Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Sep 23, 2005 7:43:35	ok, no gods in athas, but why there aren't religions in athas? I think that the prime reason is that athas is a deserted world - there are no heroes, no hope and no gods. a world without gods, without a belief, is a world of despair, and athas is a harsh world of despair. but, as we all know, the nonexistance of gods doesn't mean nonexistance of religion. on the contrary, I expect athas to be full of pagan religions (who said "spirits of the land"?) and horror myths, of human sacrifice (not only in Draj) and of mystic cults (wizardry is esoteric and frightening even when we disregard defiling). I think that religious persecution (of the SM against the elemental and pagan religions), struggle (of the "heretic" elemental priests to convince the masses that there is no true in the pagan gods, but in the inner planes) and misconception (of defilers sects who worship the destruction of the land, who inspired by the Dragon) can be appropriate for athas just as, and maybe more, than the "no gods-no religion-no hope" dogma.
#2 Sysane Sep 23, 2005 9:44:34	There was a thread on this awhile back that addressed this issue. Any one remember the title?
#3 Kamelion Sep 24, 2005 1:48:09	There are religions on Athas, primarily the worship of the elements. Most, if not all of the city-states have shrines to the various elements and there are also a handful of larger shrines scattered across the Tablelands (such as Gunginwald near Tyr, for example) - these are described in Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Kled is an example of a village where the religion of element worship is a central part of village life (either Sun or Fire, depending on the reading). Raam (prior to Dregoth Ascending) had the religion of Badna and several of the sorcerer-kings required their citizens to venerate them as gods. Beyond this, I would agree that you would find instances of worship of the Spirits of the Land. I would also agree with SandChicken's suggestions of peculiar mystery cults here and there and even those who see the Dragon as some kind of divine force. Religions may not be massively widespread or organised, but they are definitely there.
#4 ruhl-than_sage Sep 24, 2005 12:01:30	It would be nice to see some religious beliefs and practices developed for different groups of people, a sampling if you will. The legends attached to these beliefs would be an improtant part of understanding where the beliefs come from, but also of great improtance would be cultural taboos, festivals, rites of passage and initiation, and superstitions held by the people. Currently the most development along these lines that I've seen on the boards is PeaceBringers work on the peoples of Gulg. It would be nice to see some material developed for other tribal peoples, including elves and halflings (I'm working on the halflings personally), and even for more wide spread elemental movements and SK based religions.
#5 Pennarin Sep 24, 2005 14:24:18	There is evidence that before Rajaat and the Sorcerer-Kings came (good candidates to be treated as gods), some Green Age populations worshiped elements through the guise of makebelieve gods. For example, a people might have worshiped Irulan, the goddess of fate, and those priests who did receive spells from her were in fact fire clerics, since some of Irulan's precepts mention fate being related to fire.
#6 korvar Sep 24, 2005 22:17:01	In my "What Your Father Told You" for the Noble, I posited a form of Ancestor Worship, where Noble Families worshipped the spirits of their dead ancestors.
#7 ruhl-than_sage Sep 24, 2005 22:28:38	In my "What Your Father Told You" for the Noble, I posited a form of Ancestor Worship, where Noble Families worshipped the spirits of their dead ancestors. Ah, yes ancestor whorship a staple of noble families. Good point!
#8 Shei-Nad Sep 26, 2005 14:47:48	I tried to draw a non-exclusive list of religions for my d20 conversion of the setting. Here is a listing of what I came up with: Ancestors (some dwarves, Nibenay aristocracy) Badna (Raam) Coraanu (akin to ancestor worship for elves, not a god, but certainly revered) Dej, Kano and the Reincarnation (Kreen) Dragon (certainly a mythical being (actually a real one) that is feared and revered) Elemental Air, Earth, Fire, Water (each seperatly or as a whole) Elemetal Cults (tribal religions on aspects of the elements: Ex.: God of the Volcano. Religion for Adept NPC class) Earth Mother (animistic religion of the Pterran, close to Spirit of the Land) Focus (not a religion, but certainly a philosophy and way of life for dwarves) Great One (Thri-Kreen revere Avangions when they see one) Now (The Now of elves as a life philosophy) Oba (Gulg) Paraelemental Magma, Rain, Silt and Sun (as Elements) Rhan Thes-Onel (The revered lost Lord of the Rhulisti) Spirits of the Land (for druids) Stars (not a religion, but has some mythical significance for elves, and Draji and Nibenese astrologers) Two Moons (Draj) If you have any more, I'd like to hear them and add them to the list. For more details, see my website, Chapter Six: Description.
