However, I looked through the D20 S&S Player's Guide and I saw a timeline of the demi-plane of Ravenloft there. In it there was a date for an event listed in the year 666 for when the first book of ezra was created. I was greatly disturbed by this. I have strong religious beliefs and this was kind of alarming to me. I am asking you all out there that are knowledgeable of Ravenloft if this timeline has ever appeared in any of the TSR Ravenloft products and if so did this particular date appear in there in the same year? Or can I chalk this up to something that White Wolf must have done? I'm sure this was on purpose because it is pretty obvious....did they do it for dark purposes since Ravenloft is supposed to be a dark gothic setting? I was struck by this date and disturbed because of my strong religious beliefs. I'm hoping this is something that White Wolf had done and that this is not the fault of White Wolf or earlier TSR products. Please help me. If this was White Wolf only I'll simply try to look through the TSR 2.0 stuff instead and anxiously await to see if Wizards of the Coast ever bring back this setting.
Ravenloft isn't our world, and our numerology isn't included. You might think that they were making a satanic reference by using the number 666, but there are other religious groups that claim it is satanic for including magic, period.
You're reading far too much into it. It had nothing to do with trying to be evil or shock people, it has to do with Ravenloft coming into creation in 351 and only having 405 years (most of those plotted out) to add events into.
You don't like it, take a pen and change it to 667 or 665 in the book. you'll never have to see it again. But to discount an entire run of 20 products just because one includes a number that can be construted as demonic is reactionary at best. Perhaps you should read the rest of the book and make a judgement whether or not it's evil rather than throw the entire book away because of three stupid numbers.
As for the rest of the setting....from what I know about it I haven't been offended by anything else I've seen thus far. I don't have a big problem with vampires and such.
As for the rest of the setting....from what I know about it I haven't been offended by anything else I've seen thus far. I don't have a big problem with vampires and such.
So you have no problems with the worhipping of heathen gods, pacts with demons and other dark powers, the selling of souls, serial murderers/rapists, torture, ghosts, hauntings, corruption, sin, hedonism, vivisection, gothic horror, etc., but the number 666 bothers you? Someone's priorities are a bit out of whack, I would say.
I really haven't read about most of what you have stated in there about that stuff in the Ravenloft campaign books. Are you seeing that material in them? Or did you read about that stuff in the novels?
Get the basic book. Read it. If it offends you, or if you don't like it - return it. Or sell it on Ebay. If you have strong convictions about your faith, I doubt a game will make a difference one way or another.
I really haven't read about most of what you have stated in there about that stuff in the Ravenloft campaign books. Are you seeing that material in them? Or did you read about that stuff in the novels?
So you read the whole BoVD and NEVER noticed that everything he quoted is in THAT book, and NOT in the Ravenloft Setting?
The 14-yars-old idea of evil described in the BoVD (I'm not saying it was a bad product, mind you...) has NOTHING to do with a Ravenloft campaign.
Talking about numerology, as far as I know, the number 666 isn't exactly making a very concrete political reference to the devil, but to Nero. (First named in the biblical apocalypse.)
The satanist element was added by Crowley and consorts in the late 19th century, while in the middle ages this chiffre was essentially used by cabalists to signal destruction or persecution by the law. I even recall it being used as a sign for the Holy Inquisition in renaissance times. So one shouldn't worry too much if one finds it in any literaric resource. Pop culture has lately made that number synonimous for the devil, literature really hasn't.
As far as Ravenloft, now talking about good taste in general, the setting' strong point is that it lets people fight AGAINST the darkness, not FOR it, as in WoD. So, except that you really demand it, you won't be obliged to play something repulsive or tell of evil things.
Besides, again in general, a thought and a fact are autonomous. A reference by a number, a turned cross or whatever shouldn't offend you except if they were made with the clear purpose to do so. In Ravenloft, such things certainly weren't.
Yours,
Rafael
But I will also answer your question: Since most of the historical details of the Ezra religion were never revealed in the 2.0 books, there would be no mention of the 1st book of Ezra being written in that year.
