Has anyone developed a working theory on the diffusion of spells?
Do wizard from across the Flaneass gather to exchange their latest workings or is dissemination on an individual to individual basis?
Are new spells common or the rare preserve of the greatest wizards of the world - like the many developed by Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight?
Are spells subject to fads? A wizard develops a new spell and within months / years it is taught in every magical college only to be forgotten in a couple more years.
Are some of the ubiquitous spells (e.g. magic missle, invisibility, fireball) virtually identical to spells the ancient Suel / Baklunes used, or would Serten not recognize a single spell in use c. 590 CY?
Are spells like nuclear weapons? Once a wizard is known to have developed some form of spell the race is on for others to reverse engineer said spell.
Do Aerdy wizards learn roughly the same spells as Velverdyva wizards, or are spell lists regionally differentiated?
From memory, I cannot think of a spell named after a dead wizard (other than those wiped out in late 584). Is it common to name the spell after the designing wizard during his life, but to drop the wizard's name after death?
Given 3.5 Sorcerers, how is it that Mordenkainen spent all that hard work designing a Faithful Hound, specifically regulating the magical incarnations that must be made to bring it into being, and within at most a couple decades Sorcerers are casting it willy-nilly?
What about the Cleric domains that have named spells in their spell list? Presumably, once the God noticed a particular wizard was using a spell he thought was nifty, he switched out whatever spell that had been used for centuries?
Several spells cross between Arcane and Divine. Are they typically of divine origine that arcane mages reverse engineer, of arcane origin reverse engineered by the divine folks, or a random smattering?
Pluffet Smedger, Pliny, or one of them sages said that magic is on the decline. Were many more spells known in the olden days?
Any thoughts on the development and spread of spells is welcome.
Actually, it wasn't uncommon in ancient and medieval times for scholars to use their masters' names, or to write using the names of revered sages of old. Witness all the kabbalistic writings supposedly written by Moses or Abraham; it's very possible that none of the Circle of Eight are known by the names they were born with, taking instead the names of famous ancient wizards to protect their "truenames" and increase their own notoriety and panache.
If that's the case. The apprentices they take on, over time, are sure to have access to some of the archmages spells and over time have become common knowledge. To take this even further, the apprentice dies in an adventure. Another finds the book. This mage happens to be part of a guild, as part of his contribution he transcribes this spell into a guild volume.
Another thought is that it could be a little mind game they are playing. Putting your spell out there could be a way of getting some noteriety. So that when they are out and about in the world and others come in contact with them. There is some degree of respect and awe just because of how well the name is known.
Lots of possibilitys. Just part of the fun and mystery of these powerful mages.
"Innkeeper! Fill my drinking horn with beer." As the innkeeper steps closer Valkaun hands him his drinking horn and a platinum piece. The innkeeper's eyes widen. Valkaun thumbs the platinum piece and says "I'm looking for a wizard named Tenser. Where can I find him?"
"Tenser? Never heard of him." replied the innkeeper swiping the platinum piece and the horn in one swift motion.
To me this makes more sense. Afterall, how many people knew who Gandalf was?
Do wizard from across the Flaneass gather to exchange their latest workings or is dissemination on an individual to individual basis?
Both. Learning spells from other wizards is much easier and faster than researching it yourself, so it's in wizards' best interest to form colleges, societies, circles and the like to exchange information.
Are new spells common or the rare preserve of the greatest wizards of the world - like the many developed by Mordenkainen and the Circle of Eight?
New spells are rare because high level mages are rare. I'd guess there probably less than a hundred wizards capable of casting 9th level spells. Not that you'd have to be that high level, but high level mages are likely the only ones with the time and resources to create new spells.
Are spells subject to fads? A wizard develops a new spell and within months / years it is taught in every magical college only to be forgotten in a couple more years.
Absolutely. Only those that stand the test of time survive. Also note that the named spells may only retain their name for as long as their creator is remembered. The acid arrow spell may live on in generic form long after Prince Brightflame is forgotten. We're seeing this already in certain disreputable spellbooks. (SRD
)Are some of the ubiquitous spells (e.g. magic missle, invisibility, fireball) virtually identical to spells the ancient Suel / Baklunes used, or would Serten not recognize a single spell in use c. 590 CY?
They'd be different, but all spells are unique and hard to grasp, so a mage from a different era would only be at a slight disadvantage.
