Trogolodytes -the forgotten race? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Trogolodytes -the forgotten race? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
havard
04-29-08, 01:38 AM Why don't the Trogolodytes have their own nation etc?

Are they the forgotten race?

Or were they simply postponed for "PC8 - Realms of the Reptile Folk" detailing Trogolodytes, Lizardmen, Gatormen, Caymen, Frogmen, Newtlings, Tortles, Snappers, Chameleon Men and Sis'thiks.

Any ideas for the Trogolodytes or any of the other reptile races for that matter?

Havard
Lo_Zompatore
04-29-08, 03:12 AM IIRC the Amalur Lowlands in western Davania (see "Davania" entry in PWAII and PWAIII for details) do roughly describe a troglodyte society. Or are they simly lizard men?
Cthulhudrew
04-29-08, 10:46 AM Or were they simply postponed for "PC8 - Realms of the Reptile Folk" detailing Trogolodytes, Lizardmen, Gatormen, Caymen, Frogmen, Newtlings, Tortles, Snappers, Chameleon Men and Sis'thiks.

PC8? What were PC 5, 6, and 7? :)

(I'd guess one would be undead, one maybe "Furries"- rakasta, lupins, etc., but what about the third?)
Rhialto
04-29-08, 02:50 PM PC8? What were PC 5, 6, and 7? :)

(I'd guess one would be undead, one maybe "Furries"- rakasta, lupins, etc., but what about the third?)

Dragons as PCs? I recall there was a Bruce Heard dragon magazine article detailing some funky rules for dragons once.
havard
04-29-08, 03:43 PM IIRC the Amalur Lowlands in western Davania (see "Davania" entry in PWAII and PWAIII for details) do roughly describe a troglodyte society. Or are they simly lizard men?

Yes, you are right! The Amaluri are mainly tribes of "advanced lizardmen" (whatever that means), but these also have enslaved Trogolodytes working for them. Well spotted. This can be tied nicely in with Mishler's Serpentine Empire btw.

Another good place for Trogolodytes would be the Shadowdeep I suppose, as these are usually cave dwelling people.

Cthulhudrew, I guess I threw out 8 as just a random number, but I agree Undead and Furries would likely be first. Rhialto is on the right track with Dragons I think; it should be something ala Council of Wyrms. Then Giants should also have their own PC book, even if Sea Giants have already been introduced.

To summarize:

PC 5: Undead (with details on the Malpheggi)
PC 6: "Furries" (Perhaps with Patera?)
PC 7: Dragons (with details on the Wyrmsteeth region)
PC 8: Giants (with details on the Altan Tepes mountains)
PC 9: Lizardfolk (Savage Coast)
PC 10: Elementals
PC 11: Living constructs
PC 12: Nightmare Races

I'm getting carried away again aren't I? :embarrass

Havard
Hugin
05-02-08, 03:33 PM I've always wondered, are Troglodytes the same as the Lizard-Men?
Cthulhudrew
05-02-08, 06:17 PM I've always wondered, are Troglodytes the same as the Lizard-Men?

No. They're similar, but a different race (or species, at any rate). Lizard Men are basically just humanoid lizards, while Troglodytes are basically humanoid chameleons (with an additional "stink gland" ability). They are (or should be) very closely related, though.
TraverseTravis
05-03-08, 04:10 PM Cthulhudrew, I guess I threw out 8 as just a random number, but I agree Undead and Furries would likely be first. Rhialto is on the right track with Dragons I think; it should be something ala Council of Wyrms. Then Giants should also have their own PC book, even if Sea Giants have already been introduced.

To summarize:

PC 5: Undead (with details on the Malpheggi)
PC 6: "Furries" (Perhaps with Patera?)
PC 7: Dragons (with details on the Wyrmsteeth region)
PC 8: Giants (with details on the Altan Tepes mountains)
PC 9: Lizardfolk (Savage Coast)
PC 10: Elementals
PC 11: Living constructs
PC 12: Nightmare Races

I'm getting carried away again aren't I? :embarrass

Even if you are getting carried away, I like it.

Some more ideas:

These Creature Crucibles would be like Mystara-specific versions of 3e's Savage Species. They'd be released in both 4e and OD&D versions, with each 4e race being an OD&D class.

