One person on these boards asked for the stats of Haki Shempi, the ruler of Rokushima Taiyoo (forgive mispellings, going off of memory). The guy is a rank 1 ghost that can't even manifest. His curse is to see his empire crumble apart due to his four remaining bickering sons' greed and be unable to anything but watch (classic Japanese horror twist).
Having information on the darklord doesn't serve much point, and I haven't been able to find any published material that says the names of the four remaining sons, a much more important detail when playing through an adventure in that domain.
Some people on this board even talked about the disappearance of lord soth from Ravenloft, and how its weird that he'd just disappear. Clearly these people didn't read Spectre of the Black rose, the novel that explains what happens and is even referenced in the fourth Doomsday Gazetter.
We could easily each make up the names of his Shempi's sons, but we have to face facts that going in 100 different directions won't help anyone, and if you have players from one ravenloft group that leave and join another, you'd much rather have consistancy. That can only be achieved through everyone here combining their knowledge and adding their personal experiances to the mix.
Rudoloph Van Richten and his Guides, The Weathermay-Foxgrove twins and their Guides, the infamous S and her Doomsday Gazetteer series, this is what we must emulate. If we put in a lot of effort collectively, write books with one voice on a single subject, Ravenloft has a chance of being resurrected. Writing Gazetteers (in a voice not of an already established character) about the islands of terror and clusters that don't have much information, or on the literal islands in sea of sorrows and nocturnal sea, this is where a focus should go. Referencing new secret societies and characters in those books are a side note to the more important issue of supplying players and dms with a rich text that they could use in their campaigns.
While there's not much in the source books on G'henna, if one reads Circle of Darkness, there is as much information in that book as in a domain section of one of the Doomsday Gazetteers. Its just written in a way friendly towards the adventure, not towards a source book on the domain.
Rewriting that info in a sourcebook format is an example of what I'm talking about. If no one is willing to help, fine, I'll do it myself and submit it to FoS, where it will probably be added to a netbook and go on lost in ignominy as a third rate source book. If people combine their talents though, in art, stat building, bredth of ravenloft material read, and real life anthropological knowledge, there'd be a chance of a reawakening.
I know that FoS is trying, but having people post journal entries, or writing elaborate gothic openers to their entries, that's the mint at the very end, not even a side dish. Rather than look to make stuff for the dedicated fans, we have to think like an average gamer with making this stuff. Let's face it, the average guy interested in running a Ravenloft campaign will probably not be interested in reading a hundred different personal journals, or impressive side characters. He's looking for the stats, the maps, and the key figures. He wants to know their motivations, their abilities, and name of the town inn. He wants to know what the area looks like, some local lore, and simple adventure hooks he can easily manipulate (a sentance or two is all you need, like some of the allusions made by S, in other cases, up to three paragraphs as in the side bars of the same books is the most you want to do at times).
I used the Kargatane website when it was up, and the Fraternity of Shadows after it shut down. I only came to these boards after I heard the announcement of Ravenloft reverting back to Wizards, because I saw the writing on the wall at the very end of 2nd edition, when all the Ravenloft books became "usable with the Ravenloft campaign setting or any other campaign setting" I was pleasantly surprised when White Wolf picked up the fumble and did great with it, till it wasnt making enough money it appears. Because I was unsatisfied with what FoS had to offer, I came here.
If everyone wants to play it safe, or if I accidently started some kind of turf war with FoS (I don't mean to imply the work they do is bad, its just that I feel theirs is a good suppliment to the printed material, good for people who need more than whats printed, without new printed material, new blood is needed), then Ravenloft is doomed to the same fate as spelljammer, al-qadim, dark sun, hollow world, or worse yet, planescape, where a neudered version of it is presented as a foot note, where old players disregard the new setting and new players dont know what their missing.
I could go on, but I figure if no one responds after all that I've written here, then the rest will most certainly fall on deaf ears. I will close by saying don't fool yourselves, Ravenloft won't be coming back unless we do something about it. Even if it doesn't include me, if you act now and do what I proscribed, Ravenloft has a chance, not a good one, but still a chance. If people continue to do what they've been doing though, then the only chance is if a Ravenloft fan gets control of the marketing department of Wizards of the Coarst, or of some d20 publisher that can afford the rights to Ravenloft.
I think you should post your opinion here too http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2587
There is indeed a thread on the FoS board asking fans for ideas on what to start working with. We figured out what we needed is to unite under a common goal.
Octavius, considering it's been only 5 weeks since the news of the Ravenloft ending at White Wolf, I'd just say we will first get the info of WotC's plans before any other move, if you don't mind of course.
We don't want to act recklessly and get in trouble with copyrights.
Because all the domains you discussed are just that, copyrighted. There is a difference about writing about a fan made article on a ghoul family in Rokushima Taiyoo and copying 2nd material Rokushima Taiyoo and updating it into 3rd ed.
Joël
So do any of you know of a GOOD Ravenloft resouces site? I used to use the Kargatane, but when they couldn't devote enough time to the setting anymore, they shut down the website. I think FoS's site is decent, but too much information on there doesn't sink up and not enough of the material works well together.
