Kalthandrix's post:
The reason that I think that specialization is not something for a 'core' class is just that
1) there are no schools of magic,
2)wizards hide their skill and very infrequently IMO seek out people to teach due to ->
3) wizards, at least perservers, have been hunted like dogs by the SK's and arcane magic is against the law in every city-state, or at least in the one controlled by SK's depending on which era you play in
4)how many people would even seek out a wizard to get training, most common people beleave that the world it in the shape it is due to all arcane spellcasters, so that would really limit the number of people even looking to become one, and
5)the kind of super focuses training that a specialist needs is really hard to do when you are on the run and have to hide all arcane material so the templars do not find it.
I could even see each of the city-states' Veiled Alliances specializing in a different schools of magic from one another based on the individual city's' social and ecological conditions.
Back in that Green Age I would imagine that specialistS were abundant. However, I think they would be less common in the present day but not to the point of being non existent. I'd assume that some of that knowledge could have survived.
The point I'm trying to make is the reverse, that there is no special knowledge to specialization. For example, a fighter PC lost alone on a desert island for a year, with access to only spells from one school, would be better off taking his first level of wizard as a specialist...or the DM could insist on it, since there are no availlable spells from other schools.
The fighter PC in the above example does not need to be told "secrets" of specialisation from a specialist mentor for him to specialise.
I'd say that there shouldn't be any specialist wizards. There may have been the time and motivation for such things in the Green Age [...]
However, there really isn't the time for a Wizard to do such things in the modern Dark Sun. When you are spending more time hiding from people day to day, and keeping your abilities secret, then there is less opportunity to worry about the development of a specialization.
All true if specialisation was a PrC, but its a 1st-level choice, it requires no special time, ressources, or knowledge to accomplish.
I don't see specialisation as requiring "time and motivation".
If I may be allowed to make a guess, I say it looks to me like its a fluff decision you are making, while there is no longer any fluff in 3.5 concerning specialist wizards being more difficult to train. That is, if there ever was such fluff in 2E, I can't remember.
All true if specialisation was a PrC, but its a 1st-level choice, it requires no special time, ressources, or knowledge to accomplish.
I don't see specialisation as requiring "time and motivation".
If I may be allowed to make a guess, I say it looks to me like its a fluff decision you are making, while there is no longer any fluff in 3.5 concerning specialist wizards being more difficult to train. That is, if there ever was such fluff in 2E, I can't remember.
Well, it's the fluff decision I use to say no to specialization. Specialization on Athas *should* be PrC's, and should be Green Age PrC's. There already is the division of Defiler and Preserver, do you seriously want the extra complication of both defiler and preserver versions of the specializations? They weren't in the 2E (DS2), they don't make much sense in Athas, and as such.... I just don't see them as being available.
There already is the division of Defiler and Preserver, do you seriously want the extra complication of both defiler and preserver versions of the specializations?
In what special way does specialisation interact with defiling?
Spellcasting-wise, everything is the exact same as for a generalist wizard...I have no problem with an NPC or PC that reads like this:
Harry: Male human wizard (defiler) 3; CR ...
...or this:
Joe: Male human evoker (defiler) 3; CR ...
They weren't in the 2E (DS2), they don't make much sense in Athas, and as such.... I just don't see them as being available.
Not true, there were a few here and there in the NPCs, and illusionists were allowed. The DS before the Revised Boxed Set had a few specialists here and there. (Not long ago I hunted down the few instances I know of, why I can say that with some certainty.)
We already have specialized wizards on athas, why want more?
Preserver (Plant)
Defiler (Plant)
Cerulean (Tyr Storm)
Necromant (The gray)
That's enouph specialized wizards for a poor magic world, a hater magic world, etc.
In fact I think it would be vary foolish to do so. Its not as if you can buy scrolls to transcribe spells from or even identify all the spell books you might find (remember they are made in a number of different ways all of which are designed to escape detection). That pottery you find sitting in a ruin near Kalidney with beautiful designs painted on it might not just be pottery, but you probably wouldn't stop to think it might have spells transcribed on it before you sell it for it's asthetic value. So, considering your access to new spells is already going to be vary limited in comparison to other settings, its best not to limit yourself by taking restricted schools.
Not true, there were a few here and there in the NPCs, and illusionists were allowed. The DS before the Revised Boxed Set had a few specialists here and there. (Not long ago I hunted down the few instances I know of, why I can say that with some certainty.)