For the Undead Creature Crucible, I suppose it would be a Mystara-specific version of 3e's Libris Mortis, which supported undead PCs. What races would be included? A few that come to mind: Nosferatus, Vampires, Liches, Arasheem (undead araneas), Ghosts, Wyrds (those undead elves), Banshees, Velyas (those underwater vampires), and one of the weirdest monsters in D&D, the Phygorax (an intelligent undead fish). Maybe Boldavia would be the sample country? Maybe there could be Velyas and Phygoraxes in the waters of Boldavia.

I especially like the idea of the Nightmare Dimension CC: Besides the races that are already associated with the ND (the Diaboli and Malfera) it could include the various intelligent Aberrations of Mystara such as the Kopru and Beholders, and so would be a Mystara-specific version of 3e's Lords of Madness (which had character classes for Aberrations). And...there'd be a world map of the bizarro "Nightmare Mystara". Aratsym(?)* might perhaps be a cube-shaped planet, and would be mapped using garish (purple, green, and orange) GAZ-style hexes. The map would show the bounds of the various regions of Aratsym (such as Nightmare equivalents of the KW and SC) and dominions (the various countries of the Nightmare races). Most countries would be Diaboli since they are the "humans" of Aratsym. *(The backwards name is inspired by how "Bizarro Earth" from DC comics is also known as "Htrae")

For the Elementals' CC: it could include Aerial Servants, Desert Ghosts, Anemos, Krysts, Helions, Hydraxes, Eolians, Erdeens, Pyrophors, Undines, Djinni, and Efreet. It'd be neat if this book revealed the four planet names and world maps for the four Elemental planets that co-exist with the Prime Planar world of Mystara/Urt, as described in the Immortals Rules' OD&D cosmology. Each world map would delineate the planets' regions and dominions. The maps would have their own weird hex-symbols specific to Elemental terrain.

Could do a similar CC for the Spirit World.

Another CC: GARGANTUA: Land of the Giant Monsters! could detail the dominion of the wizard Gargantua in Davania. Players would have giant monsters as PCs, who pummel each other and wreak destruction on the landscape as they battle. There'd be a Godzilla-style magical mutation monster creation rules, and as PCs advanced, they'd gain more and more weird and terrible powers. Even though some of the races (or "classes" in the OD&D version) would be mindless brutes, it wouldn't matter, since (like the Dragons and Giants CCs) this would be a sort of "mini-game" separate from regular D&D adventuring. Maybe the Earthshakers of the gnomes of Davania could be included too, so that we could have giant mechs in the mix too.

Also, Trollhattan in Alphatia would lend itself to inclusion in some CC, being that the place is a kind of "monster mash".

Travis
JohnBiles
05-05-08, 12:41 AM Even if you are getting carried away, I like it.

I especially like the idea of the Nightmare Dimension CC: Besides the races that are already associated with the ND (the Diaboli and Malfera) it could include the various intelligent Aberrations of Mystara such as the Kopru and Beholders, and so would be a Mystara-specific version of 3e's Lords of Madness (which had character classes for Aberrations). And...there'd be a world map of the bizarro "Nightmare Mystara". Aratsym(?)* might perhaps be a cube-shaped planet, and would be mapped using garish (purple, green, and orange) GAZ-style hexes. The map would show the bounds of the various regions of Aratsym (such as Nightmare equivalents of the KW and SC) and dominions (the various countries of the Nightmare races). Most countries would be Diaboli since they are the "humans" of Aratsym. *(The backwards name is inspired by how "Bizarro Earth" from DC comics is also known as "Htrae")

I would think Aratsym would be where the 'normal' world is on the inside and the outside is used as the museum for dead cultures :)
Rhialto
05-05-08, 03:18 AM I would think Aratsym would be where the 'normal' world is on the inside and the outside is used as the museum for dead cultures :)

Maybe the main part of Aratsym is inside a hollow cube?
TraverseTravis
05-05-08, 02:38 PM Whoops, it seems I've participated in hi-jacking a thread. Sorry! The "Denizens of Nightmare" thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=267878) touched on similar topics.

Well...er...what would a Nightmare Troglogdyte look like? :embarrass

Travis
Culture20
05-05-08, 06:12 PM Aren't the Troglodytes to the Lizardmen as Neanderthals are to modern Humans? (discounting that Troglodyte sometimes means "Caveman")

I always thought of Trogs as a branch of the Lizardman race that has evolved less over the years (leading to their near extermination or domination depending on the dominant species in the area).