I suggest you write something you think is GOOD, it will be easier for everybody to understand what you mean precisely.
I'm looking for a website that instead of just repeating what older sites have put out, actually puts out new material that works with the other stuff.
Actually, the FoS is now quite different from our former master's site. Let's see:
Similar: FAQ (but updated a lot), drawing room (reviews, unavoidable part of a fan site), gallery (not the same artists), wine cellar (mostly different content than the K reference or the morgue)
Very different: the library, smoking room (campaign journals), Salon (editorials and other important notes), the whole links section, message board managing (for good or for worse, you judge).
So again, if we may, let's see what you have written for the setting; after your comments, we are curious to see it
Joël
Down boy. More "business", less personal...
Criticism is GOOD.
Octavius:
I agree, but who's going to put things together? The only way to be fair about it, that I can think of right now, is for the online community to elect people into such a position, and hold said election maybe once a year(?)...
Gotten:
Down boy. More "business", less personal...
Criticism is GOOD.
Read my post again: I wasn't getting personal in my answer.
You are.
But that's okay I 'spose, with the whole freedom of speech thing an' all...
And if you try to guess my thoughts instead of reading what my words say, I can't really help you, sorry.
And I won't bite your rotten baits. We can't get eye to eye, because you seem to be on a high horse.
Regards,
Joël
I just think you and your crew are a little quick, and spiteful, when you see a post that contains something even remotely negative about your site...a decent site that can be something more if you guys just absorb what's really bein' said.
More Ravenloft, less ego...
... but who's going to put things together? The only way to be fair about it, that I can think of right now, is for the online community to elect people into such a position, and hold said election maybe once a year(?)...
Fair? Elect? The last I knew, the folks running both the Kargatane and Fraternity websites were volunteers contributing their time, effort, and creativity for the betterment of the online Ravenloft fan community. I'm not aware of a 'virtual' line of people waiting for an opportunity to take the helm at these websites, especially when there is no money involved and quite often little thanks either. I believe that anyone who wants to contribute is always welcome, and anyone who would like to do things differently is always free to create their own sites. I agree that it would be much more productive to contribute material that would fill percieved inadaquacies, rather than just point them out as other peoples shortcomings.
I believe that anyone who wants to contribute is always welcome, and anyone who would like to do things differently is always free to create their own sites.
Unfortunately, to keeps things consistently fresh (creatively), this is true.
Touche.
So do any of you know of a GOOD Ravenloft resouces site? I used to use the Kargatane, but when they couldn't devote enough time to the setting anymore, they shut down the website. I think FoS's site is decent, but too much information on there doesn't sink up and not enough of the material works well together. I'm looking for a website that instead of just repeating what older sites have put out, actually puts out new material that works with the other stuff.
Oh, sure, Crimson Ghost, this post is absolutely GOOD criticism we could improve from, and it just doesn't imply anything else we could take badly, I see your point
Regards,
Joël
Or is this where I read you wrong?
Either way, I stand by my previous post (negative reaction to negative reaction)...and there's no personal ill will in it AT ALL.
I want more Ravenloft is all. And unfortunately, your site, your guy's vision ('net-wise), is all we got right now.
You could always ask for an explanation/example(s), instead of challenging material creativity/input.
This post is so inviting, indeed :rolleye2:
I stand by my previous post (negative reaction to negative reaction)...and there's no personal ill will in it AT ALL.
I'm glad to see this precision, really.
I want more Ravenloft is all. And unfortunately, your site, your guy's vision ('net-wise), is all we got right now.
As much as I'd like the FoS site continue to grow, I'd like even more to see an energic, large community of original Ravenloft fan sites active on the web, like we could find in the early years 2000's.
Sincerely, best wishes on your eventual online projects, let us know.
Joël
Its important to get things started right now, while the ink is still drying on the VRG to the Mists. Otherwise, people who might have something to contribute, or be interested in checking things out to play it, will just pick up something else. it will become forgotten.
I know that FoS is pushing for themselves to be a part of any Ravenloft effort (such as asking me to talk about this on their message boards). After all, they dedicated themselves to picking up the mantle of a Ravenloft web site when Kargatane shut down, and the rest of us were too busy. I know I'm guilty, but that's because I never really thought Ravenloft could die. I'm here now, because I don't want to see it go away. Worrying about copyright issues is a legitamite concern, but I'm not gonna let something like that stop me. Whatever I release is free, and will reference the source material appropriately. If I get sued, I might as well buy a lotto ticket as well, cause I wont be making any money off of it, and they'd have to invest a lot of money in a law suit for a dead game from a man with little assests... the funny thing is, if they did sue, that'd be a good thing, because that means they think im taking money from them, and if i can do well with it, why not start printing books.
personally, an election is a bad idea. those willing to do something, should say so here, we should get in contact with one another somehow, and arrange what each person might want to handle. the specifics of any such relationship should be handled out by them, not by those not willing to help.