#9 korvar Sep 26, 2005 15:00:26	Dregoth is worshipped by the Dray (I think).
#10 Sysane Sep 26, 2005 15:05:17	-The Gith of Black Spine sort of worshipped the Githyanki. -There's also that evil earth cult located in the underground city of Yathizor called the Sqaure of Gundark(sp?) -Taraskir, the Lion King was also venerated by a group known as The Order of the Claw.
#11 Shei-Nad Sep 26, 2005 16:45:02	Dregoth by the Dray, yup. And they see him as a God. You could even have a variant Dregoth the Savior cult after the demise of Abalach-Re in Raam. It was preached by an half-giant if I remember correctly... The Black Spine gith. Gonna look into that (have the adventure in pdf, never ran it). Yathizor? Never even heard of it. Where is it described? Taraskir, aye, though that cult no longer exists (although I guess you could have a cult cell which had survived Dregoth's cleansing at the time survive today). You could also talk about the "bird-man" figure in UnderTyr, which was a ancient god.
#12 kalthandrix Sep 26, 2005 18:04:49	Dregoth by the Dray, yup. And they see him as a God. You could even have a variant Dregoth the Savior cult after the demise of Abalach-Re in Raam. It was preached by an half-giant if I remember correctly... The Black Spine gith. Gonna look into that (have the adventure in pdf, never ran it). Yathizor? Never even heard of it. Where is it described? Taraskir, aye, though that cult no longer exists (although I guess you could have a cult cell which had survived Dregoth's cleansing at the time survive today). You could also talk about the "bird-man" figure in UnderTyr, which was a ancient god. Levithan the Calm (spelling) was never an advocate for Dregoth- the big D sent out his own people to do this IIRC and to gain information.
#13 Sysane Sep 26, 2005 19:00:15	The Black Spine gith. Gonna look into that (have the adventure in pdf, never ran it). Good adventure. I highly recomend it. Yathizor? Never even heard of it. Where is it described? In the Black Spine Adventure. Taraskir, aye, though that cult no longer exists (although I guess you could have a cult cell which had survived Dregoth's cleansing at the time survive today). The PC's in my game took up the mantle of the Order of the Claw and went as far as to raise Taraskir from the dead.
#14 zombiegleemax Sep 28, 2005 13:01:10	There are religions on Athas, primarily the worship of the elements. Most, if not all of the city-states have shrines to the various elements and there are also a handful of larger shrines scattered across the Tablelands (such as Gunginwald near Tyr, for example) - these are described in Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Kled is an example of a village where the religion of element worship is a central part of village life (either Sun or Fire, depending on the reading). Raam (prior to Dregoth Ascending) had the religion of Badna and several of the sorcerer-kings required their citizens to venerate them as gods. Beyond this, I would agree that you would find instances of worship of the Spirits of the Land. I would also agree with SandChicken's suggestions of peculiar mystery cults here and there and even those who see the Dragon as some kind of divine force. Religions may not be massively widespread or organised, but they are definitely there. never liked the idea that the elements are being worshipped within the city-states - it doesn't make any sense: the SM would try to supress this phenomenon because it's threating their position as SM/gods, also, it threats the power of their templars and it's very unlikely that in an ignorant world like athas people would learn to distinguish priest spells from wizard spell, thus I expect witchhunting of the priests as well as wizards. I also think that elementals aren't neccesserily worshipped the same way in different cultures. the attitude, rituals and manners of champion of fire who live in a slave tribe will be significantly different from those of champion of fire who serve in Kled.