If a Troglodyte city/state were to be found, it would probably be on a small island in the Hollow World.
Khuzd
05-06-08, 09:19 AM I bought (very cheap, only 2 euros) the Mongoose Publication for d20sytems "Slayers Guide to Troglodytes". I would like to briefly explain how they see troglodyte society, because I like their view. [A hard review of this product here: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2010740 ; the reviewer prefers an article in Dragon Magazine #235, november 1996]

I will also explain my view of troglodytes as a permanent threat to Shadowelf lands and, specially, frontier mines. I apologize for my bad written English.

TROGLODYTE ECOLOGY

Troglodytes need meat (and not vegetables). And they live underground. They go to the surface world -usually at night- to hunt and rob cattle, kill humans, etc... Food is the thing that makes trogs to grow... and find their place in a natural caste system.

"Baby" troglodites are four-legged small lizards, with only animal intelligence, always hungry for meat. (Adventurers would think they are pet animals). Female troglodytes are nearly animal intelligence; they simply breed and eat (and bite you if you are a nearby adventurer) and simply obey males. A baby can grow to adolescent size in half a year (with plenty of meat) or in a year or two (with a poor diet). If adventurers kill a troglodyte clan but females and eggs are not destroyed, you can have another horde in the field next year.

Adolescent troglodytes are the troglodyte of OD&D rulebooks: semi-intelligent, helding clubs and sometimes rough jabalins. Leaders control them by scent, giving them orders in battle that those semi-brutes always obey; so adventurers are astonished to see these wild lizards fighting coordinately, fearlessly, in a cold, effective way.

Adult troglodytes are not frecuent in small, primitive, raiding wilderness clans: only those troglodytes who eat a lot of meat can grow to these level. May be in a "primitive wilderness clan" they are 10-20%. They are as intelligent as silly humans.

Some of them can be "lizard riders", and ride giant lizards and fight with long charging lances, frecuently with a "Giant Lizard Empathy" skill. Leaders can communicate with adults by scent and words, and they can obey... or not.

Some become more intelligent and become crafters and artisans, maybe keeping the secrets of fire and makings weapons. They use adolescents as cannon-fodder.

And some grow even older and wiser and become leaders and wiccas and shamans(greats amounts of meat are needed for this). In small clans they are really infrequent, and themselves kill other growing males in order to keep their position. But given enough food and some upper reason to organize their society, such as religion, or under the guidance of a dark Inmortal or other races, intelligent leaders and spellcasting troglodytes can progress over the horde to a more complete society.

[For level progression of the troglodyte I would recommend using the gnoll or hobgoblin advancing rate, HDs, etc... of "The Orcs of Thar" GAZ... unfortunately I lost the Player Rulesbook!!!!]. Anybody could help and write a Troglodyte XP Progression Table for OD&D? -We should have in mind the odor scent hability, infravision and chamaleonic special skills-]

TROGLODYTES UNDER THE KNOW WORLD

Troglodites are permanent enemies of Shadowelves and they plague many areas in the underground world. They can be are a more serious menace than humanoids, especially in the southern caverns under Darokin and Cruth Mountains, where shadowelves dwell only in a few mining settlements and troglodite clans are many, ruthless and always hungry.

Let's us comment some areas depicted in the Shadowelfs territories map:
http://www.pandius.com/gaz13-shadow-elves-8.png

- Dessanis Crests and Grunelgard Woods (under Ethengar- Darokinian OrcMountains frontier); are home to many different clans; the clans in Grunelgard have good hunting grounds (also in the grasslands, full of small moss-eating creatures to hunt), so they have more leaders, shamans and wiccas.

- Marches of Caetel (a non populated mining area under Taijit lands in Ethengar); has some clans, that often attack shadowelf mining caravans. Some have tried to rob cattle to Ethengarians at night but with bad fortune.

-Mylandiel Hills: here there are lots of active clans, who enjoy attacking surface world, in the forested hills south of Akorros and other areas of Darokin. Also they keep very busy the Shadowelf garrison at Durfin's Belfry Tower.

-Trail of Galadria is the underground base for some troglodyte clans that plague the frontier hills of Atruaghin Clans and sometimes clash with the Children of the Tiger warriors.

MINING SOUTH

- All the southern mining caverns are a plague of lots of primitive trog clans; the mining enclaves of Larith Shafts, Shelinsan Quariies and Dorgaer Quarries have to protect themselves against trog attacks, with small garrisons and active militia service; Balthys is a fortified shadowelf village that supplies food for these mining settlements and is the door to Darokin City, where shadowelves agents obtain valuable goods and information about all known Mystara countries. Balthys officials try to protect the farms, and forests, but broken terrain is trog-land. Well armed caravans are needed to communicate the different mining settlements and Balthys. This is the "Far South" frontier for the hardest shadowelf pioneers.