Okay, and I will make a personal aside, like i said, I respect what FoS has done, they did the job that no one else wanted to do. However, I don't know those people, and while i will go to their boards to post basically what I'm saying here, my question would be why should I? can i say things there i can't say here? or do they have members here that refuse to come here on personal grounds (WoC issues perhaps? or hasbro?) I dont know why he wants me to repeat myself, but i will.
I'm basically challenging FoS, slapping them in the face with the glove here, i know. It might be a war i cant win, i dont know, but i dont intend it to be. All im saying is, the material previously released was a fine suppliment, but now we need source books, and if they arent willing to do it, fine. I'm asking who is?
they did the job that no one else wanted to do.
That isn't really how it happened
We love what we do as fans running the site would. However, I don't know those people, and while i will go to their boards to post basically what I'm saying here, my question would be why should I? can i say things there i can't say here? or do they have members here that refuse to come here on personal grounds (WoC issues perhaps? or hasbro?) I dont know why he wants me to repeat myself, but i will.
Scipio was pointing you the FoS board as there is more Ravenloft fans traffic there, that's all. But no, nobody there at my knowledge refuses to come here. You just might have a larger audience elsewhere, that's all.
All im saying is, the material previously released was a fine suppliment, but now we need source books, and if they arent willing to do it, fine. I'm asking who is?
We are, of course. But we won't act like headless chickens ;) and put ourselves (or any fan author we want to work with) in trouble.
Joël
As much as I'd like the FoS site continue to grow, I'd like even more to see an energic, large community of original Ravenloft fan sites active on the web, like we could find in the early years 2000's.
Sincerely, best wishes on your eventual online projects, let us know.
Joël
So i just came back from registering at the FoS website, waiting to be accepted so i can post, but let me say that I was a little surprised that the members list all date at 2003. I dont know if youd be willing to air your laundry out to the public, but what s the deal there?
That's what I was refering to by new blood. I'm more than willing to work with you guys. WITH is the operative word. I'm not asking to be the boss, I'm not looking to be bossed, and I am fine with collaboration of ideas, thats the whole point of me coming out here. If I wanted to do it alone, i'd have started already.
SOURCEBOOKS. glancing at your posts about what to focus your efforts on, I'd definately say sourcebooks are priority one. a book of madmen, serial killers, thats all nice, but #1 priority should be basic information on domains that havent been covered yet by 3.5. The clusters and islands mainly, as if WoC is going to do something, those are probably last on the list. Presitige classes and socieities are next important, if the sourcebooks give the DM a land to play in, the presitge classes give the players something to shoot for. Mods, adventures, etc. that s all at the end, after the source books are firmly set in. While a seasoned ravenloft player wants a new adventure, the market you must, MUST, shoot for is the people on the fence. dont worry about maintaining loyalty, worry about inticing people. Cool prestige classes (and base classes) and settings do that.
You hit them on both fronts, the DMs and the players who might be interested in Ravenloft, while at the same time supplying useful details to veteran DMs to use, thats the key.
It should definately not be in a voice from the main books. However, using a character name casually referenced somewhere (the abjurer who sends the PCs on the mission in When Black Roses Bloom, or one of the people who maintains a correspondance with Godefroy in the short story The Briar at the Window in the Ravenloft short story book.) is fine.
Also, its time to update the look of the website, I mean, its third rate. A few simple HTML tricks, some paint shop images, a couple well done flash cartoons, and its golden.
So i just came back from registering at the FoS website, waiting to be accepted so i can post, but let me say that I was a little surprised that the members list all date at 2003. I dont know if youd be willing to air your laundry out to the public, but what s the deal there?
I'm not sure I see what you mean. A little less the 100 of our 415 members registered in 2003. So 75%+ since then. I think you overlooked something?
Also, its time to update the look of the website, I mean, its third rate. A few simple HTML tricks, some paint shop images, a couple well done flash cartoons, and its golden.
Perhaps, perhaps not. All is a matter of taste I guess. I personally do like our austere look. If we'd be Disney, it would different, but gothic is often less glamour, IMHO (Potato, PotAHto)
Joël
Gotten: Down boy. More "business", less personal... Criticism is GOOD.
I would most definitely agree that criticism is a good thing. We would never learn nor grow if we didn't listen to the compliments and complaints of the people who visit our websites and read our netbooks. However, there is a line between constructive criticism and merely complaining. I will admit that I, too, am biased, since I am one of the moderators of the website. However, it is a difficult task to not get defensive when it feels like your work is being attack (be it intentional or not).
Now, I think that some very valid points have been brought up during this discussion. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of it has been aimed at the shortcomings of the Fraternity of Shadows (or at least questioning the ability to move onward into the future). I might be inferring insults that aren't meant to be there, but please keep in mind that it is much easier to tear something apart than it is to build.
One a similar note, I think that Catman summed our situation rather aptly. We donate a lot of time, money, and energy to a free service. A free service, that I would like to point out, provides us little more than personal satisfaction. We would love to get more feedback on our projects so that we could continue to expand. However, we struggle to get people to take the time to post their reponses (let alone trying to get people involved in developing something bigger).
