Now I know that the save DC is usually calculated by 10+1/2 creatures HD+ creatures Con modifier, but I do not want to have the critter with really high HD or some stupidly high Con- is there anyway to increase the DC in other ways- there is the one feat that I could give them that increases the DC by 1, but other then that I am at a loss.
The base critter will have 4-6 HD, or at least that is what I want it to have.
One poison I use for certain snakes in my games is:
Lethal Snake Venom: DC 20; Injection; Onset 1d6 minutes; Inital damage 3d4 Con; Secondary damage 3d4 Con; Estimated +2CR
One mitigating factor I use to ensure that PC's have a fair shot against such a creature is that their BAB is quite low. Another way to deal with the snake is to just leave it be like most deadly snakes you would encounter in the Real World.
This is just an example but it works for me. I hope I've given you something to think about
If you can use other material, use Savage Species' feats. One of those feats, Deadly Poison, is updated for 3.5 rules and reprinted in Serpent Kingdoms, a FR book. But that feat only augments your poison's secondary damage, not its DC. (Ability Focus and Con 19 are prerequisites.)
Note that Ability Focus is even listed in stead of Virulent Poison (a Savage Species feat) in Serpent Kingdoms' Deadly Poison description, so in 3.5 its meant to replace Virulent Poison. Still, if you need to you can make Virulent Poison and Ability Focus (poison) stack, for a +4 to DC.
Aside from all that, there are probably a few creatures in MM that have an abnormally high poison DC for their size, HD, and ability scores. (Best bet are the vermins at the end of the book.) Try and find out which ones, and when you do you'll probably find that the creature's CR is abnormally high as well, meaning that, like woobyluv suggested, an increase in the DC of poison can be had at the cost of an increase in CR.
Kamelion might know of such creatures.
Now you can manually set the DC for that venom, and if for the resulting poison if you use the Craft(poisonmaking skill) to collect it.
While I always try to check for precendent when making new things with d20, I would point out that a black lotus, for instance, must be something like a plant creature with 1/2 HD and a Con score of 5, yet its poison has a DC of 20... ;)
If its a particular trait of that venom, I guess setting a specific DC for it alone is ok.
By the way, I think D&D poisons are really, really underpowered. I might start a topic on this later, and how I've reworked this system so that poison and death have a similar meaning for my players... ;)
By the way, I think D&D poisons are really, really underpowered. I might start a topic on this later, and how I've reworked this system so that poison and death have a similar meaning for my players... ;)
That's something I'd like to see... I think the current 3.5e poison rules are pretty pathetic.
That's something I'd like to see... I think the current 3.5e poison rules are pretty pathetic.
I'm kinda of the same mind on that one. I want to put the lethality back into lethal poisons.
That's something I'd like to see... I think the current 3.5e poison rules are pretty pathetic.
Right there with you!
Right there with you!
I have to agree as well. One minor thing I do as a house rule, is to increase the DC of the save against a poinson each time it is used against someone within a short period of time.
So say, you are attacked by a group of four rouge who are all have the same poison applied to their blade with a DC 14 save. When you are hit by the 1st rouge the DC is 14, the next time its 15, the thrid time 16, and the fourth time it 17. But, on top of that I don't think you should be able to automatically save for nothing. Maybe poisons could have a DC to save for half and a DC to save for nothing, the first DC (for half) would be the standard DC 14 in the above example and the second (for nothing) would be 5 higher or 19.
Right now I have a working name- Morterran Asp (mor=death or dead, terra=earth or land) so it will also be called the Deadland Asp. It is a moderately sized snake, that lives on the boarders of the Dead Land, and as such the energies of the land have changes the critter into a very lethal beastie. The basic idea it that it is a black skinned snake on average about 5 feet long. It has a reasonably thick hide due to rubbing around on the obsidian, but it is also very smooth and somewhat shinny. It hunts smaller creatures in the surrounding area, but always returns to the Dead Lands; in fact they do not survive for very long usually if they are taken away from the area.
It will, of course, have some psionic abilities- I think a manifester level of around 4-6, HD of the same, immunity to negative energy (due to it's strange connection to the Dead Lands), and very toxic poison- I was thinking about 2d6 Str and 3d6 Dex (this is kinda what I think a overdose of muscle relaxer would do) as primary damage with secondary being paralysis with an onset time of 2 rounds- I was thinking about allowing for a second save for that effect though, like I said, this is only the bare bones of the project so far.