- Dalial Cave and Eisunrath Cave are also full of troglodyte clans; there is a nutritive moss that many small creeping creatures eat (the underworld equivalent to fast breeding rabbits); so troglodytes have enough food to grow in numbers but not in culture; when there are too many of youngsters and warriors (usually once or twice a year), the leaders assemble a horde of 200 or 300 and try to go to Elmglow Forest. So far, the garrison at Pillar of Mellawae has prevented it and barred all troglodyte presence north of Gylfin River

-Dannadare Hills and Adriarii Peaks (a big mountain area under Cruth Mountains) are full with small clans, who plague the shadowelf mining settlements; some of them have learned to go up to surface world to attack human caravans in the Darokin-Selenica route.

A GREAT TROGLODYTE SECRET CITY? :b:

Why are there Shadowelf fortifications at Darkleaf Bastion and Desrii Castle (under Blackhill Principality in Glantri)? The answers is that there are lots of troglodytes in this underground frontier. Lots and organized.

Some sages say that Lake Caerinyl (under Touraine-Les Hiboux in Glantri) is really plenty of fish and troglodytes have been able to raise here somewhat of a civilization or federation of clans, with intelligent leaders and a council of dark shamans; interrogated prisoners seen to confirm this.

But other sages suspect that up river Lethowan (north, out of map) there is a great troglodyte city, with a great centralized government and that Lake Caerinyl is but an outpost.

Anyway, these troglodytes are older, bigger and more intelligent than average. They have iron weapons, mainly tridents, spears, shortswords, warhammers. Some of the leaders use metal armor and shields. And -very strange for troglodytes- many of them use bows and arrows. Active shamans and wiccas are often found in war parties.

It seems they have a complete control of Lethowan River -they use canoes and small boats- and a strong permanent military presence at Oakstalk Woods. Oakstalk is a gloomy, dense, dark fungi forest, an usual battlefield (no one's land) of Shadowelves and highly organized troglodytes.

Shadowelves are really worried about this. Troglodytes are a perfect caste system. Given enough food and organization, troglodytes grow in intelligence and technology. Could Caerynil shamans or leaders send missionaries to the southern caverns and release a coordinated attack from north and south. Could they ally with Brokenlander humanoids?

And how can elves know for sure that these intelligent troglodytes are not controlled by some other more evil, more intelligent race or agents?
Hugin
05-06-08, 09:37 AM And how can elves know for sure that these intelligent troglodytes are not controlled by some other more evil, more intelligent race or agents?
Or if they've been affected by the radiance! :plotting:
Khuzd
05-06-08, 09:48 AM Originally Posted by Khuzd
And how can elves know for sure that these intelligent troglodytes are not controlled by some other more evil, more intelligent race or agents?

Or if they've been affected by the radiance!

Oh. Well, yes. Oh. :eek:

Highly magical and intelligent and civilized troglodytes under Glantri countryside? It sound's terrific. An unsuspected danger both for Glantri and for Shadowelves.

The Golden Khan of Ethengar would pay greatly for this information!!!!

If somebody designs OD&D (Gaz-like) statistics for Troglodytes, he should design also the effects of the Radiance. A new sub-race? Spellcasters are no longer required WIS13 and INT14 and limited to low-levels?

It seems very, very interesting to me.
Hugin
05-06-08, 11:05 AM Oh. Well, yes. Oh. :eek:

Highly magical and intelligent and civilized troglodytes under Glantri countryside? It sound's terrific. An unsuspected danger both for Glantri and for Shadowelves.
What if they formed their own traditions and understanding of 'soul crystals' and Troglodyte shamans use those in their spellcasting? Troglodytes could have their own unique twist on the radiance and soul crytals.

Spellcasters are no longer required WIS13 and INT14 and limited to low-levels?
Perhaps that's why they need the crystals; they somehow become a substitute for the WIS and INT requirements?

It seems very, very interesting to me.
Agreed, quite interesting!
Extempus
05-28-08, 03:00 AM There was a troglodyte empire in the Amedio Jungle on Oerth for some 700 or so years, from before -2400 to about -1700 CY. There was also a race similar to bullywugs that coexisted with them (they probably had their own civilization), and the d'kana (dakons) had an empire after them from -1600 to -1200 CY (The Scarlet Brotherhood, p. 62).