Are spells like nuclear weapons? Once a wizard is known to have developed some form of spell the race is on for others to reverse engineer said spell.
This happened more in the past I'd think, leading to the magical arms race that caused the twin catcaclysms. Wizards seem more independent and collegiate these days, though rivalries certainly exist.
Do Aerdy wizards learn roughly the same spells as Velverdyva wizards, or are spell lists regionally differentiated?
It would make sense that they would have different spells. Even more so for the underdark, whose wizards have been separated for thousands of years. And the outer planes, etc. It just becomes a gameplay issue, keeping track of all those spell names. So I imagine a sort of universal magic translator in effect. I mean Drow hate fairies, why would have have a spell called fairie's fire? They probably have another name, but the effect of the spell is the same.
Given 3.5 Sorcerers, how is it that Mordenkainen spent all that hard work designing a Faithful Hound, specifically regulating the magical incarnations that must be made to bring it into being, and within at most a couple decades Sorcerers are casting it willy-nilly?
I think any sorcerer who used one of his few spell slots for that spell has some serious issues
But my take on sorcerers is that they have an easier time gaining spells than wizards. The don't need to see the creators magical writings, they could just attempt to duplicate the spells effect from seeing it, or even just from hearing about it.What about the Cleric domains that have named spells in their spell list? Presumably, once the God noticed a particular wizard was using a spell he thought was nifty, he switched out whatever spell that had been used for centuries?
Very interesting point, that of Gods ripping off wizards spells. Do you have any specific example of a named spell being in a divine casters list? Another interesting question is could a divine caster have a spell named after them?
Several spells cross between Arcane and Divine. Are they typically of divine origine that arcane mages reverse engineer, of arcane origin reverse engineered by the divine folks, or a random smattering?
Pluffet Smedger, Pliny, or one of them sages said that magic is on the decline. Were many more spells known in the olden days?
I'd say yes, only because it supports the idea that the ancients had more powerful magic, especially in terms of artifacts, which is a very handy plot device.
Great post.
As 2nd ed progressed and more monsters were introduced with those spells as natural abilities, it was declared that the spell effects were actually ancient, and that the modern, named, versions were only the most recent resdiscovery, or most popular or best known version or user of the spell.
The specific character names from the campaigns, Tenser, Mordenkainen, Bigby, and a few others, are not especially long-lived or anything, or intended to be named for the actual ancient creators of those spells.
As for options in spell knowledge by region, that depends on how much effort you want to put in developing such. It is certainly possible, and often suggested by the plethora of products that come out with new spells as crunchy bits. Just be aware of the effect it will have on game balance to restrict spell access like that.
However, there are multiple problems with this outside of the fact that the Glossography says magic is on the decline.
At least two gods, Boccob and Wee Jas, have magic in their portfolios. More gods are "discovered" continuously, and so, more may hold the secrets to magic. The extent of control a god holds over a portfolio is officially undetermined. (And rightfully so, giving the DM purview over this very important aspect of the game.) Boccob restricting access to the magical arts over time could result in a decline, though I don't think he would care.
The twin cataclysms has no parrallel in Earthly history (perhaps the Maya callapse). Such devastation wrought so quickly might lead one to think of a great decline in magical aptitude. This completely discounts the magic of the elves, flan, gnomes, olman, tuov, troglodyte hedgemages, etc. I cannot think but the twin cataclysms would only momentarily affect the magical knowledge of the Flanneass, to have been fully recouped by the founding of Aerdy. The cataclysms cannot account for a decline in magic.
Perhaps there is only so much magical energies available to fuel spells and such. It could be used up over time much like fossil fuels are today.
There could be some as yet unknown entity purposefully eliminating magic from the world. Mayby that enigmatic Entropy fellow Gord keeps running into.
Personally, I think Pluffet Smedger is writing to his readers, imagining the past to be a grand heroic time far surpassing his present time. Sure particular spells and formulas have been lost, but the overall body of knowledge is greater than it has ever been.
