I did not sense that the casters (particularly Sadira) had memorized a certain number of lvl restricted spells per day but instead had an amount of life energy they could tap per day, if such is the case would not a spell point system be more apperpo? In my campaign I am giving it a shot and it feels very Athasian, the players drawing the necessarry life energy to cast their spells just prior to casting. And forming and releasing it with their incantations, gestures, and materials. The players of the few mages in my tri-parallel game have come to carefully consider the use of their life energy allotment for the each day. The result is a less stringent number of spells for any given lvl, but a greater freedom to use the energy of Athas to shape their magic as they see fit. They still study (memorize) spells they intend to cast that day, but it is based on their Spell Pts/Day instead of Spells/lvl/Day.
Ideas? If more people are interested I will post my spell point system here on the boards.
Alexis
I'd like to see your spellpoint system, I've yet to find one I like.. most I see are very combersome.. how do you factor in the variable spells per day defilers get access to?? as well as shadow mages and the like?
I don't bother with that mechanic at all. I figure their benefit comes when they cast their spell and raze the land. The more abundant the life, the more power they can channel into their spells. When defiling places that has very little life left to it, they take a penalty on caster level. Fair trade off as far as I'm concerned without getting into time consuming/unwieldy rules. That is just my personal preference though
As to spellpoints, I haven't really had much reason to try them out, having been quite content with the current spells per day system. Who knows though, maybe one day...
I'd like to see your spellpoint system, I've yet to find one I like.. most I see are very combersome.. how do you factor in the variable spells per day defilers get access to?? as well as shadow mages and the like?
Well, I liked the one out of Unearthed Arcana, but it might need some tweaking. That's what I use for the Dragons with the ability I explained abouve.
In short, you memorize spells in the same way you do in D&D, however, you can then any combination of these *memorised* spells for a total of times equal to the number of spells you can memorise for that level.
For example, if you can memorise 3 first level spells and 2 second level spells, you can also cast any combination of these spells for a total of 3 first level spells and 2 second level spells (much like a sorcerer, except here "known" spells are replaced by *prepared* spells).
Its quite a simple system really, and add to that defiling (also see my work, based mostly on the Dragon magazine system) and you can have your wizards replenish their spell slots.
The reasons I chose this modified spell slot system are numerous:
1- I hate fixed spell slots. They just don't relate in any way to my idea of fantasy magic. While I can appreciate, to a point, the idea of memorising spells, I find the idea of the spells individually dissapearing from the caster's memory as he casts it to be really lame, especially when you can memorise the same spell multiple times. But that may be just me.
1b- Fixed spell slots also considerably limit the versatility of wizards, which may be considered a balancing factor, but often just hinders play because the wizard didn't pick the right spell out of sheer bad luck. With these "open" spell slots, this reality is less of a problem (though does not allow complete versatility, which might be unbalancing for a class with theoretically unlimited number of spells which can be learned)
2- Memorising spells is actually described in the Prism Pentad (I think, though might be some other DS novels). As I said before, I can accept that idea flavor wise, and mechanically wise, it is somewhat necessary to limit the number of "known" spells for a class with "sorcerer" like casting versatily.
3- I had first tried to use spell pools and spell points, but I quickly turned back for a simple reason: They really made spellcasters and manifesters almost alike. Spell slots vs. Power points are one of the defining traits between the two, and the line became so blurred it diminished the flavor of psionics considerably.
4- I also realised that "open" spell slots do allow considerable versatility under this system because you also have to remember that you can use higher level spell slots to cast lower level spells, and so the more you gain levels, the more you can cast low level spells, if that is what you wish. With fixed spell slots, the problem was that you quickly can cast as many higher level spells as 1st level spells, which seems a bit odd.
5- Other mechanical considerations made the system compatible with the defiling system (with spontaneous metamagic) easier.
Also note that I presented a variant of the "vitalizing" system for spells presented in Unearthed Arcana to regain spell slots while resting in the day, but getting fatigued and exausted if you cast non-stop, which also can be quite interesting for game. I use all of the above in my campaign and it all works quite well.
So anyways, hope it helps, and feel free to send any comments you have.
And BTW, I've been away for a time, but guys, I've been running the best DS campaign I ever had and it has been going on since June. Basically a pieced-up campaign of official adventures and my own ideas, all mixed up with the grand scheme of events from the age of heroes. When I get enough time off, I'll be posting the story, from Shattered Lands to Grave Circumstances to City by the Silt Sea, my players have been at it for 3 months now (OOC) and more than 2 months in game, gone from 3rd level to 8th, and everyone's still really into it. Really great!