#15 kalthandrix Sep 28, 2005 14:22:48	I have to agree- elementals are not worshipped in the same manner as gods in other worlds- they do not need clerics or anyone else to fuel their power as the gods do. Also there is the Pact that each cleric makes with the elemental lords- each one is different and is more like a business relationship then holy reverence- the cleric does X and gets Y in return, and the elemental lord gives Y and gets X in return- bery business like. I also believe that in EAFW, it states that clerics worshipping the same element can be wildly different in how they approach their commitment. As for elemental temples and such in the city-states, well I tend to think that the SK's and templars allow and maybe encourage the elemental clerics to take up residence- it takes the issues of healing and others normally 'clerical' duties out of the hands of the templars, freeing them to run the cities and frees up the SK's attention and energy from granting spells to, well, whatever it is that the SK's fill up their days with. Every city-state has several elemtal shrines IIRC. Another reason the templars have no beef with the clerics having their temples in the city-states is the fact that they bring in donations and the city gets its cut in taxes and the templars most likely get a cut in kick-backs or bribes.
#16 Pennarin Sep 28, 2005 20:41:41	Every city-state has several elemtal shrines IIRC. Nibenay has several elemental temples. (3 listed on the map, 1 in the booklet) The map in The Ivory Triangle lists the following temples: - Temple of Elemental Water - Temple of Earth - Temple of the Sun The booklet on Nibenay, under Clerics at the end, mentions the presence in the city of the Temple of Elemental Fire.
#17 the_peacebringer Sep 29, 2005 7:17:12	Nibenay has several elemental temples. (3 listed on the map, 1 in the booklet) The map in The Ivory Triangle lists the following temples: - Temple of Elemental Water - Temple of Earth - Temple of the Sun The booklet on Nibenay, under Clerics at the end, mentions the presence in the city of the Temple of Elemental Fire. Similar to Gulg, although there are only three temple dagada, one for each element except Water. The Fire temple is also a Sun temple instead (but I treat it as a Fire temple whose emblem is the sun... and has a small Sun paraelemental cult).
#18 zombiegleemax Oct 05, 2005 12:45:05	I have to agree- elementals are not worshipped in the same manner as gods in other worlds- they do not need clerics or anyone else to fuel their power as the gods do. Also there is the Pact that each cleric makes with the elemental lords- each one is different and is more like a business relationship then holy reverence- the cleric does X and gets Y in return, and the elemental lord gives Y and gets X in return- bery business like. I also believe that in EAFW, it states that clerics worshipping the same element can be wildly different in how they approach their commitment.. I think that in some cases the elementals are worshipped as some kind of divine force (eg. the sun by the dwarves of Kled), and sometimes the Pact is merely a contract (eg. the windsingers of the elven tribes). As for elemental temples and such in the city-states, well I tend to think that the SK's and templars allow and maybe encourage the elemental clerics to take up residence- it takes the issues of healing and others normally 'clerical' duties out of the hands of the templars, freeing them to run the cities and frees up the SK's attention and energy from granting spells to, well, whatever it is that the SK's fill up their days with. I disagree, a healer is a man who possess power, and I don't think the templars will be glad to give up their power and status to the priesthood. Actually, in any society, especially in the ancient socities which athas' socities based on, the priests had a major power. I don't see why the templars should let another priests to enjoy the respect they could gain (according to your suggestion, the role of the templars is to arrest, judge, punish, enslave and take bribery while the clerics should offer help and healing for the masses - the templars won't survive one generation in such case). Every city-state has several elemtal shrines IIRC. Another reason the templars have no beef with the clerics having their temples in the city-states is the fact that they bring in donations and the city gets its cut in taxes and the templars most likely get a cut in kick-backs or bribes This sort of thinking is very modern, assuming that the clerics will actually pay taxes to the king... (again, in ancient societies, the priests didn't have to pay taxes, no to mention that most of the civils didn't paid their taxes). I think that the templars prefer to run the temples by themselves and eat the whole cake rather than get some chips of bribes and taxes. You also forget that the clerics pose a threat against the power of the SK: 1) because they can cast spells, and eventually become an AB. 2) because as religious leaders they have political power that can be used against the SK.