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Rangers or Scouts?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the_peacebringer
Oct 14, 2005 11:09:03 Ok, this could of been in the Gulg thread but I guess it involves all of Athas.

The majority of my Judagas are Barbarians and Rangers. Should the Scout replace the Ranger in Gulg (the Ranger becoming less important in numbers, although still more present then anywhere else in the Tablelands' CS)?

I like the idea of having the Scout core class from CA instead of the Ranger as a majority in Gulg. It is true that many of the populace are more attuned to nature than anywhere else in the Tablelands. But are they to the point of them communing with nature with spells? I have a difficulty seeing a Judaga force throwing spells en masse at enemies.

The problem with the Scout is that I feel it is slightly overpowered.

Thoughts about the Scout class for DS?
PB
#2
nytcrawlr
Oct 14, 2005 11:19:38
The majority of my Judagas are Barbarians and Rangers. Should the Scout replace the Ranger in Gulg (the Ranger becoming less important in numbers, although still more present then anywhere else in the Tablelands)?

Yeah, I have debated making the Scout a regionial class for Gulg to replace Ranger if players want to go there. I've also thought about just renaming it to Judaga as well.

It doesn't look overpowered aat first glance, but maybe a side by side comparison will bring that.

I also use a spell-less Ranger in my rules (unless I go d20 Modernish), so I debated just leaving well enough alone, but to me the Scout fits more with Gulg than the Ranger class does.
#3
kalthandrix
Oct 14, 2005 11:52:49 I got noting really to add to this discussion- the only ranger in my game was wacked out last session :evillaugh.

I think that the ranger is still really will suited for Gulg- by then again I have not looked over the scout class in a long time. If you go with rangers, I would just house rule that they do not have any spell ability- I think it is dumb that DS rangers have access to spells.

But that is my opinion. IMC I removed both spell casting and the animal companion class features, but I made animal companion a feat that the players could take if tey had the wild empathy class feature. In place of the two items I tok away, I advanced their combat style class features slightly- giving them an extra feat for their combat style at third level.
#4
ruhl-than_sage
Oct 14, 2005 13:31:32 I don't really see why you think the ranger would be more common in Gulg than in other areas. Elf tribes, Thri-Kreen tribes, Halfling tribes, hunters and trackers living throughout the tablelands; it seems to me that they would be quite pervasive. On top of that the scout seems like it could be common enough, if allowed everywhere, not just in Gulg. Honestly I don't see any particular reason to make it a gulg class. If anything, its focus on mobility would suggest it as primarily an elven and maybe kreen class.
#5
the_peacebringer
Oct 14, 2005 14:49:10
I don't really see why you think the ranger would be more common in Gulg than in other areas. Elf tribes, Thri-Kreen tribes, Halfling tribes, hunters and trackers living throughout the tablelands; it seems to me that they would be quite pervasive. On top of that the scout seems like it could be common enough, if allowed everywhere, not just in Gulg. Honestly I don't see any particular reason to make it a gulg class. If anything, its focus on mobility would suggest it as primarily an elven and maybe kreen class.

City-wise, Sage, city-wise. :D
(Sorry if I wasn't clear enough)

Yes, in the lands outside the cities, many have "taken" the Ranger or Scout class in order to survive, but inside the CS, Gulg would have a majority being Ranger/Scout (Hunter Nobles, Judaga and even gladiators of the forest arena) compared to other cities.
#6
Pennarin
Oct 14, 2005 18:58:35 I'm starting to like rangers-with-spells for DS, but I also like rangers-without, so I guess the ranger could be left as is and the option of substitution levels be offered that would replace overall spell advancement with something worth it.
#7
Grummore
Oct 15, 2005 10:08:44 After 5 sessions of experimenting the scout (in my game), I can only concur to the same conclusion as you did in the first place. It IS a bit overpowered. At least around level 3 to 5. Over these level, I could not verify.
#8
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 15, 2005 10:17:22 I use an updated version of the Ranger class that Athas.org had been working hard on prior to 3.5e, when they suddenly shifted back to the standard Ranger. I might eventually get it posted on my site, to be included with each of the other classes I've worked on.
#9
ruhl-than_sage
Oct 15, 2005 18:18:41
After 5 sessions of experimenting the scout (in my game), I can only concur to the same conclusion as you did in the first place. It IS a bit overpowered. At least around level 3 to 5. Over these level, I could not verify.

In what ways have you found it to be overpowered? Is it mostly the benefits of the skirmish ability?

I would imagine that the skirmish ability ends up being less powerfull once charcters start getting multiple attacks, as the scout couldn't really benefit from multiple attacks and the skirmish abilities extra damage at the same time.

Though their is still an upside to using skirmish over multiple attacks, doing extra damage on one attack at your highest attack bonus is probably better than getting multiple strikes unless you are attacking multiple foes.