One example is Zivlil from IT (chieftain of the halflings of Losthome); he was an illusionist/psionicist.
Who no doubt had special training since halflings couldn't be straight up mages in 2e. :D
Without a doubt. :D
One example is Zivlil from IT (chieftain of the halflings of Losthome); he was an illusionist/psionicist.
That would be because halfings in darksun in the original set could ONLY be illusionist of the arcane casters, and all chieftens were preservers per the wanderers journal in several locations..... ergo by the original setting all halfling chiefs were illusionists.... which explains Nok.
Note this was changed in later books, but in the original setting the only wizard/sorcerer halflings were illusionists.
I understand what you are saying.
The only true difference between a general wizard and a specialist is that while a general wizard would split there time evenly between studying the 8 schools of magic, the specialist spends more time studying one school in particular while still spending some time on he others the specialist has only 6 schools of magic to choose from so they have more time to study a particular school of magic than a generalist wizard dose.
The specialist wizard can take the time that would normally be spent on the two schools they are restricted from and use it to study the school they are specializing in effectively giving them 3 times the study time on the specialized school.
Let us say a generalist wizard spends 8 hours a week study magic that’s one hour per school per week, not bad for the adventuring wizard on the go, then let’s look at a specialist wizard he also studies magic 8 hours a week. The difference is with the specialist he spends 3 hours on evocation and one hour each on the rest of the schools.
That is 3 hours for evocation and 5 hours spread out between the other the 5 schools he has access to.
This takes no extra time or effort on the part of specialist wizard; he simply spends the time he would spend on the 2 schools he is restricted from on the school he specialized in. there is no extra equipment, extra study time, or extra training needed. The extra study is built into being a specialist wizard. For the time effort and the loss of 2 schools they gain a mere extra spell per spell level which has to be chosen from the specialty school and a +2 to spell craft checks to learn spells from the school they specialize in.
In a world like athas I would think that they might have a bit more specialization due to the fact that one may have to research spells using other spells they have as a guide/reference they may not have access to spells of other schools to use as a guide to researching spells. Even if you find a spell written on some pottery you still have to have knowledge of a similar spell something from the same school that you can refer to so you can find the reference point in the spell to find a spell hidden in the artwork then you can decipher the script and try to learn to cast the spell.
We think it would be so easy to be a wizard on athas when in fact it is nearly impossible to be a wizard not in service of a SK simply because finding new spells would be nearly impossible if a wizard hides his spell book so well that a templar will not see what they truly have even when they are holding it in their hands, how easy will it be for another wizard to recognize a spell or spell book when they see it?
Being a specialist wizard boils down to making a time management decision. It is simply saying that I am more interested in learning these types of spells and not that interested in learning a couple of other types, so I will spend more time studying these types of spells.
In 2ED there was more to being a specialist wizard, which is no longer true in 3.5.
IMHO this is one of the sacred cows that should be put aside, it can add even more flavor and role play opportunities to the setting.
That would be because halfings in darksun in the original set could ONLY be illusionist of the arcane casters, and all chieftens were preservers per the wanderers journal in several locations..... ergo by the original setting all halfling chiefs were illusionists.... which explains Nok.
Note this was changed in later books, but in the original setting the only wizard/sorcerer halflings were illusionists.
Yeah, I know but it goes to show that there were specialists.
Yeah, I know but it goes to show that there were specialists.
yeah but the question that engenders is that were there actually "specialists" or were illusionists only there because halflings were literally incapable of being normal mages..... remember back in original AD&D (which is what the dark sun system was, and 2nd edition) most races were incapable of being mages and some were capable of only being a limited form of caster, ie illusionists.
It depends on how you are looking at the system as if this would be a proper translation of the old rules into the new. By fluff it could be really argued either way.
Personally I used specialist back in the old darksun system, though my new d20 version of darksun I am working up will not include them. There are limited casters in my new system due to race, halflings..... and there are advanced classes to specialize, but it is not by spellschool for the most part. (mind you no spellcaster class is actually a core class in this new system though..... there are only 3 core classes [20 level classes, warrior, expert, and psionicist] and racial classes [20 level] that you can choose at first level..... spellcasting is an addon to classes not a core part, untill you take advanced/prestige classes.....)
I have never liked the idea of specialists on Athas, and the idea of being able to become one at first level is one that I really dislike.
