My reason for asking is due to my Mate's desire to pursue said Path. She has asked me several questions about it.
_1: What a wizard of the Path of Concurrence would be called? (just a Wizard?)
_2: Would a follower of the Path of Concurrence be able to become an Advanced Being?
_3: What kind of AB would she become? (a Dragon? An Avangion? Something else?)
Given the end results of the other two Paths (Beings that personify each Path) it would almost require a new type of Advanced Being. Looking around for inspiration I seem to be flailing in the wind. In no bit of fluff or rules can I find anything about someone pursuing the Path of Concurrence far enough to even think of becoming an AB, let alone doing so. I am one confounded woman.
In the book "Defilers & Preservers: the Wizards of Athas" they talk of the two well known paths, the Path Dexter (Preservers) & the Path Sinister (Defilers), BUT they also talk about the Path of Concurrence (no title given), a path that tries to balance the two. Well in the new rules (Dark Sun 3ed v1.6) there is no mention of the Path of Concurrence. Is the concept just been dropped or forgotten?
My reason for asking is due to my Mate's desire to pursue said Path. She has asked me several questions about it.
_1: What a wizard of the Path of Concurrence would be called? (just a Wizard?)
_2: Would a follower of the Path of Concurrence be able to become an Advanced Being?
_3: What kind of AB would she become? (a Dragon? An Avangion? Something else?)
Given the end results of the other two Paths (Beings that personify each Path) it would almost require a new type of Advanced Being. Looking around for inspiration I seem to be flailing in the wind. In no bit of fluff or rules can I find anything about someone pursuing the Path of Concurrence far enough to even think of becoming an AB, let alone doing so. I am one confounded woman.
The so called paths of magic presented in Defilers and Preservers, were in respponse to the fact that there are no specialists on Athas. They were a system of specailization in a way, that was based on whether you were a defiler or preserver. If you were a defiler it was easier to learn spells from the path sinister and harder to learn spells from the path dexter. If you were a preserver vice versa. The path of concurrance merely represented those schools of magic that were neutral, thusly equally easy for both preservers and defilers to learn.
In the new interpreation of the paths of magic, feat would be available to take for either preservers or defilers, if it was created at all. Its not a different type of wizard that follows the path of concurance, infact any wizard that doesn't take on the feats path sinister or path dexter can be considered to be following the path of concurrance. So, there is no reason for there to be another type AB for that "path". If the follower were a defiler they would still become a dragon and if they were a preserver they would still become an avangion.
Its not a different type of wizard that follows the path of concurance, infact any wizard that doesn't take on the feats path sinister or path dexter can be considered to be following the path of concurrance. So, there is no reason for there to be another type AB for that "path".
Sage has got it right.
Any thought of the Feats being made though?? Maybe they could be and updated addition to the Dragon and Avangion AB PrC prereques..
Just a thought..
Yup, he does..
Any thought of the Feats being made though?? Maybe they could be and updated addition to the Dragon and Avangion AB PrC prereques..
Just a thought..
I personally absolutely hate the idea of making the "Path Dexter" or "Path Sinister" feats being made as requirements for the AB's. There really is no justification for adding an extra feat like that into the mix of requisites that already are there, and further, there is not much of a point. Dragons do not necessarily need to be Path Sinister. Dragons are any Arcane/Psionic character that meets the requirements and is willing to undergo the process. That's right boys and girls, any. This means that it is conceivable that a Preserver starts down the path of a Dragon. of course, that would most likely make the Preserver into a Defiler, but that's another thing entirely. Avangions must be Preservers, but there's no reason for them to be Path Dexter preservers.
Ah well I couldn't think up anything anyway. And I didn't feel right even trying lol.
Alexis
Her whole character concept is one of balance, she is the only person my gaming group will allow to play True Neutral regularly, as most people just don’t have the mind set for it. So neither Defiler or Preserver appeals to her.
Dragons are creatures of evil, beings of destruction & death. Avangions are creatures of good, beings of growth & life. She wants to become something else, a being of true balance. Neither a Dragon nor an Avangion would know balance if it hit them like a Mac truck.