Anyway, I'll leave my discussion on this point. Joel has already covered much of these topics himself, and I merely wanted emphasize a few points that had already been touched upon. I'll leave the discussion to him, since I see no need to muddle the conversation further with my remarks...
My two coppers,
Jason
Fraternity of Shadows
So i just came back from registering at the FoS website, waiting to be accepted so i can post, but let me say that I was a little surprised that the members list all date at 2003. I dont know if youd be willing to air your laundry out to the public, but what's the deal there?
As Joel already stated, you seemed to have overlooked pretty significant portion of our community if you only looked at the members from 2003. Perhaps, you didn't look past the first page or two of the members list? I would recommend spending a bit more time looking around and familiarizing yourself with things.
Also, its time to update the look of the website, I mean, its third rate. A few simple HTML tricks, some paint shop images, a couple well done flash cartoons, and its golden.
Perhaps, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Right before it gets disintigrated or turned to stone... Blasted beholders! Always, ruining my stuff.
and put ourselves (or any fan author we want to work with) in trouble.
Joël
"We want to work with."
Thank you.
However, it is a difficult task to not get defensive when it feels like your work is being attack (be it intentional or not).
Leather skin my friend...when you public, you open.
I hear what you're sayin' outside'a that.
Octavius, it might be that you were in a really bad mood when you wrote this long and exhausting article, but really, the arrogance and naivity that seems to shine between the lines of your text couldn't be more disrespecting and offensive.
The FoS has already acclaimed a position that no other actually running website for Ravenloft can claim. They've collected tons of material for every purpose and given the fan base as well as most RL authors a home with their message boards.
Now you come and say: *That's not enough.*
Well, then try to do it better.
Write a decent article for a netbook, while DMing your group, keeping your private life in check, working on your real job and manage a website so it stays actual and attractive every month. Do you or anyone else really think you could do this significantly better than the people currently in charge? - Please, anyone, tell the community your bravorous plans. And let the community be judge.
Yeah, you're right. this is a slap in the face of anyone who cares about Ravenloft represented properly on the web or elsewhere. Maybe the FoS should stop their efforts for a time so people become conscient of what lies behind managing a thrid-rate layouted website and writing *decent* articles. And then the way would be free for any wanna-be to declare himself leader of the fan community.
Interestingly, noone of those who bark like mangey dogs when it comes to critisize those who really contribute to the cause (whatever that may be) are the latest to raise their voice when it comes to take action.
This is not a matter of what measures should be taken to revive the setting, whose ashes aren't cold yet. This a matter of showing respect to those who take great efforts to improve the situation. Not anything more, just respect.
You don't like the material the FoS publishes? - Leave it away from your gaming table.
You think you could do things better? -Do.
But don't come knocking around how ridiculous a project like the FoS is when you really can't proove that you've done it better.
Joel and Jason maybe won't tell you this so directly, because this is really the lowest level of discussion. But really, I do.
"We want to work with."
Thank you.
Again looking for another meaning to my words. Really, you are one of a kind. Ever read the definition of bad faith? of harassment?
Let me explain in lenght to remove any doubt your out of context little snip of a sentence could imply.
If you had followed the FoS board activity, you would have seen there are two ways to write for the site:
- as a freewilled agent, then your stuff isn't monitored by the FoS unless it is seriously flawed. This goes in the netbooks. You can do nearly what you want in these. Freedom of writing, see?
- however, for some other work, we feel we need to monitor more closely in order to have a final product of the best quality. The current Lost Children of the Night project is run that way. People had to send us their suggestions and the best got called to write.
This discussion isn't finished between the FoS members, but a large and meaningful project like a Gaz will probably go with this way of doing things.
Otherwise, without monitoring, the final text product could look like it has been written by headless chicken, see? This is all I meant by "we want to work with".
We could have chosen to write everything ourselves and put it online when it would have been finished and get all the fame. All of the FoS are capable, creative writers. But we chose to share the fun with the rest of the community.
Satisfied?
Now what part of my post are you going to cut and imply something else with it?
No wonder we (or the Kargatane before us) sometimes get somehow impatient when your kind comes around and implies things that are false, or that most of what we did is third rate.
Joël
Again looking for another meaning to my words. Really, you are one of a kind. Ever read the definition of bad faith? of harassment?
Proving a point, nothin' more...
And I DO follow the board activity. How else could I (fairly) bring up what I did?
No wonder we (or the Kargatane before us) sometimes get somehow impatient when your kind comes around and implies things that are false, or that most of what we did is third rate.
"Your kind"...funny.
Really.
I would say more, outside of my leather skin comment in my last post, but I don't carry my tackle these days. Believe it or not.
Anyway, I'm goin' to drop this at that (as best I can), as I'd like to see the meaning behind this thread saw through in a collaborative and constructive manner.
The more I frequent the Ravenloft boards, the more I seem to realise that there is somewhere a minority that seem to dislike the FoS without saying a reason. I think the reason is simple: you don t like the FoS because it s not the Kargatane.
Guys, i have some news for you!
The Kargatane site is CLOSE
So i suggest to you that you get over it and stop attacking the FoS for the simple reason that you prefer the sining old day over the more recents one.