Pennarin had mde the argument before that specialists should be more common due to the limited amount of arcane materials on hand. I disagree with this idea due to the fact that by restricting two schools of magic, a wizard become much more limited in their ability to handle issues with their magic. Wizards on Athas need to be very versitile in their approach to magic, or they become dead magic-users very quickly. By restricting their ability to cast any spell, the wizard reduces their chances of survival, though in the long-term, a specialist wizard is able to overcome this issue, but the problem is getting them to live long enough to do so.
I too believe speciality mages are rare on Athas, although I won't cross em out from my game as a core class.
PB
Personally, I don't mind arcane specialists in my game if the player really wants one (and has the background to go with it), but I haven't bothered with creating any of my NPCs as anything else than generalists.
I too believe speciality mages are rare on Athas, although I won't cross em out from my game as a core class.
PB
As an aside to you PeaceBringer- do you have any ideas for the missing abilities of the Arcane Specialist PrC- I need a few more and have kinda run into the perverbial brickwall in my efforts to think up something that is cool and in line with the other specialists abilities. :D
Back on topic- I have no problem with the idea of having specialists being a core class- but there would need to be things done that would make having them there flow with the setting- like a school or something that teaches magic. I have started making an arcane school at Mageholm, not only to host the PrC I made, but to also allow for 1st level specialists to exist in my game.
Also, specialization is meant to reflect advanced magics. They are, after all, schools of specialization, not a type of magic, meaning they are academic interpretations of the nature of magic. These interpretations may or may not be false, but I don't think Athas support that kind of scholary structure. Even the strict laws against magic would probably keep magic as something mystic and exotic among the magicians themselves. We are after all, colored by others interpretations of ourselves.
An athasian magician would probably be seen as a very savage and unorganized magician if Athas was part of the D&D multiverse.
This takes no extra time or effort on the part of specialist wizard; he simply spends the time he would spend on the 2 schools he is restricted from on the school he specialized in. there is no extra equipment, extra study time, or extra training needed. The extra study is built into being a specialist wizard.
Being a specialist wizard boils down to making a time management decision. It is simply saying that I am more interested in learning these types of spells and not that interested in learning a couple of other types, so I will spend more time studying these types of spells.
In 2ED there was more to being a specialist wizard, which is no longer true in 3.5.
IMHO this is one of the sacred cows that should be put aside, it can add even more flavor and role play opportunities to the setting.
Exactly my thoughts. And yes, specialisation is a sacred cow from 2E's time that should be laid to rest.
In a world like athas I would think that they might have a bit more specialization due to the fact that one may have to research spells using other spells they have as a guide/reference they may not have access to spells of other schools to use as a guide to researching spells. Even if you find a spell written on some pottery you still have to have knowledge of a similar spell something from the same school that you can refer to so you can find the reference point in the spell to find a spell hidden in the artwork then you can decipher the script and try to learn to cast the spell.
We think it would be so easy to be a wizard on athas when in fact it is nearly impossible to be a wizard not in service of a SK simply because finding new spells would be nearly impossible if a wizard hides his spell book so well that a templar will not see what they truly have even when they are holding it in their hands, how easy will it be for another wizard to recognize a spell or spell book when they see it?
Logical development from a supposition that spells inscibed on a medium are rare on Athas, i.e. most DMs won't give you spellbooks or scrolls as part of treasure. Good idea.
I've always thought of each wizard on Athas as extreme specialists. Their limited number of spells makes them all unique.
Also, specialization is meant to reflect advanced magics. They are, after all, schools of specialization, not a type of magic, meaning they are academic interpretations of the nature of magic. These interpretations may or may not be false, but I don't think Athas support that kind of scholary structure.
This is pure fluff man. Its not in the PHB, or even in the wizard class description in DS material.
This is pure fluff man. Its not in the PHB, or even in the wizard class description in DS material.
Then I am the fluffman, and I'm darn proud of it!
What I meant to portray is that specialization is too much of a luxury to Athas. A wizard of Athas just can't afford studying the finer aspects of organizing magics into nice little boxes. He just needs something to kill the next bloodthirsty beast from making him extinct.
Then I am the fluffman, and I'm darn proud of it!
Hey man, I pretty much feel the same way about it. You're not alone :P
Magic is to scarce on Athas for specialist mages. The only specialists that should exist are the 'special' mages such a nercomancers, cerculeans, shadow mages, and illusionists such as halflings and the high-level thieves that get magic spells.
Other than that, you are a presever or deflier. That's your specialization.
Oh, and hey everybody.... long time no post! Singapore is.... hot... humid... and treating me well thus far.
Hope you are all doing well.