In a D&D world known for it’s shades of grey, very little is black & white, but the wizard ABs are. She wants to know where the grey Athas is so well known for is.
I personally absolutely hate the idea of making the "Path Dexter" or "Path Sinister" feats being made as requirements for the AB's. There really is no justification for adding an extra feat like that into the mix of requisites that already are there, and further, there is not much of a point. Dragons do not necessarily need to be Path Sinister. Dragons are any Arcane/Psionic character that meets the requirements and is willing to undergo the process. That's right boys and girls, any. This means that it is conceivable that a Preserver starts down the path of a Dragon. of course, that would most likely make the Preserver into a Defiler, but that's another thing entirely. Avangions must be Preservers, but there's no reason for them to be Path Dexter preservers.
This is not about the feats, it is about the class / play-style, she does not want to be a Preserver / follow the Path Dexter, NOR be a Defiler / follow the Path Sinister. She wants to follow the Path of Concordance, to be a truly balanced user of arcane magic, to both preserve & defile. It is possible even by the rules, just hard. So we have decided there should be a reward for following so difficult a Path.
So since she is trying very hard to follow the Path of Concurrence, trying to balance preserving and defiling (and doing pretty well so far) she will never be able to become an AB?
Her whole character concept is one of balance, she is the only person my gaming group will allow to play True Neutral regularly, as most people just don’t have the mind set for it. So neither Defiler or Preserver appeals to her.
Dragons are creatures of evil, beings of destruction & death. Avangions are creatures of good, beings of growth & life. She wants to become something else, a being of true balance. Neither a Dragon nor an Avangion would know balance if it hit them like a Mac truck.
In a D&D world known for it’s shades of grey, very little is black & white, but the wizard ABs are. She wants to know where the grey Athas is so well known for is.
Actually dragons are not evil, nor are avangions good..... They are destruction and life not good and evil...... it would be possible to have neutral alligned member of either.... not likely but possible.
A dragon that only had willing sacrifices to make his transformation, and who only transformed as a way to use their power without draining plant life.... note in the novels and such dragons could drain animals instead of plants...
a an avangion who wants to replenish the world for his own goals.... possibly even following the agenda of Rajaat and the cleansing wars....
either are possible and are examples of the fact that avangions are not ness good, nor are dragons ness. evil.
However for your own games it would be entirely possible to create a new advanced being (especially once we release the metamorphosis epic seed) that matches what you are looking for and our PrC's would be easy for you to convert to make into a new advanced being type.
However, one thing to remember while in normal D&D they deal in shades of grey and they do so on many things in Darksun (mainly on morality and alignment, one of the reasons I got rid of that system in the d20 system I am working up)..... Preserving and Defiling were always very clear cut.... and those that believed otherwise *cough cough Sadira* were mearly deluding themselves..... Defiling to save others was still Defiling.
This is not about the feats, it is about the class / play-style, she does not want to be a Preserver / follow the Path Dexter, NOR be a Defiler / follow the Path Sinister. She wants to follow the Path of Concordance, to be a truly balanced user of arcane magic, to both preserve & defile. It is possible even by the rules, just hard. So we have decided there should be a reward for following so difficult a Path.
to be honest from this description this character would most likely end up becoming a Dragon.... as they can choose to defile..... or preserve after a fashion by just using animal life to cast..... kind of like what Nok was doing. (I know I know most do not see him as a dragon, but just speaking of how he cast magic.... not his actual nature.)
But again, a balanced caster is just a Defiler who has not fully embraced their nature, by how the other sorcerer (veilled alliance) and by the nature of casting as they are already beginning to be tainted by their practices....
but again it is your game and it should be easy to make a 3rd option if you want..... I will not be in my campaigns.... though transformation through the black or grey may be an option for them.
Their isn't any reason why the character couldn't develop their own transformational process given enough time and power.
However, don't expect a cannonical version to be developed.
As Seker says, the line with Defiling and Preserving has always been very clear cut. Personally, I've tried to blur it more, to the point where you're not "a defiler" or "a preserver" and keep the moral dilemmas in place. But there has never been a "concordant" AB on Athas. For us to create one out of hand smacks of Compulsive Symmetry.
