prays and asks to be given spells.
That's exactly what I said. You quoted me saying it, and now I'll quote myself:
But the stat you use depends on how you approach the magic, not on the source of that magic.
I was saying what followed from your argument about sorcerers and mystics. But, as I said, how you approach the magic is what makes the difference.
I don't think they need a reverention relationship with their source of power. They do need a centered heart and clear mind, and most importantly, they need to understand their self worth. Their power comes from within, it is the power of the spiritual self.
It is no secret that this is how I wish mysticism was being handled, and that I hate, absolutely hate, the idea that it is simply divine energy floating around. It is a very good way to suck all that is mystical out of mysticism, and thus make it insufferably boring.
It would be much more interesting to make it the deification of mortals, with mystics playing the role of hero gods. This is after all the Age of Mortals, and Chaos has been destroyed in the Chaos War. This is the final age before the final cataclysm. All these things make it the right time for humanity to step into their role as successors to the gods.
But simply having it "ambient" divine energy? Too bland for me to stomach.
(EDIT: although I now see that Terry disagrees awe well...maybe my understanding of the six Ability scores needs tweaking, LOL!)
I don't see how. We both think that if it is power from within it is Wisdom, and power from without it is Charisma.
I have yet to see an explanation of how wisdom plays any role whatsoever, since mysticism can be based on wisdom's opposite, namely delusion.
I was saying what followed from your argument about sorcerers and mystics. But, as I said, how you approach the magic is what makes the difference.
And I'm saying that I agree. What we disagree on is that sorcery and mysticism are approached the same way. I think they are. Well, correction...they are approached from opposite ends, but the mechanics of how they approach/use/manipulate/cast it are the same.
Sorcery and mysticism, though, are a lot more related in their application than wizardry and cleric...ry. (hmm...clerics need a name for their magic
Theurgy.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Theurgy
There was an arguement about this a few years ago. I argued that clerical magic needed its own term, so we would have Thaumaturgy (wizards), theurgy (clerics), mysticism (mystics) and sorcery (sorcerers).
Everyone thought I was smoking the crack pipe back then. ;)
The focus on the self (not necessarily selfish, although evil mystics are truly a self serving evil, I think) and the importance and understanding that I can do great things, that the gods have created us in such a way that I can tap into the creation magic through myself, not through my surroundings or through any sort of devotion, is what sets the mystic apart. And to me, that screams Charisma...not Wisdom. (EDIT: although I now see that Terry disagrees awe well...maybe my understanding of the six Ability scores needs tweaking, LOL!)
To me, what you're describing sounds a bit like a combination of Wisdom and Charisma. You have to have that perception within yourself to understand the power of mysticism (Wisdom for spell level you can cast and maybe bonus spells), but a strength of personality to make this manifest (Cha for the save DC).
That, and sorcery and mysticism are supposedly very closely linked, it'd make more sense to make them both Charisma.
As I mentioned above, you can do the dual-stat thing for spells. Int and Wis respectfully might determine the level of spells you can tap into, but in both cases, Charisma can be used for the save DC. That should go along the themes you describe to a degree.
Personally, I prefer to have one stat for spells and not two. I feel this keeps it a bit neater. But, to each their own.
Here's how I like to look at spellcasters and ability scores in 3e.
Intelligence: These are your smart spellcasters. They approach spells from an intellectual perspective. This requires study and a scientific approach.
Wisdom: These are your faith-based spellcasters. This can be expressed in any number of ways, whether towards the gods or looking within. The common theme, though, is faith.
Charisma: These are your natural talents, whether it be from some arcane heritage or just a natural connection to magic. They don't have any training; they just have a knack for the magic.
There's any number of ways of tackling this. Just pick the ability score that fits your mind's eye of how ambient magic works and run with it.
There was an arguement about this a few years ago. I argued that clerical magic needed its own term, so we would have Thaumaturgy (wizards), theurgy (clerics), mysticism (mystics) and sorcery (sorcerers).
When Cam, Andre', and I were working on magic rules for the DLA3e project back in the day, I had also noticed that clerical magic seemed to be the odd duck out not having a name. Every time I tried to think of one, it landed up being a sphere of mysticism. :P What we settled on was Devotion, though this never became canon.
Everyone thought I was smoking the crack pipe back then. ;)
We still do. ;)