The whole "4 books of Ezra" thing was first introduced in the Non-canon article Anchors of Faith by John Mangrum, in the Kargatane's Book of Secrets. When the Kargatane went on to write much of the early books in the WW 3rd edition line, most of his excellent work on fleshing out the Church made it into the canon products. In that article, it mentions that Yakov Dilisnya was born in 641, and he wrote the 1st book in his 25th year. Although the math is obvious, it does not use the number 666 there. Although it does in the timeline of the succesion of the head of the church (Praesidius). "Praesidius Yakov Dilisnya (666-698)"
So White Wolf is not to blame. If anyone is, it's John Mangrum. ;) But John does not seem like the type to use a number for shock value. His work speaks for itself, and is not about shock, but detail and mood. Obviously I can't speak for him and he could pop in at any moment to correct me, but I suspect he probably chose a birth year for Yakov, and an age to write the book and when adding them up gave 666, he didn't care one way or the other.
) Anyway, before the moderators lock this thread down for discussing real world religions, just wanna wish everyone a Happy Sukkos!Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I'm not sure how seriously one should take 666 since, depending on how you calculate the gematria, the number of the beast may really be 616.
John Mangrum, who wrote the Ravenloft timeline, does post here occasionally and while I have no idea if he'll wish to weigh in on this, I suspect that if he noticed the date at all, he probably thought the coincidence was interesting (or maybe even funny) but of no more significance than those wacky Lincoln-Kennedy coincidences people sometimes get worked up over.
I knew what I was doing when I did it. I could explain the various rationales, but honestly, I'm not so inclined.
I doubt "This will align the setting with my Dark Master's will" was one of them. :D
I doubt "This will align the setting with my Dark Master's will" was one of them. :D
I knew what I was doing when I did it. I could explain the various rationales, but honestly, I'm not so inclined.
Fair 'nuff. I just wanted to avoid putting words in your mouth.
Regarding the "666-Nero" reference, that is only one school of belief. Many Christians, myself included, do believe that the number references a person who has yet to come. But that is really beside the point in this discussion.
I would say that the number probably was used for "shock value." Do I think that the writers are satanists? No.
Another thing to think about is that the 1st Edition Manual of the Planes noted that the Abyss had 666 layers. I personally changed it to 667.
As a person of religious conviction (I am a Born-Again Christian) who just happens to enjoy Ravenloft, I thought that I'd post my two cents:
Regarding the "666-Nero" reference, that is only one school of belief. Many Christians, myself included, do believe that the number references a person who has yet to come. But that is really beside the point in this discussion.
I would say that the number probably was used for "shock value." Do I think that the writers are satanists? No.
Another thing to think about is that the 1st Edition Manual of the Planes noted that the Abyss had 666 layers. I personally changed it to 667.
Last I heard the farthest KNOWN layer of the Abyss is 777.
I grew up Roman Catholic, and even in high school had nuns "teaching" me (the school was joined to a convent), and am instantly reminded of those old videos they made us watch about how Dungeons and Dragons was satanic, how Masters of the Universe was satanic in nature, and all other such nonsense that would make a person growing up in this century laugh out loud.
It disturbs me, a person who very rarely gets disturbed, that religion still holds such a grip on people. And I'm only laughing out of disbelief...
Just remember they are only numbers. They won't bite you.
Last I heard the farthest KNOWN layer of the Abyss is 777.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just stating what was in the 1st edition book.
Don't get how that adds up to 666. Don't get how that became identified with the Satan. But that's how it is for certain people.
I always believed it came from the Book of Revelations, 13:18; "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (King James version)
I always believed it came from the Book of Revelations, 13:18; "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (King James version)
Don't alot of scholars agree that the book of Revelations is merely a thinly disguised critique of the Roman Empire anyway?
Scholars all have different schools of thought and all think the others are dead wrong.
d'oh!!