Anyways, until I have some time, Long Live the Dark Sun! ;)
Sadly Shei-nad hit my only qualms with it on the head. It blurs the line between magic and psionics, which I must admit is a near turn off to me. I will post it anyway, but as my players have learned, all things in my games can and might change if a better mechanic is found.
I should be able to post it Monday as I still do not have home net access, and must rely on a measly 2 hours a day at the library to do my net stuff.
Alexis
One thing to consider is that a spell point system dilutes the mechanical differences between a wizard and a psion. Since many spells and powers overlap, you would be left with fluff mostly to separate between the two. Whether or not this is desirable I will leave for others to debate.
Exactly why I dropped the spell point idea in the end.
Fascinating that there is a concern about spell points blurring the difference between mages and psions. That's actually the thing my husband and I like about spell points. Perversely (I guess, seeing the reactions here), we'd rather have them work game mechanically the same. We use the spell point system directly out of Unearthed Arcana, and we'd never go back.
Well, for other campaign settings that might work. But for Dark Sun, magic and psionics really are two different things, not two sides of the same coin. Hell, divine and arcane magic are really two different things--divine being more natural, while arcane is an unnatural form of magic. I generally like having the mechanics be a bit different because of that.
This idea really only works in DS if the DM does not allow sorcerers. I always liked playing a sorcerer- more spells per day, and then when they were high enough level I would have them take the feat Arcane Preperation to allow them to memorize spells like a wizard- giving them the total best of both worlds, with the only draw back of getting new spell levels one level higher then a wizard. Then, and this is my favorite, have them get a ring of wizardry I or II and they can cast spells all day or if you mixed in some divine spell casting classes you could then mix in mystic thurge and really rock out with a hella bunch of spells :D
of course with this option you Cl gos down (= to divine spell class), but you can fix that now with the Practiced Spellcaster feat (one for divine and one for arcane).
I heart spells
Though my idea is in no way novel, for many have gone similar routes before I will give it a try if, as I fear, it remains unbalancing I will go to the system Kal mentioned which I have used before in Dark Sun, prepare a certain number of spells per day as per the rules in PhB for wizard, cast them as you will from memorized spells.....
Still I want to give the SP system one more try and a final revamp before deciding wether or not to cast it aside.
Note, for those who have a problem seeing the logic of the vacian/fire and forget system of spellcasting, here is a quick way of looking at it that will make more sense:
the wizard is actually "hanging" the spells when they memorize them. Ie they are casting all but the final stage of the spell, the focusing the magical energy, when they memorize it. Kind of like building a mystical circuit that when they push magical energy through it they casues the spell effect. So all they are doing when they "cast" the spell is pushing magical energy through the circuit, and this burns out the circuit when they do it..... thus they "forget" the spell and have to once again memorize it to cast it again.
This explanation also explains how some spells and special abilities can cause casters to forget memorized spells, and even gives a explanation for sorcerers..... they have these circuits permanently built into them, vs. having the more fragile hung spells, and are just limited by how much energy they can channel through the circuits of their known spells.
Personally I kept the wizard spellcasting the same in darksun with minimal changes..... mainly I added a speciallized concentration check to gather the energy for the spellcasting as a move action, however the advantage is that metamagic feats are added at time of casting... (thus do not require an actual higher spell slot, however they require you to gather energy for the spell as if they were at the higher spell slot..... this gives defilers their advantage as defiling gains a bonus on the amount of energy gathered with the concentration check.)
However I have changed the divine casters to a totally different systems in dark sun..... I am using just spells known, but it requires a concentration check and expinditure of vitality to cast the spells (I use a wound and vitality system) to fit how they were described better in the novels.
Wow! nice explaination, seker.
thank you thank you.....
I had a problem with working on the idea of D&D magic systems for years till I started thinking of the wizards in D&D as hedge wizards instead of true magus.....
then it all fit in place..... they hang spells around them instead of having an innate understanding of magic.....
this makes the signature spell feat much more interesting in 3.x D&D as it represents true understanding of a spell, something that a normal wizard lacks.....
this also explains my reasoning on how I am going with the magic systems for d20 modern..... sorcerers lack true understanding of magic.... and the SK/champion template will have a way for them to gain "true understanding" of a few spells and the like. Whereas divine cassters are impressed/granted certain magics and again do not have true understanding of what they wield.... only psionicist truely understand the powers they wield
The explanation of why a wizard "forgets" a spell after memorization is because they are not really memorizing a spell in the traditionally understood sense. Rather, they are creating a living thing: a spell is an alien energy pattern that must be committed to memory and is thus difficult (ie: mentally taxing) to hold onto once created.