So, I would encourage this: Allow a transformation of some kind, but the character has to research and develop that transformation. She's doing something new and completely unheard of in the world of Athas, and forcing the in-game development of a new set of spells renforces that, and gives a real life and challenge and meaning to the effort. It's a much more powerful role-playing task/event, and from the sounds of it, the player would enjoy playing those events, much more than a "here, use this" sort of toss-off.
So since she is trying very hard to follow the Path of Concurrence, trying to balance preserving and defiling (and doing pretty well so far) she will never be able to become an AB?
Her whole character concept is one of balance, she is the only person my gaming group will allow to play True Neutral regularly, as most people just don’t have the mind set for it. So neither Defiler or Preserver appeals to her.
Dragons are creatures of evil, beings of destruction & death. Avangions are creatures of good, beings of growth & life. She wants to become something else, a being of true balance. Neither a Dragon nor an Avangion would know balance if it hit them like a Mac truck.
In a D&D world known for it’s shades of grey, very little is black & white, but the wizard ABs are. She wants to know where the grey Athas is so well known for is.
This character is a Defiler who happens to be a bit more conscientious than the norm, or a more reckless Preserver. There is NOTHING good, wholesome or "balanced" about defiling - it is pure selfishness, especially in the face of the damage done to the Athasian ecology...
BTW: I also believe that deliberate neutrality is impossible - it is utterly nonsensical to "balance" a good deed with an evil one...
You get the idea..
A balanced character is possible, with a neutral-ish alignment, however, if your campaign uses a rule of thumb that defilement taints you and prevents you from being able to preserve in gathering energy if its used too often, then yes, balance would be short lived indeed.. run with it that way if you prefer...
When you start placing intentions with actions in order to prove the existence of a "neutral" arcane spellcaster type, that is a fallacious argument that borders on a machavellian view of the situation. The fact that the person meant to do good, but was still willing to ravage the land to accomplish it, totally despoiling the area from being able to grow any vegetation, and effectively make Athas even more desolate, that is a person who is justifying their actions, and does not make the individual any less of a Defiler. Defilers defile the land, Preservers do not. Despite their personal intentions, alignment, or allegiences, the simple truth of it all is that a Defiler defiles and a Preserver preserves. There is no room for a half-way or gray area here. Sure, a Preserver can slip up and defile once or maybe twice, but that already tarnishes them with the VA.
Yes, there are the Path Dexter (sort of stronger focus on Preserving), Path Sinister (stronger focus on Defiling), and there was a Path Concordance -- however Path Concordance is basically summed up as the Arcane spellcasters who are neither Path Dexter nor Path Sinister (I believe that is how Defilers & Preservers explains it). So, in DS3 terms, it is those individuals who don't have either feat. That does not warrent a special kind of Advanced Being just for them -- for if that was the case, then it would imply (strongly) that you must be Path Dexter to be an Avangion, and you must be Path Sinister to be a Dragon, and as I mentioned above, that just won't fly.
The whole balance issue is a matter of perspective. A preserver who defiles isn't automatically a defiler, and a defiler who takes care as often as he can when pulling magic for his spells isn't necessarily a preserver.. Yes Athas is ecologically harmed.. however, saying using one style or the other automatically makes you evil, is like saying there is a school or schools of magic that are inherently evil by practice.. magic is neither good nor bad, its a tool. (I shouldn't need to explain that). Its not the nature of defilement that makes defiling evil, its that most defilers do actually defile without concern for anyone but themselves that grants them that stereotype.. Sadira was such that she would defile, but she was also a preserver, she'd balance out her use of defilement with the circumstances she was in, going for the greater good.. and I think a patch of razed ground here or there by her hands, which led to the death of not only a SK but the Dragon himself, and the freedom of an entire city state which could then work to repair the ravaged land of athas, is quite an acceptable loss... Think of it in terms of war if you wish.. if you fight a war, there are casualties.. but if you win, life can go on.. Doesn't mean life isn't precious, but that sometimes, things happen, and its not worth acting all shocked about..
early in the novels I would agree that Sadira thought like that...... untill Nibenay..... and her talk with the boy from the alliance after her defilement of the kings grove..... where she realized she was deluding herself with that line of logic..... defiling is defiling, there is no excusing it in the preserver mentality.