The FoS has provide a new home for the ravenloft community, and most of the community has choice to habit it wheter it s the Kargatane or not. And i thanks those guys much, your idea about an election in the community seem to indicate to me that you don't know how those things works, personnally i know a little of how it work, and I can only thanks the FoS to spend so many hour to keep alive my favorite gaming setting.
I understand your legitimate concern about the setting, but i think that your grudge about benevols people and the challenge you send to them to do better than they already do (and not better than what you do) are only increasing the division into the community and causing more damage than progression to our cause.
Scipion Emilien
Proving a point, nothin' more...
If you don't mind, if I were you I'd let the other readers of this thread judge what specific point you have managed to prove in this thread.
The more I frequent the Ravenloft boards, the more I seem to realise that there is somewhere a minority that seem to dislike the FoS without saying a reason. I think the reason is simple: you don t like the FoS because it s not the Kargatane.
Thank you Scipien, but I'd like to note that the Kargatane had the same problem with annoying nitpickers, trying to prove their deranged perception by harassment tactics. A minority as you say. The same kind of self righteous person who seriously hates WotC as a "big bad poluting evil cash-ripping company". You can't make them change their mind. So I guess it's our turn to get the hate.
Never mind him. For me, the point has been proven.
Joël
Think yourself a good writer, then donate your time to helping others present their ideas to the community.
Another group can manage and maintain each individual area of the FoS website.
Allocate your resources (members of the community) better, is all I'm sayin'. Well, outside of what I wrote earlier.
If you don't mind, if I were you I'd let the other readers of this thread judge what specific point you have managed to prove in this thread.
Thank you Scipien, but I'd like to note that the Kargatane had the same problem with annoying nitpickers, trying to prove their deranged perception by harassment tactics. A minority as you say. The same kind of self righteous person who seriously hates WotC as a "big bad poluting evil cash-ripping company". You can't make them change their mind. So I guess it's our turn to get the hate.
Never mind him. For me, the point has been proven.
Joël
Unbelievable man.
Funny, but unbelievable.
And, for the record, I never liked the Kargatane either (outside of what they did), because they wore horse blinds as well. Ego became a sinkhole, if you know what I'm sayin'.
And, for the record, I never liked the Kargatane either (outside of what they did), because they wore horse blinds as well. Ego became a sinkhole, if you know what I'm sayin'.
Ah well, that's interesting. So now we know you've been around for a long time, and, please correct me if I'm wrong, during all those years of complaining you wrote about nothing you shared with the Ravenloft community.
And you seem to enjoy the complaining sound you make.
You know what?
Would that makes you a professional backseat hater? :D Why would we care about your lazy opinion, tell me!
Free advice: as many other suggested, do something, you'll prove more points this way, if you know what I'm sayin'. ;)
Joël
Ah well, that's interesting. So now we know you've been around for a long time, and, please correct me if I'm wrong, during all those years of complaining you wrote about nothing you shared with the Ravenloft community.
I've put in the effort to help other posters when I thought I could, and I've asked for help from other posters when I really needed it. Is that not enough?
And no, none of my ideas have yet to be published over the 'net, cos' well...I'm a little paranoid over the fact that my people, my places, my ideas are taking place in a corporation's product. This is something that has always plagued me over the years, but it is also something that I have been slowly but surely getting over. I have enough material written that I could write my own net book or three (including my notes), and have an ongoing campaign journal (in the form of short stories/"case files").
Eventually I will overcome my paranoia and expose my ideas to the Ravenloft community, for better and for worse.
I've put in the effort to help other posters when I thought I could, and I've asked for help from other posters when I really needed it. Is that not enough?
And no, none of my ideas have yet to be published over the 'net, cos' well...I'm a little paranoid over the fact that my people, my places, my ideas are taking place in a corporation's product. This is something that has always plagued me over the years, but it is also something that I have been slowly but surely getting over. I have enough material written that I could write my own net book or three (including my notes), and have an ongoing campaign journal (in the form of short stories/"case files").
Eventually I will overcome my paranoia and expose my ideas to the Ravenloft community, for better and for worse.
You, having paranoid reactions?
Naaaah.
Let us know when it will be online, you made us very curious to read it.
Joël
You, having paranoid reactions?
Naaaah.
Let us know when it will be online, you made us very curious to read it.
Joël
Gotten:
Down boy. More "business", less personal...
Whoa. Deja-vu.
Let us know when it will be online, you made us very curious to read it.
Until that, I'm off this thread.
Worrying about copyright issues is a legitamite concern, but I'm not gonna let something like that stop me. Whatever I release is free, and will reference the source material appropriately. If I get sued, I might as well buy a lotto ticket as well, cause I wont be making any money off of it, and they'd have to invest a lot of money in a law suit for a dead game from a man with little assests... the funny thing is, if they did sue, that'd be a good thing, because that means they think im taking money from them, and if i can do well with it, why not start printing books.