Metron of Urnst http://forums.gleemax.com/images/avatars/TSR-Miles.jpg

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
havard 04-29-08, 01:38 AM	Why don't the Trogolodytes have their own nation etc? Are they the forgotten race? Or were they simply postponed for "PC8 - Realms of the Reptile Folk" detailing Trogolodytes, Lizardmen, Gatormen, Caymen, Frogmen, Newtlings, Tortles, Snappers, Chameleon Men and Sis'thiks. Any ideas for the Trogolodytes or any of the other reptile races for that matter? Havard
Lo_Zompatore 04-29-08, 03:12 AM	IIRC the Amalur Lowlands in western Davania (see "Davania" entry in PWAII and PWAIII for details) do roughly describe a troglodyte society. Or are they simly lizard men?
Cthulhudrew 04-29-08, 10:46 AM	Or were they simply postponed for "PC8 - Realms of the Reptile Folk" detailing Trogolodytes, Lizardmen, Gatormen, Caymen, Frogmen, Newtlings, Tortles, Snappers, Chameleon Men and Sis'thiks. PC8? What were PC 5, 6, and 7? :) (I'd guess one would be undead, one maybe "Furries"- rakasta, lupins, etc., but what about the third?)
Rhialto 04-29-08, 02:50 PM	PC8? What were PC 5, 6, and 7? :) (I'd guess one would be undead, one maybe "Furries"- rakasta, lupins, etc., but what about the third?) Dragons as PCs? I recall there was a Bruce Heard dragon magazine article detailing some funky rules for dragons once.
havard 04-29-08, 03:43 PM	IIRC the Amalur Lowlands in western Davania (see "Davania" entry in PWAII and PWAIII for details) do roughly describe a troglodyte society. Or are they simly lizard men? Yes, you are right! The Amaluri are mainly tribes of "advanced lizardmen" (whatever that means), but these also have enslaved Trogolodytes working for them. Well spotted. This can be tied nicely in with Mishler's Serpentine Empire btw. Another good place for Trogolodytes would be the Shadowdeep I suppose, as these are usually cave dwelling people. Cthulhudrew, I guess I threw out 8 as just a random number, but I agree Undead and Furries would likely be first. Rhialto is on the right track with Dragons I think; it should be something ala Council of Wyrms. Then Giants should also have their own PC book, even if Sea Giants have already been introduced. To summarize: PC 5: Undead (with details on the Malpheggi) PC 6: "Furries" (Perhaps with Patera?) PC 7: Dragons (with details on the Wyrmsteeth region) PC 8: Giants (with details on the Altan Tepes mountains) PC 9: Lizardfolk (Savage Coast) PC 10: Elementals PC 11: Living constructs PC 12: Nightmare Races I'm getting carried away again aren't I? :embarrass Havard
Hugin 05-02-08, 03:33 PM	I've always wondered, are Troglodytes the same as the Lizard-Men?
Cthulhudrew 05-02-08, 06:17 PM	I've always wondered, are Troglodytes the same as the Lizard-Men? No. They're similar, but a different race (or species, at any rate). Lizard Men are basically just humanoid lizards, while Troglodytes are basically humanoid chameleons (with an additional "stink gland" ability). They are (or should be) very closely related, though.
TraverseTravis 05-03-08, 04:10 PM	Cthulhudrew, I guess I threw out 8 as just a random number, but I agree Undead and Furries would likely be first. Rhialto is on the right track with Dragons I think; it should be something ala Council of Wyrms. Then Giants should also have their own PC book, even if Sea Giants have already been introduced. To summarize: PC 5: Undead (with details on the Malpheggi) PC 6: "Furries" (Perhaps with Patera?) PC 7: Dragons (with details on the Wyrmsteeth region) PC 8: Giants (with details on the Altan Tepes mountains) PC 9: Lizardfolk (Savage Coast) PC 10: Elementals PC 11: Living constructs PC 12: Nightmare Races I'm getting carried away again aren't I? :embarrass Even if you are getting carried away, I like it. Some more ideas: These Creature Crucibles would be like Mystara-specific versions of 3e's Savage Species. They'd be released in both 4e and OD&D versions, with each 4e race being an OD&D class. For the Undead Creature Crucible, I suppose it would be a Mystara-specific version of 3e's Libris Mortis, which supported undead PCs. What races would be included? A few that come to mind: Nosferatus, Vampires, Liches, Arasheem (undead araneas), Ghosts, Wyrds (those undead elves), Banshees, Velyas (those underwater vampires), and one of the weirdest monsters in D&D, the Phygorax (an intelligent undead fish). Maybe Boldavia would be the sample country? Maybe there could be Velyas and Phygoraxes in the waters of Boldavia. I especially like the idea of the Nightmare Dimension CC: Besides the races that are already associated with the ND (the Diaboli and Malfera) it could include the various intelligent Aberrations of Mystara such as the Kopru and Beholders, and so would be a Mystara-specific version of 3e's Lords of Madness (which had character classes for Aberrations). And...there'd be a world map of the bizarro "Nightmare Mystara". Aratsym(?)