Now that I think about it. I can actually see Cleave and Greater Cleave being abused horribly by the Scout class. Its pretty easy to kill something in one shot when your getting multiple dice of extra damage and the extra dice of damage would apply on each successive attack in the case of Greater Cleave.
#10
Grummore
Oct 16, 2005 8:56:48
In what ways have you found it to be overpowered? Is it mostly the benefits of the skirmish ability?

I would imagine that the skirmish ability ends up being less powerfull once charcters start getting multiple attacks, as the scout couldn't really benefit from multiple attacks and the skirmish abilities extra damage at the same time.

Yes, eventually it's what would happen. And it's what I meant. From the beginning of the campaign, the scout was slightly better than the other classes (in battle) but they are now at level 5 and soon 6 and it seem that the balance is coming back.
#11
ruhl-than_sage
Oct 16, 2005 15:52:34 Does anybody have any ideas as to how this minor imbalance can be fixed? Or do you even think it need to be? out of the PHB 1st level wizards are by far the weakest class, but high level wizards the arguably strongest. And a 1st level Fighter is quite powerful, but high level fighters are very limited in comparsion to most other classes. Clerics are pretty balanced until suddenly at 7th level they gain the ability to cast Divine Might (or is it power), at which point if they have a round to prepare they are as about as good as a fighter at combat, but (if they are good at least) with the ability to cast healing spells spontaneous.
#12
terminus_vortexa
Oct 16, 2005 17:11:29
Or do you even think it need to be? out of the PHB 1st level wizards are by far the weakest class, but high level wizards the arguably strongest. .

And most psionic classes leave even wizards in the dust at high levels,too. Scouts and rangers don't seem overpowered to me at all, once you get past lv. 5
#13
ruhl-than_sage
Oct 19, 2005 17:37:12
And most psionic classes leave even wizards in the dust at high levels,too. Scouts and rangers don't seem overpowered to me at all, once you get past lv. 5

Personally I would say that psionics handbook is in general a little overpowered. Which is why I've made a few fixes to realign things a bit. The first is the Arcane Magic is better than Psionics house rule I use and the second is a collection of changes to individual powers like the energy one for instance, I make my players choose one energy type when they take the power, and if they want to they can learn other energy types by taking the power again.

As a stylistic change I have entirely eliminated the discipline of Metacreativity, because I just don't buy that ectoplasm jive, but even though the decision was mae more for reasons of fluff, I guess that helps to make psionics less powerful too, because it creates a whole field of things that can only be done with magic.
#14
Kamelion
Oct 19, 2005 18:24:15 There is a scout PC in my DS game (played by crazy_cat). The character has been in play for quite a few sessions and I don't find it overpowered. I'm also not sure that direct comparisons with either the ranger or the rogue are very useful - the class fills a fairly new niche as a skirmish specialist. When the scout is able to exercise mobility in combat, he holds his own as well as the other characters do in their respective specialties. When the scout's mobility is limited, he suffers a noticeable loss in power. To me, it's the same issue of having a rogue be caught in a toe-to-toe fight: the rogue shouldn't be there. Each class has its own area of specialisation - the scout's involves running about the battlefield as a skirmish force and, well, scout. Remove a character from his area of specialisation and he will be much less useful. In short, the scout isn't overpowered - he has an area of considerable expertise but is somewhat less effective in other situations.

As an aside, for a real alternative to the ranger, check out the Borderer class from the ogl Conan rules - no spellcasting, most of the ranger's abilities and a couple of other cool tricks besides.
#15
nytcrawlr
Oct 20, 2005 7:32:47
As an aside, for a real alternative to the ranger, check out the Borderer class from the ogl Conan rules - no spellcasting, most of the ranger's abilities and a couple of other cool tricks besides.

Yeah, I've been meaning to look over that again. I only skimmed it last time and wasn't too impressed.
#16
the_peacebringer
Oct 21, 2005 7:23:21
There is a scout PC in my DS game (played by crazy_cat). The character has been in play for quite a few sessions and I don't find it overpowered. I'm also not sure that direct comparisons with either the ranger or the rogue are very useful - the class fills a fairly new niche as a skirmish specialist. When the scout is able to exercise mobility in combat, he holds his own as well as the other characters do in their respective specialties. When the scout's mobility is limited, he suffers a noticeable loss in power. To me, it's the same issue of having a rogue be caught in a toe-to-toe fight: the rogue shouldn't be there. Each class has its own area of specialisation - the scout's involves running about the battlefield as a skirmish force and, well, scout. Remove a character from his area of specialisation and he will be much less useful. In short, the scout isn't overpowered - he has an area of considerable expertise but is somewhat less effective in other situations.

As an aside, for a real alternative to the ranger, check out the Borderer class from the ogl Conan rules - no spellcasting, most of the ranger's abilities and a couple of other cool tricks besides.