I'm basically challenging FoS, slapping them in the face with the glove here, i know. It might be a war i cant win, i dont know, but i dont intend it to be. All im saying is, the material previously released was a fine suppliment, but now we need source books, and if they arent willing to do it, fine. I'm asking who is?
You may not let copyright issues stop you, but, sadly, we at the FoS will. We’re playing with WotC’s toys in their sandbox. The fact we’re even allowed in their sandbox with d20 and OGL is still new, fresh and surprising. They don’t even have to let us use the trademarked name of “Ravenloft”. They could slap us down legally and efficiently at any time. But they don’t. If not breaking the rules -even slightly- is the price that has to be paid to get more Ravenloft to the fans then it is a very, very small price.
If we were to, say, publish copyrighted text it is very doubtful we would be sued. That is not how things work. Likely we would be sent a “cease and desist” letter threatening legal action only if we failed to remove any and all copyrighted material. And a CC of that letter would likely be sent to our ISP and webmaster so if we failed to comply they would simply remove us from the web.
The FoS is not well-funded enough to run its own server and Internet Provider!
Likely, this is what would happen to you Octavius. It would never even have to get to court. Your webpage would simply vanish from the net one day and you’d get some informative letter from your Service Provider.
but #1 priority should be basic information on domains that havent been covered yet by 3.5. The clusters and islands mainly, as if WoC is going to do something, those are probably last on the list. Presitige classes and socieities are next important, if the sourcebooks give the DM a land to play in, the presitge classes give the players something to shoot for.
That’s a great idea. We really should describe the Clusters and Islands of Terror and Seas. I am all for that.
However, it is very, very, very hard to detail lands without overlapping copyrighted text. It would be very, very hard to detail the seas without quoting, copying or paraphrasing Ship of Horror or Neither Beast Nor Man. And if we did that we’re breaking the law and the site runs the risk of getting shut down.
Updating darklords and NPCs is also often frowned upon. WotC cracked down on sites updating classic characters and adventures early on, pretty much as soon as D&D and the OGL was released. I’m surprised the list of updated darklords on this Message Board has lasted as long as it has (this can probably be attributed to minimal traffic, limited webmaster presence, and lack of complaints. I wasn’t about to file one).
We’re going to do all we can to work for and with the fan community on this, but we’re not doing to cross any line while doing so. It may sound egotistical but I think the web and fans are better off with the FoS than without and I for one do not want to risk the site being shut down. People may not always agree with us or our methods or our take on the Land of the Mists, but they’ll probably agree that losing the Kargatane didn’t help and neither would losing the FoS.
Also, its time to update the look of the website, I mean, its third rate. A few simple HTML tricks, some paint shop images, a couple well done flash cartoons, and its golden.
I disagree with that. I find flash opening tedious, boring and overdone. They’re fun the first time but quickly get old. And unless you have vast amounts of money to throw at them they look cheesy and amateurish.
I think some new images might liven up the place but the expense of longer load times and slower traffic. It’s great in theory but pretty websites and useful websites are often not the same thing. Look at something bland like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page a giant grey/white mass of a website but one of the single most useful sites on the web. Or the site least needing an introduction: http://www.google.com/ that is 90% plain white.
Originally Posted by octavius
Also, its time to update the look of the website, I mean, its third rate. A few simple HTML tricks, some paint shop images, a couple well done flash cartoons, and its golden.
Hi, Octavius. The FoS graphics (a lot of them) were made by me (banner headings, splash page logo, etc.). The Kargatane got along well with minimal specifications for how their website appeared, and we at the FoS want to continue that tradition of less-flair-more-substance.
I find it hard to believe that the FoS website is 3rd-rate as you say, or no one would visit in the first place. From what I could gather, it's easier to navigate the website with minimal distractions.
When the FoS started to go public I supplied much of ther Photoshopped images for the site. And yes, I agree with you that we need a few more images on the site, and I'm up to making them, as long asa they don't interfere with web traffic and they don't distract visitors much. I also however agree with The_Jester in the sense that Flash animations are too faddish, and in some cases eat too much disk space. We had plans to put up Flash animations for certain areas of the website, but we decided that simple JPEGs would bring about a more "permanent" feel.
And, for the record, I never liked the Kargatane either (outside of what they did), because they wore horse blinds as well. Ego became a sinkhole, if you know what I'm sayin'.
So, basically, you're just someone who likes to be negative.
Yes, I know that some people see me as nothing but a Kargatane fan-boy, but what you are saying is nonsense. Tell me, how many other authors take the time to answer the community's concerns? How many other authors take the pride in the setting as much as the K did when they where the official site and the setting was dead?
Ego does not blind the Fraternity, nor did it blind the Kargatane. Perhaps your negativity stems from a jealousy that could simply be because these groups exist and you're not part of them. Is that it? By not being part of the Frat or the K you feel inadequate?
Seriously, how can you judge the Fraternity? They've been open for, what is it a year and a half, two years? And you expect them to have a plethora of Ravenloft goodies up? Well, they do, the USS, the campaign logs, Quoth the Raven, to name a few. You criticise the Fraternity for the quality of its netbooks, then cower when thinking about submitting your own? This double standard collapses your arguements, you can not criticise fan-writings and not submit your own for criticism.