* might perhaps be a cube-shaped planet, and would be mapped using garish (purple, green, and orange) GAZ-style hexes. The map would show the bounds of the various regions of Aratsym (such as Nightmare equivalents of the KW and SC) and dominions (the various countries of the Nightmare races). Most countries would be Diaboli since they are the "humans" of Aratsym. *(The backwards name is inspired by how "Bizarro Earth" from DC comics is also known as "Htrae") For the Elementals' CC: it could include Aerial Servants, Desert Ghosts, Anemos, Krysts, Helions, Hydraxes, Eolians, Erdeens, Pyrophors, Undines, Djinni, and Efreet. It'd be neat if this book revealed the four planet names and world maps for the four Elemental planets that co-exist with the Prime Planar world of Mystara/Urt, as described in the Immortals Rules' OD&D cosmology. Each world map would delineate the planets' regions and dominions. The maps would have their own weird hex-symbols specific to Elemental terrain. Could do a similar CC for the Spirit World. Another CC: GARGANTUA: Land of the Giant Monsters! could detail the dominion of the wizard Gargantua in Davania. Players would have giant monsters as PCs, who pummel each other and wreak destruction on the landscape as they battle. There'd be a Godzilla-style magical mutation monster creation rules, and as PCs advanced, they'd gain more and more weird and terrible powers. Even though some of the races (or "classes" in the OD&D version) would be mindless brutes, it wouldn't matter, since (like the Dragons and Giants CCs) this would be a sort of "mini-game" separate from regular D&D adventuring. Maybe the Earthshakers of the gnomes of Davania could be included too, so that we could have giant mechs in the mix too. Also, Trollhattan in Alphatia would lend itself to inclusion in some CC, being that the place is a kind of "monster mash". Travis
JohnBiles 05-05-08, 12:41 AM	Even if you are getting carried away, I like it. I especially like the idea of the Nightmare Dimension CC: Besides the races that are already associated with the ND (the Diaboli and Malfera) it could include the various intelligent Aberrations of Mystara such as the Kopru and Beholders, and so would be a Mystara-specific version of 3e's Lords of Madness (which had character classes for Aberrations). And...there'd be a world map of the bizarro "Nightmare Mystara". Aratsym(?)* might perhaps be a cube-shaped planet, and would be mapped using garish (purple, green, and orange) GAZ-style hexes. The map would show the bounds of the various regions of Aratsym (such as Nightmare equivalents of the KW and SC) and dominions (the various countries of the Nightmare races). Most countries would be Diaboli since they are the "humans" of Aratsym. *(The backwards name is inspired by how "Bizarro Earth" from DC comics is also known as "Htrae") I would think Aratsym would be where the 'normal' world is on the inside and the outside is used as the museum for dead cultures :)
Rhialto 05-05-08, 03:18 AM	I would think Aratsym would be where the 'normal' world is on the inside and the outside is used as the museum for dead cultures :) Maybe the main part of Aratsym is inside a hollow cube?
TraverseTravis 05-05-08, 02:38 PM	Whoops, it seems I've participated in hi-jacking a thread. Sorry! The "Denizens of Nightmare" thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=267878) touched on similar topics. Well...er...what would a Nightmare Troglogdyte look like? :embarrass Travis
Culture20 05-05-08, 06:12 PM	Aren't the Troglodytes to the Lizardmen as Neanderthals are to modern Humans? (discounting that Troglodyte sometimes means "Caveman") I always thought of Trogs as a branch of the Lizardman race that has evolved less over the years (leading to their near extermination or domination depending on the dominant species in the area). If a Troglodyte city/state were to be found, it would probably be on a small island in the Hollow World.