So magic is a natural (or supernatural) force in the Oerth - like electricity. Some creatures, including sorcerors, can innately manipulate it in useful ways. Others, though not innate magic manipulators, can learn formulas and rituals - in other words spells - that do the same thing. These are wizards. It's certain that the ancient empires of the Suel and Baklun had immensely more knowledge of magic than than currently exists on the Oerth (magic may also have been stronger then too). I'm not talking lightning rails, warforged or magical tech (though that's an interesting possiblity), but they did have enough ju-ju to assure their mutual destruction. They'd certainaly have ammassaed a vast body of magical knowledge and spells (the Suel Imperium lasted for thousands of years after all) . With the Twin Cataclyms - vast amounts of that knowledge is destroyed. Think of it as the burning of a thousand Libraries of Alexandria. In the aftermath, you've got a few scattered survivors who preserve fragments of magical knowledge, but by in large, the knowledge of a lot of spells would have literally gone up in smoke. So as civilisation recovered in the Flanaess, wizards and sorcerors would have had to rediscover a lot of that lost knowledge through their own research/training.
There are parallels for this in scientific and technical knowledge in the real world. The Romans knew how to make concrete, but the Franks of the Dark Ages didn't. The Minoans not only had linear B, but advanced plumbing systems not seen again until the Enlightenment.
Now, let's consider that even with magic, the Flanaess is still a pre-printing press culture. So if you're a wizard who's discovered a new ritual, the only way you can copy and disseminate it is by hand(magical means notwithstanding). So new spells would, at least in the lifetime of the discoverer, be associated with the discoverer. As time goes by, and the spell becomes more widely disseminated, the linkage to the discoverer becomes more tenuous, especially after their death. While everyone might not know who Mordenkainen is, those in magely circles certainly do. However, in a 100 years, assuming Mordy is dead, he'll have faded in prominence, and the name of a new premiere archmage (and the spells he creates) will be on the lips of the mages of that time.
So why do sorcerors have Tenser's Floating disk or creatures have a named spell as an spell like ability? Well - it's largely down to naming conventions. Critters with spell like abilities have always been able to do that ability. The named wizard might have studied it and worked out a formula (spell) to replicate the ability. When they publish the spell, everyone calls it Tenser's or Rary's whatever, and then applies it to the critter that had it in the first place, since that's the conventional way to describe that power.
Sorcerors are probably similar. They might innately be able to cast Tenser's Floating Disk without ever having met Tenser or even seen a wizard cast it. They just worked out how to manipulate the natural magic to do what they wanted. But sorcerors may also be able to look at a wizard cast a spell and then "reverse engineer" how to make the spell work innately. A wizard watching the sorceror cast the spell might call the spell effect Tenser's floating disk but only because that's the standard name in the conventions of magical literature (magical Canon if you will) for that specific spell.
Does this mean that in 432 CY, there was no Mordenkainen's disjunction? No - it's possible some mage or sorceror somewhere might have cracked the formula to that particular spell, but he/she/it obviously didn't widely disseminate the knowledge. It only entered the "magical Canon" in recent times after Mordenkainen made it widely known. Given the fragile nature of scrolls and magical knowledge, it's possible that spells known in the Suel Imperium might have been redicovered and lost several times between then and the current time. A version of Bigby's Crushing Hand might have been known among a small coterie of masters and apprentices in say, Eastfair in 145 CY, for example. However, the untimely death of a couple of apprentices and a fire in the master's library meant that knowledge of the spell was lost until Bigby of Oldridge worked it out again, either all on his own or from charred fragments of the original research.
So, if you looked at a standard spellbook from 432 CY, you wouldn't see the current named spells - nothing my Tenser or Bigby et al (not under their current names at least) - but you might see Shalazar's Magic Missile, Kohinuur's Fireball, or Azal'lan's Ghoul Touch. Thinking about it - it's a nice way to add flavour to ancient scrolls and spellbooks.
An interesting adventure hook might be a rivalry between two wizards who've come up with a spell independently and then seek to put forward their claim to the spell (like the conflicts between different inventors over who invented what first) or espionage between wizards over a spell. You could have magical feuds and skullduggery of all sorts.
But in short - naming spells after a wizard is a convention used by mages (probably to show scholarly deference and respect). It doesn't mean that they are necessarily the first being to ever use that magical formula or effect - just the ones who have brought them to the widespread attention of scholars of magic in recent times.
P.
