now that I have your attention,....Is there anything out there official that would speculate that Oronis is aware of the existance of the Last Sea region? And further more that he knows there are lizard men and dolphins still alive.
If so please tell me about it.
If not... what do you think?? Should he know such a thing ??
Speaking of lizardmen, how would Dregoth feel if he knew about them? Was he inspired by the lizardfolk when he created the dray? Would he now see them as imperfect abominations - a mockery of his superior dray? Any thoughts? (perhaps this line should be placed in a different thread?).
Is there anything out there official that would speculate that Oronis is aware of the existance of the Last Sea region? And further more that he knows there are lizard men and dolphins still alive.
If so please tell me about it.
If not... what do you think?? Should he know such a thing ??
It's from the timeline:
162nd King's Age (-2156)
-Friend's Reverence
Keltis (later known as Oronis), 10th Champion of Rajaat believes he
exterminates the last of the lizard men. In reality several tribes survive,
protected by the Mind Lords.
156th King's Age (-2,618)
Gallard (later known as Nibenay), 6th Champion of Rajaat massacres the last
of Athas's gnomes.
Keltis, Lizard Man Executioner arrives at Saragar despite the powers of the
Mind Lords. The Mind Lord's cleverness hides the entire population of
lizard men from the Champion, and he soon leaves the Last Sea.
Very interesting take on Oronis's state of mind. Maybe he would get some peace of mind by learning that there are in fact remaining lizardmen, perhaps even redeeming himself by helping the small population of lizardfolk grow and thrive.
I've considered that. I've also considered that without his constantly guilty conscience, he'd conceivably have less of a reson to pursue the Avangion metamorphosis. Or at the very least, might slip-up more.
Speaking of lizardmen, how would Dregoth feel if he knew about them? Was he inspired by the lizardfolk when he created the dray? Would he now see them as imperfect abominations - a mockery of his superior dray? Any thoughts? (perhaps this line should be placed in a different thread?).
I think Dregoth would find them as abominable as he does other races. Dregoth made the Dray in search of making a race that was modeled after the perfected form of a Dragon. A llizardman would not be that "perfected form" in his view--despite the extreme similarities between the Dray and Lizardmen.
Following that train of though- perhap he still secretly fanticises or has these urges for killing and destroying lizardmen, and believing that they are all dead, feels unfullfilled on one hand and loathing for himself in that he wants to believe he has changed and become a better 'man'.
This whole line of thought about champions not feeling at piece until they have completed their tasks confuses me. Do all of the champions who didn't complete their tasks feel this way and if so why haven't any of them shown it? The best example I can see is Alberon's (Andropinus) continuing hatred of elves, but he doesn't actively pursue their destruction anymore. And honestly I bet most of the SKs hate elves, they're just plain trouble makers.
Borys didn't complete his task of slaying the dwarves, and they are probably the most common race besides humans in the cities now (possibly exceeded by half-elves). And, Dregoth didn't even try to finish his task of slaying the Giants while Rajaat was still around. You can add the Oba to the list of SKs who didn't finish their tasks and aren't pursuing them as well.
So either the urge to complete the task isn't that great, or some explainations of why none of the "failed" SKs have tried to complete their tasks is required. Spite for Rajaat just doesn't cut it for anyone other than Borys.
This whole line of thought about champions not feeling at piece until they have completed their tasks confuses me. Do all of the champions who didn't complete their tasks feel this way and if so why haven't any of them shown it? The best example I can see is Alberon's (Andropinus) continuing hatred of elves, but he doesn't actively pursue their destruction anymore. And honestly I bet most of the SKs hate elves, they're just plain trouble makers.
Borys didn't complete his task of slaying the dwarves, and they are probably the most common race besides humans in the cities now (possibly exceeded by half-elves). And, Dregoth didn't even try to finish his task of slaying the Giants while Rajaat was still around. You can add the Oba to the list of SKs who didn't finish their tasks and aren't pursuing them as well.
So either the urge to complete the task isn't that great, or some explainations of why none of the "failed" SKs have tried to complete their tasks is required. Spite for Rajaat just doesn't cut it for anyone other than Borys.
You'd also think that Hamanu would jaunt over to the Trollgrave Chasm to waste the Last Troll if that were the case.
But the description of Wyan's mind also implies that finishing the task of cleansing one race from the face of Athas is an extremely fulfilling and satisfying feeling:
Agis of Asticles tries to psionically fight Wyan of Bodach, whose mindscape is a plane filled with dead pixies. Agis uses his most powerful psionic attacks to rip whole parts of the landscape apart (the equivalent would be ripping chunks out of Wyan's brain). Wyan appears next to Agis and tells him "With the last Pixie killed by me long ago, my mind is comletely at peace. You cannot harm me."