In the later books Sadira was no longer truely a preserver, she stopped being that the first time she willingly defiled.
and by dark sun defiling is not evil per say it is destructive...... destruction is not ness. evil, as it can be neutral..... Doing destruction of innocence (and face it the plants are innocent) in the name of the greater good is NOT a good act..... just like torturing a person for information to save others in not a good act.... it is a neutral act at best
A balanced character is possible, with a neutral-ish alignment, however, if your campaign uses a rule of thumb that defilement taints you and prevents you from being able to preserve in gathering energy if its used too often, then yes, balance would be short lived indeed.. run with it that way if you prefer...
yes but preserving and defiling are not inherently evil aligment wise...... though defiling could not be considered good it can sometimes be consdered neutral. And in the fluff and every version of the darksun rules defiling too often makes it impossible to preserve again, untill you are redeemed.
I have to say Xlor has a good way of putting the views of defilers and preservers...... not all defilers are evil and not all preservers are good.....
technically you could have a evil avangion or a good dragon..... not bloody likely but possible by the nature of the magic and the fluff.....
after all a dragon could concievably only use willing people for the life force for the metamorphosis...... you know like a cult leader trying to fight the power of the SK, and the cult giving themselves up to help make their champion.
after all a dragon could concievably only use willing people for the life force for the metamorphosis...... you know like a cult leader trying to fight the power of the SK, and the cult giving themselves up to help make their champion.
Or, he could use only defilers and monsters for life energy killing two birds with one stone.
Or, he could use only defilers and monsters for life energy killing two birds with one stone.
exactly.....though my example was closer to a good influenced neutral character than a true neutral character..... would depend on their aligment on the chaos/law axis.
though transformation through the black or grey may be an option for them.
So I have a question about this one, is there somewhere that a PrC has been developed? With the AB PrC's, it is about learning how to use and better understand your new nature, so besides the necromant and the shadow wizard, are there PrC's that would work for a undead caster (since necromat tends to loose it's appeal if you already ARE undead) or a shadow wizard that has undergone the full transformation? Maybe there are some from other settings, and maybe this is something that will be addressed when new materials are released from athas.org (like "Secrets of the Dead Lands," or something that has to do with the City State of Balic, since Andy's in the Black). Anyone have any suggestions for the waiting period?
(since necromat tends to loose it's appeal if you already ARE undead)
Aroo?
Being a necromant is about not being dependent on plant energy. Its unrelated to undeath...if not simply by the fact the energy comes from the plane of the dead.
The powerful undead that live in the Gray or the Obsidian Plains are necromants for this very reason, i.e. the lack of plant life in those regions.
) and either I'd go insane from touching all these different energy sources.. or, I'd be spread so thin, that I'd loose all speciality benefits from each, and be reduced to acting like a normal mage from any other realm..Being a necromant is about not being dependent on plant energy. Its unrelated to undeath...if not simply by the fact the energy comes from the plane of the dead.
The powerful undead that live in the Gray or the Obsidian Plains are necromants for this very reason, i.e. the lack of plant life in those regions.
that still does not answer my question, though i do understand your point and agree with your understanding of why someone would be a necromant. my question was, after someone became undead, is there a prestige class that focuses on understanding that new nature, like the dragon PrC does. just curious...
is there a prestige class that focuses on understanding that new nature, like the dragon PrC does. just curious...
No, and there probably never will be in any official capacity.
Any such thing would fall into the "compulsive simmetry" Flip (IIRC) talked about.
that still does not answer my question, though i do understand your point and agree with your understanding of why someone would be a necromant. my question was, after someone became undead, is there a prestige class that focuses on understanding that new nature, like the dragon PrC does. just curious...