If you think the Fraternity is of such a low quality, may I suggest that you take your meds, sit at your computer and create your own website and then let the on-line community judge. Let us see how many authors come to your site, lets see how many people sign up. Lets see if you can take the mantle of official site that the Fraternity is striving for.
Until then, leave your non-sensical ramblings for the people in your head.
Make me into whatever you want man. I really don't care. Maybe that's my problem...?
I said what I said, and if you don't wanna listen, then don't.
"Hey Spike, hey?" :P
It's cool of you to be the third man all the same. For real. We all back what we do, right?
Geez, you sure told me...
Make me into whatever you want man. I really don't care. Maybe that's my problem...?
I said what I said, and if you don't wanna listen, then don't.
"Hey Spike, hey?" :P
It's cool of you to be the third man all the same. For real. We all back what we do, right?
I'm sorry, but I genuninely didn't understand that at all.
Geez, you sure told me...
"LoL"
Make me into whatever you want man. I really don't care. Maybe that's my problem...?
Say what you want about me...I'll still sleep at night.
I said what I said, and if you don't wanna listen, then don't.
What I wrote earlier in this thread (about the FoS) is what I meant. If you disagree with what I wrote, then that's okay with me. It won't change what I wrote.
Only the FoS can do that...
"Hey Spike, hey?" :P
Looney Tunes/ Merrie Melodies.
"Spike the Bulldog and Chester the Terrier
Spike the Bulldog and Chester the Terrier are animated cartoon characters in the Warner Bros. Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies series of cartoons. Spike is a burly, gray bulldog who wears a red sweater, a brown bowler hat, and a perpetual scowl. Chester is just the opposite, small and jumpy with yellow fur and brown, perky ears.
The characters starred in only two shorts, both directed by animator Friz Freleng. The first of these films was 1952's Tree for Two. In it, Chester tells his idol Spike that he knows of a cat that they can beat up. The cat is Freleng's own Sylvester, but every time Spike thinks he has the cat cornered, a runaway zoo panther appears in Sylvester's place, thrashing the dog instead. When Chester decides to have a go of it, however, Sylvester finds himself at the little dog's mercy. By the cartoon's end, Spike and Chester have switched roles; Spike is the fawning sycophant, and Chester the smug prizefighter.
The characters' second outing came in the 1954 film Dr. Jerkyl's Hyde. Spike (here called "Alfie") is once again after Sylvester, only this time it is Sylvester himself who pummels the poor pooch, thanks to a potion that transforms him into a feline monster. Chester, of course, never sees this transformed Sylvester, thinking his buddy is being beaten by the tiny tomcat.
In both of these cartoons, Spike is performed by voice actor Mel Blanc, and Chester is performed by Stan Freberg."
It's cool of you to be the third man all the same. For real. We all back what we do, right?
Hockey term. "Third man in" refers to a player who interferes in a fight, usually to pick up for a teammate.
It's sincerely respectable that you come to your friend's (?) defense...I would do no different (if I felt they needed my assistance).
Defending opinions is one and the same.
Obviously, there's a world of difference between the languages of England and the American "street."
With respect to the free time and dedication points made earlier, maybe one group of people should maintain the site and another be responsible for the materials provided in and through that site. With multiple hats things start to and eventually become convoluted, not to mention the decrease in production.
Think yourself a good writer, then donate your time to helping others present their ideas to the community.
Another group can manage and maintain each individual area of the FoS website.
Allocate your resources (members of the community) better, is all I'm sayin'. Well, outside of what I wrote earlier.
(outside of what others have said) was lost in the ensuing scuffle. This is not "salt" on my part, this is me trying to get this thread back on track, and away from the sin bin. "Sin bin" refers to the penalty box in a hockey game. :P
Not every glass of wine contains poison y'know...
And I now wait the smarmy comments you'll use to excuse ignoring what a jackass you're being.
;)
Sometimes ya just gotta suck it up and be the martyr, just in the hopes of openin' an eye or two...
And as to the criticism, I didn't know you had to be a writer to form a valid opinion on any given author's work.
"I ought to be thy Adam..." >snicker<
I know what you're sayin', but that don't change my say none. I have as much right to drop the FoS as I do to prop the FoS. I like some things about it (dedication, community hall vibe, etc), and I dislike some things (as I have previously mentioned). Only difference 'tween me an' most is the fact that I don't pull my punches.
I may be everything that the posters here have said, or I may be none of them, but it's irrelevant because either way the problem (criticism and purpose of thread) has been skirted. Is this intentional or not...who knows? Too much "emotion" between some of us posters? Obviously.
Trim the fat, and you got a good bite o' meat. If you ain't hungry, then don't come to the table...
They give Ravenloft fans a place to do things and a place to post their work and ideas. They accept things for their netbooks from anyone, and anyone can post on the messageboards. There are numerous sites out there for Ravenloft, but none of them have been able to gather the fan presence and participation that they have.