In my campaigns, I've actually taken an opposite approach: I've made even many "standard" spells from the PHB so that they're now less common (whether named spells, or still "generic" and nameless ones). I did this in part as a means to round out the portfolios and capabilities of the various famous named quasi-deities and magic users (yes, we're talking 1e here; example: Melf created Flame Arrow as well [but lost Minute Meteors to Nirilic]; Keoghtom's Avoidance is his creation, just as Secure originated with Drawmij), and to balance out spells that I considered quite powerful by making them less common (Feeblemind and Magic Jar were created by the necromancer Omnirz, whlie Wraithform and Shapechange belong to Nefaron [as in "The Garden of...", from Dragon 53]; identify and comprehend languages are less common than sleep which is easier to find than magic missle).
Part of my thinking and rationale for these changes stemmed from Greenwood's "Pages from the Mages" series in Dragon (numbers 62, 69, 92, 97, 100, and 110 for some Elminster spells), which inspired me to create more individuation among spells (and to liberally steal them for NPCs of my own creation). Another inspiration was the MU spell list selection rules from the 1e DMG (page 39), in which PCs were given an attack spell, a defensive spell, and a miscellaneous spell (assuming they knew three spells at first level [a number which varied according to the MU's intelligence]), but Nystul's Magic Aura and Tenser's Floating Disc remained unavailable to starting PCs: this gave them development goals to strive for, beyond to the usual magic missle, sleep, etc. (I use material components for similar reasons of game balance, as well as rewards/clues/flavor during game play).
When the 3e game was first released, I recreated that 1e DMG 1st level spells table: wizards would receive three spells in their spell book at 1st level, one from each table (offense, defense, misc.), plus Read Magic, plus a bonus spell for each bonus point greater than 2 granted by Int. The spells broke down as follows (roll all spells known, no picking unless you're lucky):
- Offensive: 1. Burning Hands, 2. Cause Fear, 3. Chill Touch, 4. Color Spray, 5. Enlarge, 6. Grease, 7. Hypnotism, 8. Magic Missile, 9. Magic Weapon, 10. Ray of Enfeeblement, 11. Reduce, 12. Shocking Grasp, 13. Sleep, 14. Summon Monster I, 15. True Strike, 16. Pick your spell
- Defensive: 1. Alarm, 2. Endure Elements, 3. Expeditious Retreat, 4. Feather Fall, 5. Hold Portal, 6. Jump, 7. Mage Armor, 8. Protection from Chaos, 9. Protection from Evil, 10. Protection from Good, 11. Protection from Law, 12. Shield, 13. Obscuring Mist, 14. Pick your spell
- Miscellaneous: 1. Animate Rope, 2. Change Self, 3. Comprehend Languages, 4. Detect Secret Doors, 5. Detect Undead, 6. Erase, 7. Identify, 8. Message, 9. Mount, 10. Silent Image, 11. Spider Climb, 12. Unseen Servant, 13. Ventriloquism, 14. Pick your spell
Cantrips were similarly split into three groups (PCs could exchange knowing all cantrips for knowing only half, and gain an additional 1st level spell in their spell book).
In the end, I created a spell rarity system that emulated the 1e MM Frequency info, applying it to spells instead of monsters: Common, Uncommon, Rare, and Very Rare respectivelymeant that the spells would be known by 65%, 20%, 11%, and 4% of the magic-wielding public, while Unique meant that the spell was too new to be available without knowing its creator. (In practice, I think my percentages were a bit higher, more in the range of 75% for Common and 35% for Uncommon). Apparently some later 2e products did the same thing, too. I don't know how their implementations compare to mine, but from comments others have made in similar disucssions in the past, it sounds like the overall effect was similar.
Samwise, thanks for the context about the genericization of the various named spells: I wasn't aware that 2e had stripped Mordy et al of some of their signature magics.
Well, not so much "stripped" as forced to share.
And mind you, that's summarizing several years (a decade?) of products in a pair of paragraphs. The overall "trend" was a bit more reasonable in context. That is, Morenkainen et al were hardwired, or at least perceived as hardwired, into the GH setting, or at least the core rules. With most products being FR, and the few that weren't not being GH, or even not part of specific settings, those names became a drag, particularly when they wanted to assign them as spell-like abilities and such. When a dragon has to use Bigby's Grasping Hand instead of a Grasping Claw, writers apparently felt it got in the way. (And yes, that's an actual example. From the stellar dragon for SJ IIRC.)
But that eventually became the default explanation. In many ways it was sort of a forerunner of the stripped name versions of the spells in the SRD.