I doubt there would be either, simply because the pathway to various undead states is too low powered, whereas the metamorphosis spells are epic castings pushing the character into an entirely new 'type' category, one that you must be epic level and have at least two classes to even have a shot at.. someone could theoretically get a ring of wishes and wish themselves into an undead state upon their death.. (or just prior to it ;)) but there's no chance of that with an AB transformation..
to have a PrC for being undead would be like crafting a PrC for being humanoid or for being a golem.. there just isn't enough power backing up the character's nature to warrent a focus upon said nature.. at least not to warrent the focus a PrC could grant..
just my two cents
My 2 bits
but anthing like this would be for a personal campaign only..... though I am working on ideas for what I will do for my d20 system and am considering a few optional rules along this line for those specific arcan mutations.
Actually I am sure there would be a way to make a sort of "advanced being" with the other energy forms..... for instance a necromant would be kind of like the stuff from magic of incarnun most likely. A shadow wizard would become more like the shades from normal D&D..... possibly something like a shadow dragon, or something much different...... size would definately increase.
but anthing like this would be for a personal campaign only..... though I am working on ideas for what I will do for my d20 system and am considering a few optional rules along this line for those specific arcan mutations.
I think that a Shadow Mage AB shoudn't be restricted to a single form.. he could be allowed to assume the form of a dragon, sure, but I reather think of his form beign similar to that of the balroc from LotR.. shifting and hard to identify.. so if he were a dragon, he wouldn't be just a black dragon, he'd have an aura of shadow around him.. I think a Draconic form, with an aura of shadow.. like a mix/reversal of a dragon/avangion would be appropriate.. size being something of an illusion, he would be something similar to an elemental in his connection to the Black.. but his power of course, is arcane..
Since shadow would be his main power.. would an avangion's aura of light really screw him over?? push him away maybe??
I think that a Shadow Mage AB shoudn't be restricted to a single form.. he could be allowed to assume the form of a dragon, sure, but I reather think of his form beign similar to that of the balroc from LotR.. shifting and hard to identify.. so if he were a dragon, he wouldn't be just a black dragon, he'd have an aura of shadow around him.. I think a Draconic form, with an aura of shadow.. like a mix/reversal of a dragon/avangion would be appropriate.. size being something of an illusion, he would be something similar to an elemental in his connection to the Black.. but his power of course, is arcane..
Since shadow would be his main power.. would an avangion's aura of light really screw him over?? push him away maybe??
Or make him stronger- shadows cannot exits in complete darkness and it is only in the light that they can be seen.
Or make him stronger- shadows cannot exits in complete darkness and it is only in the light that they can be seen.
true, I'd forgotten how Athasian shadow types work
hmmmm.. could give a spin on the whole 'dark matter' type thing, solid shadow is what the AB would be... could make an intersting mod of the Green Star Adept for minions or for the AB himself to hunt down solid shadow or 'dark matter' for transformation purposes true, I'd forgotten how Athasian shadow types work hmmmm.. could give a spin on the whole 'dark matter' type thing, solid shadow is what the AB would be... could make an intersting mod of the Green Star Adept for minions or for the AB himself to hunt down solid shadow or 'dark matter' for transformation purposes
I think it would be pretty cool to have a dark avangion- and I do not see that a preserver would not be able to do this.
There is nothing in shadow wizard PrC that states that a wizard cannot draw spell energy from plants, so I would think that they would be able still do so.
Of course he would have to come up with a slightly different process- one that would involve powering the metamorphosis by using the energy from the Black- like for the 10th stage a black diamond worth 10,000 gp and a secure place in the Black where he would place him tomb while he underwent the final change. And instead of having a bright glowing aura, it would be like his body absorbed light- like a black hole, causing the area around him to be in perpetual twilight.
Of course he would have to come up with a slightly different process- one that would involve powering the metamorphosis by using the energy from the Black- like for the 10th stage a black diamond worth 10,000 gp and a secure place in the Black where he would place him tomb while he underwent the final change. And instead of having a bright glowing aura, it would be like his body absorbed light- like a black hole, causing the area around him to be in perpetual twilight.
see, this is what i was talking about. maybe this is a path that Andy takes to free himself from the Black. he develops the process and is able to become something new.
any ideas with an undead state? there may be something with Dregoth forth coming, but any ideas in the mean time?