Wizards can create and hold these mental patterns/energies because they have had years of training in learning the mental gymnastics necessary to wrap their minds around twisting, non-Euclidian ideas and then maintain the created understanding of the energy pattern until they can release it. Releasing the spell, however, is exactly that: the energy pattern is "let go", "completed" if you want to see it that way, and proceedes to do its stuff.
As mages become more powerful, they learn to hold onto more energy patterns: through practice, it becomes less taxing to create and maintain these bizzare, strenuous, alien patterns.
Why spellbooks? Perhaps the pattern keeps changing, and because memorization doesn't really mean memorizing a fact like "1+1=2" (and suddenly you know how to manipulate space and time at whim). It requires something like solving complex, constantly changing equasions to create/empower/something the mental "energy pattern".
So: memorization isn't. A mage can't KNOW the energy pattern once "memorized" because it isn't something than can be "memorized". Once the energy pattern is spent/released/depleted in casting the spell, it has to be recreated through rememorizing a new pattern of energy. That's why you can't just "re-cast" a spell without memorizing it...sure, you might recall the number pattern or equasion solutions and after a decade of knowing them, you probably do remember them like the back of your hand; but that hardly matters because the energy you built up in memorization is either already spent or not even there.
The PROCESS, not just the knowledge, is an absolute requirement for the spell. The creation of the energy pattern, the mental gymnastics the wizard goes through, are what are necessary.
Look at it this way: if you need water, it doesn't matter if you have a bucket to hold the water. Unless you go out to the well and get the water, it doesn't matter if you have the bucket, because the bucket can't make water, only hold it. So, very simplistically, spells are like water, knowing a spell is like having a bucket and memorization is like filling that bucket.
Or even more simplistically, it doesn't matter that you KNOW how to tie your shoes, you still have to do it to actually tie them. You can't just say, "HA! I know how to tie and untie my shoes now, so I don't have to any more!"
Thus, you can see that all the difficulties with the "fire & forget" system are rectified by realizing that mages are not "memorizing" a spell and then "forgetting" how to cast it when they're done. They don't "forget" the spell, they "forget" (ie: released) the alien energy pattern they've built and caged in their minds.
One can also look at it like this: memorization is actually magical ritual in that the wizard is pre-casting the spell, so to speak. He is calling upon certain arcane forces to aid him when it becomes necessary -- and that's what the somatic, verbal and material components of a spell do. They "trigger" those arcane forces, or "conduct" them, or "summon" them -- however one might wish to describe it.
Like saying, "I have summoned these forces to do my bidding when I say Abracadabra!" but also realizing that it isn't like a light switch you can set-up and just flick on-and-off. Because it is a ritual, the mind needs to re-perform it in order to make it happen again.
I find, having studied real-world occultism and magick, that it makes the most sense this way: magic as practiced in a D&D world might be considered an evolution of modern and historical magical practices, where the long ritual component of spell-casting has been made obsolete thanks to a greater understanding of the science behind magical workings, and thus a refinement of the process by which magic is performed.
In magickal systems of the real world, casting a circle (the preparation for enacting spells) takes about 10-15 minutes, as does closing the circle when the magical rituals have been completed -- try doing that on the fly! "Memorization" might thus be seen to be the mental rehersal of the circle ritual and an associated summoning of the desired magical forces, achieving the same effect as casting a circle, casting a spell, and then closing the circle...but in a much shorter and pre-emptive time, and without all the physical rituals.
In some way, though inaccurately, it might be said that the mage is "enchanting" himself with a bit of magic that requires a trigger in order to be released, to use those arcane forces gathered all around him. He can't just cast the spell a dozen times in a row, because he hasn't done the ritual to get the magic a dozen times. Just like you can't untie your shoes a dozen times in a row (not without tieing them first!).
Also, spell points require all sorts of bloody tracking, so they're just annoying. One of the many reasons I also despise and hate psionics. Just so no one thinks I've gone soft on my rabid disgust of point-based magic systems.
I am glad someone else sees what I was reffering to on the way spellcasting looks.
While I call it hedge wizardry, it is the same thing you talk about..... ritual magic.
there is another form but it is innate and really does not fit at all by d&d systems, though I have tried to build a viable system for it in my own campaign world..... (which btw is where alot of my stuff I am building up for my d20 modern darksun is coming from.)
personally I preffered 2ed psionics..... that is why I have found a way to convert it and balance it for 3.x...... no more 9 levels or powers.... back to devotions and sciences for me thank you
The explanation of why a wizard "forgets" a spell after memorization is because they are not really memorizing a spell in the traditionally understood sense.
You might note, additionally, that the idea of wizards "memorizing" their spells is a holdover in our minds. 3e does not refer to memorizing spells. It refers to preparing them.