Khuzd 05-06-08, 09:19 AM	I bought (very cheap, only 2 euros) the Mongoose Publication for d20sytems "Slayers Guide to Troglodytes". I would like to briefly explain how they see troglodyte society, because I like their view. [A hard review of this product here: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2010740 ; the reviewer prefers an article in Dragon Magazine #235, november 1996] I will also explain my view of troglodytes as a permanent threat to Shadowelf lands and, specially, frontier mines. I apologize for my bad written English. TROGLODYTE ECOLOGY Troglodytes need meat (and not vegetables). And they live underground. They go to the surface world -usually at night- to hunt and rob cattle, kill humans, etc... Food is the thing that makes trogs to grow... and find their place in a natural caste system. "Baby" troglodites are four-legged small lizards, with only animal intelligence, always hungry for meat. (Adventurers would think they are pet animals). Female troglodytes are nearly animal intelligence; they simply breed and eat (and bite you if you are a nearby adventurer) and simply obey males. A baby can grow to adolescent size in half a year (with plenty of meat) or in a year or two (with a poor diet). If adventurers kill a troglodyte clan but females and eggs are not destroyed, you can have another horde in the field next year. Adolescent troglodytes are the troglodyte of OD&D rulebooks: semi-intelligent, helding clubs and sometimes rough jabalins. Leaders control them by scent, giving them orders in battle that those semi-brutes always obey; so adventurers are astonished to see these wild lizards fighting coordinately, fearlessly, in a cold, effective way. Adult troglodytes are not frecuent in small, primitive, raiding wilderness clans: only those troglodytes who eat a lot of meat can grow to these level. May be in a "primitive wilderness clan" they are 10-20%. They are as intelligent as silly humans. Some of them can be "lizard riders", and ride giant lizards and fight with long charging lances, frecuently with a "Giant Lizard Empathy" skill. Leaders can communicate with adults by scent and words, and they can obey... or not. Some become more intelligent and become crafters and artisans, maybe keeping the secrets of fire and makings weapons. They use adolescents as cannon-fodder. And some grow even older and wiser and become leaders and wiccas and shamans(greats amounts of meat are needed for this). In small clans they are really infrequent, and themselves kill other growing males in order to keep their position. But given enough food and some upper reason to organize their society, such as religion, or under the guidance of a dark Inmortal or other races, intelligent leaders and spellcasting troglodytes can progress over the horde to a more complete society. [For level progression of the troglodyte I would recommend using the gnoll or hobgoblin advancing rate, HDs, etc... of "The Orcs of Thar" GAZ... unfortunately I lost the Player Rulesbook!!!!]. Anybody could help and write a Troglodyte XP Progression Table for OD&D? -We should have in mind the odor scent hability, infravision and chamaleonic special skills-] TROGLODYTES UNDER THE KNOW WORLD Troglodites are permanent enemies of Shadowelves and they plague many areas in the underground world. They can be are a more serious menace than humanoids, especially in the southern caverns under Darokin and Cruth Mountains, where shadowelves dwell only in a few mining settlements and troglodite clans are many, ruthless and always hungry. Let's us comment some areas depicted in the Shadowelfs territories map: http://www.pandius.com/gaz13-shadow-elves-8.png - Dessanis Crests and Grunelgard Woods (under Ethengar- Darokinian OrcMountains frontier); are home to many different clans; the clans in Grunelgard have good hunting grounds (also in the grasslands, full of small moss-eating creatures to hunt), so they have more leaders, shamans and wiccas. - Marches of Caetel (a non populated mining area under Taijit lands in Ethengar); has some clans, that often attack shadowelf mining caravans. Some have tried to rob cattle to Ethengarians at night but with bad fortune. -Mylandiel Hills: here there are lots of active clans, who enjoy attacking surface world, in the forested hills south of Akorros and other areas of Darokin. Also they keep very busy the Shadowelf garrison at Durfin's Belfry Tower. -Trail of Galadria is the underground base for some troglodyte clans that plague the frontier hills of Atruaghin Clans and sometimes clash with the Children of the Tiger warriors. MINING SOUTH - All the southern mining caverns are a plague of lots of primitive trog clans; the mining enclaves of Larith Shafts, Shelinsan Quariies and Dorgaer Quarries have to protect themselves against trog attacks, with small garrisons and active militia service; Balthys is a fortified shadowelf village that supplies food for these mining settlements and is the door to Darokin City, where shadowelves agents obtain valuable goods and information about all known Mystara countries. Balthys officials try to protect the farms, and forests, but broken terrain is trog-land. Well armed caravans are needed to communicate the different mining settlements and Balthys. This is the "Far South" frontier for the hardest