I love this passage, because it is one of the rare occurences that Wyan talks about his past as a champion and seems rather melacholic about it. Anyways, the fulfillment of the task seems to be a very rewarding, which this scene depicts in an impressive way.
Good question. Borys' hatred for Rajaat must have been a much stronger feeling than the urge to finish off the dwarves. I mean, he already killed their last King and had the remaining dwarves right in front of him to get done with the job.
Borys was severely wounded and rushed off the battlefield during that encounter.
But the description of Wyan's mind also implies that finishing the task of cleansing one race from the face of Athas is an extremely fulfilling and satisfying feeling:
Agis of Asticles tries to psionically fight Wyan of Bodach, whose mindscape is a plane filled with dead pixies. Agis uses his most powerful psionic attacks to rip whole parts of the landscape apart (the equivalent would be ripping chunks out of Wyan's brain). Wyan appears next to Agis and tells him "With the last Pixie killed by me long ago, my mind is completely at peace. You cannot harm me."
That could be just related to Wyan being a twisted SOB. And for a 3.5 explanation, undead are immune to mind effecting powers and spells.
I love this passage, because it is one of the rare occurrences that Wyan talks about his past as a champion and seems rather melancholic about it. Anyways, the fulfillment of the task seems to be a very rewarding, which this scene depicts in an impressive way.
Agreed, it is a most excellent scene.
That could be just related to Wyan being a twisted SOB. And for a 3.5 explanation, undead are immune to mind effecting powers and spells.
Wyan is not undead, he's the disembodied living head of a Champion.
I love this passage, because it is one of the rare occurences that Wyan talks about his past as a champion and seems rather melacholic about it. Anyways, the fulfillment of the task seems to be a very rewarding, which this scene depicts in an impressive way.
That could just be that Wyan was a genocidic psychopath and found great personal pleasure in completing his goal.
Wyan is not undead, he's the disembodied living head of a Champion.
I don't think it was ever addressed whether they were undead or not, but in my opinion they are.
I don't think it was ever addressed whether they were undead or not, but in my opinion they are.
Its effectively said so only in RaFoaDK. At the time of the Champions' betrayal, no Champion knew how to kill each other, so the worst they could do to Sacha and Wyan was leave them attached near the Tower when Borys gathered the energy to become the Dragon. The two Champioms' bodies were drained of their energy and their heads were set free.
Its all because Champions are not just ageless but also immortal.
Its effectively said so only in RaFoaDK. At the time of the Champions' betrayal, no Champion knew how to kill each other, so the worst they could do to Sacha and Wyan was leave them attached near the Tower when Borys gathered the energy to become the Dragon. The two Champioms' bodies were drained of their energy and their heads were set free.
Its all because Champions are not just ageless but also immortal.
RaFoaDK? No comment.
Actually, I do. Dregoth's undead. And any excuse of saying that the Champions had centuries to develop a way to kill each other won't cut it IMO.
Pity. Its such a good book filled with good ideas.
-sight-
Pity. Its such a good book filled with good ideas.
Agreed, but some were just plain not kosher.
Its effectively said so only in RaFoaDK. At the time of the Champions' betrayal, no Champion knew how to kill each other, so the worst they could do to Sacha and Wyan was leave them attached near the Tower when Borys gathered the energy to become the Dragon. The two Champioms' bodies were drained of their energy and their heads were set free.
Its all because Champions are not just ageless but also immortal.
I'm surprised that your took this book as a reference forimmortality since the community as a whole agrees that it is full of errors condradicting other official material. Although I' myself' agree it is sad to be so since I thought IT to be a great book until I've read other thread about it.
Hum Hum! SK are mortals in the sence they can be killed but yes they wont die of old age. I mean Dregoth is an UNDEAD what better prouf do you need? If it wasn't is followers who brought him back to unlife, he would be in the gray. ( and by now...nothing but a thought ) also...
I have to disagree here because if they can't be killed, how then did Rajaat killed at least 2 of them by bashing them during his brief release from the hollow. Unless you'r telling me: only Rajaat has the power to kill a SK. Then again, Kalak was killed by mere mortals. I know some would say that kala wasn't a true SK but it hasn't been official if I remember correctly.
But the immortality bit, lets wait and see what the Champion template brings to a dragon character. It might bring more than just agelessness, it might bring: no need for sleep, food, etc...which would mean they are basically like vampires, i.e. you can trap them in a coffin, entomb them for a thousand years, and then bring them out and they are still alive, which in my book means immortality.