Last I heard the farthest KNOWN layer of the Abyss is 777.
What product listed a 777 layer of the abyss (especially since 7 is seen as a positive number hence 7 heavens)? Was it a WOTC product. Originally in first edition there were 666 layers of the abyss, but in second edition they said there were infinite layers of the abyss, but they never mentioned a layer lower than 65*, thus unofficially still using 666 as a benchmark. They did the same thing in every 3rd edition product I have ever seen.
Anybody who whines about the date 666 is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. If you take the number 666 that seriously you should listen to Jack Chick and stay away from roleplaying.
I really haven't read about most of what you have stated in there about that stuff in the Ravenloft campaign books. Are you seeing that material in them? Or did you read about that stuff in the novels?
Are you serious?
So you have no problems with the worhipping of heathen gods,
You are aware that all non-Christian deities are by definition heathen, yes? Such as all those detailed in all D&D books? And several Ravenloft do use real-world religions; Har-Akir and Forlorn come to mind. They haven't even changed the names. See also G'henna.
pacts with demons and other dark powers,
See, Inajira. Or the fact that there is a sourcebook called "Van Richten's Guid to Fiends".
the selling of souls,
See the above comment.
serial murderers/rapists,
Malken. Bloody Jack. The Gentleman Caller. The Midnight Slasher. Ivana Boritsi. Etc. While **** is rarely mentioned in Ravenloft, it has not been ignored.
torture,
Vlad Drakov. The entire country of Falkovnia, come to think about it.
ghosts,
You heard of a place called Mordentshire?
hauntings,
And the House on Gryphon Hill?
corruption,
You may have also noticed a section in the DMG called Powers Checks, detailing the descent into darkness by those who accept it? Which is generally only used for PCs?
sin,
See above, notably what causes players to have to roll on that table.
hedonism,
See again Ivana Boritsi.
vivisection,
Azalin. Victor Mordenheim. Van Richten's Guide to the Created. The Weathermay-Foxgrove twins, unless you regard that bit in Van Richten's Guid to the Mists as a typo*
gothic horror,
You must be playing Prince Valiant the RPG, right?
etc.,
Anything else you've not seen?
Morrigan
* which I do, but that doesn't change the point that it's still mentioned in the gamebooks.
: 
(need a shakeshead smiley!)Best. Troll. EVAR!
Matthew L. Martin
I don't see anything else in the setting so far that bothers me too much. If I can take the Book of Vile Darkness then Ravenloft seems to be a bit less harsh.
I think you have hit the issue on the head. Ravenloft is much more about exploring the nature of humans (or creatures that are sympathizable to humans). It's not about summoning demons and devils to wreck havoc and destruction on the world.
The whole campaign setting is about those who have given in to their evil selves and now are punished for it. In it, the choices between moral and immoral acts is very important for your characters - moreso than in any other campaign setting.
Don't forget the main moral message about Ravenloft, which is "There, but for the grace of God, go I". If properly done, Ravenloft serves as a good cautionary tale about the dangers of straying from the path...
Hope you enjoy the campaign setting!
If I'm reading a in joke the 666 might be the Church of Ezras fascination w/ numerology.The number itself means nothing in and of itself.The number 666 comes after 665 and before 667. Its like skipping the number 13 on a building.(which has been done with a famous building in N.Y.C.)
There is actually a 666 Fifth Ave. in New York. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it has a 13th floor.
Is there a clinical term for fear of the numbers 666?
Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia, apparently.
it was actually one of the best and most successful campaigns i've run outside Dark Sun. perhaps it was the number that lent me the diabolically enhanced DMing power? i suppose i'm doomed to burn in the afterlife...with ghandi and the other heathens...oh...and that dude with 666 on his license plate...
but seriously, i wouldn't take offense to the number or the games or whatnot. it's all in good fun, no virgins are being sacrificed and there are much much MUCH greater evils in the world than a lil number in a lil book...human evils that have cold and uncaring will and purpose...
relax everyone.
it's all in good fun, no virgins are being sacrificed
The only real-life "virgin sacrifices" i've seen in D&D is the virgin guys that are willfully sacrificing their chances of ever seeing a woman naked...
i ran a year and half long campaign based entirely on the 666th layer of the Abyss entitled, The Root of All Evil...
it was actually one of the best and most successful campaigns i've run outside Dark Sun. perhaps it was the number that lent me the diabolically enhanced DMing power? i suppose i'm doomed to burn in the afterlife...with ghandi and the other heathens...