Good to know, thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_peacebringer Oct 14, 2005 11:09:03	Ok, this could of been in the Gulg thread but I guess it involves all of Athas. The majority of my Judagas are Barbarians and Rangers. Should the Scout replace the Ranger in Gulg (the Ranger becoming less important in numbers, although still more present then anywhere else in the Tablelands' CS)? I like the idea of having the Scout core class from CA instead of the Ranger as a majority in Gulg. It is true that many of the populace are more attuned to nature than anywhere else in the Tablelands. But are they to the point of them communing with nature with spells? I have a difficulty seeing a Judaga force throwing spells en masse at enemies. The problem with the Scout is that I feel it is slightly overpowered. Thoughts about the Scout class for DS? PB
#2 nytcrawlr Oct 14, 2005 11:19:38	The majority of my Judagas are Barbarians and Rangers. Should the Scout replace the Ranger in Gulg (the Ranger becoming less important in numbers, although still more present then anywhere else in the Tablelands)? Yeah, I have debated making the Scout a regionial class for Gulg to replace Ranger if players want to go there. I've also thought about just renaming it to Judaga as well. It doesn't look overpowered aat first glance, but maybe a side by side comparison will bring that. I also use a spell-less Ranger in my rules (unless I go d20 Modernish), so I debated just leaving well enough alone, but to me the Scout fits more with Gulg than the Ranger class does.
#3 kalthandrix Oct 14, 2005 11:52:49	I got noting really to add to this discussion- the only ranger in my game was wacked out last session :evillaugh. I think that the ranger is still really will suited for Gulg- by then again I have not looked over the scout class in a long time. If you go with rangers, I would just house rule that they do not have any spell ability- I think it is dumb that DS rangers have access to spells. But that is my opinion. IMC I removed both spell casting and the animal companion class features, but I made animal companion a feat that the players could take if tey had the wild empathy class feature. In place of the two items I tok away, I advanced their combat style class features slightly- giving them an extra feat for their combat style at third level.
#4 ruhl-than_sage Oct 14, 2005 13:31:32	I don't really see why you think the ranger would be more common in Gulg than in other areas. Elf tribes, Thri-Kreen tribes, Halfling tribes, hunters and trackers living throughout the tablelands; it seems to me that they would be quite pervasive. On top of that the scout seems like it could be common enough, if allowed everywhere, not just in Gulg. Honestly I don't see any particular reason to make it a gulg class. If anything, its focus on mobility would suggest it as primarily an elven and maybe kreen class.
#5 the_peacebringer Oct 14, 2005 14:49:10	I don't really see why you think the ranger would be more common in Gulg than in other areas. Elf tribes, Thri-Kreen tribes, Halfling tribes, hunters and trackers living throughout the tablelands; it seems to me that they would be quite pervasive. On top of that the scout seems like it could be common enough, if allowed everywhere, not just in Gulg. Honestly I don't see any particular reason to make it a gulg class. If anything, its focus on mobility would suggest it as primarily an elven and maybe kreen class. City-wise, Sage, city-wise. :D (Sorry if I wasn't clear enough) Yes, in the lands outside the cities, many have "taken" the Ranger or Scout class in order to survive, but inside the CS, Gulg would have a majority being Ranger/Scout (Hunter Nobles, Judaga and even gladiators of the forest arena) compared to other cities.
#6 Pennarin Oct 14, 2005 18:58:35	I'm starting to like rangers-with-spells for DS, but I also like rangers-without, so I guess the ranger could be left as is and the option of substitution levels be offered that would replace overall spell advancement with something worth it.
#7 Grummore Oct 15, 2005 10:08:44	After 5 sessions of experimenting the scout (in my game), I can only concur to the same conclusion as you did in the first place. It IS a bit overpowered. At least around level 3 to 5. Over these level, I could not verify.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 15, 2005 10:17:22	I use an updated version of the Ranger class that Athas.org had been working hard on prior to 3.5e, when they suddenly shifted back to the standard Ranger. I might eventually get it posted on my site, to be included with each of the other classes I've worked on.
#9 ruhl-than_sage Oct 15, 2005 18:18:41	After 5 sessions of experimenting the scout (in my game), I can only concur to the same conclusion as you did in the first place. It IS a bit overpowered. At least around level 3 to 5. Over these level, I could not verify. In what ways have you found it to be overpowered? Is it mostly the benefits of the skirmish ability? I would imagine that the skirmish ability ends up being less powerfull once charcters start getting multiple attacks, as the scout couldn't really benefit from multiple attacks and the skirmish abilities extra damage at the same time. Though their is still an upside to using skirmish over multiple attacks, doing extra damage on one attack at your highest attack bonus is probably better than getting multiple strikes unless you are attacking multiple foes. Now that I think about it. I can actually see Cleave and Greater Cleave being abused horribly by the Scout class. Its pretty easy to kill something in one shot when your getting multiple dice of extra damage and the extra dice of damage would apply on each successive attack in the case of Greater Cleave.