But lets wait for the template to come out.
I won't repeat for the Xth time the whole shebang again. Its in two dozen threads already.
But the immortality bit, lets wait and see what the Champion template brings to a dragon character. It might bring more than just agelessness, it might bring: no need for sleep, food, etc...which would mean they are basically like vampires, i.e. you can trap them in a coffin, entomb them for a thousand years, and then bring them out and they are still alive, which in my book means immortality.
But lets wait for the template to come out.
I hope nothing is tagged to that template that Only Rajaat or one of the three swords created by him are the only ways to kill a Champion. That would be horrible.
Good question. Borys' hatred for Rajaat must have been a much stronger feeling than the urge to finish off the dwarves. I mean, he already killed their last King and had the remaining dwarves right in front of him to get done with the job.
But the description of Wyan's mind also implies that finishing the task of cleansing one race from the face of Athas is an extremely fulfilling and satisfying feeling:
Agis of Asticles tries to psionically fight Wyan of Bodach, whose mindscape is a plane filled with dead pixies. Agis uses his most powerful psionic attacks to rip whole parts of the landscape apart (the equivalent would be ripping chunks out of Wyan's brain). Wyan appears next to Agis and tells him "With the last Pixie killed by me long ago, my mind is comletely at peace. You cannot harm me."
I love this passage, because it is one of the rare occurences that Wyan talks about his past as a champion and seems rather melacholic about it. Anyways, the fulfillment of the task seems to be a very rewarding, which this scene depicts in an impressive way.
I would argue that in the case of Wyan it was a singular circumstance. He made peace with himself long ago about his war against the pixies. Just because one Champion made peace with his conscience (or lack thereof) doesn't mean everyone will or has.
I hope you do not misunderstand me, I do not crusade in any way for "All champions should be feeling this or that". Wyan's mindscape is just the only evidence I can remember of the feelings a champion might have now if he fulfilled his task set by Rajaat.
And I really like the scene. It seems so out of character for Wyan to react in such a calm way.
This whole line of thought about champions not feeling at piece until they have completed their tasks confuses me. Do all of the champions who didn't complete their tasks feel this way and if so why haven't any of them shown it? The best example I can see is Alberon's (Andropinus) continuing hatred of elves, but he doesn't actively pursue their destruction anymore. And honestly I bet most of the SKs hate elves, they're just plain trouble makers.
Not being at peace just means that their minds can be regularly troubled with the fact they've not completed it. However, they have sort of "come to terms" with this, and deal with it, I'd figure constantly. Andropinis scared off the Elves from Balic, Borys still had issues with the Dwarves (at least, if memory serves, it alludes to this in the Prism Pentad), and so forth. I'd fogure Hamanu has a problem with Humans, and concievably with all of the Pristine races--which is reflected in his extreme legalistic nature, and in how xenophobic he's been with regards to outsiders (locking down Urik and so forth).
Borys didn't complete his task of slaying the dwarves, and they are probably the most common race besides humans in the cities now (possibly exceeded by half-elves). And, Dregoth didn't even try to finish his task of slaying the Giants while Rajaat was still around. You can add the Oba to the list of SKs who didn't finish their tasks and aren't pursuing them as well.
Being at peace with themselves over this, and simply not fulfilling the task are two different things. They just simply avoid completing the tasks. Of the remaining SK's, only Daskinor and Nibenay have completed their tasks. Lalai-Puy, Hamanu (his second task, not the primary one), Oronis, and Dregoth never finished the job. Oronis, however, is utterly convinced that he has finished the job, even if instinctively he knows that is incorrect, and the paradoxial nature of this could be one of the strongest factors in his guilty conscience. The others know that they did not finish the jobs. They may instinctively desire to do it (and crave it even), but they hold back intentionally.
So either the urge to complete the task isn't that great, or some explainations of why none of the "failed" SKs have tried to complete their tasks is required. Spite for Rajaat just doesn't cut it for anyone other than Borys.
It's not so much an urge, as an impulse. What's the difference? Degree. They each feel that they've not finished it, and it is a subtle reminder ingrained in them, a desire to finish the task that Rajaat could easily have integrated into his Champions when he made them such. A desire that is not quenched until their tasks are truly completed.
You'd also think that Hamanu would jaunt over to the Trollgrave Chasm to waste the Last Troll if that were the case.
There's a troll around?
There's a troll around?