shadowelf pioneers. - Dalial Cave and Eisunrath Cave are also full of troglodyte clans; there is a nutritive moss that many small creeping creatures eat (the underworld equivalent to fast breeding rabbits); so troglodytes have enough food to grow in numbers but not in culture; when there are too many of youngsters and warriors (usually once or twice a year), the leaders assemble a horde of 200 or 300 and try to go to Elmglow Forest. So far, the garrison at Pillar of Mellawae has prevented it and barred all troglodyte presence north of Gylfin River -Dannadare Hills and Adriarii Peaks (a big mountain area under Cruth Mountains) are full with small clans, who plague the shadowelf mining settlements; some of them have learned to go up to surface world to attack human caravans in the Darokin-Selenica route. A GREAT TROGLODYTE SECRET CITY? :b: Why are there Shadowelf fortifications at Darkleaf Bastion and Desrii Castle (under Blackhill Principality in Glantri)? The answers is that there are lots of troglodytes in this underground frontier. Lots and organized. Some sages say that Lake Caerinyl (under Touraine-Les Hiboux in Glantri) is really plenty of fish and troglodytes have been able to raise here somewhat of a civilization or federation of clans, with intelligent leaders and a council of dark shamans; interrogated prisoners seen to confirm this. But other sages suspect that up river Lethowan (north, out of map) there is a great troglodyte city, with a great centralized government and that Lake Caerinyl is but an outpost. Anyway, these troglodytes are older, bigger and more intelligent than average. They have iron weapons, mainly tridents, spears, shortswords, warhammers. Some of the leaders use metal armor and shields. And -very strange for troglodytes- many of them use bows and arrows. Active shamans and wiccas are often found in war parties. It seems they have a complete control of Lethowan River -they use canoes and small boats- and a strong permanent military presence at Oakstalk Woods. Oakstalk is a gloomy, dense, dark fungi forest, an usual battlefield (no one's land) of Shadowelves and highly organized troglodytes. Shadowelves are really worried about this. Troglodytes are a perfect caste system. Given enough food and organization, troglodytes grow in intelligence and technology. Could Caerynil shamans or leaders send missionaries to the southern caverns and release a coordinated attack from north and south. Could they ally with Brokenlander humanoids? And how can elves know for sure that these intelligent troglodytes are not controlled by some other more evil, more intelligent race or agents?
Hugin 05-06-08, 09:37 AM	And how can elves know for sure that these intelligent troglodytes are not controlled by some other more evil, more intelligent race or agents? Or if they've been affected by the radiance! :plotting:
Khuzd 05-06-08, 09:48 AM	Originally Posted by Khuzd And how can elves know for sure that these intelligent troglodytes are not controlled by some other more evil, more intelligent race or agents? Or if they've been affected by the radiance! Oh. Well, yes. Oh. :eek: Highly magical and intelligent and civilized troglodytes under Glantri countryside? It sound's terrific. An unsuspected danger both for Glantri and for Shadowelves. The Golden Khan of Ethengar would pay greatly for this information!!!! If somebody designs OD&D (Gaz-like) statistics for Troglodytes, he should design also the effects of the Radiance. A new sub-race? Spellcasters are no longer required WIS13 and INT14 and limited to low-levels? It seems very, very interesting to me.
Hugin 05-06-08, 11:05 AM	Oh. Well, yes. Oh. :eek: Highly magical and intelligent and civilized troglodytes under Glantri countryside? It sound's terrific. An unsuspected danger both for Glantri and for Shadowelves. What if they formed their own traditions and understanding of 'soul crystals' and Troglodyte shamans use those in their spellcasting? Troglodytes could have their own unique twist on the radiance and soul crytals. Spellcasters are no longer required WIS13 and INT14 and limited to low-levels? Perhaps that's why they need the crystals; they somehow become a substitute for the WIS and INT requirements? It seems very, very interesting to me. Agreed, quite interesting!
Extempus 05-28-08, 03:00 AM	There was a troglodyte empire in the Amedio Jungle on Oerth for some 700 or so years, from before -2400 to about -1700 CY. There was also a race similar to bullywugs that coexisted with them (they probably had their own civilization), and the d'kana (dakons) had an empire after them from -1600 to -1200 CY (The Scarlet Brotherhood, p. 62). Metron of Urnst http://forums.gleemax.com/images/avatars/TSR-Miles.jpg