I agree that for the most part poison is really under played, and I know that my players hate it when I use things like bestow curse, enervation, poison, and other ability/level effecting effects- In fact one, DarkMul on the board, cries like a baby every time I do it (I think he has been poisoned once and failed his save for bestow curse once too), another character had level drain from a tembo and later was also hit with a ray of enervation.
I really think that if the bad guys have the spells and abilities then they would use then because they are some of the most dehabilitating effects available to them- why hack at a really strong and heavily armored mul gladiator if you can slow him down by stealing hit Str and giving him a -4 to all his attack, save, and skill rolls.
Most DM's IMO, are afraid of using these effects because they can really swing an encounter to favor the bad guys. I say swing away- there is always the option of running away!
Most DM's IMO, are afraid of using these effects because they can really swing an encounter to favor the bad guys. I say swing away- there is always the option of running away!
An option my players have (or have been forced to) frequently take. I'd say they run away almost half the time, if its a nast fight. Of course their opponents are even more often the ones to turn tail and run as they start dropping like flys so it goes both ways.
Of course the trick is to not make overly powerful encounters all of the time or the game gets really boring and people do not want to play. I have in one of my last gaming sessions, threw like 17 or 18 1HD creatures at the PC's (Whispers final encounter) supported by the two clerics and the time before that I let them stomp all over a group of 8-10 low level templars to let them have some fun.
"A Poisoner's Handbook" has some optional rules for hp damage to give poisons an extra punch. You might want to grab a copy of that book.
I would but you still have my $25 :D.
And I do not think it is OGC so I could not used anything direstly from there.
That said, there are a few methods of upping the save DCs of your venom. You can give the creature a high Constitution, for example. With low HD, this boosts the save DCs without affecting hit points to a large degree. Give the creature Ability Focus (poison) - that's another two points. You can also devise a specific racial ability for the creature such as Potent Venom. This gives you a huge amount of leeway, as you are designing the creature to meet your own specifications. For example:
Potent Venom (Ex): The venom of the morterran asp is particularly virulent. Increase all save DCs against its poison by +4.
The standard Medium snake is 2 HD, but you can justifiably bump that to 4 HD. Giving it 18 (or even 19) Constitution is also perfectly acceptable, using the guidelines on MM p296. Add Ability Focus (poison) and Potent Venom and you are at DC 22. That's not quite the 25 you were after but it is approaching that level of threat. You can increase the bonus from the Potent Venom ability if you like, or devise an Improved Ability Focus feat that adds another +2, for example.
And this is all still staying within the guidelines. As DM you are quite free to step beyond those and just assign the morterran asp a hefty poison by fiat and be done with the stats ;).
Kamelion- I like what you had to say, and I know as DM I can do whatever I want, but I want this critter to fall within the rules and guidelines as much as possible and hate doing things "because I am the DM".
I have had some great feedback and I think that this should get me to where I want, now I just have the write the darn thing- be on the look out!
HD 6d10+24 (54)
Con 18
potent venom (+4)-feat 1HD
ability focus (venom)+2- feat 3HD
improved ability focus (venom) +2- feat 6HD
= Poison DC 25.
Most likely, with psionic abilities and a manifester level of 6 this creature would be around a CR 10.
Also, I think it would be more then just an animal- maybe more like a magical beast because it will me moderatly intelligent.
This critter would be at the highest limit for a medium creature, a 7HD one would be considered a large.
I would say CR 10 is way too high, though. What kind of psionic powers are you planning on giving it? A full spread like a 6th-level psion? Or just a small selection at manifester level 6? If the former, CR 7 or 8 would be more appropriate, but certainly no more. If the latter, I would say more like CR 5 at a guess.
Looks like a nasty little critter, though, and a definite threat to the unwary.
Potent Venom would work better as an Extraordinary Ability - imho it is a touch too powerful for a feat. And 6 HD is pushing it for a Medium snake - but you might just be able to get away with that, though.
I would say CR 10 is way too high, though. What kind of psionic powers are you planning on giving it? A full spread like a 6th-level psion? Or just a small selection at manifester level 6? If the former, CR 7 or 8 would be more appropriate, but certainly no more. If the latter, I would say more like CR 5 at a guess.
Looks like a nasty little critter, though, and a definite threat to the unwary.
I have some of the critter written and I will post it on a new thread- I agree that the potent venom should be an [EX] ability- it had worked that out last night.
As for the psi-like abilities, well that road has not been crossed yet- I will work on that material tonight.