I had fun reading Dante, The Inferno and sending player characters through Hell according tot he book. Yes, I know Role Aids had the supplement to hell and back, but iwas nothing like the book, so the party had to go through all nine levels, and the city of Dis. Boy, they hated me.
The only real-life "virgin sacrifices" i've seen in D&D is the virgin guys that are willfully sacrificing their chances of ever seeing a woman naked...
man i'm cryin' on that one...
I had fun reading Dante, The Inferno and sending player characters through Hell according tot he book. Yes, I know Role Aids had the supplement to hell and back, but iwas nothing like the book, so the party had to go through all nine levels, and the city of Dis. Boy, they hated me.
sweet, it was much along the same lines. it was founded upon the idea that the 666th layer was actually a prison for an evil far more ancient than the multiverse itself...an evil from which all evil and all layers of the abyss was descended...a vile, corruptive, formless, living darkness that twists and distorts all it touches. the only way in to this prison is to walk all 665 layers, one to the other, through a series of portals, each with a special key, and only one key to return. needless to say it was a very long and harrowing campaign, but very fulfilling when all was complete...
Mmmkay people, move along!! There's nothing to see here!!
I just checked the revised copy, I have for Ravenloft 2nd. ed. the date 666 is not mentioned.
I don't think the Church of Ezra was around in the Red Box, it came a few years later. As for the 666 BC thing, that got Warduke5150 so upset, that was in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting for 3.0.
others have proposed many a solution to take care of the perceived date problem, from changing the date to moving the entire calendar up by one year. Whatever suits. BUT! But it was pointed out by the authour that it WAS purposeful. Maybe that suggests that, really, if you belive so strongly that your soul is in danger, perhaps you shouldn't be playing these games because in order to play at horror, somebody has to play the hero... and somebody HAS to play the Evil One.
I happen to have no problem with that at all. And I feel that God loves me for it anyways. Biblical stories are beautiful, moving and resonate deeply within us. But, keep in mind, despite their revelatory nature: when you hold a Bible, you hold 2000 + years of decisions made by wealthy Cardinals as to what to include and what not to, as well as many decades of translation...
So, at least PART of that story comes from humans.
best of luck with the setting.
---
My feeling as to why that date was chosen? Simple. In Ravenloft, that is to Ravenloft native, that number would have no negative association whatsoever, but would instead be seen (by Ezran faithful) as a holy number. Now Mr. Mangrum would have recognised that, as real-world readers from (generally) Christian upbringings, that number would HAVE to seem significant. We would associate all osrts of dark meanings to it.
but consider other faiths in Ravenloft: Zakhata is a fake god; The Lawgiver (eg: Bane) is a DEAD god; the Morninglord is/was a Vampire... what about Ezra? Yakov Dilysnia... would you trust a mad Dilysnia? So, the number makes you wonder: was there more to that "revelation" Yakov got? That's how we see it aywyas!
that may not have been the intention, but that's part of the twisted beauty of playing a cleric in Ravenloft: that element of doubt and holding on to belief in the face fo doubt. 9With the opposite of blind devitions to obvious fallacies not far behind either. Nothing in Ravenloft should be black and white. Especially not the gods! ;) )
Now, I suggest you to say that in your campaign Ravenloft's "year-zero" is in fact "year minus 528"; the First Book will have been penned in year 138, and probably your campaign will end before year 666 is ever reached, so removing this burden from your shoulders.
Have fun playing.