And yes, that table in the DMG 1 was pretty much the start of "name" spells being more restricted. This was expanded on in several, mostly FR, products, like the Pages from the Mages that you mention, and later used in the Spell Compendiums. (Wherever my copies are hiding.) Tracing the patterns through all of them just requires having been around for so long. (And having spent so much money on them!)
Likewise, it's safe to assume that all spells had a name at one time, and one interesting hobby for a wizard or bard character could be learning these histories. While the spell may be unchanged, a scroll containing the original Slerotin's Stone Shape would be far more valuable to historians, and provide more story hooks than a mundane Stone Shape spell.
Likewise, it's safe to assume that all spells had a name at one time, and one interesting hobby for a wizard or bard character could be learning these histories. While the spell may be unchanged, a scroll containing the original Slerotin's Stone Shape would be far more valuable to historians, and provide more story hooks than a mundane Stone Shape spell.
As an interesting aside on that:
Gates of Firestorm Peak featured nearly all the magic items, down to potions of cure light wounds!, having names.
This was featured in several other Bruce Cordell modules, but never to as great an extent as in that one.
While obviously time and space consuming, I thought it was quite the nice bit of background material.
Shrugs... :P
Didnt the adventure "Rary the traitor" mention something about killing off even the "clones" of the poor other wizards in the circle who didnt survive?
I'm sure at this point in their careers a lot of them have gone through quite a few clones.
But, officially, Bigby was born 58 years ago, Drawmij 63 years ago, Mordenkainen 82 years ago, Nystul 53 years ago, and Otto 53 years ago. Any clones must have been made since then.
I dont know how many of the spells were actually researched and invented IC, as opposed to just being written up and put in the books, though
There are several reasons that are possible for this:
- An attempt to foster magical research
- Certain spell research can lead back to the escallation that lead to the ID and RoCF, so spells are "leaked" which lead down other paths of magical study.
- The spells may have been leaked first to those who served the interests of the circle in some way, as a reward.
- They may have been traded for other magical research.
- Simply keeping the names of the circle members on the tongues of wizards is useful to the circle.
Before I get flamed for this traitorous quote: this is game world stuff, not real life stuff, see the Forgotten Realms Netherese accessory
Every true GH fan knows that Netherese archwizards travelled to the future (before Mystra banned that), paid a visit to Oerth, copied spells of such brilliance they couldn't hope to duplicate them, and then returned home to claim the glory of their discovery.
No, it's Netherese propaganda.
There's lots of Realms-based propaganda against other campaign settings, isn't there? Makes me wonder whether Kara-Tur and Zakhara are to be found on Toril at all.... ;)
The point is the magic of Toril was original they didn't steal spells from others because all there spells came from doing research with the Nether Scrolls, now this is only the basic spells not all spells, the point is the magic of faerun was original creations...
PS., magic missile was created by a general of the netherese army who just happend to be a wizard...I think it was called General's "whatever his first name was" Magic Missiles
The reason for the disputed who made what spell from the greyhawk list of spells used that or used on Toril is the timeline, since many of them spells were being used many centuries before any of the Circle of Eight were even born...
The reason there is no dispute with the names attached to the Toril wizards is they were alive and very well known and powerfull when the spells that are attached to there names were introduced, and they usually were the only ones who had them...
The Nether scrolls take many different forms and are very numerous, one is actually in the form of a golden leaf tree now, it seems the deeper you delve into there secrets they change forms and the more powerfull or new information is revealed, the remaining scrolls still known to exist are still giving tid-bits of new information to this day...
The point is on Toril the Nether Scrolls are what wizardly magic was born from for the human race, and for some reason the Dwarfs elected or could not use magic of that sort...
The Netherese accessory explains it all in detail and puts and end to were magic came that the human race uses on Toril, maybe one day the other gaming worlds will have an accessory to clear up their magical origins confusion...
PS - the magic being used by wizards today on Toril under went a few major transformation since then, the fall of Netheril changed magic and the way it was used drastically in almost everyway from the way the Netherese used it, after the fall of magic even the mighty Netherese still on Toril had to re-learn how to be wizards and how to cast magic the new way, they did however use all there prior knowledge to develope they same spells they had original developed but that took many generations and many spells were lost thru the ages...
one more thing some of the ancient powerfull spells found on Toril can be hard to use, requiring spell components that no longer exist on the world, and other components like powerful magic items used up to cast the spell, and the roll of a saving throw to see if casting it kills you, these things make some of the ancient spells kinda rare to ever see a wizard willing to use them...