Yes, there was an adventure in a Dungeon magizine (Nov/Dec 1995 issue #56)called Grave Circumstance (lvl 5-7: total 27 lvls) written by Bill Slavicsek. It makes (or made depending how the adventure was ran) its home in the Trollgrave Chasm. IIRC it came out just after the Revised Box set came out. The troll was called a Patchwork Troll due to it splicing on extra body parts during the trolls last battle with Hamanu (that is how they make it sound anyway)
Here is the COVER of the issue. I have the issue, but I seen that you can buy it at Paizo.com for $12 plus shipping if you want it.
I really liked this adventure and it was a great way to introduce characters to the northern region if they had never ventured outside of the Tyr Region. The only thing I did not like was that at the end of the adventure, it says that there is a place in the Chasm that could turn a defiler into a 30th lvl Dragon in one go.
It is the only description of the feelings of a champion concerning the genocidal actions he performed IIRC. Due to the very special nature and personality of the champions, one could probably argue that each and every single one of them is a "special case". I just think that Wyan's feelings should not be dismissed too lightly.
I hope you do not misunderstand me, I do not crusade in any way for "All champions should be feeling this or that". Wyan's mindscape is just the only evidence I can remember of the feelings a champion might have now if he fulfilled his task set by Rajaat.
And I really like the scene. It seems so out of character for Wyan to react in such a calm way.
That was the point I was trying to make as well. It is out of character for Wyan to be like that. So... it can be some insight into how a champion might feel about completing his or her goal. It also shows the determination and dedication of the Sorcerer-Kings, who could be struggling with this facet of life quietly.
I believe that this was one of the directions Lynn Abbey was going with Rise and Fall, only she had added that a Champion would feel extreme pleasure when slaying a member of the race that Champion was tasked to wipe out. If it is a euphoric experience as she suggested it could be, then there could also be sort of mild withdrawl that they feel, as well as the temptation to kill those races again coming to the forefront. Dregoth stopped killing Giants kind of early--but he could easily have been far too studious to be enticed so easily--goal focused and determined to discover his own power (kind of how I saw Dregoth being, why I propose he made the Dragon metamophosis spells, etc.) Hamanu could be sooooooo worried about letting his hungers be sated that he won't even dare considering "taking a little jaunt up to the Troll Grave chasm to kill the last surviving troll". Lalai-Puy could be trying to figure out how to get over it herself, with regards to the Aarakocra. After all, Gulg has an open invitation to the bird-people officially, does it not--and don't the Aarakocra, as a rule, basically avoid that city-state (well, they tend to avoid all non-New Kurn city-states). Oronis could be feeling it as something that is compounding his guilt making him seek redemption. Nibenay seems to not really be so concerned about things--he's spent the last two millenia away from most of his citizens, and any guy with that many wives would need some sort of phenominally good peace of mind to handle that. Daskinor would have peace of mind, if it wasn't for it's current fractured state.
Yes, there was an adventure in a Dungeon magizine (Nov/Dec 1995 issue #56)called Grave Circumstance (lvl 5-7: total 27 lvls) written by Bill Slavicsek. It makes (or made depending how the adventure was ran) its home in the Trollgrave Chasm. IIRC it came out just after the Revised Box set came out. The troll was called a Patchwork Troll due to it splicing on extra body parts during the trolls last battle with Hamanu (that is how they make it sound anyway)
Yes, I ran that adventure for my campaign. The PCs ended up fighting the Last Troll and had a chance to kill it, but they let it live due to it being the last of its kind. They also stopped the defiler from becoming a full blown dragon, thankfully.
I know this is utterly ridiculous, but that gives me an idea about Daskinor's Madness. What would happen to a champion who some how managed to become or think they had become a member of the race they themselves were tasked to kill. That is, if Daskinor somehow were made into a goblin or convinced that he had become one, that could have driven him raving mad!
... Eh. I prefer to see Daskinor's madness as pure paranoia, just flat out shoving him over the edge. Immortality is a hard thing to deal with, and he's seen enough backstabbing in his little circle of "friends" ...
It really can be just as simple as watching the SKs gang up on Dregoth, or knowledge of how effectively Hamanu took out Selbia ....
... Eh. I prefer to see Daskinor's madness as pure paranoia, just flat out shoving him over the edge. Immortality is a hard thing to deal with, and he's seen enough backstabbing in his little circle of "friends" ...
It really can be just as simple as watching the SKs gang up on Dregoth, or knowledge of how effectively Hamanu took out Selbia ....
Yah, well like I said it was a ridiculous idea. I wasn't expecting anyone to prefer it over other explainations
.