#10 Grummore Oct 16, 2005 8:56:48	In what ways have you found it to be overpowered? Is it mostly the benefits of the skirmish ability? I would imagine that the skirmish ability ends up being less powerfull once charcters start getting multiple attacks, as the scout couldn't really benefit from multiple attacks and the skirmish abilities extra damage at the same time. Yes, eventually it's what would happen. And it's what I meant. From the beginning of the campaign, the scout was slightly better than the other classes (in battle) but they are now at level 5 and soon 6 and it seem that the balance is coming back.
#11 ruhl-than_sage Oct 16, 2005 15:52:34	Does anybody have any ideas as to how this minor imbalance can be fixed? Or do you even think it need to be? out of the PHB 1st level wizards are by far the weakest class, but high level wizards the arguably strongest. And a 1st level Fighter is quite powerful, but high level fighters are very limited in comparsion to most other classes. Clerics are pretty balanced until suddenly at 7th level they gain the ability to cast Divine Might (or is it power), at which point if they have a round to prepare they are as about as good as a fighter at combat, but (if they are good at least) with the ability to cast healing spells spontaneous.
#12 terminus_vortexa Oct 16, 2005 17:11:29	Or do you even think it need to be? out of the PHB 1st level wizards are by far the weakest class, but high level wizards the arguably strongest. . And most psionic classes leave even wizards in the dust at high levels,too. Scouts and rangers don't seem overpowered to me at all, once you get past lv. 5
#13 ruhl-than_sage Oct 19, 2005 17:37:12	And most psionic classes leave even wizards in the dust at high levels,too. Scouts and rangers don't seem overpowered to me at all, once you get past lv. 5 Personally I would say that psionics handbook is in general a little overpowered. Which is why I've made a few fixes to realign things a bit. The first is the Arcane Magic is better than Psionics house rule I use and the second is a collection of changes to individual powers like the energy one for instance, I make my players choose one energy type when they take the power, and if they want to they can learn other energy types by taking the power again. As a stylistic change I have entirely eliminated the discipline of Metacreativity, because I just don't buy that ectoplasm jive, but even though the decision was mae more for reasons of fluff, I guess that helps to make psionics less powerful too, because it creates a whole field of things that can only be done with magic.
#14 Kamelion Oct 19, 2005 18:24:15	There is a scout PC in my DS game (played by crazy_cat). The character has been in play for quite a few sessions and I don't find it overpowered. I'm also not sure that direct comparisons with either the ranger or the rogue are very useful - the class fills a fairly new niche as a skirmish specialist. When the scout is able to exercise mobility in combat, he holds his own as well as the other characters do in their respective specialties. When the scout's mobility is limited, he suffers a noticeable loss in power. To me, it's the same issue of having a rogue be caught in a toe-to-toe fight: the rogue shouldn't be there. Each class has its own area of specialisation - the scout's involves running about the battlefield as a skirmish force and, well, scout. Remove a character from his area of specialisation and he will be much less useful. In short, the scout isn't overpowered - he has an area of considerable expertise but is somewhat less effective in other situations. As an aside, for a real alternative to the ranger, check out the Borderer class from the ogl Conan rules - no spellcasting, most of the ranger's abilities and a couple of other cool tricks besides.
#15 nytcrawlr Oct 20, 2005 7:32:47	As an aside, for a real alternative to the ranger, check out the Borderer class from the ogl Conan rules - no spellcasting, most of the ranger's abilities and a couple of other cool tricks besides. Yeah, I've been meaning to look over that again. I only skimmed it last time and wasn't too impressed.
#16 the_peacebringer Oct 21, 2005 7:23:21	There is a scout PC in my DS game (played by crazy_cat). The character has been in play for quite a few sessions and I don't find it overpowered. I'm also not sure that direct comparisons with either the ranger or the rogue are very useful - the class fills a fairly new niche as a skirmish specialist. When the scout is able to exercise mobility in combat, he holds his own as well as the other characters do in their respective specialties. When the scout's mobility is limited, he suffers a noticeable loss in power. To me, it's the same issue of having a rogue be caught in a toe-to-toe fight: the rogue shouldn't be there. Each class has its own area of specialisation - the scout's involves running about the battlefield as a skirmish force and, well, scout. Remove a character from his area of specialisation and he will be much less useful. In short, the scout isn't overpowered - he has an area of considerable expertise but is somewhat less effective in other situations. As an aside, for a real alternative to the ranger, check out the Borderer class from the ogl Conan rules - no spellcasting, most of the ranger's abilities and a couple of other cool tricks besides. Good to know, thanks.