Can they do a better job? Yes. Has the entire thing become an exercise in their egos? WEll, look at the other DnD fan site opperators and you'll find that there isn't much difference between the way they work. If anything, the Fraternity is more open in accepting material that a good number of them.
If it was doing such a bad job, fans would move elsewhere. But instead of complaining about the finished product you're making personal attacks on the guys running the site. That's where the problem lies.
But instead of complaining about the finished product you're making personal attacks on the guys running the site. That's where the problem lies.
Re-read this entire thread, and then tell me who was making personal attacks.
The rest of your last post I agree(d) with...
Geez, you sure told me...
"LoL"
Make me into whatever you want man. I really don't care. Maybe that's my problem...?
Say what you want about me...I'll still sleep at night.
I said what I said, and if you don't wanna listen, then don't.
What I wrote earlier in this thread (about the FoS) is what I meant. If you disagree with what I wrote, then that's okay with me. It won't change what I wrote.
Only the FoS can do that...
"Hey Spike, hey?" :P
Looney Tunes/ Merrie Melodies.
"Spike the Bulldog and Chester the Terrier
Spike the Bulldog and Chester the Terrier are animated cartoon characters in the Warner Bros. Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies series of cartoons. Spike is a burly, gray bulldog who wears a red sweater, a brown bowler hat, and a perpetual scowl. Chester is just the opposite, small and jumpy with yellow fur and brown, perky ears.
The characters starred in only two shorts, both directed by animator Friz Freleng. The first of these films was 1952's Tree for Two. In it, Chester tells his idol Spike that he knows of a cat that they can beat up. The cat is Freleng's own Sylvester, but every time Spike thinks he has the cat cornered, a runaway zoo panther appears in Sylvester's place, thrashing the dog instead. When Chester decides to have a go of it, however, Sylvester finds himself at the little dog's mercy. By the cartoon's end, Spike and Chester have switched roles; Spike is the fawning sycophant, and Chester the smug prizefighter.
The characters' second outing came in the 1954 film Dr. Jerkyl's Hyde. Spike (here called "Alfie") is once again after Sylvester, only this time it is Sylvester himself who pummels the poor pooch, thanks to a potion that transforms him into a feline monster. Chester, of course, never sees this transformed Sylvester, thinking his buddy is being beaten by the tiny tomcat.
In both of these cartoons, Spike is performed by voice actor Mel Blanc, and Chester is performed by Stan Freberg."
It's cool of you to be the third man all the same. For real. We all back what we do, right?
Hockey term. "Third man in" refers to a player who interferes in a fight, usually to pick up for a teammate.
It's sincerely respectable that you come to your friend's (?) defense...I would do no different (if I felt they needed my assistance).
Defending opinions is one and the same.
Obviously, there's a world of difference between the languages of England and the American "street."
With respect to the free time and dedication points made earlier, maybe one group of people should maintain the site and another be responsible for the materials provided in and through that site. With multiple hats things start to and eventually become convoluted, not to mention the decrease in production.
Think yourself a good writer, then donate your time to helping others present their ideas to the community.
Another group can manage and maintain each individual area of the FoS website.
Allocate your resources (members of the community) better, is all I'm sayin'. Well, outside of what I wrote earlier.
(outside of what others have said) was lost in the ensuing scuffle. This is not "salt" on my part, this is me trying to get this thread back on track, and away from the sin bin. "Sin bin" refers to the penalty box in a hockey game. :P
Not every glass of wine contains poison y'know...
And I now wait the smarmy comments you'll use to excuse ignoring what a jackass you're being.
;)
Sometimes ya just gotta suck it up and be the martyr, just in the hopes of openin' an eye or two...
And as to the criticism, I didn't know you had to be a writer to form a valid opinion on any given author's work.
"I ought to be thy Adam..." >snicker<
I know what you're sayin', but that don't change my say none. I have as much right to drop the FoS as I do to prop the FoS. I like some things about it (dedication, community hall vibe, etc), and I dislike some things (as I have previously mentioned). Only difference 'tween me an' most is the fact that I don't pull my punches.
I may be everything that the posters here have said, or I may be none of them, but it's irrelevant because either way the problem (criticism and purpose of thread) has been skirted. Is this intentional or not...who knows? Too much "emotion" between some of us posters? Obviously.
Trim the fat, and you got a good bite o' meat. If you ain't hungry, then don't come to the table...
They give Ravenloft fans a place to do things and a place to post their work and ideas. They accept things for their netbooks from anyone, and anyone can post on the messageboards. There are numerous sites out there for Ravenloft, but none of them have been able to gather the fan presence and participation that they have.
Can they do a better job? Yes. Has the entire thing become an exercise in their egos? WEll, look at the other DnD fan site opperators and you'll find that there isn't much difference between the way they work. If anything, the Fraternity is more open in accepting material that a good number of them.
If it was doing such a bad job, fans would move elsewhere. But instead of complaining about the finished product you're making personal attacks on the guys running the site. That's where the problem lies.
But instead of complaining about the finished product you're making personal attacks on the guys running the site. That's where the problem lies.
Re-read this entire thread, and then tell me who was making personal attacks.
The rest of your last post I agree(d) with...